Am I too strict

[Edvantage]

My three boys just bought a 4 wheeler. It's a 1988 Honda Fortrax paid $200. They fixed it up and got it running really did a nice job. The idea was they could get out to the good ice fishing spot about 2 miles out. Problem is that don't have helmets, temps have been around 0 degrees and we've been hammered with snow. Plus they want to fish late in the evening to catch walleye. I don't like the idea for a number of reasons. Whoever gets to ride the sled at least needs a helmet. I have no way to help them if they get in trouble. I think they are going to be stuck in the deep snow and have trouble at the rate the snow is piling up. I also don't think they have enough gear to stay warm if something goes wrong. I told them they can stay closer instead of 2 miles out or  wait for a little warmer weather and they have helmets. They are 16,15 and 11 years old. Any thoughts? I can't join them due to a foot injury.

[Runningalucas]

No, it's idiotic what they're wanting to do.   Be a parent, and use your judgement.  You've got obvious decades of 'experience' under your belt by way of age, and they???? They remember having their butts wiped, and pissy their ice cream hit the floor that one time; that's the depth of their experience, and more to the point common sense, and critical thinking skills.

Do what you need to do, and it's just too bad anymore there's CPS to scold you for doing such. 

[WV Sawmiller]

  You know your kids and how mature they are. I don't know anything about how thick the ice is or how safe it is to ride around on. If you are not comfortable with it I'd say no.

[Edvantage]

They are very capable. In these weather conditions I always like to make sure I have a way out. They don't have a backup plan if they breakdown or get stuck and are really underestimating the cold. It was -18 this morning. If they end up walking in deep snow and extreme cold it can turn bad quick.

[SwampDonkey]

You're being dad, looking out for'm. Tell'm how and why it has to be. ;D

[Southside]

In my old job I have pulled more than a few bodies out of the woods and waters because people did not use good judgement.  I was bullet proof when I was their age and it was a good thing that boundaries were enforced.  You are not their buddy, you are their father - big difference and one too many parents don't understand these days. 

At those temps it would not take long for serious frostbite to set in.  Crossing a pressure ridge or misjudging the ice could be catastrophic, and yes I have seen all of those and more.  

Personally I think allowing them to go with no supervision and no backup, even with helmets, would not be a good idea.  Sometimes the answer is simply "No".  They will understand when they are older.  

[Edvantage]

Thanks for the input. Sometimes I don't know how to be a dad my dad died when I was a kid. I learned to hunt fish etc alone. I somehow survived but because I had no dad to bale me out I had to think a lot harder about my back-up plan. There was no cell phone to call dad or anyone to call for help. Now everyone assumes if they have a phone the are safe. 

[Tacotodd]

I think that you are just going to have to "lay down the law". It's a phrase that I heard many times growing up. I didn't like it, but looking back I sure do appreciate it!

[doc henderson]

Just say NO.  they will love and respect you for it later in life.  and if not, at least they are still alive.  I had a lot of near misses I learned from, might of just been lucky, and lost a few friend along the way.  You owe them nothing.  It is possible to be too strict, but not when you are talking life threatening conditions.  If they are pissy about it, send them to their room.  only you fully realize the potential devastation to your family.  no question in my opinion.

[Walnut Beast]

It's better to be safe than sorry. You need to tell them you love them to much and your not going to take a chance and regret it later

[Jeff]

4 wheelers aint snow machines. 

[Walnut Beast]

Actually cell phones die pretty fast when it's cold. I went on a 3 1/2 mile midnight excursion through pretty deep snow with the German Shepherd last night for a workout at - 4 degree and -30 wind chill. My phone had 74 percent and was dead before I got back. Pretty crazy yes!!! I was all froze up till I got warmed up then sweaty clothes from all the exertion when I got back. The point is if something happens and they get exhausted and can't go anymore and stop moving really bad things happen

[Runningalucas]

Actually cell phones die pretty fast when it's cold. I went on a 3 1/2 mile midnight excursion through pretty deep snow with the German Shepherd last night for a workout at - 4 degree and -30 wind chill. My phone had 74 percent and was dead before I got back. Pretty crazy yes!!! I was all froze up till I got warmed up then sweaty clothes from all the exertion when I got back. The point is if something happens and they get exhausted and can't go anymore and stop moving really bad things happen

And that right there is dangerous.  I dress for the weather, and try to stay mindful of getting to wet from sweat; one wrong move, and you could be stuck in cold weather, and freeze up fairly fast.  As they say, some s000 happens, and nothing's going to change that. 

[mike_belben]

I got to do whatever i wanted as a kid and got into some stupid stuff, i think getting myself into scary things with no bailout made me a bit more of a man early on. It was obvious i was different than the sheltered kids in bootcamp.




As a parent id be worried sick and probably say no.  But my now 7yr old by that time will probably do it anyway or run away or something.  Hes bad with adhd and doesnt listen to a thing i say.  I guess id go too.. If i couldnt id pack him up with emergency stuff for a night out in the woods and agree on a home by blank time or im coming looking for you. Good thing about snow is its easy to track unless a storm comes in.

I dunno man.  Tough call. Im scared for you.  A friend of mine had a huge blowout with his wife over exactly this situation.. His kids wanted to night fish overnight alone, mom said no, dad said they wanna fish, not go get high, theyre goin and we arent pickin them up if they call whining.  They went, got soaked and lived as the story goes.

[Hilltop366]

One of the problems with traveling by machine is it will easily take you much further away from home than you can ever get back from if it brakes down or gets stuck.

So they understand why you are concerned perhaps have them do some research (a group project) on the dangers of winter travelling, ice safety, hypothermia, frostbite, ATV safety and what are the things they should have with them incase of emergency. 

[Ianab]

I'm in the say no camp too. Simply too many things that could go wrong. Explain the reasons you are saying no, and work out a safer plan for a shorter "expedition".

Being out in that sort of weather with darkness setting in and a broken (or crashed) bike is a bad spot to be in.  If it's Summer, not so much of problem. If it's only a 1/4 mile from home, not so much of a problem etc. 

[doc henderson]

depends on if the 16 y/o is basically an adult. and will take care of the 11 y/o.  if he was, you would not have made this post.  My old IM partners wife came to me as their pediatrician, and asked when her oldest son could start mowing the yard.  i told her it depends on all the stuff the kid could already do, and what the dad had taught him.  not every kid is a "farm kid".  you have to make a judgment.  we all had enough experience to not get killed going to the nest level.  many kids today are not even at the first level.  

[doc henderson]

many natives sent kids on an overnight wilderness experience, but the kids did not know that adults were near and making sure they were ok.  The kids did not know, so it was courageous, but in real danger (like a wolf or bear) the elders, willing to risk their own lives to let the kids grow old, were hiding in the trees.  if you are not available to rescue them, forget it.  I have looked into the eyes of a mother to tell her that their child was dead after driving/riding in a car full of "kids".  there is nothing worse than that.

[Walnut Beast]

Farm kids get hurt and killed to. My friends brother that is also in the heavy equipment game lost one boy that 15 and was with a girl 16 and she died to. They rolled a car on a dirt road 1 mile from there  farm and his other son is lucky to be alive after he got pinned up against a tree with the tractor in reverse with his brother that died in the car accident. And he has scars and some physical damage. Don't let them go alone!!

[DMax82]

4 wheelers aint snow machines.

This. I get the excitement of wanting to use their new machine but this is not the right tool for the job. Sounds like it hasn't really been put through its paces yet, so mechanical failure could be a real issue, especially in such extreme conditions.

[Old Greenhorn]

Sorry, missed this last night. I think I understand your conundrum. I can comment 3 ways then give you some thoughts if they are any help. The posts above cover it pretty well.
 Frist, as a Dad, I would say 'heck no, come up with a different plan'.
 Second, as an adult who has taken hundreds of young men and a few young ladies out on multi-day wilderness experiences far from a trail head or immediate help I would say "tell me about your training, emergency plans, escape route/ evac plan, injury treatment plans and skills, etc." I have tent camped with young men for 3 days at a time in -20 temps but it took years for all of us to develop the skills, clothing, attitude, and teamwork to make that happen and have a blast doing it. Still, there were unpleasant and very difficult moments and one medical emergency (me) where decision making skills were put to the test.
 Third, as a first responder trained and experienced in surface ice and swiftwater rescue, I know that if I were called out on such a job, after we had mitigated and resolved the situation I would likely say to the parents either out loud, or under my breath "Well, I guess you didn't think that one all the way through, did ya?"

 Now, with those three thoughts in my head maybe here are some things that can help in your situation. First, suggest something in closer (a LOT closer) as a starting point, Jumping into something so far out is foolish and does not pass the risk/benefit test. Set a goal to increase their skills, a winter survival course, for instance or some other form of training. Wilderness First Aid is a class that will serve them well for many years, is a multi-day class if done right, and when we ran these around the winter time, we would lean heavily on skills used in extreme cold and hypothermic conditions and they included live scenarios out in the snow using the tools and equipment they would have on a normal outing only. Look for a compromise that will give them easier escapes when things get sideways, the wind picks up and they can learn for themselves without high risk, what other tools they might need. Two miles is a mighty long way in a white out and you can outrun the wind when you see that white sheet coming down the lake. That 4 wheeler might be a very neat new tool for them and they want to test it and use it. But can it carry shelter, stove, and overnight gear for all of them? will it handle the drifting conditions? Do they have a crystal clear picture of what will turn their trip into a 'no-go' situation where they should turn around or bug out. Reading the signs becomes a critical issue in those conditions. The debilitating effects of hypothermia are downright scary and life threatening and they sneak up on a person slowly until there is no time left to 'fix it' without external support. Both times I got hit, it took me out, big time and I was pretty frightened. Loss of motor skills, (walking and even standing become difficult) altered mental status, inability to think or make any rational decisions all tend to make one think twice about the 'next time'. I was lucky both times. I was with a crew that had the training, knew what to do, and did it without hesitation. In one case outside support was pretty handy if needed. In the other case it was two days walk away and things could have gotten ugly quick. My crew saved me and by the time we saw another person 3 days later, I needed nothing and was good as new.

 I am not trying to paint a black picture here, but these are the things that I believe your son and his friends need to think through. If they want that kind of adventure, they have to put in the work and time to build the skills and tools to do so and make it back home with a good story. Baby steps.
 Good Luck 

[doc henderson]

nicely put OGH.  life lessons only help if you live to use them in the future.  If this is the stuff they want to do, let them get prepared.  In scouts, out winter campouts have a warm place.  kids are not allowed on the ice.  if they break that rule, home you go.  When I was a scout, Tip Tyler dropped a hatchet into the river on a winter campout.  He had climbed a tree and was out on a limb (literally) that hung out over the river.  about 6 inches of snow, and very cold.  I was 11 y/o.  he had me build a big fire, and he waded into the river barefoot to feel around with his feet and find it.  there was a little ice along the edges.  It all turned out ok.  he is still alive as far as I know, I do not think he would do it again.  Out one adult leader with the only car had gone to town.  things like this are not done.  Philmont may seem like a nice scout place, but scouts have been lost.  fall, bear attacks, and floods washing them away in their tents at night camping near the river.  start their training, then I would still only do this if needed.  If I as a parent had no experience, I would get a well versed ice fisherman or someone from the area to help them along.  

[doc henderson]

my buddy Dallas spreads manure.  lots of hunting with a bow, trapping, fishing.  got this yesterday.  he was fishing 200 feet back from open water,  shelter, heater, another guy with him.  well planned day time trip.  



 

[dgdrls]

Your first instincts with kids are the ones to listen to. 

First, Tell them to check the local ice fishing reports for ice thickness first
Once you know that tell them a foot expedition on the ice when OTHER sportsmen are out is OK.  No quad this time.
Teach them safety first and hold all three of them responsible. 

D

[Jeff]

Quads and snow mobiles need to come in pairs. The oddsof a machine breaking down are actually douibled, but the odds of your being left stranded are greatly reduced. I walked 3.5 miles out of the carlton marsh a few years back and the only reason was that I was by myself on one machine.  

[Peter Drouin]

A big NO from me.

[Edvantage]

Boys just got fishing report from friends. Apparently deep snow on lake has a layer of slush under it. Even snowmobiles are getting stuck. All I could say was I told you so!

[Ron Scott]

Not a safe environment for the young and inexperienced with a redone 4 wheeler 2 miles out on lake ice at night. A definite no! 

What lake are they fishing? Can they be tutored by some experienced local fishermen familiar with the lake area first?

[scsmith42]

Do you have access to any portable radios or walki talkies? If they go you might send some with them, with you keeping one too.

[LIL]

Have you let them read or have you read to them the replies in this thread?  Some great advice in here to share.  Also will show them you're not alone in your thinking, and you're definitely not being "strict". 

LIL 

[doc henderson]

as a dad, if I can not go, and I am not available to go if needed for help,...  you have heard enough I am sure.     .  there are only a few grown ups I would trust to take my kids on any dangerous ventures.

[K-Guy]

Edvantage

Sometimes NO! really means " I love you!"

[OntarioAl]

The answer should be No
And if the Lake you are referring to is Superior
The answer is No But H--L No

Al
 from the other side of Lake Superior

[Edvantage]

Superior is a no for sure. Ice is just starting to form in keweenaw bay. Weather's starting to break maybe boys can get out on portage lake this weekend. They will be walking which will be better than walking and pulling a stuck four wheeler.