This back cut seems somewhat common here in Alaska? It has a steep angle as it comes down just behind the face cut. I can see how it would provide more space to drive a wedge into smaller diameter trees and also help prevent the tree from falling backwards as easily.
But after trying it myself, I realize that it is more difficult to get the cut accurately. That angle needs a bit of a learning curve to get it even and create a good hinge.
I guess, I am wondering what you think of this?
Thank you!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/61602/A3A71C20-6EAF-4629-8845-A436BEC3967A.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1625560387)
It's generally frowned upon.
If you do have to seriously drive a wedge, chances are it will split a chunk out of the stump before it gets enough "lift" to tip the tree over. Then the brown stuff hits the whirly thing. What wedges are trying to do is LIFT the back side of the trunk, not push it at 45% angle.
There are other tricks to wedging small trees over that are safer and more effective.
That steep angle looks like the first cut that "I" make on an open face cut. I find that it's easier to make that one first, then the level one to match. But yeah, I've NEVER seen THAT one on the 3rd sequence of the cutting steps.
My dad always cut trees similar to that not quite as steep of a back cut. He always said it stops the log from kicking back
are you saying that method is common in the timber industry or common with average dudes that just left walmart with there first chainsaw? I see some stumps like that here in Tennessee and at first its funny ,then I realize it is kinda sad. If my family saw me cutting a tree like that I would have been kicked out of the family.
It's common here, but more because nobody was ever trained in felling technics. and now this bad habit is past on and on. the loggers don't even know what a plastic wedge is.
Yeah a lot of people do it that way around here.i don’t, probably harder to pound wedges in too
Quote from: grabber green on July 09, 2021, 07:17:24 AMcommon with average dudes that just left walmart with there first chainsaw?
This.
NO actual chainsaw training tells you to cut like that. I can see why folks might think it works, but actual physics and OSH approved training suggests otherwise.
Grandpa cut trees like this for years, just proves he was a very lucky man.
Whatever works for a person is not my place to judge.
But I won't do that cut for several reasons
1) the back cut must be perfect or you will wind up with too much or not enough hinge and quite often you don't know what thickness of hinge you need on smaller trees (or any tree) until you 'get there'.
2) the notion that this prevents 'set back' is folly. Look at the physics. You make this cut and it creates a 1/4 or so wide slot and that is where it would 'theoretically' stop the tree, but if you make a standard flat back cut you get the same 1/4" kerf and the same setback. NO difference. (If you are cutting a tree with back lean you need to have a plan to get a wedge or two in place to hold it BEFORE it begins to set back, and this method makes that very hard to do.
3) Once you begin this cut you are committed. There is no way to adjust that hinge in any way and chase or steer the tree by adjusting the hinge as it begins to fall.
4) driving a wedge into that back cut, assuming you can, will just make that thin wood bend out and the tree could still break over backwards.
5) once the tree is down, what do you do? You have to go back and cut the stump off anyway because nobody should leave a stump like that in the woods. So another wasted cut.
6) the are several other methods for smaller trees that allow full control of the fall with wedges and those were discussed in another good thread a couple of weeks ago.
I did just think of a certain situation where I have done (and continue to do) this so in fairness I should mention it. When a tree is right next to an obstacle or a 'save tree' I will make this long cut IF any only if there is no easy way to just bore in the back cut. I only do this to prevent damage to my saw or the adjacent tree.
Bu those are just my 2 pennies and everyone gets different mileage. Just cut safe, have a plan, an escape route, and keep looking up. :) :) :)
Perrenial technique of those who dont know any better, who learned it from those who also didnt know any better.
Any perceived benefits are a fantasy. A bad cut doesnt make one a bad person, and a good person doesnt make that a good cut. Luck shouldnt be a factor either.
Power company does that a lot when felling trees for a new power line. Mark the distance and it's two cuts then keep walking from the back seat. At the final tree you can drop that and you have a domino affect. Or have a skidder come in and start the sequence.
Now days it's not a safe option but it still exists if you need to drop many trees fast. Lots can go wrong from wind to a random person just showing up. I guess if you're posted and marked well it would be a quick way to fell a bunch of trees, then run the choker down the line.
In my area there are several pine post mills. I know very experienced loggers who also cut pine posts and they call that technique-"jumping them off the stump". It is used mostly on smaller pines to work faster as I understand.
Fact is that much of our area pines, especially field/black/jack pines have fallen from ice & snow storms beginning in the 1990's up to past couple winters.
That's not an example of stump jumping.
OK, lets see one? I have an open mind... :D
Thanks for the replies everyone.
Very good thoughts and confirming my suspicions.
I've seen it done by locals that have a lot of sawing....but are not professionals.
I am not a tree faller by any scope of the imagination but it's my understanding that a Humboldt undercut notch is the most predictable and will send the tree butt the furthest from the stump.
It should not be confused with Stumpjumping: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=69713.msg1046547#msg1046547
In my opinion the problems with that ramp back cut are
1. Its leaving substantial footage on the stump so a bit of a fools errand in sawlogs. Requires you to buck off a good piece of wood after to clean a sawlog once on the ground. Wasted wood and extra step. And chain may hit the dirt bucking the triangle off.
2. If wedging is required you are now trying to jack the tree on fewer fibers that come to a weak point, which are being loaded tangentially in a way that theyre pretty weak and springy. Conventional wedging or jacking puts endgrain in compression which is exceptionally stout and rigid.
I could see an argument that it could help prevent a barberchair from coming out at you but being its a longer cut in linear inches, its a slower cut and thus takes more time which helps induce a chair. The top says we are going the stump says no you arent. Better saw fast.
In chair happy wood a fast sharp saw and several other types of cuts would be superior without the two issues above. Plunge in and gut the center then saw out the back or backcut in flat from the back, 2 inches above the first cut to form a stair step to lock out a chair.
Don't do it that way. :P
Quote from: Magicman on July 09, 2021, 05:30:43 PM
I am not a tree faller by any scope of the imagination but it's my understanding that a Humboldt undercut notch is the most predictable and will send the tree butt the furthest from the stump.
It should not be confused with Stumpjumping: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=69713.msg1046547#msg1046547
It would depend on how the face is setup, depth, and if there's anything extra put on the stump or butt to get it to jump the stump.
Quote from: kantuckid on July 09, 2021, 09:25:29 AM
In my area there are several pine post mills. I know very experienced loggers who also cut pine posts and they call that technique-"jumping them off the stump". It is used mostly on smaller pines to work faster as I understand.
Fact is that much of our area pines, especially field/black/jack pines have fallen from ice & snow storms beginning in the 1990's up to past couple winters.
Stump jumping can be done a few different ways but that's farm cutting and a good way too loose a tree sideways. If I wanted to jump a stump I'm likely to put in a full faced Dutchman in my sight cut with a deep but shallow angled humboldt face with a kicker off the stump to get stuff really moving.
I was helping some guys, most of whom I did not know, to put up some firewood for a hunting camp. When one of them went up to some fairly large trees and started dropping them with that method I gave him lots of room to work. Scary. Guys like that, I think, feel that the method is validated every time they use it and live to tell about it.
It is a shame that chainsaw felling and bucking is going backwards. Todays powerful, lightweight chainsaws allow you to cut trees better than ever before. Most of my logs come in from tree service and it makes me sick to see what they have ruined. A walnut tree, square but cut right on the ground to get below the lowest cat face could be a $500 log but busted up is a $70 7' sawlog and so it goes.
I see tons of those stumps here cause every farmer hands a off shore worker a chain saw to cut trees , they believe it makes the tree go the way they want it , yes I know but they think that and safer cause it should not split in their face , you guys have no idea on stuff I see here from guys running saws and I'm sure half of them have never ran a saw ever before
The last time I saw a back cut like that, the tree it was attached to was laying across my neighbors utility trailer. Luckily, it was his tree and he did the cutting.
I have shown these pictures here before....and the chainsaw guy lived.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5279.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198199)
The first cut but it only goes about half way through the trunk.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5278.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198318)
The tree actually fell toward this side. ??
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/IMG_5280.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1541198505)
The horizontal cut is seen on the left side of the stump.
They should probably stick to chainsaw sculpting.
If my Father saw any of the stumps in this post. :o
My brother cut some trees on my Father's land. WOW!!! He had a fit!! I thought for sure he was going to cut every stump that my brother had cut!! He did not want people to think that he did not know how to cut trees down.
He never said that about my stumps. ;)
We all make an ugly stump once in a while because of odd conditions or a bad moment.
I suffer from this malady a little bit too (checking stumps and making silent judgements). I just finished a run of about 100 small trees and there were a few that got ugly if you just look at the stump after the fall. Because they were small in very dense growth and I couldn't push or drag them down, a few of my stumps looked 'very odd' :D when I went to 'plan b'. I pretty much cut every stump clean and low after the fall because I didn't want anybody else to see it and try to guess what I was thinking. I hate high stumps anyway. A machine should roll over any stump if done right. All you need is to have a steering wheel ripped from your hands once when it catches a stump and you know what I mean. Dang near broke 3 fingers that way once when the steering wheel turned into a fan blade. ;D SO they should either be high enough to see in the snow, or low enough to drive over. IMHO anyway.
I have cut one larch, once like that. But it was on a steep incline, real steep. Shale ground, very slippery. I could stand only at one place around the tree, and the grip was not firm.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on July 10, 2021, 06:48:51 AM
We all make an ugly stump once in a while because of odd conditions or a bad moment.
I suffer from this malady a little bit too (checking stumps and making silent judgements). I just finished a run of about 100 small trees and there were a few that got ugly if you just look at the stump after the fall. Because they were small in very dense growth and I couldn't push or drag them down, a few of my stumps looked 'very odd' :D when I went to 'plan b'. I pretty much cut every stump clean and low after the fall because I didn't want anybody else to see it and try to guess what I was thinking. I hate high stumps anyway. A machine should roll over any stump if done right. All you need is to have a steering wheel ripped from your hands once when it catches a stump and you know what I mean. Dang near broke 3 fingers that way once when the steering wheel turned into a fan blade. ;D SO they should either be high enough to see in the snow, or low enough to drive over. IMHO anyway.
My problem I had was taking out my far side holding wood or taking it too far, sometimes my hinge would be lower on the face notch than I liked, I pretty much got really good with levelling off my hinge though without even looking. The thing that helps with not taking out my holding wood is I pretty much cut the hinge from the back cut in 3 movements, I’ll sink the bar ina few inches, make sure I’m level with notch, go in a few more inches look around the tree and see if each side is equal holding wood(if not adjust, go in a little to correct and re check), the last step is the final gunning to the hinge, I started also using my gunning site for the back cut, point it to exactly where you had it on the first notch cut, should keep you even.
I can't speak for all, but I think most of us have these small issues at some point. It is part of training your instincts. I know folks who have issues getting either the bottom of the notch or the back cut level and having them both on the same plane. I have similar issues to yours and found similar solutions which is mainly taking time to check where I am, it only takes seconds to stop the saw and look. Getting the edge of the back cut parallel with the edge (corner) of the notch is critical, then you can steer from there, but you mostly have to start with parallel lines, before steering. That is, until you get into bigger wood where you have to cut from more than one side, then it is even more critical to look and correct as you go. I think it's just time and experience needed to develop good instincts and habits that you can rely on. Every time I look at my stump and see a dead parallel hinge I smile because I work hard to get it that way after so many tapered hinges or worse, cutting through the holding wood on one side.
KNOW YER HOLDING WOOD-buckin billy ray
I think this discussion is a rehash. :D
Quote from: kantuckid on July 10, 2021, 08:15:43 AM
I think this discussion is a rehash. :D
Aren't most of them? :D :) I think that too, but then I remember that we have more 'guests' reading these posts than we have members and they come, read, and take it away to use sometimes, without understanding it or asking questions.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on July 10, 2021, 08:10:19 AM
I can't speak for all, but I think most of us have these small issues at some point. It is part of training your instincts. I know folks who have issues getting either the bottom of the notch or the back cut level and having them both on the same plane. I have similar issues to yours and found similar solutions which is mainly taking time to check where I am, it only takes seconds to stop the saw and look. Getting the edge of the back cut parallel with the edge (corner) of the notch is critical, then you can steer from there, but you mostly have to start with parallel lines, before steering. That is, until you get into bigger wood where you have to cut from more than one side, then it is even more critical to look and correct as you go. I think it's just time and experience needed to develop good instincts and habits that you can rely on. Every time I look at my stump and see a dead parallel hinge I smile because I work hard to get it that way after so many tapered hinges or worse, cutting through the holding wood on one side.
There's nothing wrong with a tapered hinge especially if you're trying to get something to happened to the tree from the stump. There's times it's acceptable to have a sloping stump, have I cut a tree off like this yes to slip it off the stump sideways into a lay. Say you want to slip one off the side of stump you will put a sight cut in at an angle use an over hand face that leaves a small full face dutchman this allows you to leave a little hinge then creates a small ramp to let the tree start in the correct direction then pop off the side.
Quote from: tawilson on July 09, 2021, 09:40:42 PM
The last time I saw a back cut like that, the tree it was attached to was laying across my neighbors utility trailer. Luckily, it was his tree and he did the cutting.
I would like to add that he was my go to guy for tree cutting before I found this forum and learned a couple things.
Quote from: Skeans1 on July 10, 2021, 09:36:52 AM
There's nothing wrong with a tapered hinge especially if you're trying to get something to happened to the tree from the stump. There's times it's acceptable to have a sloping stump, have I cut a tree off like this yes to slip it off the stump sideways into a lay. Say you want to slip one off the side of stump you will put a sight cut in at an angle use an over hand face that leaves a small full face dutchman this allows you to leave a little hinge then creates a small ramp to let the tree start in the correct direction then pop off the side.
Quite true of course, but I have been working hard the last few of years to improve the accuracy of my cuts and get my feel for where the bar tip is more refined and predictable. Working on perfecting the fundamentals. I have been reading tricks and tips you and others have posted here for a few years now that I am anxious to try, but I can't do that with any safety if I don't have the basics nailed. It takes a lot of trees to get good enough. I am waiting to that 'right tree' to try a Dutchman with a snipe on the stump to steer it. All in due time, fundamentals matter a lot. When I taper a hinge on purpose (and I do often) to get some swing, that's OK, but when I do it by accident, I get mad at myself.