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Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit

Started by Jim1934, July 07, 2021, 10:03:07 AM

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Jim1934

A Utuber described gluing the ball bearing for the motor output shaft
into its housing to cure a sloppy fit.

 I am inspecting a similar unit for use on circle sawmill carriage drive.
The unit is from a Cub Cadet 1650, new to me, and I dont know its history.
I can wiggle the now free end of the output shaft and I either have a destroyed
inner race or a sloppy fit of outer race in its cavity. Haven't got that far to choose.

Purpose of post is too see if either is common.
Seems there is a very small chance this was never a press fit for alignment
purposes but that is a stretch.

Thanks, Jim

mike_belben

Praise The Lord

mike_belben

Im sorry for the delay jim.  


The sundstrand 15 i have sitting here apart is off a deere 140 so it may be completely different.  But the output shaft and bearing are a nice tappy tappy tight fit.
Praise The Lord

Jim1934

Thanks- appreciate it. Hope $132 bearing is not shot. Perform autopsy tomorrow.

Southside

To answer your question about the glue.  Yes it is done with some high speed, press to fit, applications.  My moulder calls for use of Loctite bearing adhesive - I think 620 is the number but would have to check, and yes it works.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

Mine has cylindrical roller bearings oriented axially around the shaft axis. Non tapered.


Is there a chance yours is tapered and shimmed to set the clearance space in a register or something like that? Sorta Timken style?
Praise The Lord

Jim1934

Quote from: mike_belben on July 07, 2021, 11:03:09 PM
Mine has cylindrical roller bearings oriented axially around the shaft axis. Non tapered.


Is there a chance yours is tapered and shimmed to set the clearance space in a register or something like that? Sorta Timken style?
Mine are rollers and the bearing is tight in its housing.
Don't know if tapered but going to leave it as is.
Knocked out all the seals. Trying to find hyd repair kit. Get
lots of 'out of stock' or 'obsolete' returns.
Thanks for the lead on bearing. I thought it was ball. Still have the wiggle in the free end of shaft.


Jim1934

Mike- Please help again.

My gas engine runs in a direction opposite to the rotation direction required
 by the Sundstrand U hydro unit on a 1650 Cub Cadet.

Can gear pump be "reversed', so to speak ?
How will that affect auxiliary hydraulic ports used for power lifting, etc.
Not exited about driving input shaft from its other end. Very short shaft extension.

Thanks, Jim.


Jim1934

Using tranny from Cub Cadet 1650 to power sawmill carriage.
Kohler gas engine to be used to turn Sundstrand U hydro gear pump
rotates in opposite direction to what is required.

What are issues created by running pump "backwards" ?
Can gear pump be turned upside down?
Will axle forward now be reverse?
Will aux. hyd. ports used for options be affected?
Not excited to drive opposite end of pump input shaft.

Thanks very much. Jim.


mike_belben

I dont think theyre birotational inputs.  I have a feeling the charge pump will be trying to push fluid down into the sump.  


Drive it from the back where the fan stub is if you have no choice.  The axle shafts wont care which direction, just move the lever.  Theyre infinitely variable forward and reverse output.  Some garden tractors limited the reverse speed but its in the linkages for safety and can be removed.  The pump itself can output equal speed in both directions.  Bolens was limited reverse and ford fairway mowers also. 
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

I replied to your other thread.  In the future please try to keep them all in one place.  People will follow a single build thread just fine.  If you need to get a specific persons attention just use the bat signal.  Put an @ sign in front of their screen name and the editor will pop up with the names in blue. theyll get paged to the thread when you get it right. 
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

Jim a mod deleted your duplicate thread and moved my post here.  Lets keep it all in one spot from here out.  Lemme know if you run into any issues.
Praise The Lord

Jim1934

Thanks Mike,
Have had the two halves of hyd. unit apart and back together twice. Did so to replace oil seals
and check overall condition.
Both times input shaft very hard to turn even with fastening bolts backed off 3/16 inches.
Guess I have assembled it incorrectly. Locating pins for the 3/16 round plates with all the slots
mate as they should. Roller bearing on input shaft free, as are needle bearings. Tried removing
gear pump cover and that didn't help.
Before I took it apart input shaft turned easily as one would expect. Tired of working on it,
will let it sit for a while. Will use input shaft stub if I get that far.


DennisK

You might need to make 2 precision ground shafts to align the pump together, usually go through opposing bolt holes.

Jim1934

Put it together, ran gear pump input at 1000 rpm CCW facing pump shaft
Output pinion of motor does not turn.
Have oil at filter.
Disconnected the jumper from aux. in/out and no sign of oil. Replaced.
Tightened nuts on drain tube , gear pump, and those holding hydro halves together.
7qts oil. Type U hydro.
Cub Cadet 1650.
Guessing speed too slow or air lock.
Help please.

mike_belben

Praise The Lord

Jim1934


DennisK

Those 2 buttons look like they are depressed in the tow position. They might not get unstuck.

Jim1934

Mine does not have the buttons. just tiny holes. Thanks

mike_belben

Good eye. 

Thats my pump and its just for parts, i busted the output and bull gear.   Those tow valves will bypass fluid if theyre in the open position.  Next to them i have a square plug and a hex plug, there is a spring and ball in one of them to regulate charge pump PSI but i dont recall which.  I think the other port is for gauge tee to troubleshoot but its been a long time and my brain is foggy on all that. 


CCW looking at the shaft face is the correct rotation.  1000 rpm would be sufficient to creep the tractor along.  


Do you have hose fittings on the top front like mine?  I am assuming you still have the hystat in the rear axle housing for a fluid sump?  


You stroked the lever in the left to tilt the swash plate right?

Im not sure how different the exterior of a deere vs cub unit are.  
Praise The Lord

Jim1934

 I have the complete banjo and axle assy.
I stroked the swash plate actuator.
I have the two hose fittings tied together with a hose. Is this a mistake?
  If lift cyl. and its valve were installed path would be blocked when cyl. at end of travel -correct?

One of the check valves has its ball bearing at the bottom
and I can move the ball against its spring via a rod thur the small hole in the bottom.

The other valve has the ball stuck at the top dead headed and cannot be moved.

There is oil on the valves. My valves do not have push buttons on the top.

Thanks, Jim

mike_belben

I dont know what the banjo is.


The hose loop is fine, no you dont need a valve in there.  

My cartridge valves are different than yours so i dont really understand what youve got there.  I own a cub with same pump but its 990 miles away or id go llook for you.  Anything that seems stuck in there nedds to be freed up.

My first guess and hope, is the charge pump guts are too dry to lift fluid from the sump at that low rpm. Like those cheap hand crank barrel pumps.  They never lift oil out of a drum until you wet the pump gets, then theyre fine. 


 So wet your pump guts. Pull that loop hose and fill it with oil then try again.  If it still wont work, pull one end of the hose and get a pan to catch oil.  Run it and see if you are getting any flow.  I believe the passenger side (US based) fitting is the output.  It comes from the charge pump.  If its not flowing oil your charge pump cant supply your drive pump.  

Test that first.
Praise The Lord

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: mike_belben on July 30, 2021, 03:06:01 PM
I dont know what the banjo is.

I always keep up by reading the 'most recent post' and scrolling through comments like this bring me up short every time and take me down the wrong road until I read a little further in.
 Mike, this is what a banjo looks like:


 
 As played by one of the best (Bill Keith).
 But perhaps that doesn't make sense to you because it is fully assembled and functional. So to put it in terms you might be more accustomed to, this is also a banjo:


 
 Sorry, I could not resist. You may now return to your serious technical discussion and I will shut up. :D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Jim1934

When I was a child, 80 years ago, we called the banjo the nearly spherical cast
housing that connects all its internal gears to the inner ends of the two rear axles.
It looks like the round part of a banjo. Today I read case, carrier, rear end, differential.
Thanks for the humor. Jim

mike_belben

Gotcha.  Newer slang for that is diff, chunk and pig. 
Praise The Lord

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