ISO Certification

[Kansas]

The thread started by pigpen about fista certification, which I never even heard of, got me to thinking about ISO certification. The only reasons I would do it is that apparently some fortune 500 type companies set a great store by it. We have one of those companies as a client. Some engineer in that company is wanting to change the way some of our stuff is built. I don't think its because our stuff is failing, at least not our fault. I suspect some other company is trying to get a bunch of our business. Sometimes having fluff, or bling, or whatever you want to call it, gives a person in a big company like that cover. With our heat treatment chamber for international shipment on skids and pallets, it just got me to thinking. I don't know if I would do it, but would sure  like to know more about it.

I know a lot of you work outside the sawmill business, including for some big companies. Do any of you know how hard or expensive it is to become certified? I have never heard of a sawmill being ISO certified, although I imagine they are out there. To put it bluntly, I suspect some purchasing people in big corporations would pay more, maybe considerably more, if I had it for shipping containers. And I don't want to get caught unaware if an existing or potential new customer  asks me if we have it, or requires it.

[mills]

Its an expensive process, and has turned into an industry of it's own.

Basically, you document your process, and pay someone to audit you to certify that you actually do what your documents say. The selling point is that you can point to your certification and tell your customers that the pallet they are buying today is made to the same specifications as the one they bought two months ago.

If you go this route, you'll have to hire a consulting company to walk you through the process.

[SwampDonkey]

When you do a Google search all you see is the land base and method of management of it being certified, both Canada and Europe and places in Africa. ISO 9001 or 14001. I think the only thing at the mill is the grading that is certified. Could be wrong. If your making a product beyond lumber, then I suppose that is another certificate on the process. Doesn't even have to be a decent product. Look as CSA here in Canada. Just because it's CSA on it don't mean squat about quality and function. It's a self fulfilling, industry self regulated approval process in the case of CSA.

[Kansas]

I am just kicking around the idea. I guess my slant is, if I have some sort of certification on ISO, in conjunction with our audits for heat treatment, I figure some purchasing agents, who don't have a clue about pallets, skids and boxes, or anything else, can point to it and figure it covers them. My goal would be to get more per skid, etc. from new customers simply for having it. I am not sure its feasible. There are a lot of people in corporate America that play the CYA game. If it means much higher margins for us, well that is the angle I am exploring.

[SwampDonkey]

I think it may help with markets, but I wouldn't count on getting more $$.

[Kansas]

You may well be right, Swampdonkey. But if only a few percent of purchasing agents didn't care about the cost, it might work. We don't need more business, so I am taking the attitude that what additional work we take on, its going to be profitable.

True story here. We once cut oak to government specs for pallets the air force were using. We didn't build the pallets.Just cut the lumber for a broker that was working with the pallet company. The moisture content had to be below a certain level. The bottom boards had to be chamfered. Runners had to be grooved for banding. We got some good money for that lumber, which was basically 1 or 2 common lumber. One day the broker accidentally let it slip that the cost of the pallet had to be no more than 400 bucks a pallet. The most that pallet should have cost, even with everyone getting their cut, was 40 a pallet.

See where I'm going with this?

[SwampDonkey]

 :D Well if the government procurer is a ding dong that's their fault. I'd relieve them of the $400 and not complain too much. ;)

[thecfarm]

I worked for the car industry. We HAD to have all those fancy initials and there was more than ISO too, to sell parts. But the buyers did not have it in some cases.  : One of them,could of been the ISO one was,"Write what you do and do what you write",was the phase. LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of paper work. EVERY procedure HAD to be in writing. The auditors were right by the book too. VERY,VERY strict. I would hate to deal with it in my business,if I had one. The audit was always a planned one,so things could be done to make sure everything was right before they got there. Procedures had to be at every machine. How to LOTO had to be in place,meaning OSHA stuff. Which all the above is good,but it can be a BIG bother. I had a part in keeping up on some of the machines to make sure they was all set when checked. As soon as a product got on thier land it had to have a procedure on it. Another phase," cradle to grave". meaning when it arrived to when it left. There was even a special room to look things up in.If that was the only way to save a company than I would think about it. Have no idea how much the aduit would cost. Bet it would scare you though.They would be there for 3 days to check things out. I think they use to be 3 at a time too.

[WDH]

I have a lot of experience with it.  It is like Mills and thecfarm says, everything that you do has to be documented in writing.  There has to be a document control system.  It is a lot of extra work to get certified.  Requires third party auditors.  I don't think it makes sense for a small business. 

[thecfarm]

With even a small business you would almost need another person to get it all going in writing. It's hard to write something down step by step. Much easier just to do it.

[Kansas]

This is why I posted this on the forum. A wealth of knowledge to tap into. I know a small business consultant at a local university I will contact. Most likely, it will be an idea I abandon.

[mills]

If you have a specific task in your process that gives your product the consistency and quality that your customers expect, write it down. It may help someone remember a little detail if one of your "old hands" is off sick, or quits.  It will also give you a head start if you do decide to go the ISO route at a later date.

Kansas, in the future your customers may force you to implement ISO standards, but I would be suprised if it would be financially benefitial at this point.

My opinion only. Your consultant friend may know more about your markets, and show you how to use it to get a leg up on your competition. Let us know what you decide.

[John Mc]

ISO has a lot of different standards.  I assume you are talking about ISO 9000/9001 or ISO 14000.  I have some experience with 9000 working in the steel wire industry (some of this goes into automotive, which has their own set of additions to ISO 9000, known as QS 9000). 

ISO and QS 9000 got us absolutely nothing as far as better margins for our products.  What it did get us was continued business from many of our customers.  A number of them simply will not do business with you if you don't have it.

As others mentioned, it is a LOT of work and expense to get the certification, and to maintain it once you have it.  Some businesses can benefit from the rigor it requires on your quality system (businesses who do this right, rather than just creating a "paper tiger" tend not to have the problem of "Joe's been doing that job for 35 years. He just retired/died/is on vacation. It turns out no one else knows how to get that thingamabob to stay attached to the doohicky -- or even was aware that there was a trick to it.")

[stavebuyer]

I used to buy white oak logs for a company that is ISO9001 certified. The paperwork and procedure documentation is very burdensome. ISO more or less requires that you purchase from other ISO suppliers unless no other source for the materials exists. In theory that could lead to sales premiums. As an example; the written ISO procedure to measure a white oak log was eight pages in length and required re-testing of the buyers quarterly. All buyers had to be within a small percentage in both volume and price on a control set of logs in order to continue buying. No telling how much it costs that company in added procurement expense. ISO might lead to selling $400 pallets but not so sure it wouldn't cost you that much to build them.