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Mandatory Cutting Orders

Started by 1938farmall, February 02, 2009, 10:37:26 AM

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1938farmall

I have about 20acres in Managed Forest Law which means low taxes in return for cutting selected trees to keep the woods healthy.  I'm allowed to keep 80 basal feet/acre (80sq.ft.@dbh) of larger stock and want to do so.  I'm thinking this will be at odds with the logger who will try to take as much as possible while he is on the job.  It seems that at this time of the year it would be easy for a Forester to go to GPS points at the center of each acre & look around with an instrument while a helper marks the "no cut" trees adding up to 80 and then move to the next point.  Can someone tell me how it's actually done, and how do I prevent the logger from taking too many trees? (Once the trees are cut, even lawyers can't stand them back up).  Thank you, Al
aka oldnorskie

chevytaHOE5674

I would have a forester come through and mark all the trees to be cut (be sure saw log trees get stump marked as well). Then check the log decks to make sure the trees cut were painted. Also check cut stumps to make sure there is paint on them. This will help keep the logger honest.

Marking trees depends on long term forest goals (IE wildlife, aesthetics, recreation, timber, etc)

If it is northern hardwoods I would tell the forester you want it marked to 80ft^2/ac, cutting across all diameter classes, so that the stand remains structurally diverse. Generally we mark the diseased and poor health trees first, if more needs to be harvested we mark trees that are unlikely to make it to the next rotation or ones that are unlikely to increase in quality and size. This is typically what we do around here. 

Depending on species composition you can do seed tree release to promote certain species (like oak or walnut), also small patch cuts can be put in to promote wildlife.

1938farmall

Thank you Chevy...  I've heard of loggers who do their own painting & was thinking that marking the base of the "save" trees would be more reliable? al
aka oldnorskie

thompsontimber

As chevy stated, that is correct farmall--Simply painting the trees at dbh leaves no evidence if unmarked trees are harvested.  Paint on the stump will provide evidence and make the logger less inclined to take a tree here or there that he should not (not to suggest that most loggers would, most would not, but its a minor bit of work to hit the stumps with a squirt.  That is standard practice in forestry, but not all do it.  I know of a tract locally sold by a consultant forester that was marked on the stem but not marked at the stump.  He turned a logger loose on it while the landowner was on vacation and the logger massacred it, definetely taking more than was marked, but nothing on the stumps for evidence of the wrongdoing.  The empty spaces were the only proof.

Cedarman

I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

ID4ster

Is your 80 sq ft of basal area a minimum or a maximum amount that you're allowed to keep? And are you required to cut it now? The reason that I ask is that currently across most of the US the timber market is in the dumps and selling now isn't something that I'd recommend. If you don't have to cut than I'd hold off for another year or so. If you must cut than follow the guidelines previously mentioned for marking the trees and have your forester low grade the entire stand. Currently low grade wood (firewood, pallet stock, pellet wood) is about the only thing that is even worth considering for a sale. How you structure the sale (pay-as-cut, lump sum or shares) is something you'll also need to discuss with your forester. Make sure that you have your property boundary marked and a written contract. Make sure that your forester does the marking and that you have an opportunity to review it with him/her. Get a good logger. Good luck.
Bob Hassoldt
Seven Ridges Forestry
Kendrick, Idaho
Want to improve your woodlot the fastest way? Start thinning, believe me it needs it.

John Mc

Some good advice you've gotten so far. I'd add that a good forester probably has several good loggers he/she works with regularly, so they know what to expect from them, both in terms of honesty and competence.

Marking at DBH and on the stump is a good practice, though not foolproof. Someone who really wants to cheat you can just bring some marking paint in with them. As others have noted, the "bad eggs" are probably few and far between. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take precautions, however.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

stonebroke

Also painting stumps only works if the logger cannot get the same paint.

Stonebroke

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: stonebroke on February 02, 2009, 02:34:42 PM
Also painting stumps only works if the logger cannot get the same paint.

Stonebroke


Or if you use paint with tracer added like the forest service and some consultants i know of use. Or if the logger is trust worthy then he will respect the paint.

1938farmall

Thanks all, for the advice & warnings.  I guess I should have realized that questionable ethics runs the gamut from logging to Wall Street.  Maybe I'll sprinkle some metal filings on the south side of the marked trees & check later with a magnet.  :-) ag
aka oldnorskie

Ron Scott

Use care when doing the painted stump marks. Be sure that the paint mark goes well down to ground level so that the low stump can't be cut below the paint mark and the logger can leave evidence of the paint mark on the cut stump. ;)

We always stump mark.
~Ron

snowman

We lose more rights every day. Can't even log your own land your own way anymore. I have land in Wa state i've been logging that has a stream right through the  middle. Enviros got a no cut within 50 feet of stream law put in without regard to forest condition. My main goal in logging this land was to get rid of grand fir with bugs. Lots of those along this stream.State guy said I couldn't cut them, they were still considered shade trees. I said if I leave them all there will be is snags along this creek which will eventually blow over or burn up,wheres your shade then? He said he knew I was right but that was the law. He did however say if i cut them for firewood for personal use ;) it was kind of a loophole. So thats what i did. About 300 cords for personel use. Boy did i burn alota wood this winter,I really should insulate this shack! :)

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: Ron Scott on February 02, 2009, 07:46:53 PM
Use care when doing the painted stump marks. Be sure that the paint mark goes well down to ground level so that the low stump can't be cut below the paint mark and the logger can leave evidence of the paint mark on the cut stump. ;)

We always stump mark.

Yep we try and get them onto the root flare all the way down to the dirt. In 4-5 foot of snow that means digging with your snowshoes for a while at each tree....

ahlkey


Why not consider marking each basal area you want to keep with a different paint color at the stump.  Specific paint is available that degrades so over time the markings will disappear.  I wouldn't recommend this added labor for larger tracts but with only 20 acres of selective cutting it would not add that much cost.   I have also found the DNR folks who manage the MFL program here in central Wisconsin to be very flexible.  Even if it says you are required to do a cut this year it is usually ok to delay or spread it out over a couple of years even for small woodlots.  If you are not able to do the logging yourself consider being onsite at the end of each day to at least survey how things are going.  Good Luck 

Ron Scott

Yes, marking timber is much harder during the snow season, especially in Houghton county. ;) We use a paddle for clearing snow down to the root flare, but try to schedule most of the marking during the snow free seasons.
~Ron

BaldBob

Although marking the trees to be cut is perhaps the most common practice, marking the trees to be left can often be a better option.  This is especially likely when you are marking to meet a target residual basal area.  The marker can concentrate on leaving only the most vigorous best form trees, rather than looking for bad trees to cut & hoping there are enough trees left to meet the basal area target.  Also there is no issue of whether or not the logger has access to the same kind of paint since only the unpainted trees are to be cut.  Any stump with paint on it would have been cut in violation of the contract.

Whether or not leave tree marking or cut tree marking  requires more work depends on the original stand composition and the ratio of trees to be cut vs. those to be left.  Since I am basically lazy I have used both systems with the choice usually determined by which system will be easiest in the particular situation. When the number (not necessarily volume)of trees to be cut exceeds the number to be left it is usually easier to leave tree mark.  This is quite often the situation when doing a thinning from below or working in a very dense natural stand.  However, for a light selection sanitation cut it is almost always easier to just mark the trees to be cut.

1938farmall

baldbob... thanks, i was hoping someone would agree that marking the "save" trees would be a viable option.  al
aka oldnorskie

Ron Wenrich

No matter which way you mark it, you'll want to put stump spots on the painted trees.  The only down side to marking to keep is that all your trees will have paint on them.  Depending on the owner, that could be aesthetically unappealing.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

chevytaHOE5674

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on February 03, 2009, 06:13:34 PM
The only down side to marking to keep is that all your trees will have paint on them.


And the normal tree paint will persist on the trees for years to come. We have stands marked that were painted 5-6+ years ago.


snowman

I have a different take on this than the rest of the well meant adviced offered.Get a logger with good refrences, someone you can trust.A logger that values his reputation. Develop an honest relationship based on trust not mistrust.Have your timber marked of course but if you have done your homework and hired an honest logger theres no need to mark stumps. This stump marking thing is a hallmark of the us vs them mentality that the FS has developed. Theres no need for it between a landowner and a well chosen logger. I always feel insulted when people assume I will steal from them given the opportunity. Thats what your doing when you mark the stumps. Also be sure and tell the logger if he must take a leave tree or knocks one over,leave a similar tree that isnt marked. Work together, show some trust and respect. Or then again, maybe those days are gone forever, maybe I'm living in the past. I'm going to go watch some Andy Griffith reruns now,bye :D

1938farmall

snowman,  i'm old enuf to appreciate your comments.  my problem with a small parcel, there is a very limited pool of loggers to choose from.  also, some of my relatives have worked for them in the past and, well, i don't dare tell the tales.  :'( al
aka oldnorskie

BaldBob

Snowman,
While I agree that the majority of loggers are honest, as farmall has indicated, a small landowner often has very limited choice in who will do the job.  Also I have been involved in enough investigations where the logger marked additional trees (cut tree mark) or where a cat or skidder was used to scuff the painted bark off marked stumps (leave tree marked) to always "trust but verify".

Ron & Chevy Tahoe,
If aesthetics are an issue in leave tree marked stands, the marks can be covered (after logging) with earth tone paint closely matching bark color.  Not an ideal solution, but will suffice for most situations.

Ron Scott

Yes, different tree marking schemes may be used , marked to cut, marked to leave, a combination of both, etc. Different paint colors may even be used in marking the stand. Some marking jobs can become quite complex depending upon the landowners specific management objectives.

I've done some State tree marking jobs where we had to carry 3 - 4 paint guns while marking the stands for harvest. Crop trees were marked with one color, tree species of a certain diameter were marked with another color, a specific species was marked with another color, wildlife trees with another color, etc. etc. Then the stand had to be cruised for the volume of only the unmarked trees to be cut. ;)

When we mark to cut, we mark wildlife den, snag, cavity, and mast trees "to leave" with a "WL", but with the same color paint being used. 
~Ron

rebocardo

If I was worried about someone cheating on the cutting, I would probably head down to the local automotive paint jobber and have a bright colored metallic made up that would not be available off the shelf anywhere.

Such as Corvette yellow with green metallic flakes (never offered from GM). Then put it into a can you pressurize with your own air compressor and head out to the forest with four cans.

Cedarman

Psychologists have run tests showing that when given the opportunity most people will cheat a little if they think they will not be caught and this is when money is directly involved.  Also, most people will cheat a good bit if they believe they won't be caught and the transaction does not directly involve money.    This comes from testing people.  I wouldn't think of not marking stumps. 

Another way is to take pictures of your woods from marked spots.  Compare before and after photos.   If the trees are all marked from the same side, they should show up in the picture.   Not foolproof, but  you will have some good before and after shots.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

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