Barber Chair Take Away...

[DanG]

DL, bore cutting isn't as hard as it sounds.  I used it for a while in bucking big logs before I ever tried it for felling.  It is particularly handy when parting a windthrown log from its rootball.  Just place the tip where you want it to go in, at about a 45 degree angle to the desired plunge.  The bottom of the saw should be looking at the log.  You can begin to rotate the saw to perpindicular as soon as you are about 2 inches in.  It will go straight into the tree rather quickly.  I like to make my bore cut about halfway between the hinge and the holding wood where the old fashioned back cut would be, then work toward the hinge.  After establishing the hinge, I cut back toward the holding wood.  The really sweet thing about it is that you can take a good look at your hinge and make corrections while the tree is still stable.  You get to look at all your cuts from both sides, and in some cases even get a "do over" if one is really wonky.

Try it next time somebody gives you a big ol' windthrown pecan tree. ;)

[WDH]

Try it next time somebody gives you a big ol' windthrown pecan tree. ;)

I immediately saw sparks from the planer and jointer just thinking about that windthrown pecan :D.  Saws pretty good, but harder that DanG to joint and plane :. 

I have learned a lot from this thread.  Very good stuff.

[Dodgy Loner]

I agree.  I'll give the plunge cut some practice on downed logs and hopefully be safer next time I head to the wood with a chainsaw.

[Gary_C]

Kevin

Ever since I learned the bore cutting method, which I was taught in the MN Logger Education program with a video from the Game of Logging, I have never even considered the "cut straight in from the back" method. I have been there too many times trying to outrace the splitting with my saw and losing most of the time to ever go back to that method. Even though most of my cutting now is with the "automatic or manual button" method, I still have to deal with the big ones by hand. And this bore cutting or Game of Logging method is the best way to fell trees I have ever known.

I do not think we disagree on the best method and I also think these posts where we "nitpick" each others methods are very useful so that others will learn better ways of felling trees. I know this bore cutting method sounds difficult to those that have not been taught the method, and there are certainly some little tips ot tricks that one should know to use it properly.

To answer some questions:

The notch did also seem shallow and not wide enough at first to me. It is supposed to be about one third of the diameter of the tree deep which should give you enough width of hinge. You are supposed to make the vertical cut first and then the horizontal cut second. that way you can look down thru the top cut and watch for the teeth of the chain to break through so as to not over cut into the notch wood. The open angle of 60 to 75 degrees is to allow control of the direction of fall till the tree is almost down and then the hinge wood is broken just before the tree hits the ground.

On cutting the bore cut, as others have described start your cut behind the hinge with the saw almost parallel to the side of the tree with only the lower quarter of the tip touching the wood. Then as you cut a grove in the tree, slowly rotate the saw toward perpendicular and push the tip into the tree a ways behind the hinge. Then after the bar is through, cut back toward the hinge to establish a uniform thickness. If the bar is not long enough to cut all the way through, make a second cut from the other side. Try to keep the opposite side cuts at the same height, but if you are off slightly, it does not matter as long as all the vertical fibers are severed.

After the hinge is carefully established, cut toward the back leaving the last holding wood. Then set your wedges and make the final cut fron the back forward and watch for the tree to begin moving. If you cut through and the tree still stands, a few taps on the wedges should start the fall.

As best I remember, that is what I was taught. So feel free to "nitpick" away or ask more questions.  ;D  

[DanG]

When doing that final back cut on the holding wood, should you cut directly into the bore cut, or slightly above or below it?  It seems that this was discussed in a previous thread, but I can't remember how it went. ???

About how much holding wood do you normally leave?

[a old timberjack]

i am not gonna " nitpick" i was taught by the nhtoa timber council " northeast logger training " and the way gary explained is the exact way they tought it and that is how i do it myself everybody does something alittle different . i feel do what works as long it is safe and you are comfortable doing it. but i will say, some are better then others. but yes , you cannot beat that " manual or automatic " button...... :D

[Kevin]

This is a combined bore/ hinge bore on a Red Oak that was being cut because it was a hazard tree.
The wood went to fire wood.

boring

When boring use full throttle and a sharp chain starting the cut with the bottom of the bar tip.

I wouldn't dispute anything said about boring a leaning tree and everything said is what should have been done to prevent this from happening.
What happened to Warren's tree is what I'm focused on, this can also happen to a tree that has much of the canopy weight on the side of the intended lay.
You need to know what's going to happen before you start cutting.

Dang, the hinge wood will depend on the size of the tree and what you expect it to do for you.
Many guys will cut some of the hinge out to reduce fiber pull .

[Gary_C]

About how much holding wood do you normally leave?

I can't recall any rules stated for how much. Depending on the tree diameter and of course the soundness of the wood, I usually stop widening the bore cut when I have enough room to place the wedges. Just be careful to not leave only some of the butt flare wood. I have had trees that tear out the remaining root holding wood when I drove the wedges in, but that is OK. Just be prepared to retreat earlier.

I always try to cut the final cut straight into the bore cut,  not above or below. Many times on larger trees that are not strong leaners, they do not fall even after all the fibers are cut, and that is especially true when the opposite side cuts do not meet. However a few taps on the wedges will crack that final vertical wood to tip the tree.

[Larry]

DanG, I agree with Gary but might add couple of thoughts.  If you cut the holding wood above the bore cut there is a chance the tree can take the chainsaw for a ride.  I cut the holding wood even or a little below my bore cut.

Don't know how to answer your question about how much holding wood is enough.  It takes very little wood to hold a tree...but if the holding wood is not enough a big tree can lean just enough to pinch the bar if you don't have a wedge in on the heavy side.  For that reason, I sometimes leave a little extra holding wood.

[Gary_C]

One of my concerns with this method was the shallow notch. When you have a shallow notch, you have more of the weight of the tree behind the notch to "lift" off the stump rather than "falling" into the notch opening. With a tree that has a lean or more weight in the direction of the fall, it is not really a problem. However with a balanced tree, some wind against the fall direction, or back lean, it puts a lot more stress on your hinge and your wedges.

In the training, they do emphasize the importance of a properly formed hinge and to not overcut into the hinge wood. Also you have to be very aware of the dangers if you see or feel any hollow centers or rot in the tree. Plus a too thick hinge or improperly formed back side of the hinge can hold the tree from falling.

For all these reasons, I am very reluctant to cut the center of the hinge out to reduce the chances of any fiber pull. I think the potential hazards of weakining the hinge far outweight the benefits of absolutely no fiber pull. From what I see, the hinge breaking is due to bending rather than pulling.

[beenthere]

Good discussion, I think.
There are guidelines (Based on tree diameter at stump) for the depth of notch and the hinge thickness, taught by the GOL. At the moment, don't have them, but they have been posted on the forum. Will look. 

[OneWithWood]

In another thread a few years ago I discussed what happened when I cut a heavy leaning maple of about 22"dbh.  I thought I did everything as I was taught in the GOL curriculum.  I made my notch so the tree would fall in the direction of the lean.  When I did the bore cut I came too close to the hinge and made it a tad too narrow.  The tree promptly compressed the hinge and pinched my saw.  I had to finish the cut with a second saw by boring in just above the pinched bar (I removed the motor).  I then proceeded to cut to the back from within.  The cut would have ended by exiting a flare root.  I say would have because before the saw made it through the tree the root pulled out fibers were pulled and the saw and imbedded bar went sailing past my head.  When I stopped shaking enough to collect the pieces I took a good look at the stump.  I believe that had I made the back cut from the outside in after my second bore cut the tree would not have barberchaired sending equipment flying.  It also would have helped if I had inserted small wedges to support the compressed hinge.
I guess what I am trying to say is that cutting inside out after the bore cut works on well balanced trees but may not be the best thing to do with a leaner.  I don't fell enough trees to be proficient but I do learn from each and every one.
My next adventures will be falling trees that were used as turning trees during the last harvest a couple of years ago.  I expect that I will make heavy use of wedges, especially where the direction of fall dictates the hinge will have an end in the damaged wood where the tree was rubbed.  I look forward to discuusing the proper technique for falling big damaged trees with those of you who will be at the piggy roast  

[Ianab]

I have made the 'hinge to narrow' mistake too  :
Same thing.. the whole weight of the tree settles on your bar, and it's NOT coming out.
We took the power head off and used another saw to cut the holding wood, from the back(outside) a bit below the bore cut. The tree fell normally and the bar was just left sitting on the stump.

With leaning trees I allways cut the holding strap a few inches below the bore cut. The tension is going to tear out the last bit of the backstrap no matter how fast you cut it. Just seems more controlled when there is a bit more long grain area to snap off between the cuts rather than lots of random fibre pull when the 2 cuts are the same height. Cutting below makes it unlikely the log will try and grab your saw as it goes over. You can saw around the outside of the holding stap to reduce the chances that it will pull a section of root out with it. Leave the centre of the strap to last.

One thing you will notice different with this method on leaners, when you cut the back strap it will break with a loud crack and the tree will fall fast. You wont see the top slowly moving or the kerf starting to open. Thats your signal to start moving fast as well  :D

Depth of the scarf?
With a heavy leaner I usually just cut deep enough to form a decent hinge. It's usually quite a bit shallower than a conventional scarf but seems to work fine.

Cheers

Ian

[Warren]

Quick update.  I used the wedges on a couple trees per Gary's pix and everything seemed to work pretty well.  Actually managed to (intentionally) pitch one tree about 45 degrees from the apparent direction of lean. 

Kevin, your comment about looking at the canopy clicked for me.  The tree I barber chaired had the majority of the canopy on the lean side due to an opening in the surrounding  canopy.  I noticed that fact beforehand, but never stopped to think about the impact it would have on felling the tree.

I checked into GOL training last year, but could not find anything in the KY/OH/IN area.  If any members are aware of upcoming training in this area, please let me know.

Warren

[sawguy21]

For all these reasons, I am very reluctant to cut the center of the hinge out to reduce the chances of any fiber pull. I think the potential hazards of weakining the hinge far outweight the benefits of absolutely no fiber pull. From what I see, the hinge breaking is due to bending rather than pulling.

I have seen fallers cut a 'window' in the hinge when the bar is not long enough to have the bore cuts meet. Would notching the sides of the tree be a safer method?

[OneWithWood]

Warren, keep an eye on this site

http://www.ihla.org/

The next Cutter training in Indiana will be posted on the site as IHLA sponsors the training.  It is usually held in Morgan-Monroe State Forest which is about 15 miles northeast of Bloomington, IN.  If you should attend a course let me know.  I am just a few miles from Morgan-Monroe.

[beenthere]

I ran across my GOL (Game of Logging) crib sheet, that has the hinge length and width recommendations:

Length:  minimum of 80% of dbh (says dbh but suspect it is diameter of tree at cut).
Width: maximum of 10% of dbh.

So 20 inch diam, cut the notch to at least 16"
                          and the width of the hinge would be no more than 2" (and parallel the full length)

The hinge is one of the "Felling Five", they being:
1. Hazards (observe what they are and plan how to avoid).
2. Lean or crown weight distribution - calculate forward, back, left, or right lean and weight.
3. Escape route - plan it ahead of cutting, and clear it out.
4. Hinge. Calculate and plan it
5. Cutting plan - visualize the notch, and subsequent cuts, be they plunge or back cut, and wedge placement.

[rebocardo]

On leaners or other trees where the placement of everything is critical, I mark the notch, hinge, and backcut with crayon or orange spray paint.  That way I don't go further then I really wanted to and it helps keep the saw level when cutting on unlevel ground.

> and someone pulling too soon, or too late, just seems to lead to additional problems

Yep, this is what happens when someone pulls too late:



Note to helper: When I said as soon as the tree starts to fall, pull, I meant start pulling as soon as the tree started to tip so it wouldn't fall on the deadman anchor (my van). Not after it was already on the ground.

I guess my little lesson on the law of gravity and how the top will hit the ground in less then 2-3 seconds and you can't outrun a falling tree, 1/2 the way over, pulling with a backhoe, might need to be repeated.

[Tom]

Does it leak now?

[Furby]

 :D :D :D @ Tom!

[sawguy21]

 :D :D :D :D

[Dan_Shade]

I'm sure that's funnier to those of us who don't own the van!

I had a dead tree do that to my old GMC once during a storm!  i used a 2x4 and a hydraulic jack to press the dents out, replaced the windshield with a spare and drove it another year!

[theorm]

Does it leak now?

Tom,

There is no logic in the way the helper doesn't pull on time, it just doesn't hold water.........

:D :D :D :D :D Theo

[Kevin]

Gary, some of the hinge fibers will only bend and stay intact on an open face notch.
With the other notches the the fibers get pulled when the notch closes at the apex.

Sawguy, cutting or nipping into the side of the tree below the hinge will prevent barber chairing due to root pull.
The only reasons for boring a hinge should be to reduce the holding wood or prevent fiber pull from inside the tree which might devalue a good veneer or saw log.
If someone is using access through the hinge routinely to cut into the wood behind it then I would say they should be considering a longer bar.

One, I'll be looking forward to your presentation at the piggy fest.  8)

Hinge thickness and notch depth are general rules, they can be altered within reason to change the way the tree will react when felled.

[Jeff]

We have a very sick oak if ya'll want to get it down. ;D