Air Drying vs Kiln Drying

[Magicman]

I have no idea whether it does anything but I always add a squirt of dish soap to act as a surfactant.

[doc henderson]

A dash of dawn doesn't hurt anything. we used to add it to sheet rock mud, to help it smooth under trowel easier.

[Don P]

Absolutely, try it without and then add just a little and watch how much better it "wets out" the wood, those pesky air bubbles between the wood and water disappear and all of the wood gets wet.

[caveman]

We add dish soap to DOT in the sprayer and mix with very hot water, which dissolves the DOT powder very well. 

DonP, didn't you put some food coloring or other dye into your DOT spray to determine the depth of absorption some time ago?

On the question to build a kiln or not, building a small kiln is probably a good idea.  My uncle builds a lot of small craft things in his shop.  He built a wooden box, insulated and sealed it well.  With one lightbulb, it gets hot enough to sterilize wood.  We did something similar to kill termites in a cedar mantel piece prior to making our hot box.  

We plan to eventually build another solar kiln that also has the capability to be heated and held to 160* for setting pitch and sterilizing.  Moving wood from a drying kiln to a sterilizing kiln does not follow YellowHammer's rule of "...saving steps".  I hear JMoore remind me of that rule too often.

[Don P]

I mixed curcumin (turmeric) in a solvent and painted that on the fresh cut ends of boards I had rolled borate on about a year before. I wanted to see how deep the mix was penetrating. Boron and curcumin make rosocyanine, a bright red compound. 


Nisus sells an indicator solution, that is it. If you read some of the test reports from the RTA, Railroad Tie Association, they were using the same indicator to test long term efficacy of borate in ties.

[longtime lurker]

I'm just going to point out that the law is the law.

Now I don't claim to have any great understanding of the particulars of the law pertaining to preservative treatment of wood in any jurisdiction other than my own, but certain principles are just about sure to apply regardless of where you are.

One is that you have to define treatment, and part of the legal definition of what is or isn't treated is the retention level of the treatment solution. You must hit a certain level of chemical in/on the wood for wood to be classified as treated to the various hazard classes. My 10 second google search turned up a US Forest Service paper saying that for wood to be passed as borate treated it had to have a retention level of 0.17 pounds per cubic foot. Did a bit of maths to convert that to metric and checked against the Australian standard and that's probably H1/H2 hazard class.

Now the thing I'm going to tell y'all is that there ain't no way you are going to get 0.17 pounds of borate into every cubic foot of lumber by spraying it on and stickering your boards out.  Spraying like that puts borates on the wood not in the wood. Sure you get a little bit of helpful diffusion but that's about as limited as Don's rosocyanine picture indicates and that hasn't even got full penetration on the sapwood.
(total penetration of all sapwood is another technical determinant between treated and untreated lumber)

Now the rules being the rules if your lumber can't hit the retention levels to be classed as treated then it must be classed as untreated, even if you sprayed it with borate solution.

So while individual mileage will vary - and I'd advise anyone thinking about it to do their own checks on retention levels in whatever jurisdiction they happen to be - I would have zero hesitation in spraying borates onto stickered lumber in a greenmill type setting. You just can't get enough salts into the wood to make treated lumber that way. Just sayin'.

[YellowHammer]

That is a very good observation and point, and one to certainly keep in mind, especially when selling wholesale or even treating green as LL says, if that if those limits are not reached then the wood is not "legally" treated anyway. 

However, that is the definition of what constitutes treated lumber but that does not define the allowable exposure or hazards, either short term or long term, to humans as published by the CDC, NIH, or OSHA as well as the label of the product. Those amounts may be much different, and would also be different as the pesticide undergoes its multiple phases of application or state of wet, aerosol, or dry.  Most hazard use hazards labels do not list concentrations of exposure limits, but are more broad and blanket statements, but since they are on the label of the product itself, would be used in the lawsuit, or are the ones used by easy access by the user, simply because it's pn the label or published by the manaufacturer. 

For example, on the label of Boracare it says, and I quote "Use Restrictions:  Do not use in edible product areas of food processing plants or on countertops and other surfaces where food is prepared. Do not use in serving areas where food is exposed. Do not contaminate feed, water or food. Do not enter or allow others to enter or occupy treated areas until spray has been absorbed into the wood. Treated areas must not be occupied during application."  Pretty definitive and unattractive to the average woodworker.

Look at the manufacturer's label for Timbor, it clearly states it is Classed as a Reproductive Level 2 Hazard, which means "Substances are classified in Category 2 for reproductive toxicity when there is some evidence from humans or experimental animals, possibly supplemented with other information, of an adverse effect on sexual function and fertility..."

So, as I mentioned earlier, the are very definable hazards associated with at least these products.  Also as I mentioned, it is this information that will turn off most customers immediately. 

To make consumer perceptions even worse, there is a huge amount of distrust when dealing with any pesticide, herbicide, or pretty much anything.  How many people have been spraying Roundup their whole lives thinking it was safe, and now find out it is far from it?  How many people buy water filters for their home ice makers in their fridge, after being told by their city managers that their tap water is perfectly safe to drink?  Just this week, it was "discovered" that the dye in Oreo cookies "may" be a carcinogen, and who would have thought that baby powder or sheetrock had contained asbestos?  This news is pervasive and constant, and fills the consumers perceptions, whether overblown or not.

As an experiment, lay out two pallets of identical wood, each with a big sign on them, saying "This one sterilized by heat, and not exposed to pesticides or chemicals of any kind" and on the other, a jug of Boracare or Timbor sitting in top of it along with a printed manufacture warning label, along with a sign saying "Sterilized by Pesticide" and see which one sells better.

Also, I am just stating my perceptions and positions, people are gonna do what they do, and everyone should make their own decisions and judgments.  From a toxicity standpoint, Boron products are very safe, especially compared most other pesticides.  However, do you want to end up in court with a young lady who can't have a baby for whatever reason and who subsequently found out that her husband bought some wood from you, treated by a pesticide that, when she read the label, was listed as a possible reproductive hazard?  Not me, and that is not as far fetched as it sounds.  Just saying.....   

[YellowHammer]

Here is a shot of the Timbor label.  It is pretty stark and definitive. "H361: Suspected of damaging fertility or the unborn child."  

[Don P]

Well, the thing is, it is one of the few chemicals that can cause a male mammal to Uh, lose interest. Which is why I have no problem with adding it to a deer lick. I'd like nothing more than to take the lead out of their pencil. So the other place besides Boron California that it is prevalent is Afghanistan. Now think about where the men are bat poo crazy and shooting one another with AK's, Don't ingest the stuff, it has low mammalian toxicity but don't make it part of your diet.

[longtime lurker]

That's a very valid point  Robert - Perception is as much a reality as fact, regardless of whether it mimics reality.

Fortunately I live where I do and if the day comes where some young lady who cannot have a child wants to sue me over the presence of chemical compounds in the wood her house is built from well she can have at it. Under state law the sale of untreated lyctid susceptible wood here is prohibited for structural applications and effectively all construction timber is treated to at least  H3 level. And once you have a plant you just treat everything, because most builders won't build with anything not treated even if it doesn't have to be... the perception being that the use of untreated lumber could get them sued if termites moved in and ate the house out at some point in the future.

And of course once you start pressure treating you find out that CCA is cheaper and easier to use than borates. CCA is getting a lot of push back over the perception  (rather than the reality) of A though, so now most have swung to ACQ or Tan E (copper azole).

Sooo... we make it all black, then plane the treatment envelope off as required. Because a piece of wood that's been treated has been treated, even if the treatment has been dressed off. Which is absolutely as preposterous as saying a piece of wood sprayed with something as benign as borates is dangerous after you machine the surface layer off.
It's a crazy old world right?

[YellowHammer]

That's interesting, everything used as structural is generally treated in some way?  What about studs and stuff like that?  Can the small operator do this, or is the wood shipped to treatment facilities and returned for sale?

Here, some of the stores sell reclaimed boards with frass volcanos and bugs actively crawling on the floor.  One guy told me he felt like he had to take a shower when he got home.

I got this email this morning from a new potential customer: "My wife has settled on butcher-block for the countertops.  I'm curious, are the woods you normally have safe for food preparation, or have they been sprayed or treated with bug killer?" 

This is typical, and I could go into along dissertation about the safety of pesticides, exposures with him, etc, but the easy answer I e-mailed back was "No pesticides have been used on my wood, I sterilize all my wood with heat in excess of FDA guidelines."     

[longtime lurker]

The way through the minefield is to follow the law without breaking the law while exploiting every gap, hole or loophole you can. I don't know much about pine operations but they are mostly larger, or at least large enough to have a pressure treatment plant. All pine framing studs etc) is treated and KD, usually LOSP for internal applications. Pine is also treated usually with CCA for external useage. I don't know of any small pine operators at all, smallest guy I know runs about 5000m3 a year which would be somewhere around 1MMBF at a guess based on 50% recovery rate.

Hardwood gets a lot of mileage in construction here due to the high strength and natural durability of most eucalypt species, and hardwood mills tend to be smaller.  Take off the twenty largest mills and the average would be somewhere between 5000 -10000 m3 so probably recover 500-1000 MBF. I'm on the bottom end of that group FWIW

Anyway AS2082 Visually Stress Grade Hardwood  (national structural grade rule) states that lyctid susceptible sapwood will not exceed the limits of want and wane which are proscribed as up to 1/2 the thickness of an edge or 1/3 the width of a face. So couple of things there... you can have lyctid susceptible sapwood up to those limits with no issue ( good luck trying to sell that though but I'm sure some people do)... if the sapwood isn't lyctid susceptible it's good, in fact you can have as much lyctid non susceptible sapwood as you danG like because it doesn't say you can't.... and you can treat lyctid susceptible sapwood which makes it not lyctid susceptible sapwood with chemicals, or reduce the moisture content enough to not support wet wood borer species with a kiln or yanno.... just don't sell wood that contains any sapwood. Just follow the law to the letter right???

States have different laws to complement that. In Queensland the use of lyctid susceptible sapwood in structural products is totally prohibited, so you cut sap free or treat in those species. Every state also has "fit for useage" provisions which require the use of suitable species to the application. Or you can cut with lyctid susceptible sapwood and send it interstate to a place where it's moot. That happens.

Most little mills either stay in a local market selling sapwood free or non susceptible species, or sell to a wholesaler who has a treatment plant, or stay in the niche product marketspace where you don't have to worry about this stuff except as a quality thing.

Me... I treat. Borate treatment to the requisite loadings can be done without pressure treatment and I've done it for years. It's not a spray and stack process though but I can hit retention levels on a 24HR hot soak cycle. Borate treated timber here is classed as H3 south of the Tropic of Capricorn but only H1 north of it.... worst termites in the world live hereabouts. I like borates as a treatment solution... natural wood colour, the right mix helps inhibit collapse in collapse prone species, with the right loading you can hit all the fire retardent ratings and done right to get proper diffusion it's not just planed off like an envelope treatment. I use borates for the cabinet and joinery species, flooring and internal useage products where treatment to H1 is sufficient. With framing I stick to my sap free durability class 1 species or I send it away for pressure treatment and ship it back home. But I'm pretty much at a point where a treatment plant is on the priority list because the value of the lost volume cutting sapwood free is exceeding the capital outlay to install my own plant and recover it.

In Australia I would say more commercial hardwood mills have pressure treatment plants than have kilns. Green off saw hardwood framing is still common here which explains that, but also the fact that it's cheaper to run a pressure treatment plant than run a kiln, and that treatment is forever whereas KD is only good until it gets wet.  So compared to you guys it's a different playing field but similar outcome - those who get it right go forward and those who cut corners and sell wood full of grubs fall behind

[YellowHammer]

That is amazing information, much seems completely different than in the states here, especially the identification of non insect prone sapwood species, and the differentiating between the different locales.  Also, wow, you sound like you've got another construction project in the future, that will be an interesting read for sure!

 

[longtime lurker]

My construction projects list seems never-ending: I'm worse than you in terms of vertical integration because we log as well...about 1/3 of my log supply is in house... the business model has a lot of moving parts.

The analogy I use for a sawmill business is that it's like a truck... if you want more out of it you can't just get there by fitting a bigger engine if the gearbox and diffs won't handle more torque. So do you start at the back and work forwards or start at the front and work back? And while all that goes on the kids still need the driven to school every day and you're still up for new tyres and general maintenance and stuff.

The three years ago pie in the sky "we might drop some fill there cuz one day it might be useful" expansion of the log yard is now at "it needs to stop raining because I don't have enough room". It'll finish this year.
I've got one shed badly needs a new roof and another not far behind it.
Electrical upgrade for the greenmill building.
The handstand between the two main building clusters needs serious love with a grader, rollers and resurfacing.
The log yard loader needs replacement or a serious downtime overhaul. Poor old doll has done 15 years with little more than grease and oil changes and she needs some serious love.
Do I go with a high speed SLR or will a Baker board edger like YH's actually stand up to this type of wood? How I'm doing it is way too slow and straight finished product is what's bringing the big punters in.
Need more kiln!
Treatment plant, but where do I put it?
Electrical upgrades, then more electrical upgrades.
Log truck? Log Transport and  timber back and forth to treatment is over $100k for the year already and we've been weather constrained. I've only said no more trucks after selling the last three but things have changed again.
Greenmill. Greenmill. Greenmill.... the solution to that starts with a complete new shed. New shed would open up the current building for a treatment plant, air drying storage, kilns out where the run stacks are which creates space in the drymill shed tomakeitflow better. .. let me integrate the sawline components I've got lying about and a better resaw as well...  yeah be $600k just for the building  that just has to wait...
Skilled staff, where do I find them, I don't have time to teach people from zero myself. And an admin person, I take 100 calls a week and then there's quotes and estimating and logistics and payroll and A/R and A/P... no wonder I get nothing done.

There's a guy gets around the forum with a tag line goes something like "the easiest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is start with two million". I don't think he's factored in inflation 

Treatment plant be 2 years out yet.

[Peter Drouin]

It never ends with sawmills  I talked with Wood Mizer today. They want $17,500 for a 12' log deck.

[longtime lurker]

And that's the problem... I've got two big Gibson decks under cover in the yard but installation means either a pit - never a good idea in a place that gets 200" of rain a year - or elevated construction which puts things too close to the roof. Same issue with the 54" band resaw, you can't get within 10 foot of my roofs without cooking. Great for air drying though.

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=353572.

I could extend the greenmill shed this way about 30 yards and excavate out the bench there to get things to work  but the shed is a touch narrow to lay things out right and  it can't be accessed from the far end or much of the far side in that picture. And shoehorning a full sawline in there would leave me short of covered storage and I'd still need somewhere for a pressure treatment plant.

https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=353571

Or once my little earthworks project is completed and I can use the right side for log storage I could put up a new shed in the middle of the log yard purpose designed for the sawline. Kilns could then go on the bench behind the current shed with enough separation that I don't lose sleep over burning everything down, treatment plant could be inside it, and enough pack storage to make things work. That's the sensible do it once do it right answer. (The best best answer though would be knock the house out and put the next shed there but yanno... new shed and new house at the same time is not happening on my chequebook)

Problem is that that new shed wherever it goes at today's prices will cost the best part of half a million dollars before i start putting things inside it, and without at least 10 years of guaranteed log supply it would be awful adventurous even for me.

I'm still having fun anyway, and it'll all sort out given time.  Meanwhile we make do, little steps one after another.