I came across this definition of a thrown cord from the State of Maine Attorney General. Is there any other definitions for a thrown cord ???
§ 19.5. Firewood
Firewood is a substantial supplier of our energy needs. Mainers burn nearly one million cords of wood each year. A lot of people are buying wood, a lot of people are selling it, and a lot of buyers are filing complaints about those sales.
Maine law prohibits the use of confusing terms in the sale of firewood such as "rack," "pile" and "truckload" since such terms are undefined and subject to various meanings. Maine law does provide two definitions of a cord; one for a stacked cord, the other for a loose thrown cord.
A. Stacked Cord
A stacked or standard cord6 is a measure of wood, bark and air: 4 feet wide, 4 feet high and 8 feet long, or its equivalent, containing 128 cubic feet when the wood is ranked and well stowed. "Ranked and well stowed" means that pieces of wood are placed in a row, with individual pieces touching and parallel to each other, and stacked in a compact manner. Any voids that will accommodate a stick, log or bolt of average dimensions to those in that pile must be deducted from the measured volume.
B. Loose Thrown Cord
Maine law also defines a loose thrown cord7 as: "Fuel wood, when sold loose and not ranked and well stowed, shall be sold by the cubic foot or loose cord, unless other arrangements are made between the buyer and seller. When sold by the loose cord, the wood in any cord shall average either 12 inches, 16 inches, or 24 inches in length. When so sold, the volume of the cord shall be: a cord of wood 12 to 16 inches in length shall mean the amount of wood, bark and air contained in a space of 180 cubic feet; and a cord of wood 24 inches in length shall mean the amount of wood, bark and air contained in a space of 195 cubic feet."
Firewood dealers usually deliver loose thrown cords. The volume of a loose thrown cord can best be measured in a container, i.e., a truck. Once a loose thrown cord is stacked it should measure somewhere between 115 and 124 cubic feet per cord.
C. Written Receipts
Maine law requires firewood dealers to give you a receipt8 for any sale of more than $20. The receipt must include:
(1) Buyer's and seller's names and addresses;
(2) Date delivered;
(3) Quantity of wood delivered (and quantity upon which the price is determined if different from the amount delivered);
(4) Price (please note: sellers cannot misrepresent the price of the wood nor represent the price in any way that would mislead the buyer);9
(5) Description of wood (e.g., 50% red oak, rest mixed hardwood); and
(6) Statement of quality (e.g., dry or seasoned).
Insist upon a receipt. In case a dispute arises, it may be valuable evidence of what the dealer promised to deliver.
North Dakota
64-01-07. Standard measurement of wood. In all contracts for the sale of wood, theterm "cord" shall mean one hundred twenty-eight cubic feet [3.62 cubic meters] of wood, infour-foot [1.22-meter] lengths. If the sale is of "sawed wood", a cord shall mean one hundred tencubic feet [3.11 cubic meters] when ranked, or one hundred sixty cubic feet [4.53 cubic meters]when thrown irregularly or loosely into a conveyance for delivery to the purchaser. If the sale isof "sawed and split" wood, a cord shall mean one hundred twenty cubic feet [3.39 cubic meters]when ranked and one hundred seventy-five cubic feet [4.96 cubic meters] when thrownirregularly and loosely into a conveyance for delivery
Minnesota
What is a cord?
A cord has a specific legal definition in Minnesota:
One cord is 128 cubic feet in four foot lengths.
If the wood is sawed, a cord is 110 cubic feet when ranked, or 160 cubic feet when thrown loosely into a truck.
If the wood is sawed and split, a cord is 120 cubic feet when ranked, and 175 cubic feet when thrown loosely into a truck. (Minnesota Statutes, Section 239.33)
Must I buy my wood in cords?
No. You and the seller may enter into any agreement you choose, but be aware that words like truckload, face cord, rick, fireplace cord, or pile, have no legal definition. The Weights and Measures Division can not help you in a dispute if the wood is not sold by the cubic foot, the cubic meter, or the cord.
How do I calculate the number of cords I receive in a delivery?
If the wood is ranked, multiply the wood pile's height by its length and stick (piece) length (height x length x stick length) and divide by 110 if the wood is sawed, by 120 if the wood is sawed and split, and 128 in all other cases. Remember to make all your measurements in feet.
# cords of ranked sawed wood = (height x length x stick length)/110
# cords of ranked sawed and split wood = (height x length x stick width)/120
# cords of all other ranked wood = (height x length x stick width)/128
If the wood is loosely thrown into the back of a truck, measure the dimensions of the truck bed and the height of the wood in feet. Multiply the height of the wood by the length and width of the truck bed. Divide by 160 if the wood is sawed, or by 175 if the wood is sawed and split.
# cords of sawed wood loosely thrown into a truck = (height of wood x truck bed's length x truck bed's width)/160
# cords of sawed and split wood loosely thrown into a truck = (height of wood x truck bed's length x truck bed's width)/175
New Zeeland Ministry of Consumer Affairs
Made to measure – be informed when buying firewood
As the weather begins to get colder, our thoughts turn to winter preparation, in particular keeping warm! If you've got a fireplace or woodburner, firewood goes on the list of priorities.
When a cord is not a measurement
Recent experience tells us that people still think in "cords" when purchasing their firewood supply, but not many could tell you how big a cord actually is.
Firstly, a cord (equal to 3.62 cubic metres) is not a legal term of measurement. Just as you can't buy cloth by the yard, milk by the pint or fruit by the pound, nor can you buy firewood by the cord because it is not a metric quantity.
Secondly, when making any purchase, it's important to have an appreciation of the amount you should be receiving. It is likely you'll know roughly how much a metre of material is, what a litre of milk looks like and how many bananas you'll get for a kilogram. The same applies to firewood – to avoid getting ripped off, it pays to know approximately the amount you expect to be receiving for the price you're paying.
Legal measurement for firewood
Firewood can be sold either by volume – ie, cubic metres – or by description – eg, a truck load, a trailer load or sackful. It is accepted that firewood will be sold as a "thrown measure" – ie, as if it were thrown into a container, not as if it were stacked.
While firewood merchants are not required to sell wood by volume, those that do must use an approved measure. An approved measure could be a truck, trailer or bin that has been approved and verified as accurate by the Ministry of Consumer Affairs' Measurement and Product Safety Service (MAPSS). MAPSS' role includes ensuring that trade is conducted on the basis of fair and accurate measurement.
An approved measure for firewood will have on it a lead stamping plug imprinted with a Crown. It will also be marked with its volume in cubic metres, and an identification and certificate approval number. MAPSS can tell you the traders in your area that have a certificate of approval for their firewood measures (see contact details for MAPSS below).
When buying firewood by volume, the merchant should provide you with an invoice stating the true net weight or measure of the quantity delivered.
Tips to help you buy wise
Whether buying by weight or description, how will you know that you're getting a fair deal? MAPSS has the following advice.
Shop around to get a competitive price. Look in the Yellow Pages, local newspaper or community newspaper, and trade magazines for local firewood merchants and check out the going rate.
Ask friends for a recommendation of a reputable source.
If buying by volume, check that the merchant is MAPSS certified.
If buying by description, make sure you're happy with the quantity before committing to buy it. You may wish to see it first.
Ask about the condition of the firewood. Wood that is green or wet is poor quality for burning and will lose density (and therefore value) as it dries.
Remember that firewood is sold as a 'thrown measure' so will reduce by one-third in volume when it is stacked.
Of course you could always load your best guess of a cord of wood give the wood away and charge for loading and trucking ;)
Quote from: Sawyerfortyish on November 24, 2005, 08:41:17 AM
Of course you could always load your best guess of a cord of wood give the wood away and charge for loading and trucking ;)
8) 8) ;D ;)
I'm glad I don't live in those areas. If I was a consumer, I wouldn't know what the heck I had. But, for sure I'de feel cheeted because every load of wood would be different. I know that if you stack a pile of firewood 15 times it will always be different. But, I'm talking about a difference of 1/4 and 1/2 cord or more.
I don't know what the think of that thrown cord issue, but it's right up there with scaling logs using the small diameter I suppose. ;D
Actually in NZ case, they don't use imperial units and won't except them in commerce. Here in Canada we are also metric, but we except old imperial units. It's funny some mills buy by metric and some by old imperial. ::) The NZ wording would make you think a cord wasn't a volumetric measurement. ::)
What I find interesting is that in Maine it's legal if the thrown cord stacks up to between 115 and a 124 cubic feet. A cord is 128 cubic feet. The Maine code states that but it's fine if a thrown cord stacks up short ::) I don't want to stack wood to sell it. That adds a huge amount of labor to a firewood business.
I think some guys do a 'test'. They have a panel truck they throw stacked firewood into so they have a good feel for the capacity of the truck. If not they ask their buyers to let them know if they are short. Then they just cut, split and convey right into the truck with their processor after that. They usually top it slightly more than their test loads. I know the guys I buy from always ask me, "if the load is short let me know", type of thing. ;) The only folks that stack their firewood for sale don't deliver. Maybe I shouldn't say 'only', but they'de be insane otherwise. ;)
SwampDonkey nailed it right on the head, 'test' then a little extra
I never had any intention of stacking wood in the trailer for delivery ;) ;D It'll be thrown in :) The first load I run with the elevator I'll then stack. My trailer without side boards is 160 cubic with it's 240. I'll do a "test load"
The way I do it I have a wood bin I run my elevator to. It piles up then I load with a skidloader 7 rounded buckets in a 3/4 yard bucket scooped up makes my cord. Done between 250-300 cords (I lost track some place about a month ago) and no complaints of volume. I've done firewood like this for 16yrs. But every once in a while you get that guy that has nothing better to do than spend all day stacking one cord and will always complain. It's to long -to short- twisty- knotty-punky-wont burn -burns to fast thats the guy I give the wood to and charge for loading and trucking.
Father would just tell'm 'it'll make straight ashes' . If it's trouble burning seasononed wood it's often related to draft problems. Also, realize that maple does not start as easily as beech or yellow birch. That is well documented. I like to have some small stuff mixed in because it's ignites alot quicker. I have mostly maple and when I stick some well seasoned maple tops in on some very low coals that are almost gone, then put my bigger wood in on top, then open the draft , before I get upstairs I got a roaring fire. I've never complained about any of my firewood, if it's green I know it before it's delivered. I know the work that goes into this business and nobody is getting rich off of it. So I'll aways side with the firewood guy unless I know he's crook. One complaint I hate to hear is 'It's too small', geeesh, the guy has to use the whole tree from top to bottom, none of this sort'n out the tops BS. As you've implied Sawyer, that's when the price goes up. ;) ;D :D
hi! seems confusing, first forget full cord,4x4x8,nobody puts 4 ft long wood in a stove;so we are talking face cord=4x8x16 inches =32 square feet if it s stack,or 4x8x1.333 feet(16inches)=42.65 cubic feet . if loose it is 63 cubic feet for 16 inches long pieces of wood,take my word for it. Mesure in the truck. hope it helped.
This was almost eleven years ago :) My Block Buster was delivered in December of '05 a couple weeks after this thread. I was looking to not have to stack a test load ;) In the end I didn't. I asked my clients to let me know how I did ;) ;D I started with the 180 cubic foot figure but found that sometimes, not always, it would stack up short so I went to 190 :) That was many thousands of face cords, two dump trailers and two dump trucks ago. I'm tired of firewood now ;D ;D
OK, I'm getting confused again. I always knew a cord of wood was 128 cubic ft (4X4X8). I'd heard of a Strand which was 4X16X8 or 1/3 of a cord and a Face Cord which seemed to be 4X8 with undefined or unspecified length.
Most wood I see advertised is by the cord or by the truck or trailer load and the wood is generally thrown in the truck/trailer and rounded slightly for good measure if by the load.
What does the term "Ranked" as used above mean? I'd heard racked which seemed self explanatory (you stacked it in a rack) but never Ranked. Please advise. Thanks.
I think the University of Maine forestry dept actually loose tossed stacked cords a number of times and that's where the state got the loose tossed volume. Still plenty of room for variation.
Ranked would be the same as racked or stacked in a uniform manor
Ok so the trucker comes to my place charges me for say 14 cord, these are 16 ft long. Logs , I cut them and they go into a bag which is 53 cubic ft but it streaches a bit, so clser to 60 did a couple of checks and find we are on the money as far as the 53 is concerened, and if I get 12 cord out of the 14 I am happy if I get more I am pleased and I know I have not shorted any one so I must be getting more than my 14 originally. Here the cord is 8ft x4ftx4ft and they are log form that is how the mills buy them. As long as the customers are happy with what they got all is good
Ranked is defined in the first post:
QuoteRanked and well stowed" means that pieces of wood are placed in a row, with individual pieces touching and parallel to each other, and stacked in a compact manner. Any voids that will accommodate a stick, log or bolt of average dimensions to those in that pile must be deducted from the measured volume.
I stack my 5'×10'×16" trailer level full, which (if my math is correct) makes 67 cubic feet. I feel comfortable selling that as a half cord, however when I throw in the 67 cubic feet, and approx 20 Cubic feet on my truck I can't help but wonder if it is fair for me or the buyer? I don't mind a couple extra cubic per load but don't want to rip myself off either. Any thoughts?
Your right on, if you cheat yourself you will soon be out of the wood business. One has to be fair all around.
I was wondering when filling the truck with 16" wood it took so long and looked like more than a cord. We usually fill the truck to the top no mater the length. Looks like we need to make an adjustment. Thanks for the posting.
corley5,
I stacked 3 face cords a few years ago, then threw them on my conveyor and into my 12' dump trailer. I have always just sold by the trailer and tell customers what I did with my first load. Have never had a complaint because they are buying by the trailer load. I try to give a little extra now, and I don't sell firewood much anymore, mostly helping my family and a few friends with firewood now.
In north MN I tried to sell on the 160 cu ft. It staked to 110 . people yelled so then I gave up and went to 180 cu ft and that staked to 128 and every 0ne was happy but me . happy people buy wood next year and tell there friends . Un happy people tell everyone .
Good to know 180 cubic feet keeps people happy!
In the eleven years since I started this thread I have stacked loads. Mostly at our measured roadside camp wood racks. 180 works but for a good measure I do 190 and have for a long time. No one complains about short loads and some clients have told me I give a "good load" 8) The main thing when filling a truck or trailer loose for sale is to make sure the corners fill well. Sometimes they'll bridge and there will be larger air spaces than there should be.
During my short part time career in pulp wooding, when the old truck was full, the pulp wood yard never counted it as a full 1 1/2 load because of various reasons. The only fair method is by weight IMO.
Wood weighs different at different times of the year especially if selling green wood. Different species weigh different both green and seasoned. The amount of seasoning time will change the weight. Not everyone has a scale and it's not worth it to make an out of the way trip to weigh a load. Educating the firewood consumer about buying by weight instead of volume would be aggravating ;) ;D
Yup and depending on where your operating and selling wood. Up here it is cords and part of a cord by law. Trailer load or truck bed load won't fly. ;D
I buy 6 cord processed each year, of what my FW dealer called boiler stock (20" long, with one of the splitting blades removed). I always measure what I have after stacking, and only once have I had to call him to tell he was short by 3/4 cord.
He delivered another cord to make-up, and I bought another for a full 2 cord load (truck holds 2 cord). The owner delivered it himself, and apologized as he told his guys to make sure to mound over the load with boiler stock.
This is his 2 cord truck, stuck in my yard:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18492/1089.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1409838269)
As Corley said, air pockets in the corner of the trailer will get ya every time! If we've got an extra set up hands, somebody will use a 5 tined rake and help fill the sides and corners, usually the same person that moves the truck and trailer forward as we fill it...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18262/PROCESSOR_008.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1432755199)
Two people processing wood works good 8) One stays on the processer. The other's main job is to keep logs on the machine. When that need is met he keeps track of how the wood is loading, moves the truck as needed, and keeps the sawdust and debris under control.
Corely, my magic number is 3 people. BUT, I don't have my live deck rigged / hooked up yet. My processor has a lift (one log at a time)but just a homemade brow. Picture might help. I try and stay at the processor, one person trims up logs / knots, and rolls logs on the brow to the lift, the other person keeps the splitter clear, helps with re-splits, rakes the trailer, moves the truck, and helps with lifting the log onto the processor (this person gets a good workout). All the controls are run from my station, so my head is on a swivel most of the time!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18262/PROCESSOR_010.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1432755230)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18262/PROCESSOR_007.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1432755177)
A live deck makes it easier 8) This 14-12 Block Buster was the 2nd one made with a live deck. The first went to NY State.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10027/002~4.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1409660203)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10027/029~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1452205888)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10027/031~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1452205910)
I've got a deck off of a CRD that needs to be "engineered" onto mine... Hope to do that this winter. Would eliminate soooo much hassle!
I like your setup Corley, really like the conveyor. Mine is belt driven off the pto, and when I'm really cranking the weight can cause the belt to slip and plug up the operation. Really notice it when I'm doing 22in long wood, that adds enough extra weight.