BF/hr rates advertised (because I'm a hard head)

OlJarhead · April 12, 2013, 04:40:23 PM

Ok So I was wondering today: how does WM or others determine the BF/HR rate of their machines?

If they base it on Pine that it's not gonna happen with Oak! lol....if it's Oak then pine will fly by...

How do they rate a machine? Anyone know?

pnyberg · April 12, 2013, 05:16:01 PM

I don't know specifics, but I'm sure those numbers are based on the most optimistic assumptions possible.

--Peter

Chuck White · April 12, 2013, 05:27:20 PM

Near perfect logs too!

ladylake · April 12, 2013, 05:48:51 PM

And 20 year olds that still have some energy. Steve

mesquite buckeye · April 12, 2013, 06:34:16 PM

You could ask them, but I think the numbers come from competitions. I don't think they go like that all day, every day. If I get more than 200 bd ft/day cutting mesquite, I'm happy. Sure would be a dream to do the printed numbers.

AdamT · April 12, 2013, 06:47:01 PM

I've often wondered the same thing and I'm glad you asked!

I can saw random 1x's at a faste rate than I can framing lumber of the same length and specie. Take it up to 8/4 (although rare for me) and well you get the idea, I can twice as fast as 1x.

I can smoke through 16-25" 12' logs. That's my sweet spot.

hamish · April 12, 2013, 08:27:51 PM

Dependant upon species and size of logs the advertised rates can go either way. Look at it as a guesstimate.
A well stacked and orientated log deck, an off bearer with some initiative and warm matter between there ears, makes a huge difference.

With uniform sized logs, at times I have found it beneficial to make cants out of them first then, reload then saw lumber. Trying to get every piece of useable wood out a log makes for a lot more cutting, positioning, etc....

Magicman · April 12, 2013, 08:52:24 PM

I read somewhere that that (Tom) is just a gee whiz figure showing the highest production possible. It is nothing that you could or would regularly do.

OlJarhead · April 12, 2013, 09:42:19 PM

Interesting posts.

Perhaps part of the issue is some of the rates I see posted by sawyers on websites as well. One guy says he mills 2000-3000bf/day. I'm assuming an 8hr day so that means he mills 250-375bf/hr with his LT40. If on the other hand he's only milling 6 hrs....well you can do the math.

I'm guessing that milling rates are based on one log milled flat out with no CANT and of course a softwood :P

After all, live sawing a nice big 185bf pine at 4/4 on my LT10 could easily be done 30 minutes which would mean I was milling at 370bf/hr.....

But no one counts that! lol

Seriously though, from my standpoint as a guy trying to get his business model right I'd think this is an important figure to know. At least know it well enough to predict possible earnings off of a job. For example if a customer tells you they want you to mill up 3000bf of Doug Fir they have stacked and ready how do you quote them if you don't know the milling rate you can produce at?

Personally I am learning to look at what will be milled first -- meaning if the logs are 150-190bf of lumber and if I know I can do one of those in 90 minutes or less then I can at least guesstimate that 10 of those will take me 15hrs to mill so if I'm milling at a $50/hr rate then I can tell the customer I'd be about $750 which, if I did my math right, works out to about $0.45/bf.

But anyway, I look at my little mill which is supposed to mill at 100bf/hr but last weekend I milled 98bf/hr sustained over 6.5hrs (not including the flitches which I have yet to edge - which means I really did more than that) and milled my last log at 135bf/hr rate (again not including the flitches). Seems Woodmizer determined it's rate based on a relative newby milling Pine! :D :P

thecfarm · April 12, 2013, 09:54:51 PM

On a manual mill I feel I can just about cut another log by the time I do the flitches. :D I find it alot easier to do the flitches after each log. That way there are just about the same size kinda and I can tell what to do and how to put each one onto the mill to get the most from it,while it is still fresh in my mind. I have sawed 2-3 logs and than go back and saw them. I just did not like it that way.

drobertson · April 12, 2013, 10:01:15 PM

I always figured it is better to speak to the horse first hand. This eliminates allot of jibber jabber, this said, the figures I last saw, wmz figures their numbers on logs 16" small end 16' long. Lots of blade time in these logs, which always boils down to more production. Keep your blade in the log! this is what makes bdft'g

WDH · April 12, 2013, 10:05:24 PM

Eric,

As one point of reference, on my 15 HP LT15 from 2001 to 2012, I averaged a little over 100 BF/engine running hour cutting 4/4 hardwood working alone. I have kept records on everything that I have sawn. All logs were 10' 6" or less (no real long stuff since I only had two bed sections with max cut length of 11'). I typically cut for max grade so that results in more cant turning, and is very time consuming. Edging is also a real time consumer and harder on the body.

I believe your numbers look OK for general sawing softwood with a mix of 1x and 2x. If you were cutting only 4/4 hardwood like oak, your production might be lower over the long term. I also believe that your hourly rate of $50 is the minimum you should charge, and with the manual mill and all the hard work, $.45/BF is more than fair to charge for you services. If others with bigger faster mills can do it for less, more power to them. Some people work too cheap, and I can see that you are really thinking this thing through and looking at facts and data.

I agree with Ray. If the flitches to be edged build up, they will kill you and make you go crazy :D.

justallan1 · April 12, 2013, 10:13:59 PM

I almost wish there was something like that for my mill.
Sunday I sawed just over 300 bf in about 4 hours. That was by myself, going to get the logs from where I had previously fell and prepped them each time, loading them and all. That's just under half of the 160 bf that the LT10 advertises, with what I would think would be ideal conditions, ideal logs, more than 1 person and at least 1 with some experience. :D
I do think anyone should really look at prep time very seriously, especially when bidding. Just because a mill can saw "X" amount of bf/hr certainly doesn't mean it's going to turn out that way.
Allan

OlJarhead · April 12, 2013, 10:34:11 PM

Oh I'd be surprised if I could mill hardwood at better then 50bf/hr frankly.

mesquite buckeye · April 13, 2013, 12:00:07 AM

Also think about what percentage of loss you get to rot pockets and other defects you have to trim off the finished board.

Takes me almost as long to do the edging and end trimming as it takes to mill the whole log.

losttheplot · April 13, 2013, 12:08:25 AM

I am pretty sure I average 100bdft per hour of working, cutting soft wood on my manual Norwood by myself.
If the logs are staged next to the mill.

Having a helper increases production, however, changing from 13hp to 20hp did not make a huge difference in total output.
Although it does make milling much more enjoyable.

I found experience (and the Forestry Forum) were the biggest boost to "production".

I like to edge the flitches as I go, when the cant is down to 6 or 8" I use it as a back stop to hold up the flitches. I find this easier and quicker than using the stops on the mill.

Your mill setup looks well thought out and I am sure, once you've got a few hours under your belt, the sawdust will be flying

I think sawmill manufactures calculate maximum output the same way as sears calculate the maximum horse power of their electric power tools.

Its the largest amount obtainable before catastrophic meltdown occurs smiley_tom_dizzy02

scully · April 13, 2013, 12:43:26 AM

After doing my first mill job I learned a few things ,one is a log book ! from now on I am going to record hour meter start and stop as well as scale BF from each log milled to keep a running tally ! I am one who needs a detailed list to keep track and my organizational skills suck ! That being said I find it challangeing to figure out my production rate . Obviously the mill one has is part of the equation as well as offbearer help etc ,but I like the comment about not working to cheap ! Your mill will make great lumbar and you should get payed for breakin your butt ! Not sure if this helps but I am on a sharp learning curve as well and it gets a tad confuseing to me at times !

OlJarhead · April 13, 2013, 01:16:34 AM

I use the following for my log:

Log # -- SE DIA -- Length -- INF BF Calc -- CANT Size -- Thickness/width of lumber -- total# produced -- Total BF

I then list flitches produced into lumber and any odd sizes produced if any. An example would be the following:

#6 in the batch we worked last Sat:
6 -- 15.25" -- 8' -- 75 -- 11.25x11.25 -- 1.75 -- 11.25 -- 5 -- 66bf
6 -- ditto -- ditto -- ditto -- ditto -- 2" -- 11.25 -- 1 -- 15bf
6 -- ditto -- ditto -- ditto -- ditto -- 0.5" -- 11.25 -- 1 -- 4bf
Total overall for the log = 85bf produced

Why the 2" piece? I was also making some 8/4 stuff for a porch I'm making, the 1.75 is also for that (different usage) and the 1/2 was just something I could get out of the log without wasting it -- I hate waste and I'll use that for trim later.

To be fair, when milling for myself I don't mill to dimensional sizes very often. I'd rather have a bunch of 2x10's or 2x12's that I can later rip to whatever I want then a bunch of 2x6's and be wishing for some 2x12's

I also record start and stop times on my sheet as well as break times -- basically a time card.

I use a spreadsheet that does all the calcs for me later so I don't concentrate on that until I enter it into the spreadsheet.

Also, I scale the logs first and label them when I do so I know which log I'm milling and what I should be able to get out of it. On my clipboard I have the INT 1/4 scale on the front and on the back I have the INT 1/4 scale plus 15% and a CANT size chart based on SE DIA size. That way I have a target when I'm milling and don't really need to think about it.

I also have an old log book from my military days that's a 'flight' log type binder (small cargo pocket size, rubberized pages etc) that I keep scales etc in so I have a reference in the truck too.

I like to go into the pile of logs knowing what I'm going to do ahead of time. Makes it easier to figure out what I should get etc

SwampDonkey · April 13, 2013, 06:26:43 AM

I look at those kind of things as a 'target' that may or may not be reached. One may want to see how close one can get to it or exceed it. Just depends on how efficient you become and how fussy you are on logs specs your sawing from. ;D

Same with forest harvesters. But, I would be looking at 3rd party time studies that organizations like FERIC used to do on machines coming on the market. They look at different real time conditions, not the optimum.

rooster 58 · April 13, 2013, 06:38:01 AM

Woodmizer has a video that explains their production rates. In the video they conducted tests with three mills. They used a 40 manual, 40 hd, and a 50.

They used different length logs and also different diameters. Yes, they used nice logs and probably had a great working environment, but i think they tried to be objective and fair in their testing.

As I've learned here, it's not all about the cutting rates, but your setup is even more important to production rates

MReinemann · April 13, 2013, 08:01:06 AM

Getting around 250bd/ft an hour with my 35hd working alone. Not sure what you guys are getting. I almost came close to the woodmizer number when cutting cants for crane mats.
-Matt

t f flippo · April 13, 2013, 06:06:05 PM

OL, Good question. I used to think about it a lot.My mill is "rated " at 2000bf a day.A different manufactor's ,with the same specs., rates theirs at 3000bf.The mill can saw more than I can.
I just need an average of what I can do if I'm doing custom for a customer.

Rooster, You're right.The more I think about setup the more bf I can produce.The biggest increase came when I built a 'dead' log deck....logs rolled right on the mill.Rollers.Can't have enough rollers.
I drag just about everything back and onto rollers.....ties to the left,pallet stock to the right.

It's not what I can saw in a day,it's the average for the week.4-8hrs on the edger and 6-8hrs bucking and stacking saw logs lowers my bf sawed real fast.

Thanks to All for the good comments.

Tc

OlJarhead · April 13, 2013, 08:31:38 PM

I can see having the logs all ready to load and at mill height helping a lot just as, I'm sure, having a forklift/tractor load the logs must also make a big difference.

Rollers on the deck that can allow a log to be more easily moved must be helpful too.

t f flippo · April 13, 2013, 09:00:22 PM

OL, I've been geting my rollers at steel salvage yards or auctions.Couple years ago they were $20-25.The last I bought were $40 -50 a piece 24" x 10' Still worth the money for what they do.Then I make wood frames/legs the same hgt as the mill,edger,ect.

My 'dead' log deck I built same hgt as the mill bed. Used 30" butt cuts,knotched for 4" x 12" rails.
Good logs I can roll by hand/cant hook,bad logs are 'delivered' forklift direct.I can still use my hydr.
logloader for big fletch slabs and big cant resaws. Will try n get some pics for you.

Tc

Bandmill Bandit · April 13, 2013, 09:17:41 PM

There are so many variables that go into this number that it is hard to try and spike it to one number.

With my modified LT40 I can go any where from under a 100bf/hr to over a 1000. On Thursday I did just over 800BF In 70 minutes sawing 6"x8"x14' out of logs so evenly sized and I was getting 2 of them out of the log in 5 cuts. Got 3 out of 2 of the logs. And I was alone to boot cutting pine.

With a good helper I know I can push that well over the 1000BF hour. If I start to cut so I take out the available 2nd cut slabs it will drop even with good help.

Sustainable rate on this job I think is going to be in the range of 700.
All I do is cut and stack 6x8x 12, 14, 16 and 3x10 x 12, 14, 16. I do not load the roll way, remove any of the waste or finished material. My job is to keep the band In the log. I like it a lot.