Need to Identify Old Mill

[spanky]

Found an Old Mill about 200 miles away. Talked to the owner who claims it was last run about 1994. The best I can do is tell you it is a circular mill possible from the 40's. Metal looks good, all wood will need replaced. My question is how can I best start at identification of the mill. It has an older Ford engine power source next to it that doesn't work. Where do I start? Is there an internet source I can go to get information to prepare myself to ask the right questions? I will try to get some pictures.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

And Welcome to The Forum Spanky  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) iMts good to see another bloke wanting to get an old Circ going again We are the source of info on these old girls just get some pics up and we will get it sorted Mate  ;) ;D If its 40s theres a good chance it will be Meadows,Frick,Corley, American,Cornith or a Lane Mill but there where alot of other small companys building them too mate ;)

Regards Chris

[fishpharmer]

Hi Spanky, welcome to FF!  Like Chris said, FF IS THE Source of info on sawmills.  At the top
of this page is a "search" button.  That should help you find a lot of info.  We love questions too.

Oh yea, how are the rest of little rascals?   :D

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[bandmiller2]

Spanky,did you ask the owner? If you can figure it out post some good pictures here. Many times the old mill are are put togather with the parts from several mills.Usally local sawyers know all about mills in their neighborhood,ask them after you buy it,they may want to buy it themselves for parts. Frank C.

[Magicman]

Oh yea, how are the rest of little rascals?   :D     Sorry, couldn't resist.    

I'll bet they are doing fine.  I copied this from Spanky's profile:   "Family: Married 43 yrs, 9 Kids, 33 Grandkids".

[spanky]

Help!!! I have finally created an album with photos in it but have no idea how to get the album into the post.  Can find an explanation on how to do it.

[Ianab]

Yup, you have done the hard part and the pics are in the gallery.

If they wont attach automatically (not all machines are set to work exactly the same), look at the picture in your gallery, and find the box below it that says
"For non-compliant browsers, copy and paste the code below into your post window where you want your image to appear:"

Highlight that code and press Crtl and C. Then go to your post and hit Ctrl and V

Code Select Expand

[IMG] https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18930/tn_Saw_1.jpg [/IMG]

will show as this.



Ian

[spanky]

Thanks, Ian...you're a life saver.  I'm guessin' you've done this a few times...major frustration for me.  Thanks again.  I hope there is enough information in the pics for everyone to make a decent assessment of what the mill  is and whether it is worth the $2500 the owner is asking. I believe there are more pics I can get if these aren't adequate.  Please let me know and I await the forums best guesses.  Thanks again for the help...
td

[Ron Wenrich]

I once run an Ireland that had dog handles like that one.  It looks to be a light mill, and there doesn't look to be any taper sets to it.  The Ireland had the tapers in the headblocks.  There were handles that came up at the setworks, and you would pull on them.  That activated a brake, so advanced the setworks only a few of the headblocks advanced.  Worked like a linear positioner. 

Some mills had a stamp on one of the headblocks.  Others I've seen had a plate on the husk.  It most likely is a mill that comes from the West Coast. 

From the pictures, the mill looks to be in decent shape, other than the wood.  You'll have to replace the belts.  What kind of wood are you planning to saw and what kind of size? 

[Dave_]

American #1's were popular out here back in the day.  I think they were sold out of Portland, so they were pretty common.  Many ran flat-head Ford engines.  In years past, it seems that every canyon had an old circle mill laying in ruin.  When scrap prices began to climb, the old mills went away.  There are a few old girls out there still, but you have to hunt pretty hard for them.  

I'd be interested in some pictures of what looks like a sawdust blower.  It looks like an interesting setup.  That long drive shaft is pretty cool.

Also, some closeup pics of the setworks might help.  

Since it is mostly all steel (with the exception of the husk), I don't think you'd get hurt at $2500, but I'd come in way lower and let some time soften up the deal.  Great find.

[spanky]

Hello, All...
Thanks to everyone for the help so far.  I'm heading on over to my first inspection of this mill this Saturday. It's an all-day trip for me. So far, Ron and Dave have given their ideas on the make of the mill. In this short of time period I will be unable to get the close-ups of the setworks as you asked but will get some as soon as I can. However, any other input, especially before I leave for the trip, would be great.  Thanks much for the info...looking forward to more info...
td

[bandmiller2]

Spanky,$2500.00 Is too much, thats the price years ago before band and swingmills,when circular mills were the only game in town. That money can buy you quite a circular  mill if you shop around.That power unit looks like an industrial ford,Dagenham diesel made in england,their next of kin to the engine used in fordson major diesel tractors.Look but don't rush to buy. Frank C.

[spanky]

Well, got a call Saturday morning.  The fellow had a death in the family. Looks like it'll be middle of next week before I make it up to his place.  Meanwhile, let me take a moment and respond to some of the comments on the posts. Obviously no shortage of information here.

Ron: I will be cutting mostly Walnut but I do have a bit of Maple, Sycamore, Cedar, and Fruitwood. Average size..about 40" dia. with some dia. exceeding 60".

Dave: Good advice...I always come in lower than the owners request.  I'll keep everyone posted on how much I finally get it for...if I get it. Great history on these old timers. In fact, this info will help a great deal when I go to look at the mill.

Frank C: Good info on the power source. There is an engine sitting next to the old mill which has yet to be identified. I will take this info with me when I go to look at the mill.

Ian: Again, my thanks for the help on getting the pics up and running.  As soon as close-ups are available I will post.
Spanky

[Ron Wenrich]

If you're cutting that size of wood, this mill won't be the one you want.  You will find the weight of the log too heavy for the mill.  You will have problems pulling a halfway accurate set.  I have problems with logs that big on an automatic mill with hydraulic setworks.

Other problems will happen when you try to turn logs that big.  You will need a log turner.  Cant hooks are nice, but you'll need 3 guys to turn it. 

My 54" saw will only pull a 21" cut.  You need a top saw.  Usually, that adds another 15" to the cut.  Without it, you'll be doing a lot of chainsaw work by cutting off the slabs.  I get away with it because I have a vertical edger.  It still wastes a lot of wood trying to get to a size to saw.

The headblocks won't open up much more than 40".  That is a lot of wood to pull.

To saw that size of wood, you should consider a different type of mill.  A swing mill might be okay, but you're limited in the size of boards you can take.  If width of wood isn't a concern, then that would be better.  Some of them you can make a double cut on and get the wider board, but I've seen some that have not matched up well, and you get a board that is stepped somewhat. 

A dimension mill has the same problem with board width.  Although, they have automatic feed and seem to be easier on the operator.  The problems with both of these types of mills is turning logs.  That's just my opinion.  Turning logs help to relieve log tension as you saw the wood.  That yields better lumber and better grade yield.  Again, my opinion.

You could rig something up that is stationary that will handle those size of logs and allow dogging and log turning.  But, it would involve hydraulics.  A slabber with a swing mill will give you wide boards and be able to edge on the same rig.  May even be cost effective.  But, handling the lumber from one of these logs is another aspect you're going to have to consider. 

What type of markets are you trying to address?  You seem to have a log resource, but you need to match that log resource to a market outlet.  Then figure out your production method.

[captain_crunch]

Spanky
set works and feed drive look to be American and by size proably a #1

This is Duawnes and I belive it is a #3 American

[spanky]

Ron:
Much thanks for the honest assessment.  You say this is a "light" mill.  What is it about the mill that puts it into this category?  I am not knowledgeable enough to understand. Is it the blade size? The husk size? The carriage, or ???

–Is there a source I can go to in order to get American Mill information...size of blade for the #1, carriage size, etc in order to determine exactly which American Mill this is when I go to look at the mill?

– Is there anyway to modify this mill (beef it up) in order to handle bigger stuff? Change the blade size. Bigger power source? Re-enforce the bed, carriage, etc.? Add a winch? How hard is it to add a top saw?  I have heard of some sayers doing this back in the day.  Is it cost effective if I pay much less for the mill? Maybe I would be better off building another complete mill to suit my needs.

– My goal in considering the purchase of this mill has little to do with "production" and more to do with restoration...and in the process, if I acquire a way of starting out in the milling of some of my lumber....so much the better.  If it works out, I can work my way up into a more suitable milling platform. I enjoy bringing (breathing) life back into old discarded things...especially wood...this seemed like a good opportunity.

– Initial capital outlay is a consideration. I don't have $10,000 to buy a Dedicated Slabber...and absolutely refuse to go into debt over it.  I would love to go this route and...if production was my only consideration, I would definitely consider it. This would be a whole different ball game if I had a ready made market for walnut slabs...but I don't.          

– Thanks, Ron...it's been good to digest your info and it has given me a lot to think about.

[Dave_]

Spanky,

I'm sure Ron will give you a better answer, but the "weight" of a mill grows in scale throughout it's parts.  For example, the size of the knees, the throat opening of the knees, the size of the headblocks, the size of the drive shafts and arbor, the construction material and size of the carriage, the width of the drive belts, the length of the carriage, the size and weight of the carriage trucks and rail, the size of the setworks, the size of the husk timbers, etc., etc.

As I stated before and confirmed by Capt. Crunch, your prospect appears to be an American #1 or equivalent.  These mills were called "gypo mills" and were designed to be very portable so the owner could move from stand to stand and saw small logs for studs and dimensional lumber.  Being that a 12" wide board would be at the end of the scale, a 24"ish log would be plenty.  

For mills that were semi-permanent or permanent, a top-saw, as Ron said, was always used for sawing big wood.  The next size up would have been a full-scale band mill to handle the really big stuff.  Ironically, around here (in the "Timber Capital of the Nation"), most mills have been down sized to handle 24" and smaller.  There are very few big wood sawmills around anymore and the market looks to small mill guys to break down the big wood.  The big mills usually peel the big stuff for plywood as opposed to sawing.  We have one mill (Herbert Lumber) here that saws the big stuff for high grade, large dimension goods for export.

That little American would make a great hobby mill for breaking down farm wood, but, as Rod said, I think you would be better served by a different mill for sawing big stuff.

I think you can find out what you need here:
http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=3349

Hope this helps.

[Ron Wenrich]

Here's a few pictures of my carriage:













I would consider mine a pretty heavy mill.  It weighs 12,000 lbs.  It has a 42" opening on the headblocks.  I've sawn a few of that size.  The weight helps offset the force you have when you load and turn the log.  It also holds the log pretty well to prevent the log from springing.  But, its not fair to compare my carriage to the one you're looking at.  Mine's a newer automatic mill. 

Usually a top saw is mounted to the husk.  The ones I've seen were usually mfg along with the original husk.  You have to have them line up within a few thousands in order not to have a stepped board.  Both saws have to saw together.  You can't have any deviation in the blades, so good saw teeth and good techniques are essential.  But to add one to an existing mill would be more expensive than buying a slabber. 

Same goes with trying to beef up the existing mill.  You need more weight and much bigger headblocks.  Your carriage needs to be wider, which would also mean wider tracks.  Again, you will end up having more expense than a slabber. 

If you want to restore this mill, then its a fine mill to do the restoration and still have something that can be used on smaller logs.  I wonder if it wouldn't be more cost effective to make your own slabber than to do modifications on this mill. 

As I said in the other post, you seem to have a log resource.  But, you need to match your resource to your market, then figure out your production method.  Is it important to have wide boards?  Unedged flitches?  Quartersawn?

As an alternative, you can use your smaller mill for sawing smaller logs and cants and have someone reduce your larger logs with a swing mill or dimension mill.   At least until you can find a good used swing or slabber that fits your budget.

[bandmiller2]

Spanky,you could have alot of fun and cut scads of lumber with that old American its just not up to handling those huge logs that would take a large commercial mill.As Ron says A swing mill and/or slabber is the way to handle that big stuff.I just wave at that huge stuff and let it pass by,its more trouble and heartbreak than its worth. Its the smaller stuff that makes the money and builds the pile. Frank C.

[captain_crunch]

MY Belsaw with 46" will cut 17 1/2  but turning logs without log deck and Half moon set up is hard on things. 24" is about it I have cut 30+ but just to see inf I could.