The Forestry Forum

I don't know if this is the right forum but here goes....

Last week I was approached by a logger that wants to cut hardwoods (maple, red oak, white oak, cherry. ash) from approx 65 ac in 4 parcels.  Some of this bush has been logged approx 25 years ago and other other hasn't been cut since 50 years.  He wants to take more or less everything over 18" diameter and say it will be ready again in 15 years if I don't allow the neighbor to tap it again.  Neighbor has had a maple syrup pipeline in one 15 acre parcel for 7 years and the logger says it has cost me $10,000 in lost value because the wood is now stained.

I told him I was thinking about hiring a forester to mark the trees and he said it was a bad idea because they only ruin your bush.  He said they mark way to many small trees and leave too many big ones and their #1 goal is for them to come back in a few years and charge again for marking.

The logger has given me several references.  I have talked to two of them and both are happy.  They say he pays before he starts falling and he does a good job.  Talked to a forester and he said a diameter limit cut is a bad idea because be may wind up clear cutting small sections where all the trees are mature.  I went to look at a job he did and it seems like he opened the bush up nicely to let sunlight in.  Not clear cut by any stretch.  There is alot of brush lying on the floor but this is the owner's responsibility to clean up.

The logger is offering $30,000 CDN dollars for an estimated 35,000 bdft over approx 65 acres.  The logs are destined for over seas.

Interested in any thoughts, opinions or advice you all may have.

Thanks

boy youve got a hot button question there and i dont think any blanket answer will work.  it could go east or west and you probably wont know until after the timber is gone.  


your age, the forests maturity, and your market timing suggest a pretty big harvest is wise right now, the prices are up and you arent getting younger. but the quality of the wood vs the offer price and local market conditions require an experienced eye to determine with certainty if it is a great, fair, or poor offer.  this is part of what a forestor is for. just like loggers,  there are good, bad and indifferent forestors too.

good on you for the diligence, it will pay off.  youve seen his jobsites, called his references and are still seeking more education.  seriously, good for you. not many do all that and it can cost them dearly.  i think you are just the person to read this exceptional publication.  it is 100 pages and will learn you up fast.  click the brick colored link to download the PDF

Your Woodlands Portfolio - Woodland Owner's Forestry Guide | Tennessee Timber Consultants, LLC (https://tennesseetimber.com/services/woodlands/)

Listen to the forester.

 Ive got a mixed opinion on this, 80%+ of what I buy is private stumpage similar to what you've described so im not going to say you HAVE TO have a forester BUT ive seen so many people get ripped off and your left holding the bag or having a mess. How much is the forester going to charge ? Be my first question. 

Would you blindly invest your retirement money into an account run by someone you have never done business with? Who tells you the other guy is the one after your money, and you really don't know the financial world inner workings? 

That is what you are facing. Could be the best move you ever made. Without someone representing your interest, it could be a disaster.

Personally if I am in unfamiliar territory then I find it worthwhile to hire a professional guide. 

Loggers have their own biases too. They prefer to spend their time cutting and hauling timber they'll make money on. It is hard to go wrong with a reputable forester. It can go wrong without one. In many states foresters are licensed. I don't think loggers are licensed.

Never Never sell on a diameter cut, sell ten tree's a hundred tree's or what you feel should come out . I am not big on foresters ask around and get some other loggers to walk it with you . But again never sell on a diameter cut if you want a woods !

The trees need to be marked and measured prior to agreeing to any sale. Unless you have that data you have no idea what you are selling. Solicit sealed bids, lump sum up front with a damage deposit by invitation only. If you need to ask; than please hire a professional forester(and check their references as well) to mark and manage your sale.

The market is at record high pricing for many species. It would be an excellent time to sell.

Quote from: rank on June 07, 2021, 12:43:39 PM

Last week I was approached by a logger that wants to cut 

Loggers always want to cut. It's what they do. Not a bad thing. What do you want to do? What does your management plan say? I get unsolicited offers all the time.

I see you are in New York.  If you don't have a plan,  I would recommend putting one together.  It assesses what you have, what condition and what your goals are over time.  Nothing wrong with a heavy harvest.  When I here a blanket 18in and up diameter cut that is a red flag to me.  Forester or a good knowledgeable logger could meet your goals.  My personal preference on high quality sales is to put them out to bid.   

A good logger and a good forester would have respect for the others position, they often times are dependent on EACH other. My take is your "logger to be" doesn't respect the forestry aspect of management, but understands the cutting quite well. I'd find another logger if you truly intend to log.

 There is a market for tap hole maple.
The logger needs to find the right buyer. 

Do you not have a state forestry department?  Their general opinions are usually free and the more info you have the better.

I compare raising trees to raising cows.  You have a herd and you want to sell some.  Buyer hears about it and comes in, looks at cattle, and says, I will give you $.50 cents a pound for my choice of head.  You know your cows, but not the market. Do you take them to market and pay a fee, or let the buyer take what he wants at that Price? 

The forester should be the middle man market, he knows the values, he can judge/mark the trees, keeping a good growing manageable stand, he can draw up a contract to protect you and the land.  The contract has to be more than " I agree to sell and you agree to buy".  Are there good loggers?  Yes.  Are there good foresters? Yes. And there are the other kind?  Yes.

Do your research.

Quote from: Bruno of NH on June 07, 2021, 06:04:39 PM
There is a market for tap hole maple.
The logger needs to find the right buyer.

Indeed !   Agree with the general advice to hire a forester.  If the logger does not know there is a market for tapped  maple that is not good, of course he could be right in that you have tap stains in former veneer logs.  
Don't worry if it looks messy on the ground, nature takes care if that.  Better messy than the leave trees scraped.  Very good idea to cut lots of poorly formed trees during the harvest, work for the logger but good for the future of the stand.  

A logger and a forester have different skill sets. Some overlap, and the best guys in both fields have some understanding of the other's work. But someone can be a "good" logger (safe / tidy / efficient) with little knowledge of actual forestry. Like how trees grow and forests regenerate. Likewise a forester should have some knowledge of the mechanics of actual harvesting, simply so they can mark out the harvest / skid trails / leave trees in a way that makes the harvest practical. 


The disagreements might come when a forester marks some "junk" trees for removal. The forester knows they are suppressed / stunted / overcrowded etc, and are never going to be a decent tree. So they mark them for removal, even though they are only "firewood" value. The logger doesn't actually want them, but has to take them anyway. Likewise they may leave a healthy and marketable tree as seed or shelter, knowing it will help the regeneration, and be even larger and more valuable in the next harvest. Hence why a diameter limit cut isn't usually the best option. 


So the OP's logger is probably both honest and competent, as a logger, based on the reference jobs. But is his harvesting plan what's best for the forest (and the OP)? That's the question that a Forester can answer. 

Would you sell your families prized jewels to first guy that came along with cash or would you seek out someone skilled in appraising jewels to determine their value first? Once their value is established you can access weather the offer is a "good deal" or not.

60 Miles north of Rochester So, Northumberland Ontario area I'm guessing?

IMHO I would get a forester in to at least have a conversation
and learn what the markets are doing and what average splits
are paying.    

best
D

Thanks for all the replies.

Update:
I asked the Logger to come and mark the trees he wants.  That should happen the in the next couple of days.  The Forester is supposed to come on Friday so he will be able to see  what the Logger wants.  Hopefully the two agree.

Quote from: dgdrls on June 07, 2021, 08:32:22 PM
60 Miles north of Rochester So, Northumberland Ontario area I'm guessing?

IMHO I would get a forester in to at least have a conversation
and learn what the markets are doing and what average splits
are paying.    

best
D

A little south of there in Picton

Quote from: nativewolf on June 07, 2021, 06:40:24 PM

Quote from: Bruno of NH on June 07, 2021, 06:04:39 PM
There is a market for tap hole maple.
The logger needs to find the right buyer.

If the logger does not know there is a market for tapped  maple that is not good, of course he could be right in that you have tap stains in former veneer logs.  

He says he can sell them.... they just aren't worth as much.  He says they will be stained and the bottom log will be worth less.

He said the woods will be ready to cut again in 15 years.
He also said a hardwood grows approx 1" in circumference per year.
That means if he cuts everything above 18", the trees that he leaves today will be will be 72" circumference (22" diameter in 15 years).
Does 22" seem like right size to cut again?

The logger says you have ~35K bdft of timber he would cut. How will you know that is what he cuts? Who is accounting for the timber that is cut? If you have no way of figuring that out you have two options: 1) Trust the logger with your family's 25-50 years of growing trees or 2) hire someone who can keep track of the cut trees and make sure you get paid.

Clark

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on June 07, 2021, 08:13:38 PM
Would you sell your families prized jewels to first guy that came along with cash or would you seek out someone skilled in appraising jewels to determine their value first? Once their value is established you can access weather the offer is a "good deal" or not.

He's not exactly the first guy to come along.  He's logged for several farmers I know going back to 1992 and nobody has anything bad to say so far.  One of my neighbors hired a forester and put the job out for tender and this Logger won the tender.

Quote from: Clark on June 07, 2021, 10:19:32 PM
The logger says you have ~35K bdft of timber he would cut. How will you know that is what he cuts? Who is accounting for the timber that is cut?

Yep my thoughts exactly.  That's why I asked him today to mark the trees he wants.  Then we know where we stand.

One issue with continual diameter limit cuts is that it harvests the fastest growers and leaves behind the slowest.  


Say youre on a 15" DLC and there are two white oaks at 13.5 inch that get left behind.  At the next DLC one has hit 16 and the other is at 14.  The fast growing healthy tree is harvested prematurely.  The stand retains the tree that grows very slow and probably will die and rot before it hits 20" dbh.   Three consecutive DLC's and youve got a stand full of stalled trees that shoulda been culled.  Size does not correlate to overall health. 

Mike is exactly right cutting by diameter is terrible flawed. Just because a tree is over xxx diameter doesn't mean its mature or that it is done growing. Some of those trees have superior genetics that allowed them to grow bigger and faster than the others. Those are also the trees that I want producing seed for future generations. 

I'd rather see the stand marked down to a certain BA removing the worst trees first to reach your target. After a couple harvests the "worst " trees you are removing will be nice sawlogs.

Quote from: mike_belben on June 07, 2021, 11:32:38 PM
One issue with continual diameter limit cuts is that it harvests the fastest growers and leaves behind the slowest.  


Say youre on a 15" DLC and there are two white oaks at 13.5 inch that get left behind.  At the next DLC one has hit 16 and the other is at 14.  The fast growing healthy tree is harvested prematurely.  The stand retains the tree that grows very slow and probably will die and rot before it hits 20" dbh.   Three consecutive DLC's and youve got a stand full of stalled trees that shoulda been culled.  Size does not correlate to overall health.

Exactly. Tree diameter does not always correlate to age. A small diameter tree could be the same age as one twice its size. So many other factors are ignored when diameter is the only criterion. Akin to taking the best and leaving the rest. Will likely not result in a robust future for the stand.

I have 3 tree cookies to demonstrate the issue with managing to a diameter in mixed deciduous eastern forests.  

Our property is in central PA and first cut around 1812.  They left some of the poorer formed trees as it was remote at the time.  

1st tree is 10 in Chestnut oak 

2nd is 14in  black oak

3rd is 24in red oak

I ask which one is the oldest.  Most answer the 24in red oak.  The oldest is the 10 in chestnut oak.  It was 270 years old and passed over likely 5 or 6 times in the last 200+ years.   The black oak was 90 and you can see it doubled in size when I released it at 75 and the red oak was only 50 years old.  

Lots of variables and management goes a long way over the long term.  

All good points, diameter limit cut = high grading.  Just always.  The best genetics grow the fastest.  In fact, what you want the logger to do is to actually leave the youngest fastest growing trees with the best genetics or those of smaller diameters but with crown of leaves at the top of the canopy of the forest.  You want to remove all the junk first.  If a sugar bush why not leave the sugar maple along for tapping?  that should pay a good lease rate, no?  You want the leave trees to be roughly spaced apart and with a minimum of 3 open sides for the canopy to grow evenly without causing twist in the trunk.  The tree spacing should account for areas of decline in which case small clearcuts are not bad.  If you are removing merchantable trees the first thing to look for is whether or not there is regeneration.   @JBlain (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=31450) has a good data point, that chestnut oak that was 270 years old would never be cut by a logger but is shading the ground, you need that energy (sunlight) on the ground triggering germination and that 10" chestnut oak is never ever going to yield income so cut it and all the ones that look like that and the increase in light in the understory will trigger vigorous germination which should be managed over time to create a strong stand of young trees.  In other words, remove as much of the mid story canopy as you can.  That is best done during the harvest.  

I would not confuse satisfied farmers that sold assets with good long term management of the forest.  The reason why the eastern forest of the US are in such horrible shape is that generations of landowners have been selling the assets rather than generating income.  Asset sales and income generation are very different things and a good harvest generates income while have little or no impact on the asset value.  

Excellent point about genetics.  It's the same way with a herd of cattle but for some reason I didn't relate that concept to trees.

This brings up another question for me......when walking into a forest for the first time, how does a Forester determine which trees of the same species is the faster growing ones?

in time you get an eye for it.  the more trees you cut and look at the more you can correlate outward appearance that gives away large growth rings..  thats what fast growth is.  fat rings.  i made a thread on it not too long ago for the only one i can eyeball correctly, white oak.  

moss, blown out tops, dark color, lots of failed and rotted off epicormic branches, poor form or bunched up spindly tops instead of big spread out brocolli tops.. and certain bark textures can give away the losers.  


like nativewolf basically said, a forest is a soil based growth media fueled by sun.  you weed your garden.  weed your woods too.  if you let a stranger come and pick all the fruits you dont have a garden anymore, do you?  its time to till the greens in and replant when there arent any more fruits on the way.  the cycle time is just a lot longer. but a rotten squash doesnt bring what a fresh soft one does at the market.  same for trees. mature, big, ripe, fresh and cosmetically appealing.  thats what all markets want whether fruit or timber.   dented cans half off and rotten fruit goes to the hogs.  well, junk trees go to the stove. 

it is probably not possible to find a logger who will treat your land better than you would, thats just not their job.  and you will have a very hard time finding an economical way to get someone else to harvest the firewood without just giving it to them at best.  i am sorta in this line of work.

Look at what a diameter limit cut will do to your species distribution.  Install a few plots yourself.  A 1/10th acre circular plot has a radius of 37.24 feet.  Note the species of the "remove" trees above 18 inches diameter and the species of trees that are smaller than that threshold.  Over time, you will progress to the sub-dominant species in your woodlot.  To properly manage, you need a diameter and species distribution for you woodlot.  Remove trees need to come from across this spectrum......not just the cream of the crop.

Wudman

found the thread.  "selecting culls."   hopefully it gets some more action because id like to learn how to eyeball red oaks. 

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=115283.0

Quote from: mike_belben on June 08, 2021, 10:34:43 AM....junk trees go to the stove.

it is probably not possible to find a logger who will treat your land better than you would, thats just not their job.  and you will have a very hard time finding an economical way to get someone else to harvest the firewood without just giving it to them at best.  i am sorta in this line of work.

I've been taking fallen trees out of there for several years and selling them for firewood. One 24" dia log x 10 ft long is about 1/4 cord and worth about $100 CDN split, dried and delivered....approx $80 USD.

Just for a fun comparison, if a 24" x 10' log has 250 bdft and the logger is offering me $.85/bdft, then I get $212 for that log......so about $180 after taxes.  The firewood game is a cash deal so $100 vs $180.  Less work for sure, but still I'm left a little underwhelmed with the price of hardwood logs

The private forester works for you, for his fee.  The logger works for himself, any way he can.  If you want to cut your trees, hire the forester.  Let him put it out for bids. You will be money and satisfaction ahead.

I'd skip the step of having the logger mark it, I think we all know which ones he's going to paint. He's going to take the highest value wood, if that's your goal as well I guess game on. Get a forester and have them set the sale up for you, and they paint it.

If 85cents a foot on the stump doesnt suit you,  try delivering them to the mill for 32cents a foot with a 16 cent share to the landowner.  Might change your perspective.  


Itll only take a few diameter limit cuts to land your woodlot there too.  You can tour tennessee for proof. 

35k ft over 65 acres is either the very best of the best or ? Has this been cut before ? Banging wood or scattered ? This oak job i just moved to is roughly 200ish thousand on 68acres and thats not hammering it. 

Or....He's planning to take 200 thousand ft and paying for 35 thousand. Without a forester he is not going to know.

Quote from: BargeMonkey on June 08, 2021, 07:05:20 PM
35k ft over 65 acres is either the very best of the best or ? Has this been cut before ? Banging wood or scattered ? This oak job i just moved to is roughly 200ish thousand on 68acres and thats not hammering it.

1. Same thing the Forester said.
2. One 15 acre lot was cut by a logger under the previous landowner in the lat '90's I'd guess.  My father brought a portable sawmill into a 30 acre lot back about 1969 and used some timber to build a barn.  The remaining 20 acres I don't know if it's ever been cut.
3. Not sure what you mean here.

Quote from: Gary_C on June 09, 2021, 03:48:34 AM
Or....He's planning to take 200 thousand ft and paying for 35 thousand. Without a forester he is not going to know.

My thoughts as well.  Why I asked him to mark what he wants.  Then when the Forester arrives he can tell me if the bdft is correct and at the same time he can give his opinion on tree selection.

One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

Quote from: rank on June 09, 2021, 06:46:45 AM
One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

My guess is he sees foresters as competition for the wood. Or maybe a competition creator, which is less desirable for him and very desirable for you.

Anyone making the marking decisions can ruin a forest. Ask the forester for references and some pictures of other wood lots he has marked. If he talks about taking out the worst trees, giving room to the well-formed trees and harvesting some of the larger trees he's probably on the right track. Did the logger mention any of those things?

Clark

Rank, you are using your head and asking the right questions. Stay on this path, you're doing ok.

Quote from: Clark on June 09, 2021, 06:59:50 AM

Quote from: rank on June 09, 2021, 06:46:45 AM
One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

My guess is he sees foresters as competition for the wood. Or maybe a competition creator, which is less desirable for him and very desirable for you.

Anyone making the marking decisions can ruin a forest. Ask the forester for references and some pictures of other wood lots he has marked. If he talks about taking out the worst trees, giving room to the well-formed trees and harvesting some of the larger trees he's probably on the right track. Did the logger mention any of those things?

Clark

Normally the forester hires the logger. So if the job is given to the forester to manage, this logger knows he won't get the job.

What he means to say is a forestor will ruin his harvest plan and be a person to answer to that he cant BS his way around like an unknowing landowner.  

Quote from: Clark on June 09, 2021, 06:59:50 AM

Quote from: rank on June 09, 2021, 06:46:45 AM
One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

My guess is he sees foresters as competition for the wood. Or maybe a competition creator, which is less desirable for him and very desirable for you.

Anyone making the marking decisions can ruin a forest. Ask the forester for references and some pictures of other wood lots he has marked. If he talks about taking out the worst trees, giving room to the well-formed trees and harvesting some of the larger trees he's probably on the right track. Did the logger mention any of those things?

Clark

The Logger said thinning out the stand will allow more sunlight in.  He also said he wouldn't completely clear cut areas of larger trees.  He didn't mention anything about taking poor trees away and leaving nice ones though.  I suspect that runs counter to his goals.  However, when I toured a woodlot he cut two years ago, it was obvious he left many nice straight trees standing that were larger than 18".  Why he did that I don't know yet.  Perhaps he didn't want the species. 

Quote from: cutterboy on June 09, 2021, 07:12:22 AM
Rank, you are using your head and asking the right questions. Stay on this path, you're doing ok.

Thank you.  I appreciate the time you all have taken to answer many questions from a dumb Farmer LOL.  To me, a forest and its' crop of trees should be managed with a long term view just like a field of grain of a herd of cattle. At age 54, I don't care if I never see another harvest from these forests.  What matters to me is the health of the crop.  I thought I was doing the right thing by letting nature take it's course and taking only the fallen trees for firewood but now I see there is room for improvement.

Quote from: PoginyHill on June 09, 2021, 07:39:01 AM

Quote from: Clark on June 09, 2021, 06:59:50 AM

Quote from: rank on June 09, 2021, 06:46:45 AM
One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

My guess is he sees foresters as competition for the wood. Or maybe a competition creator, which is less desirable for him and very desirable for you.

Anyone making the marking decisions can ruin a forest. Ask the forester for references and some pictures of other wood lots he has marked. If he talks about taking out the worst trees, giving room to the well-formed trees and harvesting some of the larger trees he's probably on the right track. Did the logger mention any of those things?

Clark

Normally the forester hires the logger. So if the job is given to the forester to manage, this logger knows he won't get the job.

He might get the job yet.  Another farming neigbour hired a Forester and put the job out for tender and this Logger won.  The Forester I spoke to said $30,000 for 35,000 bdft was a very good price.

He might be great. None of us can know without looking at before and after. All we can do is make assumptions from here.   

Heck he might even be a FF member.   I trust that you are a wise enough steward to handle this pretty well with or without a forestor.  There is nothing wrong with not reaping every possible dollar but getting a really good job done. Best price AND best practice are certainly good goals.  


Youre right to see it as a crop.  A pine plantation is like a corn field while a native forest is more like a crowded garden.  Theres relationships and interactions and competititons between everything under the sun.  

If you want really tall skinny clover youd interseed together with a tall straight fast growing crop so it has no choice but to stand tall or die.  Oaks together with poplar is that sort of relationship.  Dense poplar wont allow an oak to stay short and live.  

Quote from: rank on June 09, 2021, 11:25:57 AM

Quote from: Clark on June 09, 2021, 06:59:50 AM

Quote from: rank on June 09, 2021, 06:46:45 AM
One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

However, when I toured a woodlot he cut two years ago, it was obvious he left many nice straight trees standing that were larger than 18".  Why he did that I don't know yet.  Perhaps he didn't want the species.

You are likely closer to the answer than you think. A lot of forest parcels around here you can tell approximately when they were harvested based on the age and species distribution of current trees vs historic market prices and demand, without looking at stumps trails etc. A lot of these folks could probably tell me when some of the nearby Mills closed without any historical knowledge of the area.

I spoke to a 3rd reference today.  This fellow is another farmer that's dealt with the Logger on three cuts since 1984.  He's hired Foresters on two different occasions early on when he was like me....he knew he wanted to treat his woodlot like a sustainable crop but didn't know how.  First experience with the Forester was an excellent one.   He made good money and the junior trees "exploded" after some big ones were taken.

2nd Forester was a bust.  They selected trees not based on "basal area" (whatever that is) with a goal of allowing sunlight in.  There was no market for the trees that were marked.  He paid the Forester $3500 and the highest tender was $4000 so he elected to do nothing.

Now he knows a lot more about the process.  He doesn't use Foresters anymore and trusts the Logger.  I'm paraphrasing him but this is what he told me......"this is a multi generational logging family and they take multiple harvests from the same wood lots over several decades.  They need a quality product for their buyers and they can't stay in business long term if they screw the land owners and ruin the wood lots".

The Logger marked my woodlots today.  We meet tomorrow to see what he marked.
The Forester visits Fri-Sat

Basal area is off a triangle with a set number you're looking for, another way to thin is a set tree count per acre. When I thin hardwoods I shoot for around two to two and half open sides with the first coming out being the dead/diseased, then select the ugly. I've been in fights with foresters over this practice because they're loosing money if you're not making saw logs either.

Quote from: rank on June 09, 2021, 08:33:39 PM
I spoke to a 3rd reference today.  This fellow is another farmer that's dealt with the Logger on three cuts since 1984.  He's hired Foresters on two different occasions early on when he was like me....he knew he wanted to treat his woodlot like a sustainable crop but didn't know how.  First experience with the Forester was an excellent one.   He made good money and the junior trees "exploded" after some big ones were taken.

2nd Forester was a bust.  They selected trees not based on "basal area" (whatever that is) with a goal of allowing sunlight in.  There was no market for the trees that were marked.  He paid the Forester $3500 and the highest tender was $4000 so he elected to do nothing.

Now he knows a lot more about the process.  He doesn't use Foresters anymore and trusts the Logger.  I'm paraphrasing him but this is what he told me......"this is a multi generational logging family and they take multiple harvests from the same wood lots over several decades.  They need a quality product for their buyers and they can't stay in business long term if they screw the land owners and ruin the wood lots".

The Logger marked my woodlots today.  We meet tomorrow to see what he marked.
The Forester visits Fri-Sat

Farmer #3 might be a fine fellow but not whose advice I would follow regarding forest management. Quite likely the stand was not ready for harvest at round two but may have benefitted from some paid TSI. He hired a professional whose stated goal was allowing in light to promote regeneration. Forester 2 gets the blame when in reality he could have been trying to correct an under-harvest in sale #1. Most likely not following through cost the landowner a good bit of regrowth and regeneration of growing stock for potential sale #4 in addition to the $3500 cash wasted. The crooked Beech marked 20 years ago are still worthless.

Quote from: rank on June 09, 2021, 11:33:16 AMI thought I was doing the right thing by letting nature take it's course and taking only the fallen trees for firewood but now I see there is room for improvement.

That's not a "wrong" management policy. The forest will do it's own natural thing and change it's character over time if simply left alone. It will still be a forest, just it might not end up how you hoped. 

Any harvesting or management changes things about how the forest develops. You can manage for short term profit, or long term profit, or wildlife, or aesthetics, or conservation, or any combination. But the thing is you need that plan and an understanding of how your particular forest develops over time. If I do this now, then it will have that effect...  And there is no "One size fits all" model. Climate / soil / local species / what stage you are starting from, all change what's gong to happen in that forest. That sort of complex interaction is why Forestry is a Degree course, coupled with local experience. 

Again I'm not knocking the logger, he's probably honest and fully competent as a logger. But a logger might look at an 18" tree and say, "Yup, that's worth $100, we take that one". Forester looks at the same tree, and says, "Leave that and it will be a $1,000 veneer log in 20 years. Take out those crap trees that are shading it."  See where the conflict sets in?

Do you need $100 now to pay your bills, or leave a $1,000 tree for your kids? Neither answer is "wrong" 

Always treat northern hardwoods like an investment. Collect the interest, don't deplete the principal unless you are ready to close the account

Well......

I walked another 15 acre parcel today that he painted. This hardwood bush was logged pretty hard I'm guessing ~30 years ago by the previous landowner and has never been a sugar bush.  The landowner was a cheap old coot and this looks like he did a liquidation cut.  I counted 79 painted trees measuring 15"-24" DBH x 25'-35' of usable stem.  His offer for this was/is $6000.  I think one of us counted wrong LOL.

This parcel is a disaster I would say.  Lots of space with nothing but 4 ft high twigs.  Someone must have taken everything over 6" dia 30 years ago.  I have no explanation for why there hasn't been more regrowth,  Maybe the Foresters can figure it out.  It's a *DanG shame.

Without knowing species and quality of the marked trees its hard to make heads or tails of the offer.  Could be great or an insult.

Quote from: mike_belben on June 10, 2021, 09:24:20 PM
Without knowing species and quality of the marked trees its hard to make heads or tails of the offer.  Could be great or an insult.

red oak, white oak and hard maple

Sounds like that 15 acre patch should be mowed and let start again. Hard to tell without being there.

With your cut I would get a tally from a forester or the logger etc.. have the stumps painted and get a copy of the mill slips if your not going to do it through a forester. Without knowing him or seeing his work he could be and excellent logger looking out for future harvest and the landowner or he could be taking you for a ride.

I don't care how good of a logger he is (and I am one😁) there is often just not enough incentive monetarily to "do what is right for the forest". We see it all the time where people have poor quality wood that needs help. The wood is not worth much or anything, or your just not going to get anything out. So how are you going to pay for the forestry machines that run at $150/hour? It's a rare landowner who is willing to actually pay to have their woodlot improved. They'll pay big money for mulching/grinding and food plot work, but when trees start coming down they're worth money and they expect to be paid for it. So I guess you could say I see both sides of this, and I certainly don't want to make this logger's motivation seem suspect. I can just guarantee that his motivation at the end of the day is to make money or he wouldn't be in business. In light of that, I feel confident that what he is going to take is not what would be best for the future of your forest. It may be a compromise between what is best and what is profitable. The bottom line is you need to decide what you want out of your forest, and if you are willing to take a lot less money, or even none, to get it there. It sounds like your timber is of a quality high enough that just taking full trees should be profitable, but I don't know your area or markets. 

The old saying goes that if you want a job done right youd better do it yourself.  If you can farm, you can probably log too.  Many here are both. 

If its something youd consider doing, jump on it fast. The money is good and you can presently sell your UGLY trees while keeping your diamonds on the stump to ripen even more.  Good timber will sell in any market but right now trash can be sold.  Since youd have no logger share to pay youd pocket all of it and do fine.   And obviously youd end up with the exact results you want with no fuss or sellers remorse.  


Just something to consider.  If youve got a CDL and truck/ trailer thats a huge leap forward.  I presume you have a decent saw and tractor.  

Funny- because what Mike says is exactly why I got into logging.  There was never a desire to do so, rather it was clear that an opportunity to come out financially better, and achieve the goals I wanted on my own ground were only available if I did it myself.   Not going to say it was easy, made some mistakes along the way, then somehow it morphed into a sawmill operation and now I have more quality timber on my ground than when I started.  

Same here.  Extension forestor said my woodlot was junk needing a 70% haircut.  Well.. Turns out everyone else's little woodlot is highgraded junk too and no one is in the woodlot fixit business.  now im trying to make the economics of repairing highgrades work. 

 The problen I see with this is like 99% of the private jobs I encounter, the landowner wants the most money possible BUT the best possible situation for the woodlot, sometimes those 2 things don't mix. TSI or "Timber stand improvement" work is literally rare here or paid for, if you see a logger show up in a pickup with a chainsaw and a cable skidder throw that idea out the window, this is about cutting good wood and moving, dont confuse the 2 things. I agree with paying a forester sometimes, but like you've said this guy "or company" has been vetted and isn't fly by night. Honestly even from a logger stand point i wouldn't sell wood flat out, sell off % scaled on the landing, it keeps things honest and simple. Ive had landowners literally ride in the log truck, watch the logs dropped off at the mill and watch the check get cut, seen this play out. Right now wood is up, wait 6 months and it maybe a diff circumstance 🤷‍♂️. 

 Can someone try an figure out how much $$ per bf with what numbers have been given? I guessed an average of 45k. Would that = to a little over $.13 bf?

Quote from: rank on June 10, 2021, 09:10:40 PM
Well......

I walked another 15 acre parcel today that he painted. This hardwood bush was logged pretty hard I'm guessing ~30 years ago by the previous landowner and has never been a sugar bush.  The landowner was a cheap old coot and this looks like he did a liquidation cut.  I counted 79 painted trees measuring 15"-24" DBH x 25'-35' of usable stem.  His offer for this was/is $6000.  I think one of us counted wrong LOL.

This parcel is a disaster I would say.  Lots of space with nothing but 4 ft high twigs.  Someone must have taken everything over 6" dia 30 years ago.  I have no explanation for why there hasn't been more regrowth,  Maybe the Foresters can figure it out.  It's a *DanG shame.

Typical result of a "high grade". Selecting the cash trees looks really good at the time. Typically the conversation runs like this:
Logger: "We only cut the trees ready for harvest so in 15 years we can do it again"
Landowner " I got paid $400/tree and the woods looks about the same; in 15 years I will call the guy back and cut it again"
Reality: The logger does a neat and tidy job. In and out fast and cleans up his landing. Everybody is all smiles. In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond. If they do its often with epicormic branches that ruin the log grade and value. You start looking close after the tops are rotted away and you see the little bark patches missing where the skidder tire, cable, or tree length logs bumped it. Woods looks like a park but the larger diameter trees almost all either damaged, hollow, deformed, or low value species. Most of the desirable species will either be suppressed, deformed, or show subtle signs of logging damage from when their cohorts were cut.
Agree that there is little to no incentive for a logger to run around fixing past greed. Two common answers are to clear cut it and let nature fix it or take the job on yourself a firewood tree at a time. The mid story is no problem. The big ugly hollow stuff is dangerous and can do a lot of damage coming down. Often times marked culls are left standing even when marked and included in the sale as they are just a cost to the logger to fell. A good forester will include contract terms that all marked trees must be felled.

Quote from: Ed_K on June 11, 2021, 08:28:52 AM
Can someone try an figure out how much $$ per bf with what numbers have been given? I guessed an average of 45k. Would that = to a little over $.13 bf?

I tried but had a difficult time finding a chart that converts dia x height to bdft of STANDING trees.  anywhere from 12,000 to 17,000 bdft in 79 trees and he's offering $6,000 for that.  That does not compute for me. 

DBH tables

18-20" DBH  form class 78 trees with 24'-32' merchantable height will come in at around 200 bd/tree depending on the scale being used.

80 trees @ 200'+/- 16000ft or .375 on the stump in this example. 

I generally wouldn't buy a job for crew to cut that didn't run at least 3000/ft acre.

Quote from: stavebuyer on June 11, 2021, 10:15:01 AM

Quote from: rank on June 10, 2021, 09:10:40 PM
Well......

I walked another 15 acre parcel today that he painted. This hardwood bush was logged pretty hard I'm guessing ~30 years ago by the previous landowner and has never been a sugar bush.  The landowner was a cheap old coot and this looks like he did a liquidation cut.  I counted 79 painted trees measuring 15"-24" DBH x 25'-35' of usable stem.  His offer for this was/is $6000.  I think one of us counted wrong LOL.

This parcel is a disaster I would say.  Lots of space with nothing but 4 ft high twigs.  Someone must have taken everything over 6" dia 30 years ago.  I have no explanation for why there hasn't been more regrowth,  Maybe the Foresters can figure it out.  It's a *DanG shame.

Typical result of a "high grade". Selecting the cash trees looks really good at the time. Typically the conversation runs like this:
Logger: "We only cut the trees ready for harvest so in 15 years we can do it again"
Landowner " I got paid $400/tree and the woods looks about the same; in 15 years I will call the guy back and cut it again"
Reality: The logger does a neat and tidy job. In and out fast and cleans up his landing. Everybody is all smiles. In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond. If they do its often with epicormic branches that ruin the log grade and value. You start looking close after the tops are rotted away and you see the little bark patches missing where the skidder tire, cable, or tree length logs bumped it. Woods looks like a park but the larger diameter trees almost all either damaged, hollow, deformed, or low value species. Most of the desirable species will either be suppressed, deformed, or show subtle signs of logging damage from when their cohorts were cut.
Agree that there is little to no incentive for a logger to run around fixing past greed. Two common answers are to clear cut it and let nature fix it or take the job on yourself a firewood tree at a time. The mid story is no problem. The big ugly hollow stuff is dangerous and can do a lot of damage coming down. Often times marked culls are left standing even when marked and included in the sale as they are just a cost to the logger to fell. A good forester will include contract terms that all marked trees must be felled.

Yep....the mature trees in this high graded bush are 50-60 ft tall I would guess and spaced 20-60 ft apart.  Canopy completely filled in forest floor completely shaded.

Quote from: BargeMonkey on June 11, 2021, 12:40:15 AMHonestly even from a logger stand point i wouldn't sell wood flat out, sell off % scaled on the landing, it keeps things honest and simple. Ive had landowners literally ride in the log truck, watch the logs dropped off at the mill and watch the check get cut, seen this play out. Right now wood is up, wait 6 months and it maybe a diff circumstance 🤷‍♂️.

I talked to a Forester yesterday that recommended selling a % of mill scale.  He said veneer logs are going for $2300/MBFT picked up at the landing. I think I have decided whatever happens I will sell by weight.  And not by the mill's weight either.  I will run the trucks across the grain elevator scale in town the same way I scale my grain.  I know enough to know that mill weights scales are never in the seller's favor.

Quote from: mike_belben on June 10, 2021, 11:20:48 PM
The old saying goes that if you want a job done right youd better do it yourself.  If you can farm, you can probably log too.  Many here are both.

If its something youd consider doing, jump on it fast. The money is good and you can presently sell your UGLY trees while keeping your diamonds on the stump to ripen even more.  Good timber will sell in any market but right now trash can be sold.  Since youd have no logger share to pay youd pocket all of it and do fine.   And obviously youd end up with the exact results you want with no fuss or sellers remorse.  


Just something to consider.  If youve got a CDL and truck/ trailer thats a huge leap forward.  I presume you have a decent saw and tractor.  

I have 5 saws, 18 farm tractors, 3 highway tractors, 4 flatbed trailers with stake pockets, a CDL but no time LOL.  Falling a 50 ft tree in some of these dense forests is no job for an amateur though.  They catch alot of wind up there.  Plus every one will hang up.  They will all have to be dragged  by the butt until they fall flat.  I need a helicopter.

I would like to do it myself but there is more work even just culling than I can handle.  We will see what the Foresters say when they come in.  Whatever happens, there is no way I am going to let this untouched forest turn into what I saw at the old high grade job yesterday.  

I would also add that many loggers and landowners involved in high grades didn't know enough about forest management to realize that most forests are actually even aged and that you need lots of sunlight for regeneration of most species. They honestly thought that the smaller trees were just younger and would just replace the bigger ones given a little time and space. 

Consulting Foresters generally push for lump sum sealed bid. Is your forester an independent consulting forester or a mill employed procurement forester?

Quote from: stavebuyer on June 11, 2021, 11:08:02 AM
Consulting Foresters generally push for lump sum sealed bid. Is your forester an independent consulting forester or a mill employed procurement forester?

I've spoken to two and neither are employed by a mill I think they are private.  Both were recommended by neighbors who own woodlots. 

QuoteI have 5 saws, 18 farm tractors, 3 highway tractors, 4 flatbed trailers with stake pockets, a CDL but no time (https://forestryforum.com/board/Smileys/default/LOL.gif).  

I understand.  Youve only got one life to live.  Just gotta make the best of it and not get hung up on the little details.  


Regarding hardwood forests theres sorta two ways to manage them.  One is based on me me me and the other is based on the forest forest forest.. Obviously one can straddle the two extremes, and Naturally.. most people are strapped for cash and all are influenced by their self interest.  

Humans and forests have mismatched lifecycles so theres always the concept of where does the owners lifecycle fall in relation to the forest's?  

A take-the-best-now approach ..aka highgrade...is, in my opinion, ME based.  Precisely as stavebuyer explained, it leads to continually declining subsequent harvests until the "forest" that remains is a tree covered wasteland of solar unproductivity with no clear reset date. Its just a perpetual decline and shift to other organic matter without any market demand.  These are routinely subdivided.  If you dont like mcmansions you better be teaching good forestry!  Productive land stays producing and fallow land gets asphalt.  


With managment type 1, the first payout is the best however these are rarely done at peak maturity potential so its not that great.. Because there simply are no magnificent forests waiting to be discovered and logged off anymore.  The old growth is extinct and whats standing is meh.. Average.   So a me harvest produces less money over the life cycle of the stand for the lifecycle of the owner however what ever it does produce is assured to be available while the owner is living. It does not consider ones posterity or the unborn stranger.  one in the hand, settle for less, take what you can get and dont worry about tomorrow type of "management."  Im not judging, its a freeish country.

Thats not management though.. There are no inputs like planting cover crop or liming or manuring or fertilizing for next season like a short rotation crop. Or even learning about trees.  A person who employs high grading practices only knows about the money.  

Highgrade harvest is a purely extractive activity.  I like loggers just fine but theyre cutters, not managers. Its a profession centered on efficient extaction and marketing. It isnt their job to weed your flowerbed so to speak and i would not ask them to.



The other management style is what that landowner guide i linked is about.  It is focused more on the forests gain than its owners immediate gain, and is how one arrives at that "society grows great" quote.  It is for people who somehow dont need money but do need to feel they have done right by the future generation or the stand itself or the planet or whatever their reasonings. I know only ONE standing forest with mature noble species that is not being cut and it is a 3rd gen farm trust where the farmers were the forest managers.  And it is INCREDIBLE to stand in.  Just magnificent.  Twice the ceiling height of the adjoining forests. 5 logs to a limb.. Straight.  Beautiful.  And extremely valuable.

In this situation youre initial harvests are literally weeding operations.  They are labor inputs with no immediate reward.  The rewards are tremendous, but may not go in the accounting ledger until the unborn have houses. It produces an entire stand of supreme winners that are harvested all at once at staggering per/acre volumes of prime fiber.  Then the cycle starts over in an explosion of solar regen.. A sappling jungle of tall thin competitors rqces up like a starter pistol just went off.  

No one really does this and thats why its almost just a fantasy about old men planting trees for after they depart.  


You get to choose, but you dont get to go back and unchoose if you end up cutting the winners first. Its forever as far as your lifetime is concerned.


For those that seem capable, as you do, i advocate for the management of your own forest, no matter how small, with a goal of perfection.  It feels better than the money it will bring...a relaxing free hobby right in your own yard.  The thing i reserve for myself as a day off when im burned out on everyone and everything else.  There is no narrow market timing window on management type 2.  It will sit and wait patiently for you.  Little here, little there is fine. Day by day the results unfold.

"..... In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond."

What is the solution to this?  Cut some trees every 5 years once the canopy closes? Sounds like this is the purpose of a basal area cut.  Also sounds like a DIY job because not many loggers would want such a small job?
 
EDIT: Sorry I screwed the quote function up

QuoteWhatever happens, there is no way I am going to let this untouched forest turn into what I saw at the old high grade job yesterday.  

Amen!

Quote from: rank on June 11, 2021, 11:49:02 AM
"..... In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond."

What is the solution to this?  Cut some trees every 5 years once the canopy closes? Sounds like this is the purpose of a basal area cut.  Also sounds like a DIY job because not many loggers would want such a small job?
 
EDIT: Sorry I screwed the quote function up

It is easy to do.  There are some glitches you will get used to in time.  Losing lengthy posts before you finish is the most chaffing.


Youve gotta get an eye for which trees are responding to release and which arent. Remove the losers.


When youve got enough light in to support continual replacement, You wont be able to walk through the regen.  There will be some degradation of the remaining mature trees from epicormic branching and that takes some time to figure out how to deal with, how to minimize etc. 


Not all trees will sprout trunk branching when released -for whatever reason- so when possible you want to favor keeping those, as they are more likely to produce a veener than any other.

Quote from: mike_belben on June 11, 2021, 11:43:41 AM

The other management style is what that landowner guide i linked is about.  It is focused more on the forests gain than its owners immediate gain....... It is for people who somehow dont need money but do need to feel they have done right by the future generation or the stand itself

This one is me.  With firewood at $400/cord, and approx 400 acres of wooded land and probably 10 miles of fence row trees, I literally could generate $20,000+ per year for the rest of my life just from selling deadfall and culls. Ruining a forest for a couple extra bucks is not a priority.

 smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup smiley_sun

Quote from: rank on June 11, 2021, 11:49:02 AMWhat is the solution to this?  Cut some trees every 5 years once the canopy closes? Sounds like this is the purpose of a basal area cut.  Also sounds like a DIY job because not many loggers would want such a small job?

If you aren't managing trees with some amount of shade tolerance then you can't fix that issue. What has been said here is largely true, suppressed and poorly formed trees hanging out in the mid-story are not typically any younger than the overstory trees. However, if you can get into the site repeatedly (every 12-20 years) and create small canopy gaps the shade tolerant species can fill those in.

This has been done in northern hardwoods, oak/hickory forests, white pine and even western conifers (to a lesser extent). The key is to create a gap large enough to allow sunlight in but not so large that it is a miniature clear cut. In northern hardwoods that is often ~1/10th to 1/5th of an acre in size. The size of that gap is similar in size to several overstory tree canopies.

Clark

I  get all what been said here, a lot of good advice. And I appreciate Rank's desire to do the right thig... but, you can over complicate anything, and you can just keep getting opinons in a public forum.

The logger that has been working with him seems ok, good references, good history... he's probably ok after checking him out. The forestor is not a bad idea either, get those two to come together and let it happen.

All I'm saying, is that Rank sounds like a intelligent,sucessful guy with a lot going on... just don't let it stress you out.

Why would you sell sawlogs on weight? Where is the incentive to cut and buck for higher grades. By weight a #3 is worth the same as a #1 to landowner. 
When I was buying logs for the sawmill if somebody wanted me to buy on weight I would have taken the #3 price per mbf and converted it to $/ton  and bought everything at that price. Because without looking at each log I would have to assume they were the worst. Then I would unload the load and my eyes would light up at the #1 logs bought a rock bottom price. 

Quote from: mike_belben on June 11, 2021, 11:43:41 AMIn this situation youre initial harvests are literally weeding operations.  They are labor inputs with no immediate reward.  The rewards are tremendous, but may not go in the accounting ledger until the unborn have houses. It produces an entire stand of supreme winners that are harvested all at once at staggering per/acre volumes of prime fiber.  Then the cycle starts over in an explosion of solar regen.. A sappling jungle of tall thin competitors rqces up like a starter pistol just went of

That's how things were managed in Europe / Japan etc in days gone by. The forest plan extended over 100+ years. Sugi (Japanese cedar) was tended and harvested / thinned over the years so they actually ended up with the 200 year old giants. So they might have started out with 500 trees in a stand, and remove a few each generation until finally harvesting the final (and best) of them. 

But it takes a very long term view to manage a forest for your grand kids retirement fund. :)

It's interesting studying the different forest dynamics over time, and how human action changes things (for better or worse depending on your point of view) . The species, dynamics and development of the local native forests are very different to the Nth American types. The areas that have never been harvested (mostly National Parks) are basically "pre-human intervention". If the land is clearcut and left alone (doesn't happen any more) it will soon regenerate "A forest". Like Mike describes, saplings will sprout up into a veritable jungle of new growth, but it will be completely different composition to the original forest. Faster growing and full sun loving species will soon form a canopy, but none of the big shade tolerant species, that actually need the shelter of an established forest to even get started. 

The climax forest locally is shade tolerant species that can live for decades as suppressed saplings under the canopy. Then when an old tree dies / falls it opens a light tunnel, and those saplings that are now 10-15ft tall have a head-start on the faster growing light lovers. There are some species that straddle the divide, and can be early colonisers AND climax forest trees as well. 

So there is an area of forest (now a State Park), where ~1/2 was logged maybe 60 years ago. Before the logging of native species was heavily regulated. So you drive down' the road and through this lush forest, thick with trees and lots of bird life, so a pretty cool forest. But no big trees towering out of the canopy, and nothing worth harvesting. Get around a corner and you drive into the untouched area, and there are centuries old Rimu that might be ~70ft to the first branch and 4ft DBH. That's what the loggers harvested from the other area. 

Will the logged forest recover? Of course, the rimu saplings will be sprouting under the canopy there now. Give it another 500 years and you probably wont tell them apart. But the management strategy between the NZ and US "native" forest would be very different. 

And that's why NZ went to plantation forestry. The local species simply grow too slowly. 3-400 years for a Rimu or Kauri to mature. Beautiful wood, but ain't no body got time for that.:D  Mixed blessing, as we have plenty of Radiata Pine to build houses / make paper / sell to China etc. So "Forestry" is a significant industry here. But the real nice Native woods are hard to come by and expensive. They can still be harvested by permit from private land, but that's not a large area of forest, and with a 200+ growth cycle, your sustained management plan can't cut many tree per year. I believe a local guy had 1,000 acres, and his management plan was about 5 trees a year. Mill in the bush with a Lucas and get the boards hauled out by chopper. That was all he needed to live on. 

That sort of stuff is why "Forestry" differs from "Logging". The fields overlap, but the priorities are different. Also you don't need a Degree to learn about forestry for your own personal enlightenment / forest management. You need a degree if you want to actually Work as a Forester, but if you want to just learn the subject to better manage your own trees, go for it. 

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on June 11, 2021, 10:20:24 PMWhy would you sell sawlogs on weight? Where is the incentive to cut and buck for higher grades. By weight a #3 is worth the same as a #1 to landowner.

True, only works if the logs are sorted and graded before they go on the truck. If you have different grades and species, who knows what's really in the load? Could be $50 a ton firewood, or $250 a ton #1 saw logs. 

Locally logs are sold by the ton, but it's all pine, and each load will be a certain grade. Sorting happens at the landing, then the loads go to whoever is paying best for that grade on that week. 

Not going to happen with a small harvest of mixed species. 

It would be hard to get an entire load of one species and grade to make a truck load in a mixed northern hardwoods stand especially in warm weather when mold and stain happens quickly. So loads would almost certainly be mixed species and grades making it nearly impossible to sell by weight. 

No sense swimming against the tide.  Deviating from normal practices will likely cause buyers to pad their risk with lower rates to offset the potential for conversion error.

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on June 11, 2021, 10:20:24 PM
Why would you sell sawlogs on weight?

Because I don't trust BDFT estimates.  For all I know, the Forester knows the Logger and they work together to under estimate the BDFT and split the profit.  Once the trees are painted and the Logger(s) bid on the job knowing the logs will be weighed across an independent scale certified by the Dept of Weights and Measures, there is no more tree selection to be done.  Yes there might be different species and different grades but can't they factor that into their bid when they walk through?  Cut, weigh, pay.  I have done the same when buying standing hay...I estimate 200 bales of alfalfa here and 50 bales of grass.  The alfalfa bales will weigh about 800 lbs and the grass will weigh about 850 and I offer accordingly.

Am I missing something?

@rank (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34721) 
Out here our scale is done by a third party from the mills and loggers, normally most of us work on a split or percentage it's not common to see someone buy wood ahead of time. We'll see weight out here when a mill has a guaranteed amount of wood say 1/2 million board feet or something or a certain amount per day with x amount of random roll out scaled load per day.

Quote from: Skeans1 on June 12, 2021, 12:42:46 PM
@rank (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34721)
Out here our scale is done by a third party from the mills and loggers, normally most of us work on a split or percentage it's not common to see someone buy wood ahead of time. We'll see weight out here when a mill has a guaranteed amount of wood say 1/2 million board feet or something or a certain amount per day with x amount of random roll out scaled load per day.

Yes I know an independent Forester is supposed to be independent but there is many a slip between the cup and the lip.

Quote from: rank on June 12, 2021, 12:53:30 PM

Quote from: Skeans1 on June 12, 2021, 12:42:46 PM
@rank (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34721)
Out here our scale is done by a third party from the mills and loggers, normally most of us work on a split or percentage it's not common to see someone buy wood ahead of time. We'll see weight out here when a mill has a guaranteed amount of wood say 1/2 million board feet or something or a certain amount per day with x amount of random roll out scaled load per day.

Yes I know an independent Forester is supposed to be independent but there is many a lip between the cup and the lip.

This is separate from foresters or the mills or the loggers all these guys do is scale logs nothing else.

A forester is also a witness to the results.

When it comes to stumpage over here most are going with a percentage from scale slips/mill payment. The mills pay by weight. There are so many variables with trees for volume calculations that weight seems ok. Then one could argue about the moisture in the wood varying by season. 

Last sale I cut was probably 6 species and 4 grades per species (relatively few compared to many sales). Each species and grade a different price. So to sell by weight you would have to sort by species and grade and then weigh separately. Of the 100 foresters, loggers, mill scales, etc that I know I don't think any of them would want to go thru that hassle.

I would never sell or buy grade hardwood by weight too many variables.

Could be 250 per mbf for pallet and 2500 per mbf for veneer but they both weight the same.

It's about 50 50 here buying lump sum bids on forester tallied jobs or cutting on percentage of mill tally.

Either way per thousand unless it's like down south pine sorted for grade per ton is what pretty much everyone does.

No way (or weigh lol) that is going to work with mixed grades and species, unless you are trusting their percentage of said grades and species on the stump. 6 in one hand half a dozen in the other type of situation. We typically buy stumpage 2 ways up here. The main one is known as "consumer scale". There are different details, but for the most part a forester will cruise the stand, and estimate the amount of timber (typically in cords up here). Say it's a 1500 cord aspen clearcut. We will bid a price per cord for the sale, if we get the winning bid with most government agencies we then have to make a down payment of 10% of the total estimated amount. When we open the sale, the rest of the sale must be paid for before harvesting can commence. Before we haul any wood, there is a lockbox and ticket books place on the landing. The tickets are numbered, the trucker fills one out with what mill it is going ton species and estimated volume. A stub for the ticket stays in the book, one part goes in the lock box, and the corresponding part goes to the mill. Those all have to line up ot you have an issue. At the end of the sale, you "settle up". If the sale actually produced 1600 cords, you have to pay for another 100 cords of stumpage. If it was only 1400 cords, the landholder pays you back for 100 cords of stumpage. It is generally considered the fairest to all parties up here. 
  The second type is "lump sum" or more commonly called "SOAV", sold on appraised volume. The forester cruises it, estimates volume and the sale is bid on. If it is supposed to be 1000 cords and it overruns 300 cords, you made out well. If it underruns 200, you had a bad day.

Quotebut there is many a slip between the cup and the lip.

:D


Ive not heard it quite that way before.. Clever. 


How you feel about selling on shares then?  It shouldnt be too hard for you to keep tabs on how many logs on a load and how many go out. Wax pencil if you really have to.   I think most of my scale tickets had log tally on them. 

Tonnage doesn't work on good hardwood, big mill out in Central NY tried it for a while. You put this out to bid its basically in the foresters hands, ive yet to EVER cut a job that was short on volume, last one had 23k ft of over run, sorry 🤷‍♂️. Forester deals with most landowners 1-2x, loggers all the time and if they get a reputation for being short no one buys the sale, or it goes cheap depending on wood market, see where this is going ? Sell it scaled on the landing on %, safest easiest way. 

Mills from TN south buy quite a bit of hardwood by the ton. Honestly I don't know how they pay what they pay and survive with the crap that gets nested in but they do.

This AM I posted a conversation I had with the logger yesterday.  Did I screw it up or was it deleted?

There was some sort of server problem with the forum this morning. It was down for fifteen minutes or so. Your post must have gotten lost as a result. Not your fault, just unfortunate timing. 

I think the ref just threw all the flags he had onto the field.  If you don't trust the logger or the forester, or think something is funny, then find other parties to work with.  You will NEVER be happy with what happens if you start down this road believing the two are out to get you - be that accurate or not as I am not defending either party or claiming either is dirty, rather you are not comfortable with this transaction.  

Logger called yesterday.....

Logger: Did you make up your mind?  I need to know where I'm at with my quotas.
Me: No but I walked the 15 ac parcel that was logged a couple decade ago.  How many trees did you mark in there?
Logger: I don't know
Me: I thought you might have kept a running tally as you painted.  I counted 79 trees around 15" to 26" diameter x 25-35 ft of saleable stem
Logger:  Seems about right.
Me: At 200 bfdt/tree x 79 trees that is 16,000 bdft and you're only offering about $6000
Logger:  There's only about 160 bdft per tree on average.  12,000 bdft
Me:  What scale is that?
Logger: Doyle
Me: So you're offering 50 cents a bdft for that tract?
Logger: That's right.  I'm worried because the ground is shale the hearts might be big and then they're not good for veneer.
Me: That's works out to way less than what I get for firewood at $400/cord.  And for all 53 acres, you're offering $35,000 for your estimate of 35,000 bdft?
Logger:  That's right.
Me:  You must be offering way above $1000/1000 for the sugarbush tract to average it out
Logger: I'll increase my offer to $38,000 but I'm really sticking my neck out now.
Me: I'll let you know

Quote from: BargeMonkey on June 12, 2021, 02:44:23 PM
...ive yet to EVER cut a job that was short on volume, last one had 23k ft of over run, sorry 🤷‍♂️. Forester deals with most landowners 1-2x, loggers all the time and if they get a reputation for being short no one buys the sale, or it goes cheap depending on wood market, see where this is going ?

^this....probably a case of Canadian Club changes hands too.  I don't know much about selling timber but a horse trader is a horse trader is a horse trader.

He's paying for standing timber, not cut and split firewood. If you can get $400/cord for firewood on the stump, I'd sell it all as firewood. Up here firewood stumpage is $5-$20/cord at the most, the only value in firewood is the labor you put into it. 

Quote from: barbender on June 12, 2021, 10:44:07 PM
He's paying for standing timber, not cut and split firewood. If you can get $400/cord for firewood on the stump, I'd sell it all as firewood. Up here firewood stumpage is $5-$20/cord at the most, the only value in firewood is the labor you put into it.

What one of my neighbors does.  He sells veneer logs and the rest is firewood at $400.  I bet he's got a 60 cord stack.  Sells out every year.  I don't know how he does it to be honest....no processor.

....Oh yeah I forgot that's $400 after taxes so at $1000/1000 all a fella is saving is labor.

If your in Ontario make sure you donot have a tree bylaw as most places here do , basal cutting works if done correct as you got to leave alot of the bigger trees to meet the basal area in the cut , 35,000 feet of logs on 65 acres is very few trees and would be a long ways between trees and that would pretty much mean he is high grading , If your in the Picton area your down close to the Lake and the red oak is pretty good close to the lake so the other tree types should be as well , 15 inch DBH is pretty small as with our tree bylaw you would not be allowed to cut that , in hard maple veneer if he is only getting $2300/1000 then he is off by lots , that price is not far off top end of the sawlog price and veneer goes for alot more than that if its good stuff , $4 to $5 a ft is normal for hard maple veneer , one thing I do question is why anyone would be cutting good hard maple or white oak or even red oak at this time of year in this heat , its going to cost you money to do that 

Quote from: ehp on June 12, 2021, 11:53:36 PM
If your in Ontario make sure you donot have a tree bylaw as most places here do , basal cutting works if done correct as you got to leave alot of the bigger trees to meet the basal area in the cut , 35,000 feet of logs on 65 acres is very few trees and would be a long ways between trees and that would pretty much mean he is high grading , If your in the Picton area your down close to the Lake and the red oak is pretty good close to the lake so the other tree types should be as well , 15 inch DBH is pretty small as with our tree bylaw you would not be allowed to cut that , in hard maple veneer if he is only getting $2300/1000 then he is off by lots , that price is not far off top end of the sawlog price and veneer goes for alot more than that if its good stuff , $4 to $5 a ft is normal for hard maple veneer , one thing I do question is why anyone would be cutting good hard maple or white oak or even red oak at this time of year in this heat , its going to cost you money to do that

No bylaw here so a Forester told me.  About a mile from the lake.  Why does cutting in the heat cost money?  

Hardwood logs stain and check in the hot weather and the value plummets.

This suggests that your logger may not have connections to the highest possible buyers.  Mid summer is not when the top tier of logs gets harvested because they wont be top grade when they get to the mill.

You said that there was a number of acres that haven't been cut in 50 yrs. In that case there has to be some veneer in there. The only way to log this and get what you figure it's worth is to do a scaling on the landing and sell on shares 50% - 50% for log run and 60% - 40% for the veneer, maybe if the veneer is really good 70% - 30%. I'd also scale it by the international 1/4" rule. When I was logging and the land owner seemed like they didn't trust me this is how I offered to buy the sale. Here in Ma. you can have the state forester come and do an estimate (and it's free) of how many MBF should be cut. We also have to get a permit from the state if the BF is over 25k bf or 50 cords.

I would guess your logger is selling to Amex in Quebec , the top paying places for hard maple have been shut down for about 2 or 3 weeks now on taking hard maple cause of the heat, it cracks the logs real fast and the bark comes off the trees easy which is a real bad thing . Logger went from $30,000 to now $38,000 so that tells me there has to be veneer there and its mainly hard maple and white oak, red oak even in veneer your going to have a hard time paying a $1 a ft cause logger will loose hard on that price , how can a logger give you a price without knowing how many trees and type and scale BEFORE saying the price, thats a Big red flag to me .  Make sure no tree bylaw cause on the other side of the 401 there is a tree bylaw east and west of you , I have looked at bushes in both of those places and checked and yes there was one in those bush lots . You do not cut good timber again till fall when it cools down and the log price jumps up 

Quote from: ehp on June 13, 2021, 07:39:21 AM
... how can a logger give you a price without knowing how many trees and type and scale BEFORE saying the price, thats a Big red flag to me .

It gives me pause for sure.  I've asked 2x how many trees he marked and both times he said he didn't know.  I'm not a logger but if I was, I would have a notebook with me as I marked and I would note species, DBH and stem length of every tree I marked.  If I had a good GPS I might even save coordinates of each tree.  I feel like he doesn't want to tell me how many trees there are because it will show that he painted BDFT is more than what he says.  I would count them myself regardless of what I was told, but to not tell the landowner how may trees and expect to get  the job?  I'm guessing if this works, he deals mostly with older folks that can't walk the bush.

That's interesting info about the summer heat.  He said he wanted to be there in August.  Is the staining and checking done from cutting in the heat or will the heat damage a log if it was cut in the cool temps and sits at the landing during the heat?

it is possible that he offers good enough money for landowners to say "cha-ching, lets do it." and leaves the job nice enough for them to be happy afterwards, and makes enough on the spread to not have to keep a tally.  you can do business like that for decades and have a pretty decent reputation.  when my checking account was fat i didnt keep a check register because i knew i wasnt coming close to overdrawing.  If i was gonna cut your stand with no oversight i wouldnt have to keep a tally either.  Need to make more money, just take more trees.


a walk through the woods to estimate the size, species, quality and count per acre.. extrapolate x the number of acres.. hes got a dollar per acre local average number in his head from experience and is saying ill give 30% of the estimated proceeds. okay.. 35%.. okay 38% but thats cutting it close.  with no forestor marking the sale he just has to monitor his slips and if there isnt enough money in the piggy bank, cut some more of your trees to come out where he needs to. who is there to stop him from bringing the 16" diameter limit down to 15" in order to make it profitable if there is no forestor and the owner doesnt oversee?  Once the logs are hauled off, the stump wont tell if a few really clean 14" DBH trees went along for the ride too.  Stand on the low side and bend your knees a little.. That 14 can be a 16.

not passing judgement or whatever.. but i think thats how a lot of small lots are cut when the landowner just has to say "yes" to an offer.  the logger can reach deeper into the absentee landowners woodlot to make it pay and the landowner can still be smiling at the teller window.


in stumpage, the sensible logger has to pad his risk that many of the trees that look great on the stump will have defect that knocks them down in grade.  if he pays #1 in advance for logs that pay him #2 he will go out of business.  so that padding, that financial buffer, takes the form of reduced percentage offers to account for damage and defect and loss of grade.  buying on the stump puts the risk onto the logger because you are paid upfront, no risk to you if he buys standing pretty junk full of fencewire and bullets

if you want a percent without padding, youve got to take the risk-ride with him and go on shares.  every nice tree that hits the ground and busts apart or is hollow, you both eat half the disappointment sandwich together, not just him.  your logs are either sold on the landing for a percent split, or the mills that are buying write 2 checks, one to you and one to him.  

beware that without establishing a basis you are paying tax on 100% of your cut.  

Interesting how I look at trees everywhere I go now.  I was planting some rented ground yesterday that had a hardwood forest on it.  I looked at the forest closer yesterday than in previous years.  It appeared to me all the trees were similar in size.  From a distance I'd guess 12" to 15" x 30 ft to the tree top.  I texted a the neighbor and former owner to ask if it was clear cut.  Interesting answer.....previous owner sold the farm to him then the seller clear cut the woods after the deal was made.  This was about 35 years ago I think.  Property has changed hands 4x since then.  That forest looks much nicer than my forest that was partially logged about the same time (probably the same logger went through the area at that time).

Quote from: rank on June 13, 2021, 09:18:22 AM
That's interesting info about the summer heat.  He said he wanted to be there in August.  Is the staining and checking done from cutting in the heat or will the heat damage a log if it was cut in the cool temps and sits at the landing during the heat?

in summer the insects are flying and boring and egg laying.  the fungus and bacteria are thriving and feeding on woody materials.  and the blazing sun is rapidly drying one side of the log faster than the other causing it to shrink, twist and crack apart. summer is a time of rapid decomposition of organic matter.  

look at a compost pile.. it stalls in winter.  gives you time to harvest, transport, pile and process the logs into lumber before loss of grade.

a plan for august does not bode well for top dollar.  it excludes any exporting since those cans are like 130* and full of humidity.  its a good time for cutting out firewood.

Quote from: rank on June 13, 2021, 09:36:22 AMprevious owner sold the farm to him then the seller clear cut the woods after the deal was made.  This was about 35 years ago I think.  Property has changed hands 4x since then.  That forest looks much nicer than my forest that was partially logged about the same time (no doubt by the same logger).

nature can fix a clear cut faster than any other human operation.  a highgrade is the slowest thing to repair. well.. other than maybe strip mining or quarrying.   centuries if a severe storm or fire doesnt come first.  the species mix will likely change forever from highgrading.  oaks and hickories will be replaced by shade tolerant species native to the region.

Quote from: mike_belben on June 13, 2021, 09:34:11 AM
it is possible that he offers good enough money for landowners to say "cha-ching, lets do it." and leaves the job nice enough for them to be happy afterwards, and makes enough on the spread to not have to keep a tally.  you can do business like that for decades and have a pretty decent reputation.  when my checking account was fat i didnt keep a check register because i knew i wasnt coming close to overdrawing.  i could look at a nearby woodlot and probably do the same if my margin (thei was thick.  


a walk through the woods to estimate the size, species, quality and count per acre.. extrapolate x the number of acres.. hes got a dollar per acre local average number in his head from experience and is saying ill give 30% of the estimated proceeds. okay.. 35%.. okay 38% but thats cutting it close.  with no forestor marking the sale he just has to monitor his slips and if there isnt enough money in the piggy bank, cut some more of your trees to come out where he needs to. who is there top stop him from bringing the 16" diameter limit down to 15" in order to make it profitable if there is no forestor and the owner doesnt oversee?

not saying its good or bad or righteous or evil or whatever.. but i think thats how a lot of small lots are cut when the landowner just has to say "yes" to an offer.  the  logger can reach deeper into the absentee landowners woodlot to make it pay.


in stumpage, the sensible logger has to pad his risk that many of the trees that look great on the stump will have defect that knocks them down in grade.  if he pays #1 in advance for logs that pay him #2 he will go out of business.  so that padding, that financial buffer, takes the form of reduced percentage offers to account for damage and defect and loss of grade.  buying on the stump puts the risk onto the logger because you are paid upfront, no risk to you if he buys standing pretty junk full of fencewire and bullets

if you want a percent without padding, youve got to take the risk-ride with him and go on shares.  every nice tree that hits the ground and busts apart or is hollow, you both eat half the disappointment sandwich together, not just him.  your logs are either sold on the landing for a percent split, or the mills that are buying write 2 checks, one to you and one to him.  

beware that without establishing a basis you are paying tax on 100% of your cut.  

Yes I think that's the business model.  I don't think he expected to deal with me.  He originally spoke to my 82 yr old father.  He didn't expect anyone to count painted trees.  He doesn't know that I'll be there when he logs.  In fact, he seemed surprised when I asked him to paint the trees he wanted.  I expect he will write me off as too hard to deal with.

And this is a good point about the tax implications.  I probably shouldnt sell anything until I get the tax angle covered, which may take a tax year.

Quote from: mike_belben on June 13, 2021, 09:37:19 AM

Quote from: rank on June 13, 2021, 09:18:22 AM
That's interesting info about the summer heat.  He said he wanted to be there in August.  Is the staining and checking done from cutting in the heat or will the heat damage a log if it was cut in the cool temps and sits at the landing during the heat?

in summer the insects are flying and boring and egg laying.  the fungus and bacteria are thriving and feeding on woody materials.  and the blazing sun is rapidly drying one side of the log faster than the other causing it to shrink, twist and crack apart. summer is a time of rapid decomposition of organic matter.  

look at a compost pile.. it stalls in winter.  gives you time to harvest, transport, pile and process the logs into lumber before loss of grade.

a plan for august does not bode well for top dollar.  it excludes any exporting since those cans are like 130* and full of humidity.  its a good time for cutting out firewood.

Hmmm.  I see.  So the elm, oak, maple and hickory logs I set aside 2 years ago for use as saw logs are not saleable now and I should plan on sawing them for my own use.  Pretty much figured that anyway

there will likely still be some salvageable utility wood in there for around the farm.   id like to think we are not in such a shortage crisis that mills start buying 2 yr old logs.  

Quote from: mike_belben on June 13, 2021, 10:03:36 AM
there will likely still be some salvageable utility wood in there for around the farm.   id like to think we are not in such a shortage crisis that mills start buying 2 yr old logs.  

I've used some for trailer decking.  The dump truck guys are always looking for box extensions.  I need some pillars for my front porch.  The kids and I made a sledge hammer handle last week using their Gr Gr Grandfathers draw knife.  I had a neighbour saw some 2 yr old red oak and hickory logs for me last year.  They turned out perfect so far as I could tell.

Its the fresh cut logs that split and its the correct time of year for that to happen. Once the sap starts to run lots of veneer mills quit buying . Take a nice high grade hard maple today and pull the bark off it and leave it out in the sun for a month then go saw it into boards and you will see very fast why no one cuts high grade right now . The veneer mill does not want it at all.    I live where the tree bylaw is brutal but it has to be to have timber cause 1 wrong logger will take 100 years of growth to get timber back thats worth something and I can promise you if you cut everything to 15 inch DBH you will not be back cutting in 15 years unless your cutting firewood or pallet grade .  

Rank I have logs in the pile tha old and older, that there is plenty of good lumber in. The things that would keep it from making good grade for a mill buyer are borer holes, and end checking that extends about 4-6" on each end.You end up with boards shorter than 8' if it was cut at 102" once you get the checking trimmed off. Any white hardwoods will be stained which means that it will just end up as pallet grade for a commercial mill. A small mill can mill and market that kind of stuff to niche markets effectively, but you won't sell truck loads of stained hardwood to commercial mills for anything but pallet likely. 

I have a pile of debarked hardwood logs that were piled up a foot off the ground for a desperate barn frame in 2017 and 2018 that never happened.

This fall i expect to be opening a few up on my chainsaw mill to see if there is any reason not to firewood them all.  Probably 2" trailer decking and pig pen planking.  Burn the rest.

But what were they . Lower grade doesn't do the same as high grade veneer . I have seen high grade turn into 3 or 4 pieces from checking . If your log has zero defects and is fast growing the log has nothing to hold it together so it splits from the sun and heat . If I get a high grade I carry the S to pound in the end of the log on skidder and log gets them as fast as the tree hits the ground .  . I have also cut the logs in 3 log lengths  long then cut them up into logs at the mill . Good ash we do that all the time cause they check brutal from the heat or sun .  ..  all I'm saying is think about what your doing . 35000 feet on 65 acres is pretty much 500 or so feet per acre so that 2 trees or maybe 3 trees per acre and thats very low .  I see this kind of cutting by guys everyday . Make the logger mark every tree he is going to cut and check him while he is cutting .  Its pretty easy to win a bid then cut 25% more trees and make money 

I walked the sugarbush parcel today.  I counted ~175 painted maple and oak over a approximate 22 acres.  I'd guess avg size 22" DBH x 30 ft stem = 48,000 doyle bdft + 16,000 bdft at the other 15 acre parcel = 64,000 bdft over 37 acres.  He left some nice hardwoods but there's going to be alot of 40-60 ft basswood and shag bark hickory trees left if the logger gets his way.  

From what I can see....and I think some of you have said this already...... if over the next 10 years of so, a fella just started with all the beautiful ash trees that everyone says will be dead from the emerald ash borer in a couple years, then took the mishapen hardwoods and a select few big basswoods, just that alone would provide sunlight for the 10 ft to 20 ft maples and oaks that are in there.  I realize this will only get done of I do it myself because they will have to be chosen and felled in a way that doesn't damage the young hardwoods.  Not an easy task.

Walking with a Forester tomorrow AM.

I'm liking your current train of thought.

so if im reading this correctly, the logger has painted what he calls 35,000 bd ft and you estimate it is nearly double that?

the forester will mark the trees that should be cut with ash, aspen and beech being first to go , if your ash still has leaf on it  its worth as much as the red oak and good ash is getting harder to find . Like I said the numbers that the logger put out didnot make any sense . In hard maple you got to be very carefull and not open the forest up to much cause it will die from the top down, your forester will know this . Your a mile from the lake so you should have fast growing and good grade timber , if you were 10 miles from the lake then that changes things alot in your area and not for the better 

Quote from: ehp on June 15, 2021, 06:55:00 AM
the forester will mark the trees that should be cut with ash, aspen and beech being first to go , if your ash still has leaf on it  its worth as much as the red oak and good ash is getting harder to find . Like I said the numbers that the logger put out didnot make any sense . In hard maple you got to be very carefull and not open the forest up to much cause it will die from the top down, your forester will know this . Your a mile from the lake so you should have fast growing and good grade timber , if you were 10 miles from the lake then that changes things alot in your area and not for the better

The lake is an interesting micro environment
@rank (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34721) I think you've got the gist of it.  It's slow hard work to do a hardwood thinning correctly and be able to come back in 10-15 years and do another.  Enough sunlight to stimulate some regeneration, not so much it damages the save trees.  Take out all the junk you can in the midstory (suppressed trees), leave some snags for wildlife, watch the floor of the forest looking for young oak seedlings, etc.  See what is on the ground that is going to go once sunlight is added.  Look at the canopy for dominant trees with thin crowns, good sign that tree is stressed.
A forest is about like looking at a crime scene, they all are murders and will kill their neighbor as soon as they can.  Every one of them.  A forest may start with 10000 seedlings but in 50 years there will be 100-200.  What happened, not all deer browsed.  Mostly they were killed by neighbors.  So, what you want to do is be the good neighbor, gradually over time you can alter the stand dynamics and keep the forest at the peak point of production.  @ehp (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1195) area has been kept there for a while and the biomass yields are just tremendous compared to some of the highgraded forest we see.  Of course he has the same unique micro climate.

Quote from: mike_belben on June 14, 2021, 11:02:59 PM
so if im reading this correctly, the logger has painted what he calls 35,000 bd ft and you estimate it is nearly double that?

That is correct Mike.  Realize though that my experience in estimating board feet from standing timber goes back one week LOL.

Quote from: ehp on June 15, 2021, 06:55:00 AM
the forester will mark the trees that should be cut with ash, aspen and beech being first to go , if your ash still has leaf on it  its worth as much as the red oak and good ash is getting harder to find . Like I said the numbers that the logger put out didnot make any sense . In hard maple you got to be very carefull and not open the forest up to much cause it will die from the top down, your forester will know this . Your a mile from the lake so you should have fast growing and good grade timber , if you were 10 miles from the lake then that changes things alot in your area and not for the better

There are many nice big arrow straight ash trees still with plenty of leaves....20" DBH x 40-50 high with 30 ft of limbless stem.  There are a few branches without leaves in the canopy that makes me wonder if the borer has started.  3/4ths of every freshly fallen tree on the forest floor is a 50 ft ash and I have been taking these out for firewood for several years.  The wood is good and I've never seen any borer holes.  They are so tall and relatively small in diameter I always thought they were snapping from the wind.  I watched a shag bark hickory yesterday swaying back and forth 20 ft and it wasn't even a windy day.

Hickory and basswood are not worth much so the logger will leave those . We have very nice hickory here and it's almost hard to sell and if you do it's not worth much . Basswood they only want the clear no defect so no bumps or limbs .  You got to be carefull opening your bush up to much that close to the lake cause of the wind as well as the sun killing the maple .  Having a logger mark timber is not a bad thing but if no bylaw most want to over harvest and that hurts the bush for alot of years .  .  In my area I can mark timber BUT I have to follow alot of rules and my remaining basal area is huge that has to be left standing and unhurt .  I have to have at least 8 trees 10 inch DBH in the basal sight glass at all times . If I have more than that I can mark trees 22 inches in diameter at a set distance off the ground .  And everyone knows the bigger the trees the fewer trees in a set area cause the crown over shadowing the small trees will kill them.  A 10 inch tree has to be pretty close to count in the glass so on a average for every 10 big trees you get to cut 2 but have seen numbers like 1 if trees are to spaced out 

wow.  

thats a rule on private land?  what if someone wants to put in a field?

to do a clear cut here you have to apply to the tree bylaw to get a permit , thats $274 then they will look at it and say either yes or no , if yes you have to pay the county a fee thats around $2,000 an acre which they take that money and plant trees so we never loose any acres of forest cover here . If you think your going to clear 50 acres get that thought out of your head cause that will never happen , even 10 acres is very hard to get approved . Its a very strict logging and cutting practice around here , lots of guys hate it but we have to have it or there will be no timber left to cut , all that will be left is junk low grade , there is no chipping or biomass , paper type of mills around here so without a strict tree cutting law there would be no logging

thats on all land , if trees were planted like lots of white pine is  the law is it has to be marked by a forester , I cut mainly on private ground 99.9% of the time

the county to the east of me has now gone to only good forestry period so all bush has to be marked by a forester . The ground does not have much sand and alot more clay so trees grow alot slower than here which is mainly sand 

What about putting in a house?

Forester said the Logger didn't mark the 22 ac sugarbush parcel too aggressively.  Said it was more or less the way he would have done it from a basal standpoint.   Main difference was the Forester would have left a few of the healthy 18" Maples and Oaks that appeared to be very fast growing trees and instead would have taken neighboring ones that were less healthy to maintain basal area  At the end of the day I guess it's a compromise becasue as someone said, the Logger can't make a living weeding my woodlot.  My family has owned this parcel for approx 100 years and there were a few 100 year old trees in there but there is evidence that 1 acre areas were cleared at some point in the past way before my time.  No stumps left but different species and predominance of smaller diameter trees.

Then we went to the parcel that was Logged by the previous landowner approx 35 years ago.  Forester said it was logged pretty hard back then....lots of stumps and most of the trees that the Logger marked were under 18" some were healthy 15".  He said it was regenerating nicely except for a spot or two where the Logger may have taken one to many trees away that allowed too much sunlight in and now it's a clearing carpeted with green vegetation.  Forester said the Logger 35 years ago did a reasonably good job of allowing new hardwood growth but it is too soon to log it again.  There are trees in there measuring 22" to 26" which indicates that, if left alone, the 15 inchers today will be ~22" in 20 years.  Makes no sense to me to log this for $6,000 when I can rent a few illegal seasonal tent trailer sites in that forest and make $6,000 in 2-3 years.  Don't have the zoning for that but when it takes 60 years to grow a 275 bdft oak log it sure seems a shame to cut it for $200.

I wonder what it costs to insure against a forest fire lol

Some insurance companies will insure ANYTHING. Look at Lloyd's of London for example; expensive rate, but one & done!

But, I do understand that your crack really WAS a joke  ::)

To clear for a house you just apply and tell them what you are doing.   Here on 100 acres of land there is 30 to 35 acres of bush with the rest field to grow crops and they would like the number of acres of bush to increase per 100 acres

@rank (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34721)

Article on hardwood highgrade rehab from a doctor of forestry that i think you may find useful.

Evaluating High-Graded Hardwood Stands | Mississippi State University Extension Service (http://extension.msstate.edu/publications/evaluating-high-graded-hardwood-stands)


Pics from today of the tiny stand ive been rehabbing for a few years.  Im on a ladder putting a camera up for my neighbor on his side looking over the fence into mine. The nearest 3 trees are his.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0615211741_Film1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623815311)

Note the regen after most of the twisty mid story removal.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0615211741a_Film1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623815312)

Quote from: mike_belben on June 16, 2021, 12:00:48 AM
@rank (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34721)

Article on hardwood highgrade rehab from a doctor of forestry that i think you may find useful.

Evaluating High-Graded Hardwood Stands | Mississippi State University Extension Service (http://extension.msstate.edu/publications/evaluating-high-graded-hardwood-stands)


Pics from today of the tiny stand ive been rehabbing for a few years.  Im on a ladder putting a camera up for my neighbor on his side looking over the fence into mine. The nearest 3 trees are his.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0615211741_Film1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623815311)

Note the regen after most of the twisty mid story removal.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0615211741a_Film1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623815312)

Excellent article.

There was another gem nested inside that one i just read this morning. 

Hardwoods: What Is High-Grading? | Mississippi State University Extension Service (http://extension.msstate.edu/publications/hardwoods-what-high-grading)


Making money from ugly wood is the missing link.  Profitable is what ensures that the time and effort are taken to harvest the junk that needs to come out for a stand that flourishes into the next generation. 

 

I told the Logger that, in our opinion, the 15 acre parcel isn't ready to have 79 trees taken from it.  Too many 15" are marked and we will leave it to grown for now. I think there are a few 20"-22" in there that could go but not enough t make it worth his time.  I told him for the $7000 he is offering, they are better off standing.

The I explained by his calculations 12,000 bdft of the 35,000 bdft he proposed to log came from the parcel that is now off the table and moneywise it was ~$7000 of the $38,000 he is currently offering.  Simple subtraction tells us we are now down to $31,000 for the remaining 23,000 bdft.  He agreed, therefore we are now at $1.35/bdft but question remains how to measure volume.

He asked what it would take to make a deal on the sugarbush.  I said I don't now.  Told him he did a good job marking it based on basal area but when if he logs only good stuff, I still have to go in there and cull which might make the basal area too low, and I don't want to ask you to weed my garden for me so maybe I should cull first and you can come back in a year or two.  His response led me to believe that he might be open to bidding on it of it was marked by a Forester.  He wasn't open to that in the beginning.  

He also wants to cut another small 2-3 acre parcel.  There are some big 30 inch oaks in there but he doesn't want them.  "Too far gone" he said.  He seems to prefer them 26" and under.

The Forester I walked with yesterday does not mark with the leaves on.  Getting a 2nd opinion from another Forester this afternoon. 

Stay tuned.

Thanks for the reading Mike.  All that green regen in your pic....are those desirable trees?

The 26" diameter limit sounds to me like your logger sells to a mill with a ring debarker and is limited on those marketing options. 

If its going to quebecthey have a limit on size they want . If its bigger stuff they down grade it hard .  

Quote from: rank on June 16, 2021, 08:45:15 AM
Thanks for the reading Mike.  All that green regen in your pic....are those desirable trees?

Yes and no is the short version.  But I guess it depends on what one desires.  


My woodlot is the back 4 acre highgraded woods behind my 1acre front yard where i presently live.  I am slowly converting the back into a homesite and some livestock paddocks lined in mostly red maples or really proud looking white oaks.. Just for shade and syrup. 

 so until its "done" it is my experiment station where i do different things at different times and loosely observe the outcomes whenever i go for a walk to not strangle my children.  A light meter would correlate pretty clearly to the different species, density and growth rate results. Its old man fun i guess.



That patch was closed canopy with a dead tangled midstory and an open floor of leaf litter and black briar canes.  I cut it pretty hard for a turnaround and scraped the topsoil a few times to stop it from growing back so fast, slightly to the right of that image.  


That green clump growth i cut back a few times for a shooting lane and then let it grow back. It created a super thick hedge and i have a small foodplot and mineral site within the hedge.  My presence keeps the coyotes back a few hundred yards and does come in to fawn in it.  So for me it is all beneficial.  The songbirds, cats and critters are quite prolific now.


The tallest regen in the clump is red maple, sourwood and black gum, 10-15ft.  Chest high is a variety of oaks, sassafrass and some briars.  Theres a knee high sub-carpet of wild blueberry and sassafras underneath it all.  Briars of all heights here and there are trying to establish unsuccessfully and will soon be shaded to death except along the trail edge.   The sassafrass and any black cherry will probably also not make it. The wetter spots have a lot more tulip poplar. Thats very hearty and fast/straight.  


Over time i just prune out what i dont want. The tightly packed density keeps only fast and straight stuff in stock and growing taller every year.  Much of the regen is 20ft tall and sub 2" diameter base.  The kids literally make arrows and swords out of them all the time.


A clearcut or heavy shelterwood cutting produces thousands of sprouts, so you can just think of like a job posting where 1500 applicants are competing for 100 spaces.  Any little quirk, eliminate.  What stays will be flawless that day.  Every few years narrow the herd down again with a clearing saw.  In regen the clearing saw will sever woody stalks as fast as your eyeballs can identify them.  Too fast if youre in a hurry. 

Quote from: rank on June 16, 2021, 08:42:28 AM
I told the Logger that, in our opinion, the 15 acre parcel isn't ready to have 79 trees taken from it.  Too many 15" are marked and we will leave it to grown for now. I think there are a few 20"-22" in there that could go but not enough t make it worth his time.  I told him for the $7000 he is offering, they are better off standing.

The I explained by his calculations 12,000 bdft of the 35,000 bdft he proposed to log came from the parcel that is now off the table and moneywise it was ~$7000 of the $38,000 he is currently offering.  Simple subtraction tells us we are now down to $31,000 for the remaining 23,000 bdft.  He agreed, therefore we are now at $1.35/bdft but question remains how to measure volume.

He asked what it would take to make a deal on the sugarbush.  I said I don't now.  Told him he did a good job marking it based on basal area but when if he logs only good stuff, I still have to go in there and cull which might make the basal area too low, and I don't want to ask you to weed my garden for me so maybe I should cull first and you can come back in a year or two.  His response led me to believe that he might be open to bidding on it of it was marked by a Forester.  He wasn't open to that in the beginning.  

He also wants to cut another small 2-3 acre parcel.  There are some big 30 inch oaks in there but he doesn't want them.  "Too far gone" he said.  He seems to prefer them 26" and under.

The Forester I walked with yesterday does not mark with the leaves on.  Getting a 2nd opinion from another Forester this afternoon.  

Stay tuned.

Here with oak decline it is dangerous to mark with leaves off.  I left dozens of black oak that I'm having to go back and cut now that leaves are revealing very thin crowns.  Lots and lots of white oak are dying around here too.  Sad.

Also needs to be considered that a Great Lakes Sugar Maple stand(especially one being tapped) is a completely different beast than a mid south upland oak-hickory stand.

And your going to see the price of standing timber drop around here as the price of lumber drops . .  Rank I'm sorry but those numbers do not add up for me . First to pay $1.35 a ft for standing timber is pretty much unheard of . Your butt log is worth so much but your second is less and the 3rd and 4th or 5th is worth alot less . Around here guys are paying $1.20 a ft for good hard maple and most are not making any money and lots are quitting cause not making any money . So on any other tree at $1.35 is a total loss so like I said before the only way they make money is to cut alot more volume to get the price per thousand down.  Here cutting what I calllow grade most times pays $1.000 per acre if forester marked . That's just a average . If its good good timber it goes up alot . 

If the stand is marked well, which I would define as cutting the worst first, giving room to the best growers and finally taking some of the larger trees that will either decline in quality or die before the next entry, the logger should have no problem dropping the less than merchantable stems. It can be their last step and they just leave them on the forest floor. 

Will they pay a little less? I would expect so but the job will get done and you can guarantee it is done right.

Clark

I have only seen it practiced by one consulting forester in Southern IL who now watches from above; his sales were all "ring trees". He marked the "leave trees" by a painted circle and everything not marked was to be cut even if left to rot. Many outfits wouldn't bid on his tracts then but I guarantee the lands he managed and now being harvested are bringing a premium today with the next generation already well established.

Stavebuyer , you are 110% correct , if bush is marked under good forestry the junk and low grade gets cut but next time it gets cut the timber grade is a lot higher cause the junk is already gone and here we can cut again in as little as 8 years and again and again . If bush is managed properly you get a good pay check off your land every 8 to 10 years . In good forestry you end up cutting more trees per area over doing a basal cut here so most times what the land owner gets on the first cut of doing the low grade cut good forestry cut works out to be about the same in dollar value as if you let someone go in and take all the big grade trees BUT now all your grade timber is gone for quite a few years 

It's interesting to hear the different perspective of two different Foresters.  One says leave the 18"-20" ones because they will yield more BDFT in 15-20 years.  The other says take some of the 20" high value veneer trees now and leave that 26" oak to die where it is because it will ruin too much young stock when you fall it and it's not worth much now anyway.  One says there is a market for tapped maple and the other says they bottom logs are firewood because they might have metal taps in them from decades ago.  Getting a migraine here.

At any rate, I'm going to have this Forester mark, inventory the woods next week and also estimate the BDFT that was marked by the Logger.  Also have another Logger coming to to look at the stand and perhaps bid on it.

what is the current situation with canadian logs entering USA markets post covid mania?  is he limited to canadian bids or does it make sense to solicit mills in merica?

Quote from: mike_belben on June 16, 2021, 09:53:52 PM
what is the current situation with canadian logs entering USA markets post covid mania?  is he limited to canadian bids or does it make sense to solicit mills in merica?

Good question.  From my experience as an exporter of ag commodities, I would suspect that if there are any import/export restrictions on sawlogs it would have more to do with tariffs than covid.  If the US mills were paying better, a call to my customs broker would clear things up quickly.  

shipping to the USA is very easy and done everyday but the real money is for the grade logs to be put in containers and shipped over seas . Every area is different on how fast your trees grow so what may be best at 20 inch would not be best in another area . Being your so close to the lake your trees should go fast but not as fast as where I am cause the ground is different , most of the mills here can handle 48 to 54 inch diameter and 36 inch is still good high grade . Just look at the volume difference in a tree at 20 inch DBH compared to 22 inch DBH , those extra 2 inches adds alot of volume 

Quote from: mike_belben on June 16, 2021, 10:57:44 AMIts old man fun i guess.

thats funny mike, you're the same age as i. the more you be with younger people the more we get called old. we are getting old!

Quote from: ehp on June 16, 2021, 10:38:17 PM
shipping to the USA is very easy and done everyday but the real money is for the grade logs to be put in containers and shipped over seas . Every area is different on how fast your trees grow so what may be best at 20 inch would not be best in another area . Being your so close to the lake your trees should go fast but not as fast as where I am cause the ground is different , most of the mills here can handle 48 to 54 inch diameter and 36 inch is still good high grade . Just look at the volume difference in a tree at 20 inch DBH compared to 22 inch DBH , those extra 2 inches adds alot of volume

Yes I think these trees are destined for overseas according to what the Logger said.
You're probably right about tree size.  The Forester that said leave them to grow lives close to Lake Ontario like me.  The Foresters that said take them sooner live 60 miles north and they said they rarely see trees this large up there.  In their words, a 20" oak up there is a (admin edit) " TREE".

One of the fellas I walked with yesterday has recent experience selling to Amex from his own woodlot.  He's supposed to be sending me a price list.  Apparently Amex will pick the logs up and transport them to QC.  They are graded and measured in QC so you still don't really know what you have until after they are off your property.  How are you even supposed to make out a bill of lading for the truck if you don't know the BDFT that gets loaded?

You got to load the truck for Amex and load if fast and they want no low grade so pretty much 3rd and 4th log . They pay okay its USA dollars .  It all depends on where you are up north . I can show you all kinds of plus 30 inch oak  up north . When you go north of the 401 down by you it's mostly swamp and wormy soft maple of rough white pine . .  The type of soil will mostly tell you what your timber will grade out .     How is this logger coming to cut your bush. Is it by chainsaw or by machine .  .  

In stuff like red oak and that you need to leave your bush thick enough to stop the trees from growing pin knots or limbs . Hard maple will do the same thing.   

Quote from: ehp on June 17, 2021, 12:05:39 PM
You got to load the truck for Amex and load if fast and they want no low grade so pretty much 3rd and 4th log . They pay okay its USA dollars .  It all depends on where you are up north . I can show you all kinds of plus 30 inch oak  up north . When you go north of the 401 down by you it's mostly swamp and wormy soft maple of rough white pine . .  The type of soil will mostly tell you what your timber will grade out .     How is this logger coming to cut your bush. Is it by chainsaw or by machine .  .  

Machine I think
I have about 12" of a well drained limestone shale gravelly clay-loam topsoil over limestone shale bedrock.  Soil samples show very high calcium content.

I know your area fairly well and have walked fair amount of timberland there . The closer to the lake the better . Have seen nice red oak and big nice walnut .  Your hard maple is not going to compare with the maple here because of the ground . Cut lots of hard maple here its real hard to find the heart and wood is snow white . 

Next time you're in the area EHP, lunch is on me.

In other news, I told our Logger friend I have a Forester coming in to mark the timber and tally the bdft he marked because I think there is more than 23,000.

Logger: I know there is way, WAY more than 23,000....the 23,000 was just a guess before I marked the bush.
Me: So then, are you gong to pay $1.35/bdft on the Forester's tally?
Logger: No That won't happen. I will scale it at my yard
Me: I'm not really any father ahead then am I?
Logger: Ok then have them mark and tally the timber by species and I will pay by species and scale it on the landing.
Me: Let's wait and see what happens next week

Hmmmm

Quote from: barbender on June 17, 2021, 11:29:54 PM
Hmmmm

HAHAHAHA.  Kind of what I said but not exactly. More like A-HA

Even in the current strong market $1.35 standing didn't seem to be plausible unless it was limited to veneer or included some "creative accounting".

Sell it standing with the money in your bank before a tree hits the ground and the forester protecting your interests regarding the residual stand. It won't bring anything close to a $1.35 per foot; but it was never worth that and you never were actually offered that number either. I'm not in your market and don't know which dollars we are discussing but in KY $.65 per ft in US dollars would be a big number on excellent Hard Maple stumpage. If you mix in some of the lesser species and poorer specimens that need cutting you would be south of $.50

I have seen this scenario play out many a time. Some fast talker spouts off big numbers or averages either succeeds in conning the landowner into a high grade and or become a victim of some creative accounting. Should the landowner not sell at the time, a false expectation of what the trees were "worth" makes it impossible for an honest buyer to meet an unrealistic price per tree or per foot.

Truth is with the exception of some high quality veneer, timber is a mostly a volume business. $3-4K plus per acre stumpage usually comes from selling 8k ft/acre not 8x $1000 trees per acre. Do $1000+ trees exist; sure but mostly old growth veneer white oak and walnut and generally a component of a high volume per acre stand that has not been previously high graded. 

Reading between the lines here I think when you get the real footage numbers you will be disappointed by the average price per ft. The forester may decide to remove the younger rotary veneer(14"-16"  logs) and mark some hickory and beech. When the dust settles its possible that a properly marked sale may not realize the $38K that was offered for the high grade version but will be the better long term payout.

Things too good to be true generally are. The lure of easy money is the con artists stock in trade.

ive already told this guy to take a walk in my mind.  clearly he does what he wants and does it well enough, vague enough and to the correct crowd, to do it continually without any trouble.  Hands-off landowners are happy to be getting unexpected cash.

my experience is that an average woodlot doesnt make $1.35/bf harvested and delivered to the mill. it would be another mental planet for the stumpage to pay so well.. but i have no stumpage experience. maybe there are stands that pristine.  i dont think ive ever stood in one. 

have we been talking CDN or USD?  

Quote from: mike_belben on June 18, 2021, 08:15:12 AM
have we been talking CDN or USD?  

CDN.  Exchange rate last I looked was about $.80 USD $1.00 CDN so $1.35 = $1.08

Not a big difference these days on the dollar Mike . Our dollar has climbed alot sense you put your new guy in power.  I said it all along unless it's good veneer maple or walnut your not getting $1.35 a ft for standing timber . Seen guys pay $1200/1000 here for maple and there not making any money once they get the job done and lots go backwards on making money .  So to get $1.35 a ft for standing timber on a true log scale it has to be good hard maple or walnut . Even our white oak does not pay well enough to pay that for standing trees

Quote from: stavebuyer on June 18, 2021, 04:46:17 AM.....<snipped>....It won't bring anything close to a $1.35 per foot; but it was never worth that and you never were actually offered that number either. I'm not in your market and don't know which dollars we are discussing but in KY $.65 per ft in US dollars would be a big number on excellent Hard Maple stumpage. If you mix in some of the lesser species and poorer specimens that need cutting you would be south of $.50
<snipped>....
Reading between the lines here I think when you get the real footage numbers you will be disappointed by the average price per ft. The forester may decide to remove the younger rotary veneer(14"-16"  logs) and mark some hickory and beech. When the dust settles its possible that a properly marked sale may not realize the $38K that was offered for the high grade version but will be the better long term payout.

I get that.  The idea all along has been to expose him and get the real number.  I expect the real BDFT number is about double what he said so that means $1.35 CDN is really about $.70 CDN.  No matter who does the cutting, I don't expect I will take less than $1.00/bdft for a quality tree marked by a Forester because firewood is worth $.80 tax free cash in hand.  One of my neighbor's has a similar mindset to me and he only puts the best of the best veneer logs on a truck and keeps the lesser grades for his firewood business.

Current prices loaded at roadside CAD:
Hard Maple
$1900 - $4500 Veneer
$1980 Prime + to $750 for Grade 2

Red Oak
$1300 - $1700 veneer
$1075 Prime + to $480 for Grade 2

Ash
$1075 Prime + to $325 for Grade 2

if i was buying stumpage here where i live i think id lose my butt on anything over $200/mbf usd. 


rank, the man trolls forums for lawbreakers, trust me.  you gladly pay all applicable taxes on everything in life.

Quote from: mike_belben on June 18, 2021, 09:13:03 AMrank, the man trolls forums for lawbreakers, trust me.  you gladly pay all applicable taxes on everything in life.

Tax free because my kids do the work and they're earnings are beneath the taxable limit.  All legal

my kids are keeping my earnings below the taxable limit too!  :D

Rank , you better check those tax laws again , I know more than a few that put money in kids names thinking they were getting around paying money and the answer is NO

Quote from: ehp on June 18, 2021, 02:25:28 PM
Rank , you better check those tax laws again , I know more than a few that put money in kids names thinking they were getting around paying money and the answer is NO

I believe the tax law reads that, if employed, they need to be collecting a reasonable wage for the work being done.  Alternatively, they could also run their own business and not choose to be employed at all.  The kids are 16 yrs and 12 yrs.  I suppose if they weren't actually doing the work there would be a problem.  What's next in this country, criminalizing lemonade stands and car washes?

Quote from: mike_belben on June 18, 2021, 09:40:10 AM
my kids are keeping my earnings below the taxable limit too!  :D

HA! Exactly, they're going to get it one way or the other so I say they should earn it.

Maybe I should start another thread for this but you guys already know what I want to do so I'll try this first.  If I decide to pick away at this cull/select cut job myself, what should I use for a skidder?  I'm thinking something that utilizes a 3PH on one of my smaller tractors.....a 8,000 lb winch off an old tow truck?  Tractor is 100 hp x 7.5 feet wide x 10,000 lbs + 1,000 lbs of weights hanging on the front.  Flat ground.

I'd fit up a grapple on the FEL of that tractor.
Wallenstein just North of you makes very good forestry winches for three point hitches.
Use one that has a receiver hitch in it, and use it to pull a four wheel farm wagon with stake pockets on the rub rails.
Set up skidder trails that are tractor/wagon friendly and spaced so that they are separated by twice the length of your winch cable.
A couple of landings are where you park your wagon - fill it with your cuttings using the grapple after you skid them out of the woods between the trails.
.
DanG - it's so easy to spend other people's money!  :D 

Ever try to disc a field with a skidder?  They can pull like nobodys business, but they make horrible row crop machines.  Likewise farm tractors and logging don't mix well.  Lots of hazards jumping up from the ground, and more coming from the sky that John Deere Sound Guard cabs never planned for.  You think BT corn is tough on tires?  You ain't seen nothing compared to what the woods will do to them.  Plastic saddle fuel tank?  Oopsie!!

Can it be done with a tractor?  Of course.  Would it be money well spent to find and old Timber Jack for $15K that you can sell for $15K when you are done with it?  In my opinion yes.  You can use your tractor and loader on a nice, flat, landing to load logs and it won't get beat up and let the actual skidder do the woods work.  

A genuine 3 point pto winch with a nice easy freewheel, a high pulley, and a load holding brake.

Dont get a setup where you have to winch in then switch the chokers to hooks on your attachment.  You want to skid the whole wack on the mainline using sliders and chokers. 

Dont graft on a hydraulic winch, and especially not an electric. And dont fall for some monsterous braden salvage crane unit with no freewheel so that you have to power the cable out every time.  


A skidder is obviously the right tool for the job if u have then means. Dozers are too slow unless youre in very steep or swampy. 

Quote from: mike_belben on June 18, 2021, 10:52:59 PM
A genuine 3 point pto winch with a nice easy freewheel, a high pulley, and a load holding brake.

Quote from: Andries on June 18, 2021, 10:31:20 PM
Wallenstein just North of you makes very good forestry winches for three point hitches.

I saw one of those on my neighbor's tractor and always wondered what it was now I know lol  Thanks for the idea

How much time you got?
Them mills wants the logs fresh. They don't want the logs sitting around for 2 months. I have done what you want. Takes A LOT of time to cut wood. Do you have a 40 hour job? You won't be seeing the wife and kids much if you do. Now you can drop the trees and take the logs and do good. But I always cleaned up the small stuff, meaning pulp and any trees that I knocked down too.
Than you need to know the market, or someone that does. 

Quote from: thecfarm on June 19, 2021, 05:34:48 AM
How much time you got?
Them mills wants the logs fresh. They don't want the logs sitting around for 2 months. I have done what you want. Takes A LOT of time to cut wood. Do you have a 40 hour job? You won't be seeing the wife and kids much if you do. Now you can drop the trees and take the logs and do good. But I always cleaned up the small stuff, meaning pulp and any trees that I knocked down too.
Than you need to know the market, or someone that does.

The culls are less time sensitive.

>Do you have a 40 hour job?
Now that's funny.  Closer to 80 than 40.  Sometimes the winters are less.  Sometimes not.
>Them mills wants the logs fresh. They don't want the logs sitting around for 2 months.
Yeah I have a tendency to bite off more than I can chew.  A 7000 bdft load of ash would be about 25 trees....4 trees a day....I'd guess I could do that in a week if I made the time.  Clean up and processing the tops would take forever.
It might make sense to pay a careful logger to log the veneer (if he doesn't mark the standing tress all up) but the firewood culls I doubt makes economic sense. I have skidded logs out with a tractor, a rope and pulleys where I couldn't get a straight pull before....no winch....rig....drive ahead...rig again....drive ahead....rig again.  To heck with that.

The Forester's came and marked what they thought should be taken without letting in too much light.  Heavy on the ash before the borer takes them.   Here's the tally from this ~22 ac parcel:

Red oak grade 1        79 trees   16,021 bfdt
Red oak grade 2        26 trees     4,916 bdft
Hard maple grade 1   24 trees     4,644 bdft
Hard maple grade 2   31 trees     5,799 bdft
White ash                118 trees   22,599 bdft
Basswood                    2 trees       374 bdft

TOTAL                      280 trees   54,353 bdft

*definition of grade 1 is a tree that should yield at least one veneer log

rank Thank you for the update.

A couple of questions; Did the Forester provide you with any valuation estimate? How many trees "marked" by the logger ended up being retained as "leave trees" by the Forester?

 

Quote from: stavebuyer on July 04, 2021, 04:42:26 AM
rank Thank you for the update.

A couple of questions; Did the Forester provide you with any valuation estimate? How many trees "marked" by the logger ended up being retained as "leave trees" by the Forester?

No I didn't get a valuation estimate.  Unfortunately I am left to translate the Forester's definition of grade 1 and grade 2 into Amex's grading system of Prime, select etc.  This is basically a poorly educated guess by me and in the end, I assumed that none of my saw logs will grade higher than #1.  I assume this because most of the maples are tapped and many of the oak butt logs have mysterious creases/splits in them on one side from many years ago that have healed over but will probably be a defect.

Using the Amex price list an assuming none of my saw logs go better than grade #1, I estimate ~10,000 bdft of veneer worth $13,000 and 44,000 bdft of saw logs worth $38,000 for a total of $51,000 CDN.

The Logger and the Forester marked many of the same trees....let's say 60%.  They said the Logger marked more trees than they did....that is to say he marked more than 280.

I had a 2nd Logger come in and look at what the Foresters marked.   He said he would pay me 50% of the veneer value and 33% of saw log value.  Based on my guestimates above, that equals $20,000 to me for 54,000 bdft.......$360/mbdft.  He would get ~$32,000 for the logging work.  He's a one man show I think....said it would take him a couple months.....that's 7 trees a day for 40 days and $115/tree in dollar terms.

Prices and volumes for Logger 2 seem very reasonable to me. Sounds like he takes his time and that's a good thing for your forest

Sometimes terminology can get confusing. True "veneer" ie 4 sides clear logs with no apparent defects which is destined to be sliced or peeled seldom makes a large percentage of any sale. Also to meet most buyers top saw log price you usually must have a minimum scaling diameter(typically 18").

Looking at your figures from 500-600 miles south I thought the initial logger was inflating the price per foot. I also thought you were being unrealistic to expect a $1 or more on the stump for a properly marked sale(non high grade)

Appalachian pricing generally is a little behind the Northern market; especially on Hard Maple and Cherry. Easy to log timber here would none the less seldom bring less than 50% of mill pricing if cut on shares and good tracts would net the landowner 60%. 

Solicit sealed bids and retain the right to reject them.

your loggers are paying quite abit less than around here , most it works out to be around the 60% to 70% to land owner on logs

Quote from: ehp on July 04, 2021, 10:18:05 PM
your loggers are paying quite abit less than around here , most it works out to be around the 60% to 70% to land owner on logs

ED I got the call today from the buyer, couple weeks and its going the other way again, get it out as fast as i can, thats on good sawlogs and everything except GOOD HM. Hickory is shut right off, SM is going to crash.

 laundry-smiley 

Sounds like loggers are gonna get hung out to dry already if thats the case.  Yet itll probably take years for retail lumber to come back to sanity




popcorn_smiley

Quote from: BargeMonkey on July 04, 2021, 10:30:52 PM
ED I got the call today from the buyer, couple weeks and its going the other way again, get it out as fast as i can, thats on good sawlogs and everything except GOOD HM. Hickory is shut right off, SM is going to crash.

Maybe that's why I haven't heard from Logger 1 in over a week.

Rank

I've just now read the entire thread and a few thoughts come to mind. I'm northeast of Belleville so not too far away from you.

EHP / Mike/ Stavebuyer and the others are giving you good advice. Listen to them. They have no dog in this hunt, so they are on your side and your side alone.

Tell logger 1 to take a hike. He came to you with an opportunistic lowball offer and has been backpedaling ever since. His "ready to harvest again in 15 years" is pure and utter pulp.

I suggest you look up and consider joining the Ontario Woodlot Association. Lot's of good member in this area and good inputs to be had from property owners like you who are not desperate for cash, but want to plan for a sustainable harvest now and again in the future.

I agree 100% on your 15 acre parcel. It does not sound ready to harvest again.

Seriously look at being more aggressive on your ash. My 75 acres has little to no ash borer signs, but I have ash trees dying all around me - as little as 1/4 mile away. 5 miles away, EVERY ash is dead. You may have a year or two, but not much longer. PEC council had a presentation just the other week about the impact of the EAB on forests in the county. 80% of the firewood logs my logger is bringing us these days are ash - landowners around here are cutting most or all while there is still some value left in them.

Barge unless you got a boat your not logging here , we got 14 inches just in the last week and to get 6 more days where it rains . Guy I have been selling to is pretty good and up front with me so I have not cut any high grade in a month or so but have lots to cut but were waiting till fall . The other mill is still buying but its at about 60% of the value of the other guy so it does not make sense to sell to them . Rank  if you ash is good its worth every dollar as much as your red oak on over all price. There is very little good ash close to the great lakes as the bore has killed everything, if it still has leaf your good to go but like I have said before , If its good timber wait till its cool , you will loose a fair amount of money cutting in this heat and if its good straight ash with no knots or limbs do not cut it period until its cooler , it will check and split in seconds on hitting the ground right now 

Seek out the services of a professional and certified forester serving your local area with more than 5 years of local field experience in timber sale preparation and management.

Quote from: ehp on July 05, 2021, 02:24:24 PM
Barge unless you got a boat your not logging here , we got 14 inches just in the last week

Rank  if you ash is good its worth every dollar as much as your red oak on over all price. There is very little good ash close to the great lakes as the bore has killed everything, if it still has leaf your good to go but like I have said before , If its good timber wait till its cool , you will loose a fair amount of money cutting in this heat and if its good straight ash with no knots or limbs do not cut it period until its cooler , it will check and split in seconds on hitting the ground right now

Send some this way.  I got 3/10ths between June 2 and July 2 my crops are sad.
The ash is straight and tall no limbs many are 20" DBH and all are well foliated.  It's a shame to cut them all.  I bought a Wallenstein FX110 skidder. Getting myself ready for the fall.

Question:  Is it true the borer spend the winter under the bark of the ash tree?  If this is true, won't the larva/eggs be in the log when it's transported to the mill in the winter?

Quote from: Ron Scott on July 05, 2021, 06:19:10 PM
Seek out the services of a professional and certified forester serving your local area with more than 5 years of local field experience in timber sale preparation and management.

I thought I did that.  I hired two already but i don't know if they are certified

Quote from: Big_eddy on July 05, 2021, 12:40:50 PM
 PEC council had a presentation just the other week about the impact of the EAB on forests in the county.

Isn't that interesting.  I'll look for that presentation is on the Prince Edward County website.  And hello neighbour.

the bore I'm sure  has been  all over your area, I'm thinking they have been here 12 plus years and your not far really from me , I can drive to you in under 4 hours easy . If your selling logs to a mill its not going to matter cause the lumber should be kiln dried so the end of the bore and to be honest I'm sure the bore already has moved north of your area .  We still find small areas of ash thats alive but not alot right here where I'm cutting , if the area does not have alot of ash you can also find trees the bore missed . I just finished cutting 35 acres of bore killed ash and it all went for firewood  which is not good but lots had already fell over 

Quote from: rank on July 05, 2021, 06:51:19 PM

Quote from: Big_eddy on July 05, 2021, 12:40:50 PM
PEC council had a presentation just the other week about the impact of the EAB on forests in the county.

Isn't that interesting.  I'll look for that presentation is on the Prince Edward County website.  And hello neighbour.

https://princeedwardcounty.civicweb.net/FileStorage/EC29216AC6C2473EABC798CB562DB088-EAB%20Presentation%20-%20PEC%20Council.pdf (https://princeedwardcounty.civicweb.net/FileStorage/EC29216AC6C2473EABC798CB562DB088-EAB%20Presentation%20-%20PEC%20Council.pdf)
June 24 Committee of the Whole.
There is a link in the document to an MNR document "Preparing for the Emerald Ash Borer" https://www.eomf.on.ca/media/k2/attachments/Preparing-for-EAB.pdf (https://www.eomf.on.ca/media/k2/attachments/Preparing-for-EAB.pdf) that may be of interest to you as well

Quote from: ehp on July 05, 2021, 07:02:30 PM
the bore I'm sure  has been  all over your area, I'm thinking they have been here 12 plus years and your not far really from me , I can drive to you in under 4 hours easy . If your selling logs to a mill its not going to matter cause the lumber should be kiln dried so the end of the bore and to be honest I'm sure the bore already has moved north of your area .  We still find small areas of ash thats alive but not alot right here where I'm cutting , if the area does not have alot of ash you can also find trees the bore missed . I just finished cutting 35 acres of bore killed ash and it all went for firewood  which is not good but lots had already fell over

I left London on 2007 and yeah the borer was a big deal in SWON even prior to that.  I recall talk of cutting ALL the ash trees and how it was illegal to transport wood anywhere.  I haven't heard much talk of the borer here in SEON until recently.

Take a drive into Belleville. This is the year. You won't find an ash tree that isn't dead or dying. Top die back and epicormic branching everywhere.

The one tree type the Gypsy moths left alone. :(  Well except for sugar maples. Heck, the caterpillars have even stripped the needles off the pines.

This has been a great post to read and follow. 
Rank dont be afraid to post you live in Ontario. It took me a bit to figure out 60 miles north of rochester.  :D

Quote from: Stephen1 on July 07, 2021, 08:20:40 PM
This has been a great post to read and follow.
Rank dont be afraid to post you live in Ontario. It took me a bit to figure out 60 miles north of rochester.  :D

50 nautical miles actually :)

Hello everyone I thought I would stop by and give you all an update.

Told Logger 1 (who I believe is reading along here) to give me a new bid based on the trees that the Foresters marked (280 trees and 54,000 bdft).  He came back with $410/1000 for the ash, $500/1000 for the oak and $700/1000 for the maple scaled on the landing.  If the Forester's estimates turn out to be accurate that would be $26,300 CDN.  He mentioned that he expected the Forester's tally was a little high and he thought it would scale to approx $22,000.

This is all fair and good and I understand he has a business to run but I nevertheless told him I was going to pass on his offer because it just doesn't seem like there is enough money in logging to warrant running through my woods with a skidder. If I pick away at it myself I theoretically gross $51,000 if I do it myself.

Now get this....he says he wants me to pay him $5,000 for the 37 acres he marked.  I told him this was a outrageous amount of money and he would have to sue me for it.  Especially when he never provided me with a tally sheet by species and his verbal BDFT number was 50% below the actual amount he marked which borders on fraud IMO.

I hope he does take me to court I'll be anxious to tell the story.

Well, sorry to hear of the downturn.  Hopefully it will all pan out well in the end.  His prices on the stump are pretty close to what i would get hauling it into the sawmill myself, just fyi.  

One could have 37 acres professionally surveyed for less than $5k so i think his appraisal of an unsolicited service (that is no service at all to you, its merely a physical marking of what he wants to strike a deal on) is a little optomistic.  I think a reasonable court (if there are any left) will tell him to pound sand.

My father had a situation where an unsolicited paver knocked on the door with his standard "my son got too much asphalt for the job down the street, its gonna harden in my truck, i will pave your driveway for a super cheap amount per square yard" scam pitch.  Yes lets do it, all verbal.  Paves yard. okay now you owe me the X amount per square foot, hey you said yard, no i didnt now pay me..  I called the police and then attorney generals office.  AG said he came to you, unsolicited contractor.  you dont have to pay him anything. I told him the per yard price or nothing. We were blocking traffic screaming at each other when he took the cash and left.  (Stans paving on Rt20 in Palmer Ma. Beware.)

I used to work for a reputable asphalt contractor, every summer what we called "the scammers" would come through town, rip a few people off and the sheriff would run them off. Always that same line, "I tell you what. We bought too much mix, and have to get it off the truck". The sad part is, a lot of people paid more for that garbage work, than we would've charged them for a professional, warranted job by a local company. I'll give them this much, they are masters at stretching asphalt out. I never saw anyone that could pave 1/2" thick like that and not drag gravel.

@rank (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34721) Thank you for the candid update. This thread ought to be required reading for anyone considering a timber sale.  Glad you had the patience to dodge the impending high grade as I felt the initial logger almost had you hooked.

I suppose you can hand him a bill for $6,000 to remove the paint from 37 acres of trees.

Rank, he has no grounds to stand on so do not worry , He marked it under his own time and that is part of the job as we that are loggers have to do , timber prices are still very good right now but the big thing is who is going to scale the logs on the landing as that is the most important part as some scale fair and lots do not , like I said before , logging is like 2 banty roosters chasing each other around in the barn yard seeing who is going to come out on top 

Do I get paid for every bush I walk or mark that some one else gets NO, its part of the business

Marked plenty of tracts myself only for landowner to sell my paint to someone else.

It's just part of it. Foresters here work on a percentage of the sale and are paid upon contract signing. Some are good at what they do, some not so much. Some high grade mark to gain the most revenue for themselves, some will call a post oak a white on the bid sheet to drive the bid up for the guys that bid off the sheet without inspection. The footage numbers off the sheet will be all over the place but rarely and I mean rarely will they ever be what is on the foresters sheet. Sometimes higher, sometimes lower

Quote from: so il logger on August 01, 2021, 01:53:52 AMForesters here work on a percentage of the sale and are paid upon contract signing. Some are good at what they do, some not so much. Some high grade mark to gain the most revenue for themselves, some will call a post oak a white on the bid sheet to drive the bid up for the guys that bid off the sheet without inspection

We pay our forester by the hour, not a percentage. I'm not interested in a pay method that incentivizes them to take more or high grade, and they are happy to work this way. He and his associate are good at what they do and recognize that we have other goals beyond maximizing short term cash from a timber sale. They have a great reputation in our area and are as busy as they want to be (actually, probably busier than they want to be).

Quote from: John Mc on August 01, 2021, 10:02:38 AM
We pay our forester by the hour, not a percentage.

I paid my Foresters by the acre.  $38/ac ($30/ac USD) for two men.  $836 ($660 USD) for 22 acres.  For that I got a tally sheet of bdft and number of trees broken down by species.
If a fella solicits me and thinks I'm paying $5,000 for him to take a 5 hr walk through 38 acres and provide only a verbal bdft number...well I have no words to describe their level of crazy.

I pay $260 an hour for the forester which counts for 3 people marking trees and 1 person tally what they mark plus I pay for the paint and their scale is pretty close to the scale I get from the mill, if trees are over 30 inch average I gain abit on their scale but land owner gets paid for any over run as well , Rank if the forester thinks the bush is worth $51,000 then you should be getting at least $32,000 or MORE for the timber , you paid for the marking so he has very little cost . 

Quote from: rank on July 31, 2021, 10:47:43 AM
Hello everyone I thought I would stop by and give you all an update.

Told Logger 1 (who I believe is reading along here)

What leads you to believe this? If he is, it should be a really good way
 For him to learn the error of his ways.

Quote from: John Mc on August 01, 2021, 10:02:38 AM

Quote from: so il logger on August 01, 2021, 01:53:52 AMForesters here work on a percentage of the sale and are paid upon contract signing. Some are good at what they do, some not so much. Some high grade mark to gain the most revenue for themselves, some will call a post oak a white on the bid sheet to drive the bid up for the guys that bid off the sheet without inspection

We pay our forester by the hour, not a percentage. I'm not interested in a pay method that incentivizes them to take more or high grade, and they are happy to work this way. He and his associate are good at what they do and recognize that we have other goals beyond maximizing short term cash from a timber sale. They have a great reputation in our area and are as busy as they want to be (actually, probably busier than they want to be).

How it works here is I receive bid sheets mailed out by independent foresters. The landowners hire them to handle the timber sale which is just them marking the trees and roughly marking boundary. They paint and tally and send out sheets broken down into species and volume avg. Accompanied with a copy of aerial photo. They generally get 10% of the sale as payment. I'll put it this way, if an honest logger harvests the tract then the landowner would be better off short term "financially" without handing over the 10%  and long term due to forest health and the effects of high grading. 
We buy allot of forester marked tracts, and pay the landowner any overcut if there is any. We do not have to, but it's just fair practice

Generally if a forester handles a timber sale on a percentage basis, they do all the following: Mark the timber in a way to best meet the landowner's objectives, Prepare a tally and estimate of volume by species and grade, Prepare a bid prospectus, advertise the sale and handle the bid process, Prepare the timber sale contract, Review the bids with the landowner and assure that the winning bidder has the proper insurance and equipment to properly do the job, Award the contract with the landowner's consent, Assure that all required permits are in place, Supervise the logging and clean up to assure that all contract specs are met, If the logger fails to complete all required contract items in a reasonable time period, use the logger's bond (that should have been required in the contract) to cover the cost of completing the work. In some cases they may also advise the landowner in how best to handle the tax consequences of the timber income. 

for this area , if the land has been put in the govt tax program it has to be marked by a forester , if land owner has not owned the land for 2 full years it has to be marked by a forester, if the trees were planted which we have lots of it has to be marked by a forester but they are trying to see if they can change the rules as we donot have very many foresters BUT remember your cuts will be walked by the by law so if you think your going to cut whatever you want you are WRONG

Quote from: Jeff on August 01, 2021, 12:09:40 PM

Quote from: rank on July 31, 2021, 10:47:43 AM
Hello everyone I thought I would stop by and give you all an update.

Told Logger 1 (who I believe is reading along here)

What leads you to believe this? If he is, it should be a really good way
For him to learn the error of his ways.

Pure speculation on my part but his demeanor changed a few posts back

Quote from: ehp on August 02, 2021, 04:14:23 PM
for this area , if the land has been put in the govt tax program it has to be marked by a forester , if land owner has not owned the land for 2 full years it has to be marked by a forester, if the trees were planted which we have lots of it has to be marked by a forester but they are trying to see if they can change the rules as we donot have very many foresters BUT remember your cuts will be walked by the by law so if you think your going to cut whatever you want you are WRONG

All the Foresters agree that there is no tree cutting bylaw in Prince Edward County.  They all say that's why the Loggers are here

Quote from: so il logger on August 02, 2021, 12:55:31 AMI'll put it this way, if an honest logger harvests the tract then the landowner would be better off short term "financially" without handing over the 10%  and long term due to forest health and the effects of high grading.

This is what Logger 1 said.  Said the Forester should have marked more trees.   If it gets logged too often you do more damage to the young stock.  Better to log heavier and less often.  I see his point and I suppose it's a balance and every bush is different but I am deathly afraid of the buckthorn taking over if too much sunlight gets in there.

Let the light in and selectively balance the regen with a brush saw. 

Quote from: mike_belben on August 02, 2021, 05:46:06 PM
.... selectively balance the regen with a brush saw.

I haven't got time to mow my lawn LOL

Yeah but no one wants to mow lawn.  Everyone wants to cut trees. 

;)

I am a believer in foresters! Selection of a forester isn't all that different than selecting an auto mechanic or dentist, start asking people that should know who they recommend and why, you can also talk to more than one forester. The forester I used and would recommend in my area did a brief walk through with me and then asked what I wanted out of the woods and what I wanted it to look like after the cut and a few years down the road, he made it happen.

Rank

Seems like your ash is gonna die/already is heading in that direction. Logging your own property is a huge undertaking.  You say you are to busy to mow your own lawn. 
Why dont you get your forester to recommend a logger and have that logger do the work. Yes you wont make as much money as doing it yourself, but it will get done and you will be able to get a return on your assets. 
 Everyone seems to think logging is easy and can be DIY. But go fire up a saw and cut for 6 hrs then tell me how ya feel the next day.... it's not 6 hrs on the firewood pile. Its 6 hrs of bending, running, pounding wedges, wading thru tops etc. Not a cakewalk by any means. 
I have been following this thread and  early on advised to take up a reputable logger on his offer.  If you wait to long your ash wont be worth squat. And if you wait to long your regen will get spindly and fall over when released. Good forestry is all about timing. Make hay when the sun shines. Move past your ego and the big $$ signs that you think you can save by doing it yourself.  Find a good logger and trust them to do right by your forest. Its sounds like its marked, tallied and ready to go. Markets are strong. Dont wait till the corn falls over.

Good luck

Chep, thats some good sound advise.

yep, got to shave while the water is hot...  Honestly, I would have lost interest a long time ago if I were the loggers. Don't mean to hurt anyones feelings, but I think hes talked to 3 loggers and 2 foresters over the last 2 or 3 months.. and then decides to cut it himself? Loggers need to make a living...

The loggers will never lose interest as long as there are marketable trees

They will when the price crashes. 

Quote from: mike_belben on August 05, 2021, 08:39:21 AM
They will when the price crashes.

How have prices been in your area? I've not researched it in any depth, but from what I've heard through the grapevine, they are doing OK here in VT.

Probably still pretty strong but i really have no idea.  I go against the grain at all times.  While everyone is cutting them i am growing them. 

So for gits and shiggles i called the tie mill i know best from my adventures in high graded timber.  

W/O and R/O switch tie have gone from 450 and 400 to 550 and 500 respectively.  She said prices are going up next week because theyre empty, theyve only sawn 3 weeks this summer and only have 2 weeks of wood.  The two mills are short by 18 crew members and only one can run at a time with the crew they have.  Between old loggers retiring and a few weeks of rain it is looking dire.  There is a part of me thinking i better contribute a trailer load of logs to help keep them afloat or i will regret it later.  That can buy me poles and high tensile wire before it goes up.

They stayed running all through covid.  Weather was all that altered production, not sickness.  Now the entire state or tennessee is having a huge phantom leap in cases but its all BS.  Everyone knows everyone in the rural south.  We hear about the slightest minutia in peoples lives and theres not one so n so got the covid story on the grapevine.  

I have nothing to really contribute other than... I just read this entire thread!😂

But, I appreciate that Rank has taken his time and asked lots of questions from lots of people. He learned a lot along the way that can only be a benefit to him in the future. 

Depends how many other fish are in these loggers seas. If they have other prospective jobs I imagine they'll give up. I've had landowners tell me "for that price I'll cut em up myself". Makes me laugh every time. Never once has that happened.  Only had a few try never had ANY succeed or finish. I've found the jobs that I've fought the hardest for I wish I'd have let em go. Just get put through the ringer and no PROFIT to show for it. 

I've alwYs believed in trusting  your gut. That goes for both parties in a timber sale: logger AND landowner 

I am a landowner who  has been managing and harvesting my 50 acres of pine, oak and hemlock for 35 years and have always sold direct to the mills.
.85/bd ft seems like a decent price for stumpage if the stumpage count is accurate.
I only get .30-.40/bd ft for white pine and hemlock sawlogs and maybe .60/bd ft for red oak and that is direct and I still make a profit after trucking and sawing expenses.

I like loggers and used to be one. 
They typically don't know anything silviculture. 
Foresters know a lot about it, so the smart thing to do is hire one if it is your land and you are going to stay there. 

He will not get .85 a ft stumpage across the board if scale is accurate unless is good hard maple  white oak or walnut . Not much else pays that well up here. But if your getting paid for every other tree cut then I can see it . If your cutting by good forestry in ontario so that means your also cutting the junk and you do not get to cut the best as its left to grow you should average .50 per ft stumpage so about $1000 to $1500 an acre is pretty average here . If you cut more trees per acre then you will not be able to come back and log again in 10 years

UPDATE:

Hello again everyone.  I've been in there two weeks now taking the ash only.  I've got 42 trees down out of the 118 ash that were marked.  Just a WAG I'd say I have about fifty five 15" x 8'-10' ft logs....about 4675 bdft international x $575 = $2700 CDN.  

Observations:
-Skidding them out from way, way in there is time consuming.
-Taking only the ash is time consuming.
-Bucking straight sections from crooked trees is time consuming.
-A 60 year old tree should be worth more than a $50 saw log
-There is no such thing as a straight tree.
-The foresters estimated 22,000 bdft of ash in 118 trees....not even close.  Maybe half that.  Trees aren't straight enough.
-There's going to be more revenue from firewood than saw logs
-I think when I'm done I'll have less money than the logger offered

I'm sorry to hear that for you. But I'm not too surprised. If it were easy everyone would wanna do it. Not to be mean but if the loggers that looked at your woods would read this post they'd sure have  a good laugh. Thanks for the update. Your honesty and openness is commendable 

Quote from: OH logger on February 28, 2022, 08:25:14 PM
I'm sorry to hear that for you. But I'm not too surprised. If it were easy everyone would wanna do it. Not to be mean but if the loggers that looked at your woods would read this post they'd sure have  a good laugh. Thanks for the update. Your honesty and openness is commendable

No worries.  I'm sure the one logger would laugh for sure.  And he should.  That's OK I said from the beginning it was never about the money but about the uncertainty of what my forest was going to look like afterward. I'm sure it will be in better shape when I'm done due to less skidder damage.

For the price he offered up front, his overseas buyers are obviously paying much better and tolerating more sweep than my buyer.  I might even call him to see if he wants to buy them off the landing area.

This thread went down several paths since the original title. Without re-reading the entire thing I recall the original loggers offer being an absurdly high per board foot compared to the current log market as well as the OP making statements to the effect that firwood was worth more than the local sawlog market.

I strongly endorsed hiring a Forester. Still do.

I strongly advise hiring a professional logger to do the harvesting unless the job is mostly TSI or harvesting the odd dying or damaged tree. Thats how to learn without costing yourself a fortune as well as being in a position to judge the value of an offer. You worked all day getting the 2 Ash trees cut skidded, bucked, and hauled to the mill and pocketed $200. You figure your labor, fuel, blown out trailer tire and the $100 offer for a standing tree that was worth" more as firewood" suddenly becomes a pretty good deal. The logger could have gotten the 2 trees onto a truck in 30 minutes, but he would bore cut the veneer tree and left it tree length and sold one well manufactured 10' butt log for $200.

A person experienced with saws and equipment certainly can undertake their own harvest. This forum has many who would offer guidance and answer questions but becoming one's own logging contractor is an entirely different proposition than hiring a forester to manage a timber sale versus accepting a loggers offer that sounded a little too good to be true on the buyers estimate with no tree count.

 Your current experiences may well become one of the most valuable teaching tools ever presented on this forum.

Foresters are trained to manage forests. Loggers who survive physically and financially may not have a "framed certificate" but they hold a working mans "PHD" that was every bit as costly as its Ivy league counter-part. Felling trees to protect the sawlog, bucking decisions, identifying specialty logs etc. Even if one has mastered all the required skills and knowledge many tasks must be accomplished in a time frame and on a size scale to be commercially viable. There likely is more value in the "expertise and marketing skillset" than in the skidder machine hours. Thats all the layman sees; a guy with a chainsaw and an old skidder is "making" x$$ per day and he is. The catch is the value is under the hard hat and not the operating cost of the skidder. Not everyone knocking on the door looking to cut on shares is even close to being equal. Uninformed landowners and high dollar trees attract more than a few scam artists. The best loggers are always booked.

Both Ash and Hard Maple sawlogs and lumber are higher in price now than when this thread was started. The lumber market has gained in price over last year. Significantly. The export log market has diminished due to port and truck issues. It is also possible that if the price offered was based on an export container market the buyer could have lost money. Happens more often than people think in this business. A couple years back China changed its fumigation policy to point of origin from point of receipt in the middle of the export season. Overnight the market evaporated.

The Hard Maple veneer tree a forester marked, and a logger bid on can quickly become firewood if the tree is damaged when felled or lays on the landing too long and stains. A specialty log buyer can't justify making a stop or sending a truck for a handful of logs.

When White Oak hits my yard it can go to one of 6 different sorts all of which require tractor trailer load volumes, and in some cases multiple load volumes. I can give you the phone number for a buyer, mark up your logs for you but if you don't have two trailer loads, hard surface yard, and means to load they won't buy from you at any price and the price from the local guy sawing ties and flooring is only about a 1/4 of what the guy slicing veneer, building whiskey barrels, or quarter sawing thick stock can pay.

Dang once again stave buyer knocks it out of the park. Well said!! Love the value is under the hard hat comment and the best loggers are booked comment. When a landowner tells me we'll the other logger can start right away I ask him if he likes going to a busy restaurant or a very vacant one. Usually makes him think. Or if your building a house you want the guy that can start tomorrow or the guy that's so good he's booked up for a year. 

that was great stavebuyer.  i am glad you spent the time to articulate those thoughts. 

i am getting a schooling on all the ingredients it takes to be successful in the woods.  an overabundance of 5 ingredients cant offset the one you dont have. it takes all the components to come together at the same time or you just lose your ash trying to make it and fail anyway.

Great Post! Thanks @red (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=2502) for the direction. I miss a lot and glad I didn't miss @stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189) 's post. 
8)

That was a good read. Your explanation of what goes on in forestry and the pros vs cons is flawless and you shared insight that only comes with experience.

Again thank you @stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189) and thank you @Jeff (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1) for this great forum.

Thanks for the replies.  Yes Stavebuyer your memory is correct I think the logger offered $35,000 paid up front for ~30,000 bdft.  Problem was the forester I hired said he marked well over 70,000 bdft of timber.  This didn't get me and the logger off on the right foot.  I thought he misrepresented the number of trees he was going to take.  Still do.  In retrospect I know see he probably needed to fall a theoretical 70,000+ bdft to realize an actual 30,000 bdft of saleable logs.

As for the veneer, I'm only taking ash right now and I'm told there is no veneer market for ash.  I'm not really sure I'm willing to tackle veneer logs.  Your point is taken.

Firewood here sells for $400 cdn/cord so the Ash logs need to be at least $575/mbdft (grade 1) to pay better than firewood.

you have done an exemplary job of figuring out whats what and rolling up your sleeves to make sure it is done to your standard.  something we should all applaud no matter what the dollar outcome. 

Is that $400/cd price for log length firewood? Just something to keep in mind, the amount of secondary processing involved with cut/split/dry firewood makes it an apples to applesauce comparison

Quote from: mudfarmer on March 02, 2022, 09:27:30 AM
Is that $400/cd price for log length firewood? Just something to keep in mind, the amount of secondary processing involved with cut/split/dry firewood makes it an apples to applesauce comparison

No it's split so yes it's apples to applesauce yes but really not that big of a deal IMO.  Most would disagree with me but here is my math;

If I look at the price for grade 2 ash it is $325 CDN/mdft.  Looking at my tally sheet for the saw logs I have so far there's 300 cu ft of firewood or 2.2 mbdft of saw logs (1/8" international rule).

$937.50 in firewood vs $715 for saw logs means I realize an extra $222.50 for the time spent splitting 2.6 cords.  Actually a little more than $222.50 because with firewood there is no surprise deductions by the scaler and the firewood buyers pay for the bark.

Above is best case scenario.  Most buyers I've talked to use the Doyle scale then I really get screwed and the $222.50 additional becomes $450 additional.

👍 Thanks for explaining. What are the specs on your "grade 2"?

I have been up to similar antics and have  had to do similar math for low grades. It would only pencil out for me in much higher volume to sell the bottom dollar logs. Another conundrum of the small harvester. 

Firewood and personal lumber is a good outlet for it I think, there are others out there with economy of scale and faster harvesting methods that can feed the pallet log market. $7 logs are a byproduct of some of my work but after harvesting and hauling there is not much meat on the bone unless the volume is there. There is meat on the bone though. Tattoo stavebuyer's post on your forearm  ;D

I have done firewood commercially. Mostly from logs that were incorrectly felled or bucked. Once on the yard the only options were pay to have them hauled off or process them into firewood.

Many people find cutting firewood an enjoyable hobby. It is my favorite chore as well. I don't know what you have for firewood equipment or if you have dealt with the firewood buying public but my advice is to sell the logs that are saleable. If you are inclined to sell firewood the logging byproducts that have no alternative market will pay you $400/cord to process and will be so abundant that they will likely rot before you could get them all cut split and sold.

That's a good word, Stave- trying to keep product from ending up in the firewood pile is such a challenge, you don't need to point logs toward it.

Might be realizing 225$ extra dollars on cordwood for your time but fuel, machinery (processor, chainsaw, woodsplitter, dumptruck etc.) And time and market/customer base to deliver those cords. Run those numbers probably not too different from shipping logs with a whole lot more valuable time invested.

Very well worth it for firewood only grade trees if you have the customers and infrastructure to support but, comparing cut,split,delivered price of wood to low grade logs on the landing doesn't work. 

You have all the expenses of logging it then all the time/expenses processing and delivering it. On top of that you have to build and maintain your customer base. Shipping logs that already exists with the mills and  a lot of them have there own trucks.

Stave buyer hits the home run again very well articulated points of the logging industry!

Quote from: mudfarmer on March 02, 2022, 12:51:23 PM
👍 Thanks for explaining. What are the specs on your "grade 2"?

"10"-12" dia with 2 clear faces, 13" and up 1 clear face"

Quote from: rank on March 02, 2022, 07:26:50 PM

Quote from: mudfarmer on March 02, 2022, 12:51:23 PM
👍 Thanks for explaining. What are the specs on your "grade 2"?

"10"-12" dia with 2 clear faces, 13" and up 1 clear face"

There really should be better markets. Here 10"& up no clear sides will bring $500/mbf at the pallet mill. Doyle scale US dollars. 8'8" oak tie logs 12" & up are 650. Sawn 7x9's are $40,

Quote from: stavebuyer on March 02, 2022, 07:51:20 PM

Quote from: rank on March 02, 2022, 07:26:50 PM

Quote from: mudfarmer on March 02, 2022, 12:51:23 PM
👍 Thanks for explaining. What are the specs on your "grade 2"?

"10"-12" dia with 2 clear faces, 13" and up 1 clear face"

There really should be better markets. Here 10"& up no clear sides will bring $500/mbf at the pallet mill. Doyle scale US dollars. 8'8" oak tie logs 12" & up are 650. Sawn 7x9's are $40,

Yes those prices are better than mine.  I'm sure there are better markets.  But how to find them....that is the question. 

Others need to know that Rank is in a highly tourist area, and if he caters to the camping, tourist or weekly rental crowd, the sky is the limit as to he can get for firewood.

Where I am 50km away, firewood is not as lucrative. The going rate is $340-$350 a cord delivered. And that's after several hours of "value-add" time per cord. With 75 cord on my growing pile, I'd love to get another $50 a cord but that's not going to happen  around here.

Of course, I don't have kids doing the labour for free, and everything is more expensive out in "The County" courtesy of well off city folks visiting.

hardwood pallet logs here in middle tennessee is at $50 per short ton while firewood is at $150 a cord.  it is insane to try harvesting and making firewood when the pallet price is so good for so much less work.  the only way you can make a case for firewood is if your buddy is dropping off tree service disposal right next to your splitter.  

"Highest and best use"

Pallet logs here $200-$300/mbf before trucking.

The answer to most questions is "it depends"

im not pulling tie or grade logs out of my sort anymore. its either pallet or stave.  one less trip to make or check to cash and shakes out about the same. 

Quote from: rank on March 02, 2022, 07:57:53 PM

Yes those prices are better than mine.  I'm sure there are better markets.  But how to find them....that is the question.

As Ron (I think?) has pointed out many times on this forum, that is how a logger makes money. Not by cutting trees but by marketing and selling them to the correct buyers.

Clark

Quote from: Big_eddy on March 02, 2022, 11:20:23 PM
Others need to know that Rank is in a highly tourist area, and if he caters to the camping, tourist or weekly rental crowd, the sky is the limit as to he can get for firewood.

Where I am 50km away, firewood is not as lucrative. The going rate is $340-$350 a cord delivered. And that's after several hours of "value-add" time per cord. With 75 cord on my growing pile, I'd love to get another $50 a cord but that's not going to happen  around here.

Of course, I don't have kids doing the labour for free, and everything is more expensive out in "The County" courtesy of well off city folks visiting.

I don't bother with the camp fire market.   And I gave up on showing the kids an honest day's work after two years of forcing them to help at gunpoint and listening to my wife's claims of child abuse. 

Experience is a great teacher. Take the worse logs you have cut them up to firewood size, split them, stack them. Keep track of your time. Now come close to double that time - to season, market, deal with retail buyers, if delivering - load truck/trailer, drive time, stack again. If not delivering - time to deal with customer coming to your yard, picking up load, wanting to chat, etc.
I sell firewood, I sell logs cut from my property, I run a portable sawmill. I think I fall in line with most advice here, if you can sell a log as a log do so. You will have plenty of wood that will not sell that way to turn into firewood. Unless you are doing large scale firewood with a good processor and handling equipment and probable even with that, fire wood is the most labor/time intensive endeavor of all the logging, lumber, wood based businesses going. It can be done but if done on a small scale I think you will find the time and effort is not worth extra money.
One other idea is to sell firewood logs to a commercial firewood processor.
 

*zombie thread alert *
kissing my ash goodbye

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44721/63D1473B-0A9C-4F31-96C8-30A9A4A03B77.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1653531145)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44721/DB257DD3-39C1-4D37-AA16-B3CC1D37CAB4.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1653531291)

Wow they put some weight on that truck!

wow, that's some axle spacing, how do they turn that thing in the corners??

nice looking wood

Quote from: teakwood on May 26, 2022, 07:47:02 AM
wow, that's some axle spacing, how do they turn that thing in the corners??

nice looking wood

I didn't look at the trailer axles too close but it was probably a 3 axle fixed tridem with the front axle being a steer axle.
.
I was pleasantly surprised by how many were graded prime+, prime and select.  The grade 2's paid about the same as firewood without the work so that's good.  I only got about $150 for the grade 3's and rejects.....they amounted to about a cord I think so I lost about $300.
.
The logger I hired to load with his grapple truck said I was too picky when cutting out sweep.  I put too much sweep in the firewood pile and cut too many 6 footers which affects grade too I guess.  It's tough to know especially since the buyer told me he would rather have two straight 6 footers than a crooked 12 footer.   Logger also loaded quite a few logs that I set aside because they were partially split or cracked.  He says the mill can work around the cracks if they saw it correctly.
.
Live and learn.  All in all not a bad 1st experience.

Quote from: nativewolf on May 26, 2022, 06:56:15 AM
Wow they put some weight on that truck!

I'm guessing he had about 70,000 lbs on.....maybe 105,000 to 110,000 gross.

rank

May have missed this thread... re: quotes

Quotes in Sawmills and Milling (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=119204.msg1911734#msg1911734)

 Did you keep track of your machine hours, saw hours, fuel and cost to pay the guy to load, how many cord of firewood you
 kept ? The problem with checks / pictures is the average landowner who comes on here inquiring about raping a woodlot doesn't see the long math only $$$ signs. Nice load of ash, do a couple of them a week and some firewood it's not bad money. 

I spent about 80 hrs falling, skidding, bucking.  Paid $3500 for a pto skidder and hooked it to a tractor i already own. My skidder driver is on salary he spent about 30 hrs. I sold 2.5 cords of firewood in log form for $550 so far.  Not sure how much firewood is still in the bush....alot.  The logger said him and another fella do two of those loads per day. I haven't got his bill for loading yet..... supposed to be $500

Rank this has been a most interesting thread.  Thank you very much for the continued updates and information.  So at the very worst you've got a nice PTO winch (farmi or ?) and the quite a bit of Ash are cut.  

Is there more to come?

Thank you Nativewolf.  Yes there is about 35 ash left for next winter along with a hundred or so maple and oak.  And a ton of firewood of course

Maybe this was mentioned already and I missed it, but if you are in Ontario you could have a forester prepare a management plan under the Managed Forest Tax Incentive Program (MFTIP). It will cost some money but you will get 75% of your property tax refunded every year for 10 years. You could factor that revenue into your decision. You can do a web search for a list of approved MFTIP plan writers in your area. The rates will very between the foresters on the list, so best to check with a few different plan writers. A woodlot that is properly tree marked and logged will provide additional revenue every 15 or 20 years plus you will probably enjoy walking through the forest when you are done rather than feeling guilty for allowing a mess. 

Mountain_d
Good idea for a plan, but I think the trick to carrying out the harvesting portion of the plan is to find loggers interested enough to pull it off. 
At least that is an inherent problem here in WI. Poor log market and small volume of marked-wood to harvest.

Rank,

Having lived in a suburb of Rochester, NY, I'd have to say that 60 miles north of that city is in the middle of Lake Ontario. Did you perhaps mean south of Rochester?

Quote from: Mountain_d on June 07, 2022, 08:47:45 AM
Maybe this was mentioned already and I missed it, but if you are in Ontario you could have a forester prepare a management plan under the Managed Forest Tax Incentive Program (MFTIP). It will cost some money but you will get 75% of your property tax refunded every year for 10 years. You could factor that revenue into your decision. You can do a web search for a list of approved MFTIP plan writers in your area. The rates will very between the foresters on the list, so best to check with a few different plan writers. A woodlot that is properly tree marked and logged will provide additional revenue every 15 or 20 years plus you will probably enjoy walking through the forest when you are done rather than feeling guilty for allowing a mess.

Thanks for the tip, however because I am a farmer and the 75% property tax discount is already being realized.

Quote from: ID4ster on June 08, 2022, 06:21:38 PM
Rank,

Having lived in a suburb of Rochester, NY, I'd have to say that 60 miles north of that city is in the middle of Lake Ontario.

No it isn't LOL. I'm 40 miles almost due north of Sodus Point with both feet on terra firma :)

.


Hi Rank,

What a great read.  A lot of valuable information here.  

Thanks for following thru with this as time goes along and allowing us to follow your progress.

If your farm is along the lake shore, then I have probably seen some of your lights at night.  You might ask how is that possible over the horizon?

When the humidity and temperature is right, and there is absolutely no. wind.  (normally spring time) The atmosphere acts like a glass fiber and bends the light over the curve of the earth.  We can see your Canadian  shore lights, moving traffic lights, and navigation lights from here at home.  No, not often.

If your farm is Lake Ontario shore property, then I'd guess that we are next door neighbors.  Don't worry, you will probably not be kept awake by our music at night.  

But we do see Canadian lake rescue practice drills often after midnite.

In my opinion, every one with a woods should read this thread.


.

Get some more bids.

I'm a retired forester, still managing my own land. I heard many stories over the years from landowners who had a buyer knock of the door with a handful of cash, telling them everyone else was out to get them. If it seems too good to be true, IT IS!! 

I've read many of the posts and replies suggesting advice of a forester. Diameter limit cuts are almost always BAD for a landowner. I'm sure why this smooth talking potential buyer is so determined to cut your woods the way he wants, you have some valuable wood he wants cheap. 

Trust the professional advice, and advice from those who learned the hard way. A professional logger will have worked with professional foresters. This guy appears to be neither and trusts no one. I suggest you quickly part ways with this person and heed the sound unbiased advice offered here for more than a year. 

I'm speaking from experience of over 30'years of hearing the stories of unscrupulous buyers making it harder for the honest loggers to operate, and the legacy they take from families.

Please keep us informed.