Slab Price vs Dimensional lumber Price

[Solar_HoneyBee0]

Good evening,

 I was talking with a couple of friends that mill in my area and we were talking about how we all price our slabs. Out of 5 guys all of us has widely different perspectives. For instance, when you sell slabs, how do you determine price? Is there a relation to dimensional lumber prices? For example: If you had Red Oak slabs that were 2.5'' thick x 36'' wide x 12' long, would you still charge the same price as you do for Red Oak boards? For me Red Oak was selling for a little over $1.00/board foot last summer (haven't cut any in a while) and honestly I don't think selling a slab for that price is fair, but I have heard it both ways. Some people follow this rule and others don't. I know if my area, at least for Black Walnut this isn't the case. It seems that lumber goes for between $4.00 - $9.00/board foot. Slabs on the other hand often seem to be sold at around $10.00 - $12.00/board foot. So, what determines this/your price??

 I understand prices vary by region, species of lumber, whether the slab is one solid piece or "book matched" to make the desired length, kiln dried v air dried v green, and a hundred other variables. But is there some underlying thought process for slabs? How I generally approach selling slabs is as follows. I will make "baseline" slab categories. For instance, the "baseline" that I pick might be (i.e. 8' long x 2.5'' thick x 36'' wide) and from there you adjust your price lower if you have a smaller slab (i.e. 32'', 28'' 24'' etc) or higher if the slab is longer (10', 12', 14'). That may not have been explained the best. I guess another way to look at it is that I have set prices for varying widths that are based on 8' long lengths. If I sell longer lengths I adjust the price slightly to account for the added length. It's not much, usually only $30 dollars or so for every 2' additional feet. That might not be enough or maybe too much.

 I would love to hear your thoughts on this process. I would really like to see where this community lies within this topic compared to my friends and I. Maybe I'm doing it wrong or a backwards way. There might be a better thought process for this whole situation too. Any and all help is appreciated. As always, thank you for your time and advice.

[mddillon78]

I look forward to seeing what others have to say.

[WDH]

All my wood is priced kiln dried and skip planed.  All my slabs are priced based upon having been flattened before skip planing.  So, they are not green off the saw, and the are not air dried.  Kiln dried, sterilized, flattened, and planed. 

I set my prices based off the Hardwood Market Report, which is the weekly reporting service that reports the prior weeks average sale price for tractor trailer load quantities.  It is the baseline wholesale price for buying large bulk hardwood.  For retail sales of small quantities, I double the HMR price (which is for kiln dried, rough) and add a bit for planing.  This becomes the base price for 4/4 retail sales.  So, if the HMR price for rough sawn, kiln dried red oak, tractor trailer quantities, F.O.B sawmill (loaded on truck at sawmill, does not include freight or shipping) is at $2.00 per bf for FAS grade (top grade), My retail price for small quantities will be $4.75 per bf.  Note:  Home Depot and Lowes are at about $9.00 per BF with no room for any jointing to flatten if not dead flat ( and most of the boards are not), plus my stock is 15/16" thick, allowing the customer to do some final dimensioning.

I saw my slabs at 9/4 so that they will plane out to a full 2" most of the time.  To get the 9/4 price for a slab of red oak, I multiply the 4/4 base price of $4.75 times 1.5 which becomes $7.13 per bf.  If there is unique features like figure, curl, special color, etc. I will add to that price.  For 6/4, I multiply the 4/4 base price by 1.25, and for 16/4 (i.e. mantle beams), I multiply the 4/4 base price by 2.0.

So, HMR price for FAS walnut has been at $4.00, so my retail 4/4 price, kiln dried and planed, is $8.50.  The 9/4 slabs start at $12.75 per BF, and a 4" thick mantle would price at $17.00 per BF.

To get a perfect, kiln dried, dead flat, planed, black walnut slab finished out at a full 2" thick takes a huge amount of work and a tractor trailer load of equipment.  If a customer won't pay that price, they can go somewhere else.  If they can even find one, much less a perfectly prepared one. 

I use this method so that I can consistently price lumber from one customer to the next.  To get the full value, preparation is the key.  Proper sawing, proper stacking, proper air drying, proper kiln drying, proper sterilization, proper planing, and proper climate controlled storage.  This is what I do to set myself apart from those guys cutting and selling green slabs for beer money.

[OffGrid973]

Small operation view is start basic then add $50 each time you touch it.

2' wide, 2" thick by 10' Long = $100 right off the mill.   This is $10 a linear foot at 2" thickness, which is $2.50 a board foot from my gathering.

Each time you add basic step like kiln it jumps $100, which is $50 to move into kiln, $50 to take out, now that same slab is $200.

Different species can cause the initial price to be 2x or 5x more, but stick to a standard like mentioned above and when explained to the client it will be easily understood...and those who don't want to understand will not be good clients.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I doubt you find any real standard here nor do I think you should expect one. Every slab is a unique piece that cannot ever be reproduced exactly the same again. Selling them by the piece is likely the best technique. Rarity, work effort involved to create and the more difficult it is to obtain another similar piece justifies a higher individual price. Character is a huge factor. Out of the same log you may get one slab that would easily sell for $25 while the one next to it would sell for $50.

 A 10' X 9/4 slab that starts at 30" on one end and tapers in the middle to 20" at the narrow end might have to be cut/trimmed by the customer to get an 18" wide 10' counter top while another might saw it in half and get 2-5' tables one near 30" average and the other 20" average. You might be able to saw it in half and sell it for more or faster. But you then would not have the piece the first customer needed for his counter. Its a big crap shoot at times. I like the adage - You can always make them smaller.

 I admit I usually base mine on approximately the same bf rate I use for dimensional lumber. The trade off is I can often cut slabs from crotches and short pieces that would not make good dimensional lumber so it is a sort of salvage operation. They are a little slower and more difficult to produce which justifies some increased sale price. I typically sell my walnut for about $5/bf but I have one big 10' long log I took to a slabber as too big for my mill. I sell it for $10/bf because of the extra cost to have it processed and rarity. It is also much slower to sell so I have more handling and storage costs before I see a return.

 I often take a short slab (3-4 ft long) I would sell for $30-$40 and make it into a primitive bench and ask (Sometimes slow to get my asking price) $150-$200 for it. I add value but I also add more time, processing and handling.

 I like Offgrid's explanation and technique as it offers some standardization but flexibility to adjust for unique, higher value features as they occur.

 I guess the bottom line is no customer will ever really be able to do comparison shopping for slabs as no 2 sawyers have he same item. I think of it as a talented painter selling his/her paintings. Each is different and commands a different price even though they may appear to be approximately the same size and similar degree of difficulty to produce. I can't imagine you will ever see slabs for sale in the big box stores with any kind of standard pricing you can check. Good luck.

[Brad_bb]

One factor is width and length of the slab.  Longer but especially wider single slabs that will make a full table top need to be priced appropriately higher based on the availability of suitable logs to make such a piece, and the work and equipment it takes to make such a piece.  A 10ft long, 40 inch wide slab is worth far more than it's equivalent volume of regular lumber, due to the factors I mentioned.  You can make that much lumber from small logs, but you can only get a much smaller number of logs that will make such slabs.

I make a lot of beams.  So if I'm buying logs, I will pay more per board foot for a 24ft log that will make an 8x8 than an 8ft log that will make an 8x8.  Longer and bigger, quality log gets a higher board foot price.  It's harder to get those hardwood logs that are long enough and quality enough for a tie beam, or long principle rafter etc.  The bigger sawmills do the same thing.  Part of the price is based on availability of the log to make such a piece.

[Tom the Sawyer]

In some cases it is arbitrary, or appears to be.  A "whatever the market will bear" approach.  I saw an ad on CL for cherry "slabs".  From the photo, they appeared to be 8/4, about 24" x 8' long.  They were priced at $900 each.  I recognized the phone # from other situations and happened to run into the guy at a meeting (a tree service owner).  I asked how the cherry slabs were selling; his reply was, "I only have to sell one" with a chuckle.   >:(

Wider, and thicker, boards are more difficult to handle (stacking, restacking, planing, etc.) and take longer to dry.  At the local hardwood retailers, thicker boards cost more per board foot, for example 4/4 FAS walnut may be at $6, while 8/4 FAS walnut is at $9 p/bf.  There are also premiums for boards wider than 12", and again for wider than 20" if they have them.  Live-edges are difficult to find without going to a specialty retailer.  Ditto for bookmatched sets.

I primarily custom mill other peoples' logs and sell very little lumber although, once my kiln is operation, that will change.  In my experience, price is not the first consideration for most woodworkers.  First is "the look" (thickness, live-edge?, grain pattern, etc.).  Second is the amount of work left for them to do (drying, flattening, jointing, etc.).  Price comes third, whatever the price, it is balanced against the other two factors.  

Consider that you could have milled that log into grade lumber, more consistent pricing, easier handling, and a quicker return on your investment.  If you have the right log, and take the extra time and effort to create those one-of-a-kind pieces, you are out of the commodity market and in a specialty market = more risk, and potentially more return.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   I like the guy's take on that. My big walnut slabs sat in my yard for a year before I sold the first one but that paid for the transportation and slabber milling costs so anything else is profit and the lady bought the smallest one I had. I hope she comes back for the bigger ones on does such a good job on hers that her friends come get the rest.

[Pepe_Silvia]

....those guys cutting and selling green slabs for beer money.

I feel personally attacked by this  :D :D
I haven't delved into dimensional lumber, but I know around here it'll fetch 1/4 to 1/3 of the price a slab will.  I'm selling mine rough cut, typically air dried to 10-12%.  I'll start at $10/bdft and ballpark the board footage on the low end.
Right now I'm cutting faster than I'm selling, so once the slab piles become unmanageable and the kiln is built I'll probably start doing dimensional.

[Solar_HoneyBee0]

Good evening everyone,

Wow! Just read through the comments and it's incredible. Just incredible. I think I have a pretty firm grasp on variables and you guys approach this situation from angles that I didn't even consider. That's why I love listing questions like this because you all have such a wealth of knowledge. I can't thank you enough for taking the time out to write such detailed responses.

I wrote out responses to each of the responses, but the page appeared to be a mile long! I will try and cut my response down a bit. I read and will reread all of the posts from everyone. You all have excellent points. The one point that you all mention in one form or another is that, "For larger timber, thus larger slab potential, any slab that you create could demand a higher price based on thickness, length, width, character, handling, preparation, and shipping."

I agree with your thoughts. In my particular situation the logs that I have found are very unique. I have called local and even state wide loggers requesting these types of logs, however, I always get the same response, "I have NEVER seen timber of that species that big in my entire life." This fact alone makes me feel that the slabs should demand a higher price. Also, I think it was Brad who mentioned that you can always make lumber from smaller timber, but can't make larger slabs from the small timber. Great point.
Now, I have seen woodworkers and other mill operators join together smaller slabs to get the same (or larger) widths than the slabs that I have cut, but they also ask far more money than what I ask, but at times are close to my prices. So, do my "true" 40'' wide slabs demand the same price for a 40'' slab that (2) 20'' slabs created through joining? Hard to say at times.

I get the consensus from everyone that it would be foolish not to raise the price for larger (wider or longer or both) slabs. I will stick to my guns and price according based off that mind set.

Many of you talked about the preparation of the slabs. These particular slabs are not green, but are not kiln dried either. They are air dried to slightly above woodworking moisture. This is important as I will mention in a minute. They are not finished either, by all rights they are just rough cut with light sanding to take out any imperfections. The particular buyers that are repeat customers specifically request these specific details. I was confused at first, but several of them told me that they have bought slabs from individuals in the past in larger volume. When they had seen the "fresh" cut slab it looked great, however after the drying process apparently many of the slabs had issues. I'm guessing they became stressed, bowed etc. Anyways, they have decided to take on those responsibilities even though I have offered them. To help them on the cost end I have them air dried to a low moisture content. The buyers tell me this has been a huge benefit as they don't have to kiln dry them as long. It's odd, but I understand. I'm glad it helps them. To each their own.

Anyways, awesome discussion guys! I hope this too helps anyone wondering about their slab prices. I will check back and see how its going for everyone. Have a great evening.

[oakiemac]

I cut a lot of walnut slabs and price them $10-15/bf depending on size and figure. I just cut some fantastic ones that are 49" wide 8' long with great flame figure. These will go for about $1000.00 but I had a buy come out and agree to buy 4-6 of them at a reduced price. But I sold 4-6 at once so I'm happy to discount them for bulk buyers.
Cherry is less around 8-9 and oak,ash,hickory about $7/bf.
I guess I don't have a real standard that I use just market value around here.

[richhiway]

My question would be, how long do you think the slab thing will last before it goes out of style? 

[Tom the Sawyer]

George Nakashima's thick, live-edge furniture (even with bowties) dates as far back as the 1950's... still going strong.

[Ianab]

And if you think people are asking crazy prices for slabs, try buying one after George (or even his descendants) have laid hands on it.  :D

I'm sure fashion trends will come and go over the years, right now it's all about Walnut and live edge (live edge walnut for the win). Couple of years time this will probably wane, slabs wont be as "hot", and something else will be trendy, until live edge makes a comeback again. There will always be some people that want it. 

But for a small sawmill operator, you need to adapt to what the market wants, and you have the ability to switch to different products quickly, and sell what's in demand this year. 

[richhiway]

George Nakashima's thick, live-edge furniture (even with bowties) dates as far back as the 1950's... still going strong.

Thanks. I googled him interesting story. 

[Downstream]

Nakashima book "The Soul of a Tree" is a good read about him and his methods.

On slab pricing I start with a rough base price of $8-15 /bdft oak vs walnut and then go up based on size/figure/etc.   I price them high because I make more money turning them into furniture.

I think slab craze has peaked in my area because Im now seeing lower quality and price available too often.  Im staying at the high end of the market which should stay more solid over the long haul. 

[Solar_HoneyBee0]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the replys. Definitely appreciated. I was looking for some new reading material and looks like I'm going to have to look into this George fellow!

[Tom the Sawyer]

Checkout George Nakashima, Tage Frid, James Krenov, and Sam Maloof; you'll be inspired.