Well guys I have a question about the motor in the new skidder. It is smoking a lot more then other 353 did? Here is what I know, when I first start is it smokes a bit what I think is more then normal. When giving it a little throttle it still smokes, then if I give it close to full throttle it clears up with little to no smoke. If I let off on the throttle it starts smoking again. It does not smell like oil burning and I have a dry air filter in it. No oil on end of blower housing. All the air and fuel filters are new. It seems like it is getting to much fuel at lower engine speeds. Could the injectors be a little out of time?
What is your coolant temp.running,if not getting up to running tempature in this weather could be [cold smoke].Is it a blue/white smoke?
did you run the skidder ever before this or has it been smoking like this seen you bought it ? Is it using any oil ? Plus I know my skidder smokes more in the cold weather than when its warmer out and another thing is , if the motor is not up to operating temp. it will smoke alot more in the cold . If not using oil and was like this from the start and motor seems to start and run well , maybe someone has been playing with the injectors and put a bigger size or 2 in it
Bluish white smoke I ran it for a good half hour to make sure it was up to temp didn't seem to change it.
I am by no means even close to being a mechanic or even a shade tree mechanic. But, it could be, that it still is not getting up to a normal running temp due to thermostat or something.
Once worked at a place where the maintenance supervisor would remove the thermostat from one of our vehicles instead of replacing it. No heat in days like this. Exhaust leaked into interior etc. Finally after some newer employees on our department got together and refused to drive it until exhaust leak was repaired and heat fixed finally something was done.
Things went on like you wouldn't believe. His brother was the janitorial supervisor. Refused to buy his employees rubber gloves to use to clean with. He would use the same little johnny mop to clean the unirals and comodes and then go clean the sinks with them. Said it did not matter the cleaner had disenfectant in it.
Is it using any oil ?
I'm not sure yet I've only run it for a total of about an hour around my place to learn the controls. It does leak a little out around the oil pan gasket
Valve guide seals or guides themselves are worn, either way thats my bet. You going to notice it more at higher oil pressure especially at start up before the machine is warmed up. I have a 353 in my forwarder, I figure 1/2 quart a day and thats average.
If the rack is set hot it will smoke blue fuel a little
I am not a big GM fan , haven't worked on them for 30 plus years, but sounds like an injector problem. I would work it, see if it clears up. Ed
Best is to put it in the woods and get it up to temp and see what happens then. See what the temp is with a temp gauge you can buy at the auto store to see if your temp gauge in the control panel is right. Mine smokes when its real cold a bit. you really have to run it under load and keep track of oil consumption. Good luck, is the motor sounding good with no skips logman.
David l
I would throw some ATF in the fuel tank and run her good and hard when you get to the woods to see if it clears up, could be a little coking or something on an injector, like DavidL says might clear up. The ATF seems to help a lot on the detroits, if the injectors are a little dirty.
sounds like one of two things not getting up to temp or they have bigger injectors n50s most have n45s or one more thing they my have the rack bumped up a little high my rack is a little high if you go up hill pulling the smoke is black
Run it, my 4-53 smoked for 11 yrs before it was rebuilt.It has 260 hrs and still smokes till I get it to 196 degs and pulling a hitch.Little blue smoke keeps the skeeters away ;D :D.
Well I don't know the water temp the gauge isn't working so I'll replace it, then go from there. I know it has howes in it, but not sure how old or what type of diesel? Their doesn't seem to be any skipping, step on the throttle and speeds right up no problem.
+1 on the ATF and yup, run her!
I already have howes in it, what is the ATF going to do over that? What do think the problem is? Dirty injector, improper timing?
I'd work it for a couple of hours before I started to worry too much. Was the machine sitting when you bought it? I am having a similar issue with my TJ, and I think I've narrowed it down to just not having proper winter fuel in it. Once it warms up all the smoke goes away.
Yes It has been sitting for awhile before I bought it. I'm going to replace the temp gauge, top off the engine oil and run it for a bit once the weather warms up. My other 353 never smoked at all, this one smokes a lot but not all the time. I'll take a pic of it idling so you can see the smoke color.
logman81
When I was logging full time I had 4 Detroit's on the go (2-53, 3-53, 4-53 and 6V-92), the shop foreman at the local Detroit dealer advised me that the best tonic was a quart of ATF in the tank at least once a month.
Detroit's like to be worked hard to get them up to operating temperature all that air blowing around inside tends to cool them off if they are not loaded up.
Mine smokes a little blue when its cold but clears up when she goes to work and yes
I have the larger injectors lots of power but she loves the fuel.
I hope this helps
Al
Al, what did ya have a 2-53 in?
ATF lubricates and cleans the injectors. this low sulfer fuel is hard on the injectors. ATF will not hurt a thing in any diesel. I have filled the filter full of it and saved a sticky injector that hadn't stuck yet. its good stuff for older engines boys.
Ya ok, I put a quart of ATF in it and filled the oil up. Seems most of the smoking is when it's cold and at lower rpm's, when running at higher rpm all most no smoke. Seems to have more power then my tf did?
could have bigger injectors or tuned better.
That could be I'm not sure.
treeslayer2003
The 2-53 was a power unit that I used to run my tag-a long slasher, I fed it with Drott 35 powered by a 4-53.
Al
Check air filter if it has been run with it dirty it can wash the ring out and will only smoke at lower rpms ,asit not burning the oil that it is dumped on the pistons
Air filter is brand new
Ok just watch the oil when you start running it . I ve got a loader at work will use about a gallon a day because they never checked air filter on it. Good thing we only use it maybe twice a month.
Ok so I worked the skidder for a couple hours today pulling firewood for the home. It's got me a little confused? It seems to smoke heavy when going down hills when it's on flat level ground or going up hill it doesn't smoke much at all? Checked the oil before running it and it was right at the mark on the dipstick. One other thing is it took about four try's to get it started this morning and that was in a warm building?
logman81
If I read this right it does not smoke under load on flat ground or uphill but only going down hill in which is not loaded it smokes. Does not use any motor oil but it was a bit cranky to start but has lots of power under load. Does it start right up once its be running? Mine can be cranky when it is cold but starts right up if I have the heat on.
One thought are you losing any antifreeze?
If not then it is probably injection timing/injector issue and for that you want a mechanic skilled in setting Detroit's up do not compromise here do your research and hire only the very best.
Hope this Helps
Al
From what I have gathered yes, just checked oil and antifreeze and both are at the same level before I started it this morning. I just went out to try and start it and fired right up instantly! Most of the smoke occurs when the engine is not under any load. It does a oil leak from the bottom of the engine could be oil pan gasket. I'm thinking it is injector problem?
meh, I say run her and keep eye on fluids. maybe not tuned exactly but them engines is nasty n smokey any how. sometimes they clear up with use. if she turns on fast n pulls good i'd run her a while n see what happens.
Quote from: logman81 on January 09, 2014, 01:12:22 PM
From what I have gathered yes, just checked oil and antifreeze and both are at the same level before I started it this morning. I just went out to try and start it and fired right up instantly! Most of the smoke occurs when the engine is not under any load. It does a oil leak from the bottom of the engine could be oil pan gasket. I'm thinking it is injector problem?
base gasket or air box drains?? air box drains should drip
I'm going to ask my mechanic and see if he knows what's causing it. The leak seems to coming from the oil pan area.
logman81, If it has the older cartridge filter system check the motor oil lines in and out on the filter base. I thought I had an oil pan issue and it was both of them loose. big wrenches and hard to get to. Clean that area up first and drop the pan to see where it is coming from. i have heard they use to have cork oil pan gaskets. Maybe it dried up and running it abit would help. Check your fluids and run it and weed out the bugs once and awhile.
David l
As David L said, check those lines for the remote oil filter. Mine chaffed thru, I thought it was the pan too. As far as smoke, mine was the same way. Id run it. Keep an eye on the fluids. If its a new motor the rings gotta seat in. Might even use a little oil till it does.
Ok I'll check them out, I'll Probaly just run it and see if it clears up.
if you have to change the injectors you DO NOT have to loosen the rack to change them its a little tricky but saves a boat load of time the guy that rebuilds detroits here showed me how to do it after you do it one time you will be able to do it with your eyes closed ;D
Ya u wouldn't do it I'd have a mechanic do it but thanks for the tip.
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Yup it's the oil pan gasket! No leak from the remote oil lines.
If the motors not misfiring or blowing white smoke or getting antifreeze in the oil or blowing the antifreeze out or blowing blue smoke all the time theres not much wrong with it. The only time my 3-53 didn't smoke is when i had number one diesel fuel in it. Like you all know this well kill a Detroit real fast, and if for some reason i had to run it, i added one quart of 30 weight non-detergent to every 10 gallons of fuel. If my Detroit didn't smoke i was concerned. In this -30 i mixed my fuel 50/50 with a little de-gel in it. Your temp should run 180 to 200 when pulling. This is a Detroit's sweet spot for power and fuel economy.
I would tighten the oil pan bolts a little and if it only leaked a quart or so a day i would run it until breakup. Hind site is always 20/20, i would run nothing but 40 weight full synthetic oil year round in a Detroit.
logman81, i would put the skidder to work and watch the fluids, if they stayed up i would worry about it.
Nice to hear from you lumberjack48!
Hey nice to here from you lumberjack48 missed you! I ordered the gasket already, simple enough job to fix it. As for the smoking I'm just going to run it and keep an eye on fluids maybe it is just a sticky or dirty injector and will clear up.
There!!! Nice to hear from you lumberjack48
bout time you showed up 48, stick around. we need your input!
Pan gasket can be fun to do in those. Did one in an early 70's 230. A whole lotta fun!
Ya this one doesn't seem to bad , drop the shield, drain oil and unbolt the pan and it will come right out. I tightened the bolts and still leaks but it slowed it down a little. So I'm going to put the shield back on and call it ready to go, I got wood to pull!
Lumberjack glad to see your back. Ill always enjoyed your stories and knowledge.
Logman my 440 deere done this one day last week. I know the Detroit is a way different breed of animal but it started smoking really bad. I changed the fuel filter thinking that might be it didn't help any. Well we ran the rest of the day and it finally cleared up on its own after a few hours of hard skidding. Good luck with your new machine.
Glad you are back Lumberjack48 I missed your posts!
Lumberjack 48 glad to see your back. Your knowledge is so helpful. Thank you for your posts. :) good luck logman81 with the skidder.
Quote from: logman81 on January 10, 2014, 09:27:09 AM
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Yup it's the oil pan gasket! No leak from the remote oil lines.
what kind of phone or cam do you have to take pics with they are clear ;D
Just a I phone. Thanks mark k I think the tj is going to work out good, should have bought one in the first place I like the setup of the cab.
Great to hear yer still upright LJ48!! Oh, and :new_year: I hope you had a good time with family over the holidays. LM81, they 'Jack looks like it'll be a real nice machine for you. Glad to hear your up and going again!
Mostly a "lurker" here but always enjoy Logman81 posts. Glad to hear from you.
Thanks madmurdock and justincase, I really appreciate every ones help and comments. I take some pics soon of it pulling wood.
Logman81, Bet you can't wait. Be safe. Start of my pine job that is now done.
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David L
Nice to see you sharing some of your accumulated Detroit knowledge LJ48! ;)
Ya can't wait, I ordering tire chains for it Monday and as soon as they get here and I put them on its heading out to finish my currant job. Mostly pulling the tops and pole wood . Going have some it truck to my place so I can sell it as seasoned wood next year and for our wood boiler, it's a hungry beast! Nice pics !
Well the tire chains are ordered be here in 7-10 days, their a little backed up with orders so that's why the longer wait. So in the mean time I ordered the oil pan gasket. I'll put that in and the block heater and then give the engine a paint touch up. Might as well do what I can while I'm waiting for the chains and it's in the shop.
I also pretty sure I have a bad injector, that is what the manual is suggesting the problem is for bluish/gray smoke. Payed better attention to to it and it does seem the sputter. Is it a big project to replace one? I'll Probably have a mechanic do it, but would be the average charge to replace it?
they are not hard at all you DO NOT have to loosen the rack to put them in takes me half hour or a little more to do all 3 you should put all 3 in it I have always done it like that its like putting in one new piston and rings and not doing the rest of them just my 3 cents
So it wouldn't take someone that knows what their doing very long to do it. I would replace all three but cost is a issue.
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Motor all clean with a fresh coat of paint.
Hey logman81, looks like you have a fine "beast of burden there". Its been quite a journey for you from ol bone to TJ ' thanks for including us,have learned a lot. Couple of thoughts,you have reached that point were "expectations meet reality" and looks like you will do just fine. Work her and once the coin starts back in things will seem so much better. Should plant a decent sized fire extinguisher by the door there somewhere. Wanted to mention that tree pusher idea the lads had ,well worth the 20 bucks. The 3'6" piece of I beam gives more room between tree and tire, not that I am getting bigger, ok maybe a tad, danG gumdrop cake. :D
If your going to have a mechanic come out, do it right Have him set the valves and check rpm, in other words make sure governor and all is set right. With everything set right, with 3 new injectors, she'll bark.
Your little bit of blue smoke could be from a worn valve guide or rubber caps hardened up letting oil down the valve steam, not big deal if it isn't a large amount of oil. If leaking to much oil, i believe it can burn a hole in top of the piston. But again a little smoke at startup is no big deal as long as it clears up.
You might as pull the hood and valve cover off, if your going though with this injector swamp. I'm going to sent a PM, could save you a lot of time.
Thanks lumberjack48, it is not a little blue smoke but a lot of smoke. Fills the building with smoke almost drives me out! It smells like un burnt diesel not at all like oil or anti freeze. When I drained the oil it didn't smell like diesel either. It does seem to sputter when giving it throttle and the smoke gets heavier. When giving it full throttle it clears up, when I let off a little it goes back to smoking but seems to clear up a bit to what is normal when it's warm but still smokes going down hill with no load on engine at less then full throttle. It seems to be a excessive fuel at lower rpm problem. I may just run it the way it is for a bit and get some money and then make the repair.
One other question I have is I got the new oil pan gasket today, when I opened the box their was two gaskets one was a cork gasket and the other was a paper one, sort of looks like a gig saw puzzle any one want to explain that one?
I have gotten the four piece gaskets that look like a puzzle for small block chevys back when I was building those but never got the cork and the 4 piece in the same box
Ya I'm not sure what one I'm suppose to use? The old one I took off was cork maybe the paper one makes it easier to put on and seals better?
A permanent fix for leaking pan gaskets...
clean both surfaces thoroughly
Throw away the gasket cement
Use the cork gasket, rub hi-temp silicone grease into both sides. Dow DC4
Fasten the gasket to the pan with cotton thread through the bolt holes
Use a torque wrench on the pan bolts. Do not over tighten. Tighter is not better.
The silicone grease will keep the gasket soft and pliable.
Yup got it figured out use the cork gasket. I'm going to use some rtv to sort of glue it to the pan then once that's set up put some on top of the gasket and put the pan back on should work.
The mechanic who replaced the pan gasket on my 353 used silicone on both sides off the cork gasket and when tightening up the pan the gasket moved and leaked. Sealant is Ok on one side of the gasket, when I redid it I sealed the cork gasket to the pan and let it dry before bolting it to the engine. I still have some oil that leaks around the pan bolts but not enough to justify redoing it. Before it just ran out. Evenly torqueing the bolts is key and don't overtighten, once the cork is deformed it won't come back like a neoprene gasket.
I'd take a look at PW's advice.
Logman, the rtv may work, but the grease is a lot better. The stuff comes in a toothpaste size tube, my choice is dow corning dc4. Make sure the pan surface is flat. Most likely it will be bowed between the bolt holes from over tightening. I learned this trick from an old aircraft mechanic. Airplane engines leak oil, his didn't ever. I rebuilt a couple of old vw beetle engines (they always leak) that way. They didn't leak. His explanation was thus. Hot engine block expands when hot, the shrinks when cold. On the other side of the gasket, the pan stay more or less constant. If the gasket is glued to both surfaces, it literally gets torn apart from the movement. Corked soaked in silicone grease will remain soft and pliable for decades. That dc4 melts at about 500 degrees...
Ya the guy at napa told me to use ultra black so I used that. Put a nice heavy coat on the oil pan and set the gasket on that. Let it set up then bolted the pan back up. Thanks for your help hopefully no leaks!
No more oil leak! Now there no leaks at all!
And now it's not smoking heavily anymore? All I did was change the oil pan gasket and put fresh oil in. Took it for a ride around my property and only a little smoke almost none, load or no load couldn't get it to smoke!
Oil could have been fuel diluted,my friend had a chipper with a four cylinder Cummins,was smoking like the devil and making oil after he had a injection pump put in,i pulled the injectors and had them tested one was shooting raw fuel no atomization at all,replaced injectors now no smoke,not making any oil,running great.Keep an eye on the oil.Not trying to scare you but if your shooting raw fuel into a cylinder will develop a hot spot, i've seen them burn a hole in the piston.
As I mentioned before when I drained the oil it didn't smell like diesel fuel. It must have been a sticking injector and finally freed up.
Did you add any ATF or anything to the fuel? I guess it makes sense that it could have just been a sticky injector that needed to be worked loose. Sitting doesn't usually help machinery.
Yes I did it probably helped, the temp was also warmer this week to. Hopefully it is fixed will have to see once I get the chance to run it more.
Hey guys still trying to figure out why its smoking. I just pulled a sample of fuel from the tank , pretty nasty looking it even smells a little off. Could the smoking be caused by old nasty fuel? This machine has been sitting for a few years with what was in the tank and I've been running it with what was in it when I bought it. I'll post a pic .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/23822/image%7E44.jpg) here it is nasty ! Be nice if that was the cause of the problem.
Seems fuel would be the first thing to check, and replace with fresh, on an engine that has been sitting for any length of time.
Now that gunk is throughout the entire fuel system.
Are your plans to eliminate that fuel as the cause of the problem?
I'm not sure if it is the cause or not but I don't think it's helping either.
That is some ugly fuel, LM81. I am sure it will go a long way to making the issues go a way once that fuel contamination is taken care of.
Ya some nasty stuff for sure !
Logman 81, Google up diesel cetane rating and unburned fuel due to poor ignition sounds like it cound'nt be helping That motor. Old fuel is made for brush fires.
David l
Ya that is what I think is the problem with to low of cetane .
I'd start with the fuel ;). Drain her out and change fuel filters (at least once) not sure if the 353s have a sediment bowl but if it does clean that too, good luck and I hope the smoke issue goes away.
I'd bet that was the problem. Hopefully it hasn't caused any other damage in the fuel system.
Detroit's are pretty much bullet proof though. :)
If I was you I would drain that tank and figure out a way to flush that tank out.... IMHO there is probably a layer of scum covering the whole inside of the tank... Now if this is the case picture what is happening in the rest of the fuel system.... It wouldn't take much of a piece of "stringy slimey goo" that is half loose inside a fuel line to block off the line enough under pressure to starve the system of fuel, hence your sputtering.... Old fuel is old fuel no matter which way you look at it. Look at what happens to gasoline that has sat for a couple of years in a steel tank out in the sun... The same can happen to diesel too especially if it had condensation in it prior to sitting. You have ran the machine and worked it which more than likely has stirred up this rotten fuel..... BTW does the exhaust smell foul compared to what a normal diesel exhaust smells like?
I bring up all this from an experience we had a few years back. We had purchased a Caterpillar D6C that had been sitting on the south side of stand of timber for several years. It was a mile or so trek for us to get to this machine without permission from a cagey ol neighbour that owned all the surrounding land.... We figured we could simply get the machine running enough to walk it out to the road where we would load onto lowbed. We carted a couple of jerry cans of fresh fuel and batteries and tools in with an atv and trailer... Needless to say long story short we ended up sucking the entire fuel system full of junk and had to replace the works... It took two of us over 3 days to get the machine to the lowbed. We used a lot of air in these 3 days to repeatedly blowing out the lines, what a PITA but the machine was worth it as it had LOW hours with an undercarriage with nearly 80% wear..... Brad.
I hope that's all it turns out to be . Yes the exhaust does have a abnormal smell and so does the fuel in the tank. I won't be able to get to it till next week as I have a guy maybe interested in buying it. If he doesn't buy it I'll drain the tank then unbolt it and flush it out and change filters. I think we're on the right track now!
Just a thought, If you want to sell it, I would spend the few hours it would take to flush it out before you had people come look at it. a good running engine makes for better sale
Quote from: EricR on January 31, 2014, 10:06:17 AM
Just a thought, If you want to sell it, I would spend the few hours it would take to flush it out before you had people come look at it. a good running engine makes for better sale
X1 The potential buyer(s) may be viewing this forum or have friends that are.
Al
Logman, get that brush fire going and feed it that fuel and a doughnut. ( used 15" car tire ). my neighbors love it when I burn brush.
David l
Ya I got a nice brush pile at the shop and I plan to drain out the old fuel and burn it.
Quote from: David-L on January 31, 2014, 03:57:49 PM
Logman, get that brush fire going and feed it that fuel and a doughnut. ( used 15" car tire ). my neighbors love it when I burn brush.
David l
The 285s off my Duramax work even better we use them and diesel to start our new years bonfire every year
It's all fixed! I drained the old nasty fuel out and changed both filters and put fresh fuel in the tank. I started it an it smoked for about a minute and then cleared right up. Took it for a half hour ride and boy what difference runs so much better and smoother. And now it smokes only a little. So glad that's what it turned out to be and not an injector problem.
logman81
I am very happy that you finally got the problem licked.
I can't remember where I saw the following "Buy Clean Fuel and Keep It Clean " or something to that effect but clean fuel eliminates all sorts of engine related problems.
Al
Some IH tractors have a decal that says that around the fuel cap, and I think I've seen some caps with that stamped right into it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/23822/image%7E45.jpg) this is where the old fuel went!
Will that gunk make it through the injectors? or does it hang up in the filters? Seems it must end up somewhere, at least the old that was still in the system between the tank that you cleaned out and the injectors. Just curious.
Glad it is running better. A good lesson for anyone trying to run an engine that has been setting around with old fuel in it.
The filters trapped all the junk, they weren't to bad though, lesson learned.
Wa-hoo, 8) .Now run it an git er done.
Good too hear you got it figured out!
Thanks guys it's good to see it running like it should.
This is a good lesson in assuming what should have been already checked when buying a machine. I have learned know to start real simple, don't go straight for the heart. :P This was a good question to fool us old loggers, we think to hard :D lg81 i feel like throwing a snowball at you :snowball:
I'm glad you found it, and hope it didn't hurt anything. Run some good raw number 2 fuel though it.
Ya it was just something I over looked but now I know start with the simple things. No harm done, it's the best running detroit that I've owned. Hoping to put it to work next week.