iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

please help...hire forester or not?

Started by rank, June 07, 2021, 12:43:39 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rank

I don't know if this is the right forum but here goes....

Last week I was approached by a logger that wants to cut hardwoods (maple, red oak, white oak, cherry. ash) from approx 65 ac in 4 parcels.  Some of this bush has been logged approx 25 years ago and other other hasn't been cut since 50 years.  He wants to take more or less everything over 18" diameter and say it will be ready again in 15 years if I don't allow the neighbor to tap it again.  Neighbor has had a maple syrup pipeline in one 15 acre parcel for 7 years and the logger says it has cost me $10,000 in lost value because the wood is now stained.

I told him I was thinking about hiring a forester to mark the trees and he said it was a bad idea because they only ruin your bush.  He said they mark way to many small trees and leave too many big ones and their #1 goal is for them to come back in a few years and charge again for marking.

The logger has given me several references.  I have talked to two of them and both are happy.  They say he pays before he starts falling and he does a good job.  Talked to a forester and he said a diameter limit cut is a bad idea because be may wind up clear cutting small sections where all the trees are mature.  I went to look at a job he did and it seems like he opened the bush up nicely to let sunlight in.  Not clear cut by any stretch.  There is alot of brush lying on the floor but this is the owner's responsibility to clean up.

The logger is offering $30,000 CDN dollars for an estimated 35,000 bdft over approx 65 acres.  The logs are destined for over seas.

Interested in any thoughts, opinions or advice you all may have.

Thanks

mike_belben

boy youve got a hot button question there and i dont think any blanket answer will work.  it could go east or west and you probably wont know until after the timber is gone.  


your age, the forests maturity, and your market timing suggest a pretty big harvest is wise right now, the prices are up and you arent getting younger. but the quality of the wood vs the offer price and local market conditions require an experienced eye to determine with certainty if it is a great, fair, or poor offer.  this is part of what a forestor is for. just like loggers,  there are good, bad and indifferent forestors too.

good on you for the diligence, it will pay off.  youve seen his jobsites, called his references and are still seeking more education.  seriously, good for you. not many do all that and it can cost them dearly.  i think you are just the person to read this exceptional publication.  it is 100 pages and will learn you up fast.  click the brick colored link to download the PDF

Your Woodlands Portfolio - Woodland Owner's Forestry Guide | Tennessee Timber Consultants, LLC
Praise The Lord

Blue Noser


BargeMonkey

 Ive got a mixed opinion on this, 80%+ of what I buy is private stumpage similar to what you've described so im not going to say you HAVE TO have a forester BUT ive seen so many people get ripped off and your left holding the bag or having a mess. How much is the forester going to charge ? Be my first question. 

Southside

Would you blindly invest your retirement money into an account run by someone you have never done business with? Who tells you the other guy is the one after your money, and you really don't know the financial world inner workings? 

That is what you are facing. Could be the best move you ever made. Without someone representing your interest, it could be a disaster.

Personally if I am in unfamiliar territory then I find it worthwhile to hire a professional guide. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

PoginyHill

Loggers have their own biases too. They prefer to spend their time cutting and hauling timber they'll make money on. It is hard to go wrong with a reputable forester. It can go wrong without one. In many states foresters are licensed. I don't think loggers are licensed.
Kubota M7060 & B2401, Metavic log trailer, Cat E70B, Cat D5C, 750 Grizzly ATV, Wallenstein FX110, 84" Landpride rotary hog, Classic Edge 750, Stihl 170, 261, 462

Autocar

Never Never sell on a diameter cut, sell ten tree's a hundred tree's or what you feel should come out . I am not big on foresters ask around and get some other loggers to walk it with you . But again never sell on a diameter cut if you want a woods !
Bill

stavebuyer

The trees need to be marked and measured prior to agreeing to any sale. Unless you have that data you have no idea what you are selling. Solicit sealed bids, lump sum up front with a damage deposit by invitation only. If you need to ask; than please hire a professional forester(and check their references as well) to mark and manage your sale.

The market is at record high pricing for many species. It would be an excellent time to sell.




Claybraker

Quote from: rank on June 07, 2021, 12:43:39 PM

Last week I was approached by a logger that wants to cut 
Loggers always want to cut. It's what they do. Not a bad thing. What do you want to do? What does your management plan say? I get unsolicited offers all the time.

JBlain

I see you are in New York.  If you don't have a plan,  I would recommend putting one together.  It assesses what you have, what condition and what your goals are over time.  Nothing wrong with a heavy harvest.  When I here a blanket 18in and up diameter cut that is a red flag to me.  Forester or a good knowledgeable logger could meet your goals.  My personal preference on high quality sales is to put them out to bid.   
Josh

BradMarks

A good logger and a good forester would have respect for the others position, they often times are dependent on EACH other. My take is your "logger to be" doesn't respect the forestry aspect of management, but understands the cutting quite well. I'd find another logger if you truly intend to log.

Bruno of NH

 There is a market for tap hole maple.
The logger needs to find the right buyer. 
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

bluthum

Do you not have a state forestry department?  Their general opinions are usually free and the more info you have the better.

Texas Ranger

I compare raising trees to raising cows.  You have a herd and you want to sell some.  Buyer hears about it and comes in, looks at cattle, and says, I will give you $.50 cents a pound for my choice of head.  You know your cows, but not the market. Do you take them to market and pay a fee, or let the buyer take what he wants at that Price? 

The forester should be the middle man market, he knows the values, he can judge/mark the trees, keeping a good growing manageable stand, he can draw up a contract to protect you and the land.  The contract has to be more than " I agree to sell and you agree to buy".  Are there good loggers?  Yes.  Are there good foresters? Yes. And there are the other kind?  Yes.

Do your research.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

nativewolf

Quote from: Bruno of NH on June 07, 2021, 06:04:39 PM
There is a market for tap hole maple.
The logger needs to find the right buyer.
Indeed !   Agree with the general advice to hire a forester.  If the logger does not know there is a market for tapped  maple that is not good, of course he could be right in that you have tap stains in former veneer logs.  
Don't worry if it looks messy on the ground, nature takes care if that.  Better messy than the leave trees scraped.  Very good idea to cut lots of poorly formed trees during the harvest, work for the logger but good for the future of the stand.  
Liking Walnut

Ianab

A logger and a forester have different skill sets. Some overlap, and the best guys in both fields have some understanding of the other's work. But someone can be a "good" logger (safe / tidy / efficient) with little knowledge of actual forestry. Like how trees grow and forests regenerate. Likewise a forester should have some knowledge of the mechanics of actual harvesting, simply so they can mark out the harvest / skid trails / leave trees in a way that makes the harvest practical. 


The disagreements might come when a forester marks some "junk" trees for removal. The forester knows they are suppressed / stunted / overcrowded etc, and are never going to be a decent tree. So they mark them for removal, even though they are only "firewood" value. The logger doesn't actually want them, but has to take them anyway. Likewise they may leave a healthy and marketable tree as seed or shelter, knowing it will help the regeneration, and be even larger and more valuable in the next harvest. Hence why a diameter limit cut isn't usually the best option. 


So the OP's logger is probably both honest and competent, as a logger, based on the reference jobs. But is his harvesting plan what's best for the forest (and the OP)? That's the question that a Forester can answer. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

chevytaHOE5674

Would you sell your families prized jewels to first guy that came along with cash or would you seek out someone skilled in appraising jewels to determine their value first? Once their value is established you can access weather the offer is a "good deal" or not.


dgdrls

60 Miles north of Rochester So, Northumberland Ontario area I'm guessing?

IMHO I would get a forester in to at least have a conversation
and learn what the markets are doing and what average splits
are paying.    

best
D

rank

Thanks for all the replies.

Update:
I asked the Logger to come and mark the trees he wants.  That should happen the in the next couple of days.  The Forester is supposed to come on Friday so he will be able to see  what the Logger wants.  Hopefully the two agree.

rank

Quote from: dgdrls on June 07, 2021, 08:32:22 PM
60 Miles north of Rochester So, Northumberland Ontario area I'm guessing?

IMHO I would get a forester in to at least have a conversation
and learn what the markets are doing and what average splits
are paying.    

best
D
A little south of there in Picton

rank

Quote from: nativewolf on June 07, 2021, 06:40:24 PM
Quote from: Bruno of NH on June 07, 2021, 06:04:39 PM
There is a market for tap hole maple.
The logger needs to find the right buyer.
If the logger does not know there is a market for tapped  maple that is not good, of course he could be right in that you have tap stains in former veneer logs.  
He says he can sell them.... they just aren't worth as much.  He says they will be stained and the bottom log will be worth less.

rank

He said the woods will be ready to cut again in 15 years.
He also said a hardwood grows approx 1" in circumference per year.
That means if he cuts everything above 18", the trees that he leaves today will be will be 72" circumference (22" diameter in 15 years).
Does 22" seem like right size to cut again?

Clark

The logger says you have ~35K bdft of timber he would cut. How will you know that is what he cuts? Who is accounting for the timber that is cut? If you have no way of figuring that out you have two options: 1) Trust the logger with your family's 25-50 years of growing trees or 2) hire someone who can keep track of the cut trees and make sure you get paid.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

rank

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on June 07, 2021, 08:13:38 PM
Would you sell your families prized jewels to first guy that came along with cash or would you seek out someone skilled in appraising jewels to determine their value first? Once their value is established you can access weather the offer is a "good deal" or not.
He's not exactly the first guy to come along.  He's logged for several farmers I know going back to 1992 and nobody has anything bad to say so far.  One of my neighbors hired a forester and put the job out for tender and this Logger won the tender.

rank

Quote from: Clark on June 07, 2021, 10:19:32 PM
The logger says you have ~35K bdft of timber he would cut. How will you know that is what he cuts? Who is accounting for the timber that is cut?
Yep my thoughts exactly.  That's why I asked him today to mark the trees he wants.  Then we know where we stand.

Thank You Sponsors!