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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: customsawyer on November 04, 2015, 07:21:28 PM

Title: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: customsawyer on November 04, 2015, 07:21:28 PM
Had a customer come by this evening wanting me to sharpen and set his blades. Not a problem until I look at them closer. He has been sharpening them with a Dremel  tool and now they will no longer cut. He figured if I sharpened and set them then he could go back to his Dremel tool for awhile. I informed him that I would have to charge him more than a new blade cost to fix his blades. If he wants to sharpen with a Dremel tool he needs to plan on doing it for the life of the blade. I have no stones for my CBN sharpener or cams for my Cooks sharpener that will match what he is doing with a Dremel tool. 
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Dan_Shade on November 04, 2015, 07:29:36 PM
you coulda just used your dremel   :D

Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: drobertson on November 04, 2015, 07:30:26 PM
you bet, see ya would not want to be ya!  some folks just never will figure it out,  you did good on this call,,
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Magicman on November 04, 2015, 07:42:14 PM
That was no customer, that was someone making your meal get cold.   :-\
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kbeitz on November 04, 2015, 07:43:46 PM
I use a dremel to sharpen mine...If they arnt cutting right it's time to put some set back into them...
Other than that the dremel does a fine job. Best part is not having to remove the blade from the saw to do it.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: pineywoods on November 04, 2015, 08:25:24 PM
This is further proof that Jake is a lot smarter than me. Had one show up yesterday, didn't just have blades, he brung the whole DanG mill. 14 year old lt40 that's definitely been rode hard and put away wet. Says "fix it". I'll start another post on "fixin  it" . Gonna be quite a project, stuff missing, things broke, things bent, never been greased, been out in the weather it's entire life, usually buried in sawdust..What was I thinkin..........
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Peter Drouin on November 04, 2015, 10:26:24 PM
That would be hard on a CBN.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: gmmills on November 04, 2015, 10:46:46 PM
  Jake, you spent more time with the customer than I would of. People don't seem to realize that a blade is a precision tool. In order for it to perform at it's top potential the original tooth profile must be maintained. Using a dremel tool to  sharpen a blade is just wrong in too many ways to elaborate on this late in the evening. There is no way to even come close to matching the blades original profile.  I have well over $10,000 invested in blade maintenance equipment that enables me to match profiles to exacting tolerances. This is a must if you would like to keep your lumber quality and mill productivity at a high level.

   For any of you new members, mill owners, that are thinking of sharpening your blades using a dremel tool, do your self and your blood pressure a big favor. Just don't do it.  There are no exceptions for a properly maintained blade.

Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: hackberry jake on November 04, 2015, 10:47:26 PM
Quote from: pineywoods on November 04, 2015, 08:25:24 PM
What was I thinkin..........

Hourly is what I would've been thinking...
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Dan_Shade on November 04, 2015, 11:31:02 PM
Just remember:  There is no satisfaction like finishing a job that you realize that you should have never started!

Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Cedarman on November 05, 2015, 06:52:17 AM
Quote from: Dan_Shade on November 04, 2015, 11:31:02 PM
Just remember:  There is no satisfaction like finishing a job that you realize that you should have never started!
That saying is for the memory bank!!!!
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Magicman on November 05, 2015, 07:59:01 AM
The reason the WM does not resharpen blades other than their own is because of the profile.  CBN "wheels" can not be used to change or to correct a profile.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kbeitz on November 05, 2015, 08:03:09 AM
Quote from: gmmills on November 04, 2015, 10:46:46 PM
  Jake, you spent more time with the customer than I would of. People don't seem to realize that a blade is a precision tool. In order for it to perform at it's top potential the original tooth profile must be maintained. Using a dremel tool to  sharpen a blade is just wrong in too many ways to elaborate on this late in the evening. There is no way to even come close to matching the blades original profile.  I have well over $10,000 invested in blade maintenance equipment that enables me to match profiles to exacting tolerances. This is a must if you would like to keep your lumber quality and mill productivity at a high level.

   For any of you new members, mill owners, that are thinking of sharpening your blades using a dremel tool, do your self and your blood pressure a big favor. Just don't do it.  There are no exceptions for a properly maintained blade.

Normally I would agree with you...  Some people can mess up a chainsaw with a file.
Or they can really mess up a drill bit with a grinder. But a few of us can sharpen a drill bits better
than or as good as a machine. I live on  a Christmas tree farm and we needed a way to sharpen
chainsaws fast. No time to remove the chain and put in the machine. So I got good at using a
grinder and a dremel for sharping things. I do all my sharpening by hand... Everything.
I have the right tools to do the job but I've done so much sharpening that I do the job
good enough with out machines to at least keep me happy.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on November 05, 2015, 08:17:12 AM
Was this customer someone that had just recently got a new mill?  ::) :D
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: pineywoods on November 05, 2015, 08:24:15 AM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 05, 2015, 08:17:12 AM
Was this customer someone that had just recently got a new mill?  ::) :D

Yep, brand new lt35 hydraulic..
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Cutting Edge on November 05, 2015, 08:49:35 AM
Just a few days ago, I had a customer who inquired about using a Dremel for "Touching Up" his blades between sharpenings.  I quickly explained to him that if he did so, the blade would be pretty much non-serviceable from that point on.  After some detailed explanation as to why I would reject those blades, he quickly discarded the idea.  This is a case of, "Trying to save a Dime, will end up costing a Dollar".  Which in this scenario, it is several Dollars when you calculate the initial blade costs and potential lumber that could've been sawn over the life of the blade.

As customsawyer stated, an attempt to resharpen or repair those blades to acceptable condition could exceed the value of a new blade.

Come to find out, he had gotten this idea from a recent thread here on the FF.

Quote from: gmmills on November 04, 2015, 10:46:46 PM
 
   For any of you new members, mill owners, that are thinking of sharpening your blades using a dremel tool, do your self and your blood pressure a big favor. JUST DON"T DO IT !!!  There are no exceptions for a properly maintained blade.



X 2 To what gmmills stated.

The reason a blade is all but "junk" is because of a couple reasons...

1)  The tooth spacing is altered because sharpening with a Dremel (or similar tooling) RUINS the tooth spacing.  Once this happens, it will never be re-established before the blade has reached the end of it's life... I've tried.

2)  The radius at the base of the tooth will be changed

Quality sharpening equipment indexes each tooth from this small radius located at the base of the tooth.  If this area is altered, even by a few thousandths of an inch, the remaining profile cannot properly sharpened... if at all.  Do this to every tooth and it you can quickly imagine the headache.

Below is a picture of a blade (one of several) that a customer brought awhile back.  These blades had been done on a modified chainsaw sharpener operated by a retired machinist... Yes, a machinist !! 

These blade were new and had only been re-sharpened ONCE by this individual.  The customer literally COULD NOT cut the slab off the log, let alone saw a straight board.  From what he said," The lumber wasn't fit for a hog pen !! "  He said a couple blades actually broke because they cracked in the area where this "machinist" had gouged out such a deep recess at the base of the tooth.

The bad part for him was when I refused to even attempt to repair the damage to his blades... they were junk.  So he was out the cost of a NEW blade and the cost of the "sharpening".  Plus, he was going to have to purchase blades... again.  To add insult to injury...  NOT one single board could be sawn to meet his expectations.

The blade below started it's life as a WM 10 deg.  The "machinist" had changed it to an average of 19 degrees.  As you can see, this blade and many more were destined for the scrap pile.  Nuff said.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27902/Ruined_Blade.JPG)

Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Magicman on November 05, 2015, 09:23:54 AM
I would never condemn a person or method of resharpening, even though it may not be acceptable to me.

If a person chooses to sharpen their blade(s) by hand, then they must accept the fact that that (Tom) is the only way that the blade can ever be resharpened in the future.  With that acceptance in mind, we make blade sharpening choices based on our available resources, skills, and limitations.

In like manner, that self sharpening guy may need a reality check such as customsawyer had to give in the OP.  He may not have understood the seriousness of the precision necessary for proper machine resharpening.  Now he does.   ;)
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: deadfall on November 05, 2015, 09:49:32 AM
I've been truly impressed at the home builds of machine sharpeners I have seen here at the FF.  I know the purchase of a machine is somewhere in my future, assuming I have one (a future, that is).  Having had a machine in the past, I really enjoy that process.  I have been filing and grinding various saws for 45 years now.  I should just go ahead and build a small shack for a machine, because, as what's been said above, the machines make certain demands of regularity, and so, these bands are best suited to machine sharpening, at least as concerns blade life.  I hate to waste anything.  I will touch up my buzz saw teeth with a hand grinder between machine sharpenings, but not any bands. 
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kingmt on November 05, 2015, 10:30:47 AM
This thread seems a bit harsh. I don't know anything about sharping a blade since I've never tried it. I have looked into the matter some tho with the intent of giving it a try.

I've seen several say there blades are better then new, it takes 10 minutes, & they get four sharpings.
I don't know what you guys charge to sharpen but if guess at least $5. For me there would be shipping also. So for me if I could get one sharpening that brings me down to a $15 blade, twice $10, three $5, & the fourth one of I get it would make it free.

Some people have skill at free handing. I never could use one of the drill sharpeners I've tried but I can free hand a drill to cut what ever I want.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Joe Hillmann on November 05, 2015, 11:25:04 AM
Quote from: Kingmt on November 05, 2015, 10:30:47 AM
This thread seems a bit harsh. I don't know anything about sharping a blade since I've never tried it. I have looked into the matter some tho with the intent of giving it a try.

I've seen several say there blades are better then new, it takes 10 minutes, & they get four sharpings.
I don't know what you guys charge to sharpen but if guess at least $5. For me there would be shipping also. So for me if I could get one sharpening that brings me down to a $15 blade, twice $10, three $5, & the fourth one of I get it would make it free.

Some people have skill at free handing. I never could use one of the drill sharpeners I've tried but I can free hand a drill to cut what ever I want.

I kind of agree with kingmt on this. 

Although I don't think I would believe who says a blade sharpened with a dremal cuts better than new.  I may cut much better than it did when dull but I doubt better than new.

Recently I had a local guy sharpen my blades (with the proper equiptment) and when I got them back they cut very well for the first board then after that they felt dull.  I took a closer look and on every blade about half the teeth were blue at the tip.  So that shows that more than just the right equipment is required to get sharp blades.

Since then I have been sharpening my own blades.  I tried a dremal, and angle grinder, and a chain saw sharpener.  They all would sharpen the blade but change the cutting angle.

What I do now is I use a sharpening wheel in my lathe and clamp a large 10 degree guide to the lathe to keep my angle right and have the wheel profiled to the gullet of the blade.  With this set up I get a pretty decently sharpened blade.  I by no means would say it is better than new or better than it it was sharpened on proper equipment by someone who had it adjusted properly but probably close.

By sharpening my own I know from now on I have to do it myself.  They can no longer be sharpened on a band sharpener.

I think my blades are about $18.  If I remember correctly sharpening + shipping was right around $6 or $7 per blade.  So if I sharpen my own blades (and get the same life out of them as if I sent them out) 3 times I could throw the blades away and it would be cheaper than having them sharpened.  This is assuming my time is worth nothing.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Ox on November 05, 2015, 11:26:37 AM
Kingmt - for some comparison info, it would cost me $10.60 per blade to have shipped off, set, sharpened, and shipped back.  I save that every time I set and sharpen my own blades.  For others I charge $6 to sharpen and $2 to set.  That saves them money, makes my machine a little money and the turn around time is usually just one day vs. several days to a week or maybe more.  If they catch me early in the day I'll get the blades done the same day.  It's a win-win for everyone involved.  Some people don't have the time or desire to want to do their own blades so it's better for them to send them off.  Others don't saw enough to warrant their own sharpener.  I don't saw enough for my own sharpener really but I wanted to have something that will eventually pay itself off and it's something I can do without being in too much pain.   I'm in lots of pain when I'm milling.  It's quite hard to get the ambition to do things when you know you're self-imposing some torture upon yourself.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: deadfall on November 05, 2015, 11:44:50 AM
I think there is nothing so harsh being said here and little reason for such an interpretation.  We are just saying what we think and are, or might be, doing with these blades.  I am not in this for the money, as I only wanted to have a sawmill once again.  When I had one before, I did the sharpening with the machine and manual setter that cost around $1500 back in the '80s.  So I'm in it for the love of doing it.  And that's doing it right based on my experience and preferences.  Your mileage may vary. 

I have a load of new blades and this will give me lots of time to shop my sharpening setup.   I have been lucky to have life and time.  Not worried too much about any bottom line.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Ox on November 05, 2015, 12:12:43 PM
Quote from: deadfall on November 05, 2015, 11:44:50 AM
   I have been lucky to have life and time.  Not worried too much about any bottom line.

This is a good place to be.  It's unfortunate not everybody can be in a fine place such as this in life.  Lots of people deserve it but don't have it.  Ahhhh, well.  Life is a deck of cards.  Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not.  Roll with the punches, dust yourself off if you can and keep limping along is all one can do.  I guess I'm just talking to myself mostly here.  Going through a tougher time right now.  Health and all. ::)
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: deadfall on November 05, 2015, 12:29:43 PM
Quote from: Ox on November 05, 2015, 12:12:43 PM

Going through a tougher time right now.  Health and all. ::)

Yeah, same here.  That's why I referred to not having surety of a future.  That flu or whatever that knocked me down at the end of August has left me at just over 120 pounds to this day.  I should be up in the one fifties.  So, I discuss any plans with no attachment to seeing them through.  We are always starting from where we are right now.  So that's what I'm doing at present.  Trying to get my strength back, but unable to be sure of it.  I choose not to suffer it.  What would be the point?  Still happy for no reason.

It would be a bad thing to do to my neighbors should I croak.  They will have to sort out all my stuff.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: ely on November 05, 2015, 12:37:28 PM
my thoughts are if it works for you then that is great...I did bring a whole rafter of blades back from the dead once, by dead I mean they resembled the pics above...the guy had sharpened with a dremel and was good enough at it he never done anything else for his bands. we got the pile of old bands when dad bought that mill. some would take 6 rounds on the catclaw before they even got some sort of uniformity back. was it cost effective? no maybe not, but I was new to sharpening and I learned a lot on the old bands and dad sawed a great deal of wood with them.
  I have said it hundreds of time...there is a lot more to sharpening a band than there is to cutting lumber.
I have been sawing lumber for the past three weeks solid and I have taken to using one band until I use it up....only for the reason that when it dulls I can throw it on the sharpener for one quick round and go again, less than 10 minutes down time... seems if I put 2 or more bands in the cycle at once one of them will inevitably be at a different stage of life and it causes me to adjust the machine a lot both the sawmill and the sharpener.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kbeitz on November 05, 2015, 06:55:31 PM
I do agree if you sharpen a blade with a dremel that it would be hard on the grinding wheel to get the teeth all uniform again, But I don't think that the teeth need to be uniform to cut good. The dermel works great for me so I'll keep at it and I have no complaints on the cut I'm getting. In fact I'm very happy with the cuts I'm getting.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kingmt on November 05, 2015, 07:05:25 PM
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on November 05, 2015, 11:25:04 AM

I kind of agree with kingmt on this. 

Although I don't think I would believe who says a blade sharpened with a dremal cuts better than new.  I may cut much better than it did when dull but I doubt better than new.
Actually they weren't using a Dremal. One was a 6" grinder an other I think was a belt sander.

I like doing things for myself so that is worth a lot to me.

I'd love to see a video of the lathe job or at least a picture of the jig.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Delawhere Jack on November 05, 2015, 07:33:52 PM
Just build one of these....



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29506/IMG_0924.JPG)

;D

Short of that, you MIGHT get acceptable results with a jig to hold the Dremel that registers off the base of a tooth several teeth ahead, and the gullet several teeth behind. Even with a jig though, you're not grinding the gullet, so you may only get 3-4 sharpenings instead of 6-10 on each band.

Even if you've got hands as steady as a brain surgeon, you're just not going to hold a Dremel steady enough for consistent results.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kingmt on November 05, 2015, 07:44:45 PM
That looks really sweet. Do you have more pictures of it?
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kbeitz on November 05, 2015, 09:51:49 PM
Some of my lumber cut with the dremel sharpened blades...




 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/23_feet_long~0.JPG)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/6_years_down_2~1.JPG)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/drying_shed_roof_rafters~0.JPG)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/My_blade~0.JPG)
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: hackberry jake on November 05, 2015, 10:40:01 PM
I don't see any reason sharpening like this wouldn't work for one or two sharpenings.
https://youtu.be/-vcDSPNxPW8
It wouldn't affect the gullet shape, and every 2 or 3 sharpenings send it off and have it professionally done. Or just sharpen it 3 times and throw it away. I am glad my sharpener is automatic though. Looks hard on the back and wrists.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kbeitz on November 06, 2015, 02:35:08 AM
I dont do the top.
My dremel stone is 5/16" and fits right in the gullet.
Lost count how many time I've sharpened one blade.
I'll run them untill the blade brakes and thats a long time.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: customsawyer on November 06, 2015, 04:05:00 AM
Quote from: hackberry jake on November 05, 2015, 10:40:01 PM
I don't see any reason sharpening like this wouldn't work for one or two sharpenings.
https://youtu.be/-vcDSPNxPW8
It wouldn't affect the gullet shape, and every 2 or 3 sharpenings send it off and have it professionally done. Or just sharpen it 3 times and throw it away. I am glad my sharpener is automatic though. Looks hard on the back and wrists.

Taking hand sharpened blades and then trying to fix them on a machine would be pretty hard on the rock or CBN wheel.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Cutting Edge on November 06, 2015, 05:18:21 AM
Quote from: Magicman on November 05, 2015, 07:59:01 AM

CBN "wheels" can not be used to change or to correct a profile.



Actually, there are such CBN wheels available specifically designed and manufactured for this task.  BUT, they won't efficiently correct variances in tooth spacing ... no sharpening equipment that I'm aware will.

Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: bkaimwood on November 06, 2015, 05:49:47 AM
I agree with alot of thoughts, theory, and statements made in this thread by nearly every member...as we go through this thread, don't forget to put things into context...very few situations or methods are acceptable or produce as high quality results as sharpening a blade with the right manufacturer designed equipment. We are a different breed, with skills your average Joe can hardly dream of having. Many members have made home made setups that are precise and consistent... Once again, not average Joe's...I go by the 9 out of 10 rule in most things in life, most people are the 9 out of 10...again, we are not average Joe's, we are a different breed... All the hacked up blades were sharpened using sub standard methods by average Joe's without the special skill set most of us have. Hack jobs and those who do them are all around us in every industry, and unfortunately common, hence the 9 out of 10 rule. I see it every day. I'm also with Kbeitz... Clearly a 1 in 10...some just have the eye and the hand, as most our breed does, in one way or another do...his success and longevity proving it is a testament... I too, can sharpen a high speed steel drill bit on a grinder, and in 10 seconds, have it ready to throw noodles through another 2 feet of plate steel...precision sharpener needed? I don't think so...as for sharpening my own band blades...probably soon, just haven't decided which route I will go...
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: sandsawmill14 on November 06, 2015, 06:00:41 AM
some say its impossible while some do it everyday :)
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: bkaimwood on November 06, 2015, 06:06:59 AM
Thanks for summing it up, sandsawmill14
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Magicman on November 06, 2015, 08:00:32 AM
Remember that the OP was not about whether one could hand sharpen blades.  It was whether those hand sharpened blades would meet the profile and be sharpened on Jake's resharpening equipment.  They could not.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Delawhere Jack on November 06, 2015, 07:24:12 PM
Quote from: Kingmt on November 05, 2015, 07:44:45 PM
That looks really sweet. Do you have more pictures of it?

Yeah, there are a couple more pics in my gallery. Basically copied the  Cat Claw design. Mostly cabinet grade birch plywood I salvaged from a shipping crate. Spent a good deal of time researching and building it, but I had more time than money at that point. It works great.

Edit: Still have not motorized the band feed, so I get to turn the crank 180x's per band..... Guess I've still got more time than money... ::) Not too bad though, less than 3 minutes per band.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Peter Drouin on November 06, 2015, 07:30:20 PM
Quote from: Delawhere Jack on November 05, 2015, 07:33:52 PM
Just build one of these....



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29506/IMG_0924.JPG)

;D

Short of that, you MIGHT get acceptable results with a jig to hold the Dremel that registers off the base of a tooth several teeth ahead, and the gullet several teeth behind. Even with a jig though, you're not grinding the gullet, so you may only get 3-4 sharpenings instead of 6-10 on each band.

Even if you've got hands as steady as a brain surgeon, you're just not going to hold a Dremel steady enough for consistent results.


Nice,  smiley_thumbsup smiley_beertoast
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: gmmills on November 07, 2015, 09:04:10 AM
  The issue in the OP was not if Customsawyer's blade maintenance equipment was capable of re-profiling the blades. More as, it was not cost- effective labor wise to do so versus the cost of a new blade. By them time the blade was re-profiled, the over all width would be too narrow and this also equates to the loss of tooth heat treatment. These factors would negate the re-profiling of these hand sharpened blades.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Banjo picker on November 07, 2015, 02:24:56 PM
Seems to me it boils down to this:  If you can sharpen your bands with a hand held tool, that's good.  If it is as good as new or better, that's great, but if it turns out that you find out that you have bands that are now messed up, either fix them on your own or throw them away, because not many people are going to take on fixing your mistakes.  That's just my take on it your results may differ.  ;)  Banjo
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Nomad on November 07, 2015, 07:07:18 PM
Quote from: Banjo picker on November 07, 2015, 02:24:56 PM
Seems to me it boils down to this:  If you can sharpen your bands with a hand held tool, that's good.  If it is as good as new or better, that's great, but if it turns out that you find out that you have bands that are now messed up, either fix them on your own or throw them away, because not many people are going to take on fixing your mistakes.  That's just my take on it your results may differ.  ;)  Banjo

X2
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Cazzhrdwd on November 07, 2015, 07:42:51 PM
I have to sharpen hundreds of blades per year, I don't sharpen them myself, I send them to Woodmizer in NY. What I don't understand is why so many of you would waste time sharpening when it only cost about 9.00 a blade to have them sharpened. I don't know how long it takes to sharpen one but if it takes 30 minutes are you guys making 18 dollars an hour? I just can't see how it would possibly be worth it. Add to that sharpening them without the proper equipment? I really don't get it.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: deadfall on November 07, 2015, 08:12:49 PM
While I will never come out on it, I still intend to buy someone's sharpening and setting system eventually, whether new or used.   I just plain like doing blades.  I like boards that are smooth, right off the mill.

I just bought another stripped down travel trailer frame from Craigslist.  The plan is to make a mobile tool shed that can travel with the mill, even if I never go mobile again.  I have no covered space for a sharpener setup, so there's the plan.  I bought a brand new Folley Bellsaw SharpAll for a killer price last year (again Craigslist), and I can put that in there as well and grind my buzz saw blades too. It's not yet been out of the box.  I just love to sharpen all kinds of things. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32712/IMG_1765.JPG)
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on November 07, 2015, 08:45:31 PM
Quote from: Cazzhrdwd on November 07, 2015, 07:42:51 PM
I have to sharpen hundreds of blades per year, I don't sharpen them myself, I send them to Woodmizer in NY. What I don't understand is why so many of you would waste time sharpening when it only cost about 9.00 a blade to have them sharpened. I don't know how long it takes to sharpen one but if it takes 30 minutes are you guys making 18 dollars an hour? I just can't see how it would possibly be worth it. Add to that sharpening them without the proper equipment? I really don't get it.

I have to agree with this.
I know its fun trying new ways to do things such as sharpening blades.
And for you guys that sharpen your own blades, I'm sure you have a very good reason and I respect your choice.
When it comes to me, my faith is in the resharp program with Woodmizer.
I don't worry about hook, set, angles, cracks, shipping or any of that stuff. My time is to valuable to worry about blades.
I can depend on WM to have me sharp blades all the time...and thanks to their resharp program, I make more money and have more family time.  :)
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kingmt on November 07, 2015, 08:52:24 PM
Quote from: Cazzhrdwd on November 07, 2015, 07:42:51 PM
I have to sharpen hundreds of blades per year, I don't sharpen them myself, I send them to Woodmizer in NY. What I don't understand is why so many of you would waste time sharpening when it only cost about 9.00 a blade to have them sharpened. I don't know how long it takes to sharpen one but if it takes 30 minutes are you guys making 18 dollars an hour? I just can't see how it would possibly be worth it. Add to that sharpening them without the proper equipment? I really don't get it.
I make about $20 an hour & have to drive an hour & a half to get there. I hear it takes about 10 minutes a blade so yeah it would be worth my time. Besides that I like to stay as independent as I can. Also have you ever heard a penny saved is a dollar earned? Saving money is easier then having to go out & get another one. However if you can make it faster then you can spend it then by all means.

I've seen sawers that say they won't mess with having blades resharpened. That the wood they cut is to expensive to take the chance with them & it isn't cost effective for them to take the time to mess with them.

So to each there own. Everyone has to decide what is best for them.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Cazzhrdwd on November 07, 2015, 08:59:21 PM
Quote from: Kingmt on November 07, 2015, 08:52:24 PM
Quote from: Cazzhrdwd on November 07, 2015, 07:42:51 PM
I have to sharpen hundreds of blades per year, I don't sharpen them myself, I send them to Woodmizer in NY. What I don't understand is why so many of you would waste time sharpening when it only cost about 9.00 a blade to have them sharpened. I don't know how long it takes to sharpen one but if it takes 30 minutes are you guys making 18 dollars an hour? I just can't see how it would possibly be worth it. Add to that sharpening them without the proper equipment? I really don't get it.
I make about $20 an hour & have to drive an hour & a half to get there. I hear it takes about 10 minutes a blade so yeah it would be worth my time. Besides that I like to stay as independent as I can. Also have you ever heard a penny saved is a dollar earned? Saving money is easier then having to go out & get another one. However if you can make it faster then you can spend it then by all means.

I've seen sawers that say they won't mess with having blades resharpened. That the wood they cut is to expensive to take the chance with them & it isn't cost effective for them to take the time to mess with them.

So to each there own. Everyone has to decide what is best for them.

I understand what you're sayin but a piece of equipment that cost 30-40 thousand demands a certain wage. 20.00 per hour does not pay for a sawmill business. I quit doing custom saws because the work wasn't consistent. I found out what was needed in the wholesale lumber market and went there.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Chuck White on November 07, 2015, 09:44:32 PM
But when you're retired X2, and old, and your mill doesn't owe you anything, it's a good thing to be able to do your own blades!  ;)

Takes me about 10-15 minutes to set a blade, then about 4-5 minutes to run it around the sharpener!

Now, don't get me wrong, a resharp service is a wonderful service to have available, and if you're really busy sawing, it makes sence to use it!

Where abouts are you located, Cazzhrdwd?

With your username, sounds like somewhere near Cazenovia!
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kingmt on November 07, 2015, 09:51:33 PM
Cazzhrdwd
I don't have any of the sharpening equipment. If I try it then it would be by other means then the fancy sharpeners that I've seen. I also don't do this as a business. I just saw for myself to save money on lumber.

Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on November 07, 2015, 09:52:07 PM
Good point Chuck.  :)
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Magicman on November 07, 2015, 09:54:04 PM
It is a personal choice what to do with your time.  For me, it is not about the money spent or saved, but rather what I choose to do with my time when I am not sawing.  It DanG sure ain't sharpening.   ;D
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Cazzhrdwd on November 07, 2015, 11:15:31 PM
Quote from: Chuck White on November 07, 2015, 09:44:32 PM


Where abouts are you located, Cazzhrdwd?



The miserable BLUE state of Maryland.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Cazzhrdwd on November 07, 2015, 11:16:39 PM
Quote from: Chuck White on November 07, 2015, 09:44:32 PM


Now, don't get me wrong, a resharp service is a wonderful service to have available, and if you're really busy sawing, it makes sence to use it!



Agreed.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Cazzhrdwd on November 07, 2015, 11:19:18 PM
Quote from: Kingmt on November 07, 2015, 09:51:33 PM
Cazzhrdwd
I don't have any of the sharpening equipment. If I try it then it would be by other means then the fancy sharpeners that I've seen. I also don't do this as a business. I just saw for myself to save money on lumber.

You'll be surprised at how quickly it grows, we truly have the best job a man can have, besides being a race car driver. :) seems that would be just a bit more fun.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kbeitz on November 08, 2015, 12:09:51 AM
Time is exactly  why I sharpen my own blades. I don't have time to take my blades off and put another on.
I don't have time to box them up. I don't have time to run them to the post office.
I just grab my dermel and sit on the saw for a few min. and I'm done. Very fast and cheap.

Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: JustinW_NZ on November 08, 2015, 04:47:34 AM
Just had the same thing funnily enough, local guy rang me up and was asking how many resharps I get before breaking.
15 or so and I never break them, they end up to thin and we toss them was my reply.. (1 1/2 bands)

Turns out they get 5 max and the bands have multiple cracks by them...
He bought one around and the drag style grinder wasn't cleaning out the gullet, so I would think it would be effecting saw performance and B was just crack material waiting to happen..
This is more operator fault or setup that the style of grinder/grinding....

8 passes around the CBM grinder it looked like a WM 10deg band again...
Was easy to figure out it wasn't economic to reset his ones from my side as the CBN wheel wear wouldn't have been good along side the time to let them run...

Do I think his resharpens were cheap - yes, do I think they are cost effective - NO!!
In NZ we don't have a resharp service or anything close to it, so its a must to do it yourself or have someone near by.

Cheers
Justin
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Peter Drouin on November 08, 2015, 07:46:15 AM
I can sharpen a box of 10 in an hr. That's making over $100.00 an hr. and I can push the set where I want it. :) 
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Banjo picker on November 08, 2015, 08:06:08 AM
And when Peter sharpens that box of 10 five times each he has saved himself $500.00.  Do that for 3 boxes of blades and he could pay for a pretty decent machine.  I am not hardly as quick as he is, but the math is the same.   ;)  Banjo
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Peter Drouin on November 08, 2015, 08:15:48 AM
Quote from: Banjo picker on November 08, 2015, 08:06:08 AM
And when Peter sharpens that box of 10 five times each he has saved himself $500.00.  Do that for 3 boxes of blades and he could pay for a pretty decent machine.  I am not hardly as quick as he is, but the math is the same.   ;)  Banjo


The WM setter and sharpener payed for itself in less than a year. $4,500.00
And I,m only on my 2# CBN wheel.
I'm happy with the set up.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: deadfall on November 08, 2015, 10:19:45 AM
The numbers are sinking in here. (durn, didn't mean to start a new page -- will link back to it -- attn. post #57)

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,86587.40.html#msg1327106
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on November 08, 2015, 11:11:33 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 08, 2015, 08:15:48 AM




The WM setter and sharpener payed for itself in less than a year. $4,500.00
And I,m only on my 2# CBN wheel.
I'm happy with the set up.

I'd starve.  :D
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Kingmt on November 10, 2015, 04:27:32 PM
Well I was trying to milk a blade to finish up the last log for a customer but got down to the last 2 boards & it just wouldn't cut anymore. I switched to a new blade & on the last board I hit my post. It ripped the typos off all the teeth. I finished up the job with a second new blade.

I decided that was a good blade to take a shot at sharpening. I'm a believer now & agree that the resharpened blade cuts better then the new one after using them soccer by side. I realize it loses set & will get to the point it won't cut but so far I'm going to try it for a while.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: petefrom bearswamp on November 11, 2015, 02:13:11 PM
My drag sharpener is 1995 vintage and I used to save all my blades for winter and then sharpen/set, or in my case set/sharpen.
Now i am a snowbird and have gone very happily with resharp.
I despise the whole sharpening process.
Title: Re: New customer, fired customer.
Post by: Peter Drouin on November 11, 2015, 06:13:56 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 08, 2015, 11:11:33 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on November 08, 2015, 08:15:48 AM




The WM setter and sharpener payed for itself in less than a year. $4,500.00
And I,m only on my 2# CBN wheel.
I'm happy with the set up.

I'd starve.  :D


Not everyone can sharpen a blade. :D