RED PINE: On my land there are about 4000 Red Pines 60 - 70 years old, 8-12" The past two winters I have been selectively harvesting, debarking and sun drying for furniture and other home projects, gates and fence posts around the garden.
Now I want to harvest some for a pole barn and sink them into holes, fill them with concrete. What is the best method to lastingly preserve them. What products would you recommend to coat them with for preservation?
As I harvest these trees I debark them immediately by hand. In 3 to 6 months they are dry enough for working. I am a new at this and want to turn out the best product possible. Any "How To" info you can offer would be appreciated.
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Log Hand!
Log Hand,welcome to the forum.
Trees 60-70 years old and only 8-12 inches? They must grow real close together,or alot of other trees around them.
If you use Red pine for posts, you will be disappointed. Other than actual pressure treating, there's no treatment I'm aware of that will preserve them. Red pine is among the fastest decaying woods if it's in ground contact.
Yes they are growing close together. I was told they were only thinned once. I am working at selectively thinning them with my Chainsaw but for the purpose of my personal use. A local tree cutter offered to thin them for free for the timber but I declined. Then I read that they produce better quality if they do grow close together, that is why I am selectively thinning as I need them. Right now I am taking out one side of the double trees. My goal is to buy a portable saw mill and cut logs on three sides and live one live edge for building projects. However that is money down the trail. Right now I want to cut some trees for posts in a pole barn. I am looking for the best way to preserve them in, at, and above the ground.
Some local oldtimers said they will only last 2 to 5 years, so I am looking to do this much much better.
Can anyone help out an old Vietnam Vet Tank Commander 1/69 Armor 69-70, 4ID, Mang Yang Pass, Hwy 19. LZ Action.
Scorched wood doesn't rot. Burn the ends and up past ground contact. Burn them really good. Make em black as tar. It'll take time but it's cheaper and probably easier than chemicals or whatnot. Pay special attention to the cut end - the open fibers act like a wick. Some old timers used to nail a shingle tar side to wood on the end of posts to stop this. The weight of the building will push the asphalt into the end of the post and seal it. I guess I'd either make a fire strip to roll them into and out of or stack them across some old logs up off the ground and burn them individually with a propane weed burning torch.
Just a simple and hopefully cheaper idea. It'll use some propane but it's probably cheaper than anything else.
Thanks for the burn tip. I think it is a good one. Thank you. I hate to waste my time and also my trees. It is so much work doing this by hand. We have made a nice log bed, and we are working on a second one for the Master Bedroom.
I can envision my house (that is in for forest) with a pine porch. I don't know if it is possible but I am looking for solutions besides thinning the whole 7 acres and giving it all away for the thinning.
I talked with a local sawmill and he said the pines on my land are much higher quality than what I can buy at the big box stores. So I am trying to figure out how to use them effectively.
I don't know how many acres of pine plantation you have but you would financially be better off having the stand commercially thinned and using the money to pursue your projects. There is good money in red pine poles.
I get it, there is satisfaction in doing this sort of thing yourself. If that is what you are after then have the plantation thinned and have them leave one corner for yourself to play with.
Clark
I too have slow growth red pine and I'm happy with how stable and dense they are. Some of them are absolutely darn heavy with the resin in them. I've only had a single 4x4 post twist on me. The rest of my lumber has very little crook or bow. You'll like your poles and the satisfaction of using your own stuff is unbeatable. Of course everybody is different and nobody will knock you for selling what you've got and buying other stuff to use! Keep us posted - pics are everybody's favorite and everything you do will be saved pretty much forever and might be able to help somebody else in the future.
I checked last fall with a company that was harvesting red pines on the border of my 7 acres, they said they would do it for free for the timber. It would bring no financial gain. None, zero, zip!
Therefore I began to research what I can do with it. I too like how dense it is. 12 years ago my wife and I built our own home using stuff at the big box stores and now we want to dress it up with pine inside and out and a few other projects. On another 10 acres of our land we have Maple, Beach, Ironwood, Wild Cherry. I have cleared about 2 acres of it for our home site. Now I am selectively harvesting as the trees age and begin to show signs of decay for firewood. In all I have 22.5 acres. A dream come true for an old Vet. However I am using a wheelbarrow, a hand log arch, to bring this wood to the house. Fun! Makes me feel like a young man, except in the mornings. Creating using my own wood is powerful invigorating and pleasant to mind of a old war horse. Please keep the tips coming on what you experienced men know about preserving and using this wood. I do appreciate it. Thanks...
Again I would say, don't use it for posts. Red pine is great for lots of stuff, but in ground posts is definately not on that list. Red pine is strong, makes great framing and sheathing, building logs, and a host of other uses as well, but it's decay resistance is very poor.
The reason you got that offer from the logger, just going by your description of the timber, is that your pine has gone far too long without being thinned. It is a challenge to go in and correct this type of stand, you have to cut enough to make room for the equipment, but if you take too much the whole plantation will blow over in the next windstorm. Additionally, the diameter wood leaves a lot of pulp. If your pine pulp market is like ours, the logger usually loses money on the pulp. In your case, I would talk to a forester, or get bids from a few other loggers. It could be that it would be worth money to another outfit, you just have to check around. But if the trees averaged 8" breast height, they would be what we call "penciled", and it's tough to go into a stand in that condition, do it any good, and make money at the same time. My .02.
QuoteBut if the trees averaged 8" breast height, they would be what we call "penciled", and it's tough to go into a stand in that condition, do it any good, and make money at the same time. My .02.
That's my take on it too. The logs are obviously worth something commercially, but the expense and trickier work of doing a thinning takes up most of the value. Clear cutting the area, you may get some return, because the logger can recover 2X the logs in a day, meaning there is some $$ left to pay you for the trees.
Locally, trees that size would be "thinned to waste" and simply left to rot where they fell. Not worth hauling them out. But different practices in different places.
Now as for using what you have there for your own use? As long as your aren't paying yourself by the hour you can putz around, recover and use them. At that size an ATV and small log arch is going to work fine. But I'd seriously consider bringing the mill purchase forward. You only need a "baby", hobby style, sawmill to process that size stick.
The "trick" to preserving pine is to get it dry, and keep it off the ground. If I was looking to build with trees like that, I'd be putting in some concrete footers, and then sawing out a stick built barn / shed / whatever, and cladding it with 8x1 board and batten. All stuff you can make from those small logs. Keep it off the ground, and protected by the roof eaves and it's going to last pretty well. Red Pine makes perfectly good construction lumber, but for ground contact it needs commercial grade treatment, pump it full of Copper and Chromium etc. This isn't practical at home, and other alternatives tend to be pretty toxic, to the point of being illegal.
Is it an option to sell part of the trees as a clear harvest? If you can pocket $3,000, you can buy a cheap sawmill, and still have 3,000(?) trees left to play around with. Replant the clear felled area, and manage it for your Grandkids eventual benefit. With some earlier thinning you would have a smaller number of much more valuable trees. 1,000 x 18 - 24" trees would bring much more interest from loggers, compared to 4,000 x 10" trees.
Just some thoughts anyway.
I certainly wouldn't go to the trouble of building a pole style barn using untreated pine. You will live to see it fall over. Built it properly, and it should outlast the both of use.
I concur on the posts. Don't do it unless you have a place to pressure treat.
Don't put those trees in the ground. I tried it in the 80's....failure. Save your time and effort.
When the reds are planted as a plantation they grown straight and "reach for the sky" looking for sunlight.
What are the choices for you to keep the red pines out of the ground? Bringing concrete footers up to above ground level?
Sonotubes? Pylons? Stacking up field stone and doing it cabin style like the old timers?
Edit: I meant pillars, not pylons. Stupid gray matter in my cranium had a brain fart.
OK, ok dream modified... My dream has met the reality of your experience. Above ground only! Got it!
What if I put them up on concrete pillars one to two feet above the ground here in snow country, or should I go higher? We can get 3 or even 4 feet of snow on the ground a couple of months of the year.
Then on another topic, what would you "Log-Men" recommend for a starting sawmill for my own use to cut up SOME of these trees into build projects? I am interested in boards, but also some 3 sided cuts with one live edge to make some log sheds and perhaps larger buildings.
Your experience here would be appreciated. I was pondering an LT10 but I am open to your wisdom and experience. All the info you have supplied so far has been extremely helpful. Thanks! This is a great site.
They can't be in contact with concrete, that is just as bad as dirt.
OK, is there any method you would use to make a connection? Can I connect them to metal in concrete? I am sure I am not the only one wondering how to do this. What method would you use if you wanted to use Red Pine?
I could put a 6x6 PT in a 4 foot length into concrete and then bolt the red pine to that above the concrete.
I do like to make things last a lifetime. I want to build things my grandchildren could appreciate.
If I must do all the groundwork in PT and attach Red Pine to that ok, then I will do it. How does that sound?
There are various methods you can use.
Pressure treated wooden piles is one. Then the rest of the building sits on those.
Concrete piers can be used, but you need a moisture barrier between the concrete and the wood. They sell a heavy rubber sheet material for that, then you can wire the building down so you don't make holes in your moisture barrier.
Or you can buy, or even make, galvanised brackets that you cast or drill into the concrete. Again this separates the concrete and wood, while firmly attaching them. This sort of thing
http://www.strongtie.co.nz/pdf/catalogs/C-C-AU16-R1/C-C-AU16-p028-029.pdf (http://www.strongtie.co.nz/pdf/catalogs/C-C-AU16-R1/C-C-AU16-p028-029.pdf)
So there are many ways to skin this particular cat.
Once you have that durable foundation and moisture defence you are good to build with your pine.
Concrete holds and keeps moisture. Putting a treated post in the ground tamp it in with crushed rock. Water has better chance to drain away.Just dirt a 6 inch corral post is done in 20 to 25 years and we are not very wet here.
Sometimes....many times, you just have to pay to get the right materials and get the done without future surprises.
6 x 6 pressure treated poles are the answer to constructing a "pole" building. Unless you can get telephone poles which I've seen a guy in the U.P. build a large barn. 24' high side walls.
All those red pines you have are a great asset....for the right use.
I want to thank all the guys who answered and "GAVE" me their time and experience.
Thanks to:
Porcupine
Chuck White
Thecfarm
Barbender
Ox
Clark
Ianab (ga-day-mate)
Jeff
rjwoelk
I hope your lives continue to produce all the good things you can create!
Log Hand, you should come and meet some of the members in person on August 4th and 5th here in Harrison Mi. at the annual Forestry Forum pigroast.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,96484.0.html
We built a large deck out of Wisconsin-sawn red pine about 7 years ago. We placed the red pine legs directly onto floating concrete footers as this was in a very wet cedar swamp area, subject to huge frost heaving in the spring. The red pine lumber in this very damp situation has been treated twice with sealer. So far, it is holding up better than I would have thought. The red pine legs definitely touch the concrete, and that has not been a problem so far. Just thought I'd add that bit to this conversation.
I built a log home out of large red pines from Minnesota. Yes they rot when they get wet. I learned that with one of my window sills. Fixed that by building a roof over my whole deck. My logs do not get wet anymore. I would not be afraid to build the building you want as long as you raise the logs up out of the ground, use some kind of sill to keep the logs off the concrete and have nice big overhangs to keep rain from blowing in. Good luck.
How about staggered, laminated, bolted 2x6 treated in the ground then add 2x6 Red pine nailed above ground.
Did this on my pole building, but used Hemlock.
I think RP should be OK.
Also it makes nice T&G paneling.