Sawing Black Oak?

[steveST]

I have an opportunity to get some nice black oak logs...

I have never sawed black (only red and white oak). What should I expect? Produce good lumber?

Thanks.

[Bibbyman]

We saw a good bit of black oak.  It saws about like red oak and will occasionally make a grade board or two you can slip in with your red oak grade lumber. Otherwise we saw black oak into blocking or farm construction lumber.  Other mills use it for pallet material and ties.

In our area, black oak has a lot of defect - grown over knots,  gray rotten spots,  bug holes,  mineral stain, etc.  They are an "invasion" tree and tend to grow fast in cut over areas and neglected fields.

[Brian_Bailey]

Bibbyman - Your description of black oak makes me want to get my hands on some  :D.

[Frickman]

Bibbyman's black oak sounds alot like ours. Only occasionally can you get a 1 common or better board off one. If you need some "rustic" oak its a great wood. Lots of small, interesting looking defects. It makes good horse stall lumber too.

[Bibbyman]

Brian,  you should be able find black oak in your own back yard.  It's found all across the eastern half of the US.

[Ron Wenrich]

It must depend on where it grows.  Our black oak is pretty nice.  Black oak growing in moist, well drained, deep soil tends to be the best.  Those that grow on drier, shallow soils won't have the same quality.  

You won't get as much grade as you do with red oak, but a good butt will yield pretty much upper quality wood.  You can't saw as far as you can with red oak before hitting knot defects.  We even sell black oak as veneer, on a regular basis.

The color will not be quite the same as red oak, but it gets sold as red oak.  There is more of a tendency for black oak to have what is referred to as mineral as well as shake.  If you're buying these logs, you can't spend the same amount as you can on red oak.  

[ohsoloco]

What about pin oak?  I know it's a type of red oak (and aren't all black oaks in the red oak family?)  I had a 26" dia pin oak butt log that didn't yield much nice lumber...and even that was kinda dark and blah looking.

[Frickman]

Pin oak makes great barn timbers. Just square it up to the size you want with the heart centered. The many small, tight knots make it difficult to split. Ron, you're right about the location of the tree affecting its quality. On the rocky, dry ridges the wood is usually shook and mineral stained. Down in the bottom land you'll find some decent logs. I sawed a butt log a week or two ago that looked fine but just fell apart when cut. The whole log went into the slab pile. If the log is just mineral without shake it makes pretty lumber. Some of the small cabinet shops seek it out for its streaked appearance.

Frickman

[Fla._Deadheader]

Isn't that the one that stinks??  We yousta call it "Pith Oak"

[ohsoloco]

Harold, I find it to be the most stinky of the oaks...or should I say the only oak I've come across so far that I don't like to smell when I'm sawing.   I know there are some oaks around here that we call "pith" oak, but I'm not sure if this is the species, but it sure does stink  :(

The pin oak that I cut up came from the front yard of a fraternity at Penn State.  It was struck by lightning before and had to come down.  There were quite a few large knots even in the butt log.   At first, the butt log looked nice and clear, but when I looked closer, I could see all the places where knots had been grown over.  Like I said, it didn't take too much sawing to get to the junk....most of it went to the pallet mill.  

[Frickman]

ohsoloco,

How much metal did you hit? If the tree was in front of a fraternity in town, you could probaby start a hardware store with all the nails from signs in it. Maybe even a beverage can or two. Could be that's why it smelled so bad.

The only wood I saw that doesn't smell good to me is red elm. What makes it worse is the trees are loaded with sap that gets everywhere. About the nicest smelling wood is northern red oak. I'd put sassafras right up there too.

Frickman

[ohsoloco]

Actually, I don't think I hit all that much metal when I milled it.  Maybe the gang saws at the pallet mill found some that I missed in those 5 1/2x6's  :-/   Metal in the log usually doesn't affect the smell in my opinion.   The worst logs I ever milled as far as metal in 'em was from a trailer park...full of 16 penny nails   >:(   Put on a new blade and "zip" hit another one.  Got so sick of hitting nails that I diced up the last log for firewood...and you guessed it, hit a framing nail with the chainsaw  :(   Red oak is nicer to smell than white oak (dry white oak in the shop is pretty potent).  Cherry and walnut are really nice to smell, too.   Larch smells sooo sweet when I cut it up  

[ohsoloco]

Frickman, are you saying the pin oak that you saw doesn't smell bad?   Maybe it's cuz the tree was struck by lightning and stood half dead for some time before being cut up.  That spruce that I milled up the other week that was struck by lightning last year smelled like pine-sol, and had those big white grubs chewin' through the stuff.  Dug into the rotten heart of a white pine with a chain mortiser..first the dark chips came out of the timber....then the smell of rotting apples.

[DanG]

Does smell have anything to do with color? : I'm thinkin' my favorite woods to smell are Red Cedar, Black Cherry, and Yeller Pine. ;D

[Brian_Bailey]

Bibbyman -  We have some real nice black oak growing in my neck of the woods.  Just like Ron described.  I haven't had any problems selling the lumber from it either @ red oak prices.  Most folks don't even know the difference between it and red oak until I point out the difference.

If the wood stinks ( rancid ) and it's a butt log, it is probably cause by bacteria.  Red Elm just plain stinks until it is made into something and a finish is put on it. Then it's just plain beautiful in IMO anyways  .

[Dugsaws]

I sold a black oak a couple years ago from about the highest point on our farm and the DanG thang was 18' long w/400 and some odd bdft in it and my buyer gave me veneer price for it at that time I was in shoch, but it was a nice log

[Bibbyman]

Arky sent me a picture about a month or so back of some black oak he was sawing.  I've lost the copy he sent me. Maybe he can find it and post it here.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  The tree we call black oak here in the Ozarks is crap.  It's limbs die in the tree and get very very hard and the hard red knots will kill a chain saw chain or a band.  It has lots of shake and a stress crack from top to bottom.  The tie guy will not buy it and the pallet guys do not like it at any price.  I do saw some for some farmers and most end up fussing about it as it just falls apart or warps so bad that they can not use it.  I have a guy who will have me saw it up so he can make shelves and stuff since he can get the logs for free.  Most here on the farm I ring them as I come across them and let the wood peckers have at em.
  The wood is pretty just will not stay together here.
ARKANSAWYER

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm strarting to wonder if we're all talking about the same tree.  What is known as black oak in these parts is Quercus velutina.  You can tell black oak by its yellow inner bark.  It is the only oak with a yellow inner bark.

If you drill into the bark with a pocket knife, you should be able to see the yellow.  If not, we're talking about 2 different trees.

Another stinky wood to saw is black gum or tupelo.  Other good smelling trees include sassafras and black birch.  

[Brian_Bailey]

I'm refering to Quercus velutina.  But I still like Bibbyman's description  :D.

[Bibbyman]

I'm sure we are talking about the same tree.  Region, disease exposure and growing conditions are the major differences.

We may have 1 out of a 1000 mature black oak that will be as good as any north hillside red oak.  But most of our black oak is found on rocky ridges that have been clear cut at least once.  They can't compete in established old growth forest.

They grow fast with lots of small limbs on the lower trunk that die and fall off leaving a grown over hard black knot - often accompanied by a pocket of gray rot.  

In mine and Arky's neck of the woods, the black oaks are being infested with the beetle of some kind that bores holes though out the tree.  I guess fungus follows as well as ants, etc.  I'm sure some of this accounts for the sour smell.

More on the bore

I walk around our woodlot each fall and look for woodpecker holes in the upper trunk of black oak.  It's a never fail indicator the tree is infested with bugs.  I cut the tree for firewood - trying to get a blocking log out of the butt cut if it's big enough.   Those I miss usually don't leaf out the next spring.

Deer enjoy the black oak acorns over that of the white oak's.

[woodmills1]

I have a lot of red, it is good very good.  only just a little white it is good.  then i have some either black or hybred ingrown oak.  Most of them are not good but once in 10 or so they are just as nice as can be, but they are not the same as my red.  As far as smell I think any can get the stinky cheese oak smell.  Dr. Gene from the other place has me convinced its a bacteria infestation.