In the past I have logged my own 400 acres and cut and skid firewood for a few neighbours. In about a week I will likely begin logging a 100 acre private lot for another landowner close to me. I tree marked the block and know the wood that will be cut is mostly firewood (beech). We are selling the firewood to a local trucker for $600 (Can) a tandem load on the landing. I am splitting the firewood money 50/50 with the landowner. There is about two tractor trailer loads of sawlogs to come out (small percentage of the cut). I suggested we split the logs 50/50 but the landowner wants to pay me $100 per thousand Bd ft to put the log's on the landing (landowner pays the trucking). I find the $100 a little low. What do you guys think is a fair rate to charge per thousand to put saw log's on the landing? The terrain is good, farthest skid is about 3/4 mile. No crossings required. I need to spend a couple hundred to prep the landing. Most of the log's are white pine with 18 to 24 inch butts common. Also some spruce and balsam which avg around 10 inch butt. I think the white pine will avg around $450 per MFBM at the mill. In am located around Ottawa.
What ya think?
Mountain.
What constitutes a tandem load ? 6 cord ? 200 is the break even point, 100 per mdft is starvation money and that's on hardwood not pine.
Tandem is about 6.5 cords. I can see charging more for hardwood. Maybe $150 / Mfbm for pine?
Are you working alone with a chainsaw and cable skidder? If so what can you produce a day? 5MBF? Maybe? So that's $500 / day gross at best? Hard to keep the wolves away at that rate.
Yes, just me and a chainsaw and my TJ230. I am thinking about 3500 to 4000 Bd ft a day.
Southside, what is the going rate in your area ($US per thousand on the landing)?
I don't know of anyone who has done it that way. It's either on shares or you bought the timber.
10cents a boardfoot is what a toothless tennessee hillbilly handcutter gets to run someone elses saw and just lay em off the stump. Boots and lunch are his only expense. Your landowner is getting greedy on the sawlogs imo.
Your landing expense and his trucking expense on the few loads approximately cancel each other out i reckon.
Tell him 50/50 or he can keep the sawlogs and find another logger to finish the job. He wont get anyone else to move iron in for 2 loads at 10c/ft. He will bend.
Hardwood weighs twice as much and will eat up your fuel so i see no reason why you should touch them for that pay.
Look at it this way. If you want to pay yourself $20 / hour then you need to generate at least $30 / hour to cover taxes, insurance, etc. So to pay yourself $200 / day you need to get 3MBF onto the landing. Now what about fuel, maintenance, moving and owning your skidder? Will $5 - $10 / hour cover that? Would you rent your skidder and saw for $5- $10 / hour? Because that is what you will be doing at his rate.
no way I would do it that cheap 150 minimum. 3/4 of a mile is a fairly long skid in my book. He's already getting the better end of the deal on firewood unless he's helping log it too. Good point southside I usually figure my hourly rate just for reference if I can't make 75 bucks an hour I'm not happy. Some of that's on me to make production too but working cheap only makes it worse. Next time you have a breakdown that costs a grand or too your neighbors not going to pitch in.
Add up the replacement value of ALL the equipment/tools you need/use for the job. Take 1% of that figure and you have your base hourly rate. If for example that number is $50,000.00
Your base rate is $50/hr.
No add up all the consumables required to operate the equipment per hour. Add that straight to the $50/per hour. I'll use $15 as example.
You are now at $65/hr.
Now add in the value of your labour and any insurance/sundry costs that apply.
I'll use $30 for labour and $15 for the additional costs.
You are now at $110/hour.
Calculate your average MBF per hour and divid the $110 hour rate by that number and you will be with in a penny or 2 of what you need to charge.
Man, I know your area well and your not going to make any money at that rate , you need to make X number of dollars per day or week . At $300 to you for a load of wood you need to skid at least 2 loads a day to pretty much break even . $120/1000 is the going rate 10 to 15 years ago up in your area
I live in the Ottawa Valley has well. Around my place, loggers charge around $150 ($canadian)/1000 for cutting and skidding. Might vary a bit according to the quality of the forest and the traveling distance
Band mill Bandit, I like your formula. I will work that out. I am thinking the $150 / Mfbm that Curved Wood mention would be getting close. I am surprised how low a wage some loggers work for around my area. I can't see how they survive. No wonder there are so few left that are interested in the smaller private lots.
My log buyer and I got talking a few weeks ago, I guess they spend some time out to Syracuse at the forestry school figuring out what the starvation rate was on hardwood, I know production softwood is diff but around here if your not making 200 per mdft give or take 10% depending on the job the logger cant survive, yeah you can starve for a while but when enough of your stuff finally breaks your done. Your cutting 6+cord for 300 bucks already puts you at the 100 per mdft range, @ 2xcord per mdft. I make 265 a mdft local, stump to yard AND I keep the firewood and sometimes that doesn't seem like enough when stuff breaks.
Take Bandmill bandit's formula and add a nickel for every 1/4 mile just for wear an tear on your skidder. I'm getting ready to log my maple orchard and a $175.MBF will be deducted from what come out just to pay back what I've spent to rebuild my skidder.
Quote from: Ed_K on November 09, 2019, 07:41:11 AM
Take Bandmill bandit's formula and add a nickel for every 1/4 mile just for wear an tear on your skidder. I'm getting ready to log my maple orchard and a $175.MBF will be deducted from what come out just to pay back what I've spent to rebuild my skidder.
Good point Ed
I FORGOT the milage factor but I think a nickel is may be bit on the low side.
Also I miss stated the calculation factor. It should be .001 to .0015 times the total equipment value figure. sorry for the confusion.
Around here it was roughly 3rds, landowner, cutter, hauler, roadside. High value, landowner may demand a little more than 33%. Low value pulp, landowner may have to take less, just to get the low grade out of the woods. I think this owner is doing good on the firewood, half and doesn't have to get out of bed.
I don't see how you can come out at 10 cents a foot? Lately when I'm working for the mills by the foot (which I don't do often) I'm getting 22.5 cents and get to keep the pulpwood. I do haul the wood and grade it at the yard before I haul it. I figure the haul bill is usual 5 or 6 cents. So I could see you doing it for 16 cents, but if you're giving him 50% of the firewood, you are really doing him a favor. Good luck and stay safe.
I ended up going thirds on the pulp / firewood and $150 per thousand on the logs. Sounds like the going price for log's around here is between $150 and $200 per thousand. See how it goes. Mountain.
Quote from: Mountain_d on November 25, 2019, 06:30:58 AM
I ended up going thirds on the pulp / firewood and $150 per thousand on the logs. Sounds like the going price for log's around here is between $150 and $200 per thousand. See how it goes. Mountain.
Good luck, let us know how it goes!
Yes, $200 per Mfbm sounds like a good plan. I will do that for the next job. I was also asked to do a red pine plantation thinning (third thinning) and need to come up with a rate. That will be by the ton so I need to think about that. Anyone out there with any experience on that one? Mountain.
When we buy a private sale, and the land owner wants firewood, they get to buy it back. The only real value in firewood is the labor and equipment that was used to turn it into a marketable product. With CTL equipment, we have a harvesting rate of around $45/cord. The firewood or hardwood pulp, depending on species, is usually around $10-15/cord for stumpage. So we would never do a 50/50 split, we would be deducting 3-4 cords of stumpage for every cord that they keep. I don't know how many other small operation/ hand cutters their are in your area, I guess that can drive down cutting rates. But your numbers seem low.
So, your $45 per cord harvesting rate would be about the same thing as my $300 per tandem of firewood (6.5 cords per tandem).