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Roundup Usage Questions

Started by bigtrees, May 28, 2019, 09:38:23 PM

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btulloh

I find it best to buy the surfactant that's formulated for the job.  It's cheap and not worth trying to save money by using dish soap or something.   Supposed to non-ionic.  Also low-suds, which a good thing.
HM126

John Mc

Quote from: btulloh on June 08, 2019, 08:31:58 AM
I find it best to buy the surfactant that's formulated for the job.

And that surfactant would be...?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

btulloh

It's sold as surfactant. Various trade names. Usually in the shelf next to all the weed killers. Ag store, not big box store.
HM126

btulloh

HM126

pine

Quote from: John Mc on June 08, 2019, 08:23:55 AM
Quote from: pine on May 30, 2019, 04:05:01 AMRoundup bought at the store in quart sizes almost always has a surfactant already mixed in. When buying at the larger sizes and higher concentration like 41% or 50.2% you will need in most cases a surfactant to achieve best efficacy.


What do you typically use for a surfactant? I don't do much foliar spray, but when I do, it's generally watered down from a jug of 41% or 50.2%. What have you found to be easiest and most effective?

Is a surfactant helpful when doing cut stump applications? I had always thought it made no difference for that, since the surface is freshly cut and "open", so have not added anything.
@John Mc
I use several different ones depending upon what I am trying to do, the chemicals I am using, and the conditions and precipitation in the forecast.  
Having said that I really like LI700 from Loveland products. It works really well with glyphosate.  I probably use it more frequently than any other.
R-11 is also a good surfactant and in some situations MSO is a great one to use.
As to stump cut treatment and frill/hack and squirt I use triclopyr amine cut with water or triclopyr ester mixed with diesel and just paint the stump within a VERY short time after the cut.  I have used glyphosate but it is not as effective as the others and don't like it for that purpose.  Picloram which is the generic name for Tordon, works very well also.  
So to answer your question more directly I don't use a branded surfactant on cut stump treatment.

Peter Drouin

So no one knows what it doses to the bees.
There is a big lawsuit on that stuff I read in the newspaper.
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pine

Quote from: Peter Drouin on June 09, 2019, 04:03:54 PM
So no one knows what it doses to the bees.
There is a big lawsuit on that stuff I read in the newspaper.
Supposedly there is no impact on bees.....................  
There are some claims that it impacts the bees gut bacteria and weakens their immune system but there is no strong data as of yet.  Here is a report that has an interesting read.
https://entomologytoday.org/2015/10/13/glyphosate-acetamiprid-low-toxicity-honey-bees-2/

You can get a lawsuit on anything but science is what is worth looking at.  There are some interesting developments in the subject area.

John Mc

Thanks for the info @pine

Unfortunately, here in VT, the only herbicide you can buy without a license is glyphosate.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Southside

Quote from: pine on June 09, 2019, 04:30:58 PM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on June 09, 2019, 04:03:54 PM
So no one knows what it doses to the bees.
There is a big lawsuit on that stuff I read in the newspaper.
Supposedly there is no impact on bees.....................  
There are some claims that it impacts the bees gut bacteria and weakens their immune system but there is no strong data as of yet.  Here is a report that has an interesting read.
https://entomologytoday.org/2015/10/13/glyphosate-acetamiprid-low-toxicity-honey-bees-2/

You can get a lawsuit on anything but science is what is worth looking at.  There are some interesting developments in the subject area.
It's funny how much faith is put in science when time and time again it has been proven that science is often influenced by dollars, as in who is paying for the study.  Take DDT or Thalidomide for example, the science said it was safe at the time, peak oil - whoops they missed that one.  The whole global warming, climate change, whatever it is called today debate, "science says" - then the other science says just the opposite.  Ever see the video of the 5 service members who stood under an atomic bomb when it detonated just to prove to the public there was "nothing to worry about"?  Do you know what eventually happened to all of them? Ever hear of the "Demon core" and all the top scientists who literally goofed around with it in the name of science until one day it went critical?  We don't know what we don't know.   
Anecdotal, yes, but I can tell you that my bees did better this spring (10 hives) than they have done in any other year I can recall.  One big change - nobody around could spray - it was too wet to get onto the fields.  All the rain we had last fall and winter actually made for more challenging conditions for the bees, but right now I have more honey than ever before, and have had a pile of swarms and made multiple splits as the hives are plumb full of bees.  I suspect part of it is due to the fact a lot of plants were able to flower given the lack of or eventual late, spraying which provided more food for the bees, but common sense also tells me that not getting covered with an inhibiting herbicide also played a role in survival and reduced hive contamination.      
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bigtrees

OP back here.

Thanks for all of the responses.

My review of using Roundup (glysophate) is mixed so far. Back in Montana, we used some red cap stuff (18%) per the label concentration (6 oz per gallon). Doing the math, that seems to make a concentration of 1 oz glysophate per 128 oz water or .8%. According to my dad, this worked well on native plants and grasses.

Then, here in Seattle, I tried the Roundup using some RoundUp Pro Concentrate (50% glysophate). I mixed 1 oz in 64 fl oz, which would be about .8%. That didn't seem to work fast on the grasses were I sprayed, so I added another oz of concentrate to get the concentration up to 1.6%. Still hasn't worked great on the grasses - maybe 1/3 of them are dying.

Could be that I am impatient, or could be that I am only spraying the top 1/3 of the grass that is exposed (groundcover that I am trying to save covers the rest). I did spray the ground cover in a couple places and it killed that pretty good. Recently I sprayed some mint and some other random plants and it seems to be working well on them.

I think probably the Roundup is working fine, but I am not very patient. I thought that roundup worked in hours and apparently that is wrong information, it works over time but not right away. That's fine, just good for me to know.

I'm new to the managing plant growth and herbicide application. It's something new and fun, but of course, I'm taking great measures to stay safe wearing my PPE, etc.

John Mc

As mentioned earlier, if you are using the 50% concentrate, you may need to add a surfactant for it to be effective in a foliar spray. (The surfactant helps the glyphosate penetrate the surface of the leaf.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

YellowHammer

On my crops, I may not see a significant result in a week, death in two. 
 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

bigtrees

Quote from: John Mc on June 11, 2019, 01:27:05 PM
As mentioned earlier, if you are using the 50% concentrate, you may need to add a surfactant for it to be effective in a foliar spray. (The surfactant helps the glyphosate penetrate the surface of the leaf.)
Good point.

btulloh

The label information will have a chart showing what concentration is required for specific weeds.  It can vary greatly.  There is also a category on there for SPOT SPRAYING that will have a concentration specifically for use in pump sprayers that is sort of compromise on the concentration.  This works well in general but may not be sufficient for tougher species.  There is no one size fits all.  The label will also mention "spray-to-wet" which means that typically the whole plant needs to be wetted with the spray.


ONE IMPORTANT THING TO NOTE:  Now the term ROUNDUP on a label can mean almost anything these days.  It has become a generic trade name by Bayer meaning "something to kill weeds, or possibly insects, or maybe contains fertilizer also".  So a discussion about "Roundup" is different than a discussion about glyphosate.

Read and follow the label for the product you are using, even though it is twenty pages of 4-point type (or smaller).  Get the pdf from the company if, like me, you can't read  the fine print.

The concentration you mentioned for starting sounds a little weak for general spot spraying, but I don't have the label for the product you're using.

Like YH said: visible signs in a week, dead in two weeks (for GLYPHOSATE)

Good luck, stay safe, and read the whole label.


HM126

Woodpecker52

On my open fields I cut them one time at the end of winter to knock back volunteer persimmon other than that the plants are for the birds, bees and butterflies  and fawns.  I NEVER would even consider roundup.  I do not even cut down dead trees since they are used by the woodpeckers and I have pileated ones all over my property.  I remember when you could hear the sound of bobwhite quail all over the countryside I have not heard them in about 10 years some say its because of fire ants and lack of cover from excessive mowing, clean farming etc.  I just think it is sad and at least I can give the animals under my stewartship  a wild unkept place to exist hoping to hear that bob white call again.
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