The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Firewood and Wood Heating => Topic started by: Yosarian on March 30, 2021, 01:42:00 PM

Title: Firewood prices
Post by: Yosarian on March 30, 2021, 01:42:00 PM
Maybe it's a function of automation and the growing affordability of more efficient processing equipment, or maybe it's a sign of just how little respect there is for the value of labor, but 40 years ago we sold honest cords of well-seasoned red & white oak for $225 to $250, split, stacked, & delivered, to the Annapolis area from Maryland's eastern shore, hauling 4 cords & dragging another 2 in a trailer to try and better amortize the trip.

A cursory examination of the local market today shows people selling cords of oak dumped in the driveway as cheap as $160, and sometimes less. In 1980 gasoline, diesel, heating oil, and electricity were all less than half what they cost today - so what's up? I've been out of that game since way back then, but it's always made me wonder.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Tacotodd on March 30, 2021, 02:44:17 PM
1st off, welcome aboard!

Now that's out of the way, my friend (and we grew up together since I was 4 and him 3) was very eager to take my word and believe what I said, and he VERY gladly gave me $160 for a 1/2 cord of red oak that I split by hand with nothing but a engineer hammer and wedge, for that was all I had at the time! I delivered in my utility trailer and my Tacoma. Green it was and he was happy to do it. I explained to him about legal definition of cord, and he couldn't get any wood from ANYWHERE at the time. We were both happy as clams, and I still see him on at LEAST a weekly basis.

If it weren't for him knowing me and what I went through to make sure that happened, then I REALLY don't think that he SHOULD have paid me anywhere near that amount. I kinda feel guilty about it to this day. He's long since forgot about it, but I don't think that I ever will. He and I were both raised to have this little thing called a conscience. Lots of folks these days don't have one, but we like to sleep well at night. 

I told him it was green and he asked me what that meant. I explained to him EVERYTHING that I know about firewood and wood in general. It took ME all of about 15min, cause that ain't much. But I know seasoned and green. But, we are both hardheaded and like to do stuff our way until shown what and why something is better.

But firewood prices are sorta better these days, but finding a personal touch is VERY important. And so is honesty and friendship.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on March 31, 2021, 12:53:12 AM
Quote from: Yosarian on March 30, 2021, 01:42:00 PM- so what's up? I've been out of that game since way back then
Debt-fueled desperation and maybe the occasional addiction.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 31, 2021, 04:04:37 AM
40 years ago or 4? 'Cause 40 years ago, you'd do well to get $80 a cord up here, lots was sold for $50/cord. Whatever pulp prices in the area was at the time. In the 60's dad cut pulp, peeled it, loaded on truck, and hand loaded on rail car for $20 a cord. Back then it was 4' length pulp, and there was mountains of it moving by log truck, rail, pickup truck, wagon etc. Back then you could go into the mill yard with a pick up truck full, not now. And that continued on until the early nineties. But by the 70's you didn't have to peel. The Irvings were busy counting all that pulp money from cheap slave labour. :D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 31, 2021, 05:02:42 AM
I gotta ask, where is here? I'm in upstate NY and firewood prices were unfortunately 180-225 a cord about 10 years ago, and have just now gotten to a slightly more tolerable 200-245 a cord. That being said, if you travel to a couple select rich suburb areas outside of Albany NY $280-400 a cord is not unheard of....
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Old Greenhorn on March 31, 2021, 06:24:48 AM
If you were selling for $225/cord 40 years ago you must have already retired well. Back then it was 125-150 cord here so you had some wealthy clients.
 These days it is running around 250/cord, but some get as high as 350 for tumbled and seasoned. If I could get it for 160 I think I might buy it and save myself as lot of time. ;D The influx of city folks living 'full time' here this past winter has driven prices up because they are burning more wood then ever before. All the cutters I know have been processing everything they get and it goes right into the dump truck and out for delivery, no piles found anywhere.
 @Upstatewoodchuc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=39402) , where are you located? I am in Ulster County.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on March 31, 2021, 06:48:27 AM
Can't offer an explanation, just an observation. Pretty much see the same numbers as Opstate does, as we are not that far away. $250 seems to be the going price around here right now. But it's as though $250 is some kind of ceiling that never gets broken. Over the years, firewood prices have been unusualy stable. There are often a few sellers who are willing to sell cheap to "get the sale" and that creates a downward pressure on prices. Saw that the last few years with all of the dead ash around here. Lotta guys that don't normally sell wood jumped in the game. And even though the cheap sellers are all out of the game this late in the heating season, the price stays at $250.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on March 31, 2021, 07:51:29 AM
our ceiling is $50 a rick.. which is about $150 a cord but if someone is buying 3 ricks theyll want a "volume discount."  good way to die broken. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: brianJ on March 31, 2021, 08:18:54 AM
Quote from: Spike60 on March 31, 2021, 06:48:27 AM
Can't offer an explanation, just an observation. Pretty much see the same numbers as Opstate does, as we are not that far away. $250 seems to be the going price around here right now. But it's as though $250 is some kind of ceiling that never gets broken. Over the years, firewood prices have been unusualy stable. There are often a few sellers who are willing to sell cheap to "get the sale" and that creates a downward pressure on prices. Saw that the last few years with all of the dead ash around here. Lotta guys that don't normally sell wood jumped in the game. And even though the cheap sellers are all out of the game this late in the heating season, the price stays at $250.
200 bucks is  about the limit here near Syracuse
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on March 31, 2021, 02:02:05 PM
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 31, 2021, 06:24:48 AM
If you were selling for $225/cord 40 years ago you must have already retired well. Back then it was 125-150 cord here so you had some wealthy clients.
These days it is running around 250/cord, but some get as high as 350 for tumbled and seasoned. If I could get it for 160 I think I might buy it and save myself as lot of time. ;D The influx of city folks living 'full time' here this past winter has driven prices up because they are burning more wood then ever before. All the cutters I know have been processing everything they get and it goes right into the dump truck and out for delivery, no piles found anywhere.
@Upstatewoodchuc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=39402) , where are you located? I am in Ulster County.




I'm in greene county, pretty much across the river! Not the true upstate, only say upstate NY because if you don't specify people assume you're from NYC.... yuck lol.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 31, 2021, 02:35:45 PM
Firewood now is $280-450 cord, more near the big centres. I make my own, for the most part and always figure on $300 a cord in my pocket. I do up 8 cord, so 32 of them $100 bills. One Tacoma load is one of them $100 bills. ;D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Old Greenhorn on March 31, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Quote from: Upstatewoodchuc on March 31, 2021, 02:02:05 PM
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 31, 2021, 06:24:48 AMI'm in greene county, pretty much across the river! Not the true upstate, only say upstate NY because if you don't specify people assume you're from NYC.... yuck lol.
Well I need a new map then because my map shows Greene and Ulster on the same side of the river. ;D I am at the east end of the Reservoir (Ashokan) and you r likely due north of me, depending on the town, likely you are pretty close to Barge.
Anything north in the city or L.I. is upstate. It's a state of mind, not a place. :D 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: logman81 on March 31, 2021, 05:19:04 PM
I own a landscape and tree service in Albany County area and ive never gotten as much for firewood as I have now at $225 a cord for green wood delivered. When we get some seasoned in stock it will be $300 a cord. We have no trouble at all selling it at those prices its actually hard to find enough wood to keep the stock up for inventory. Maybe its our location im not sure but its definitely worth doing. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Al_Smith on March 31, 2021, 10:22:10 PM
40 years ago I was getting $40 a pick up load,1/2 cord .
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: cutterboy on April 01, 2021, 07:00:32 AM
I sell firewood for $50 a quarter cord. I don't deliver, you come and pick it up. $50 has been the price for the last five years and $45 for nine years before that. I get no complaints and always sell out. I'm in a rural part of Massachusetts so prices are on the low side. They say near Boston a cord of wood goes for $350.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11157/DSC04668.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1599493876)
 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Al_Smith on April 01, 2021, 09:21:50 AM
Kind of funny how this firewood has come and gone over a time period .In the mid 70's to early 80's it seems there was alleged to be an energy shortage .Which there really wasn't .They sold a zillion wood stoves and in the farming country all the fence line tree growths disappeared .Then all the sudden from out of nowhere  it all changed .Wages caught up with natural and propane gas prices and the wood stoves got sold at garage sales .Then 20 years later it started back up again .
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Al_Smith on April 01, 2021, 09:28:26 AM
Having said the previous you'll never get rich selling the stuff on a small scale especially in hardwood country .At best it could be an alternative to get extra money .Good exercise though if nothing else .The only reason I even bother for my own use these days is because I have an abundance of the stuff .Plus it provides exercise for myself plus a method to test out my chainsaws which are in  itself is just a hobby .
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 01, 2021, 09:47:06 AM
I'm in hardwood country to, but I burn mostly everything else. Thinning the woods, I burn wood, so in the stove. I've got lots to thin. 8)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Al_Smith on April 01, 2021, 10:12:03 AM
Well you can burn swamp willow if that's all you have .Just takes more of it is all . :)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 01, 2021, 10:31:13 AM
I did happen to have some chunks of alder I forgot I threw in the pile last year. If I come across a nice size willow, I wouldn't turn it down. It actually don't take much, but for sure the fire doesn't burn as long. I just don't need a fire all day and night. I don't run my fires smothered either. I gotta burn wood 9 months, I've never run out. :)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: BradMarks on April 01, 2021, 11:14:02 AM
I'd pass on burning the willow, smoke smells pretty much like the sewer.  Unless you don't like neighbors ;D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 01, 2021, 11:23:46 AM
No worst than aspen. I don't have to smell it, it's outside. Might be good for headache, not sure how ASA reacts when burnt. Neighbors don't mind their smoke smell or manure. ;D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Twowithone on April 02, 2021, 10:24:07 AM
Pittsburgh Pa. area $270 a cord $ 30 delivered.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Thomasjw4 on April 02, 2021, 10:57:25 AM
If I sell any its at least 150 a cord, but all softwoods.  I cant compete with the tweakers cutting 24/7 and selling for 75-100 a cord.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 02, 2021, 11:12:48 AM
Believe it or not, there are also folks doing it for charity, even loaning the firewood processor and a mill donating delivering dry wood. This would be weekend community get togethers.

Can You Help Me? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNMGQUvXsyM)

Nearly Dumped A K Processor Off A Trailer - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhzMTxQwGJI)

10 Years Of Firewood Cut in 8 Hours - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yRavnGOCrc)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on April 02, 2021, 12:53:27 PM
Quote from: Thomasjw4 on April 02, 2021, 10:57:25 AM
If I sell any its at least 150 a cord, but all softwoods.  I cant compete with the tweakers cutting 24/7 and selling for 75-100 a cord.
same.  i have bought it from them when i ran out and got a call for wood from a friend in need though. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Blue Noser on April 03, 2021, 07:12:00 PM
I live in rural Nova Scotia, about 45 minutes outside of down town Halifax (our largest and only city in the province). I can sell softwood (spruce, balsam fir, aspen, eastern larch) firewood for $200/cord picked up by the customer and hardwood (red maple) for $250/cord picked up by the customer. I do 15-20 cords per year.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Mooseherder on April 05, 2021, 01:12:09 PM
It's all in the Marketing. :D


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/20210402_122632.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1617642423)

7.39 for 432 cubic inches
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 05, 2021, 01:43:51 PM
Yup, she'll make authentic 'natural' smoke. Natural is the key to big bucks. :D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on April 05, 2021, 02:27:42 PM
I get $8.09 for the organic smoke.   Pallet nails are complimentary.. The iron helps give a shiny mane and promotes healthy gums and cuticles. 


Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Tacotodd on April 05, 2021, 04:33:16 PM
Healthy gums 🤣
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 18, 2021, 03:17:24 PM
We buy our logs, then block and split and stack. Once dry, we sell it. And we have a kiln for those who want guaranteed dry firewood. We sell a stacked cord, not a log cord. There's a difference. Takes about an extra 12% to 15% logs to make a stacked cord. So an 18 wheeler of logs delivered being 16 cords, we get just near about 14 cords once split and stacked.

Each week the prices are updated based on fuel prices change overnight Thursday's. We're in rural Nova Scotia as well. Plenty of people selling in the last 1-1/2 years. Most seem to be selling for $225 delivered for one cord. We did that for a while and quickly realized you're working for pennies. This past year we were selling seasoned for $250 delivered locally, no matter how much they bought. Again, tracking expenses and time, come to realize we were losing again. So the prices are now like shown below, prices include delivery and taxes.

Delivery is the biggest expense. Yet some people don't mind, they just want dry wood. Biggest sale to date this year was a guy paid us $855 for one cord of kiln dried hardwood delivered to his cottage, it was a 6 hr round trip.

So I don't begrudge others for selling at $225. They can have that share of the marketplace. We're as busy as we want to be.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20210917-firewood-price-list-2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631992137)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: beenthere on September 18, 2021, 04:12:21 PM
Jim
Good accounting for figuring selling price. 

What is the difference in moisture content between your "seasoned" and "kiln dried" firewood?
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 18, 2021, 05:09:05 PM
Quote from: beenthere on September 18, 2021, 04:12:21 PM
Jim
Good accounting for figuring selling price.

What is the difference in moisture content between your "seasoned" and "kiln dried" firewood?
Air dried seasoned we class as logs that have been cut for minimum one year and then split stacked for minimum 4 months. Usually by that time the wood is at about 30% MC.  For kiln dried, I generally take it down to about 20-25% average (Nyle L200 kiln using 4 probes for samples buried in the stacks).  Some clients have backyard pizza ovens and they request the wood be down to 15%.
After a kiln run

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20200603_073644-kiln-firewood-batch7-day4-kiln-dried-firewood-results2_copy.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1631999333)
 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 18, 2021, 05:29:30 PM
pallets on skate platforms?  
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 18, 2021, 05:56:55 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 18, 2021, 05:29:30 PM
pallets on skate platforms?  
Platform trolley holds two crates. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20200201-loading-kiln-with-firewood~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632001964)
 
The wheels look like this.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20180116-kilncartwheel-2~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632002033)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20180116-kilncartwheel-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632002033)
 
Each trolley has 4 wheels. Two wheels roll on 90º angle iron. The other two roll on flat stock steel.
There's several videos on our YT channel if you are interested.
Jim Barry - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/c/JimBarryWoodworkersWorkshop/search?query=kiln)

Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 18, 2021, 08:04:51 PM
Neat.  


I built my chainsaw sawmill thingy similar. One side is groove rollers and the other just flat.  Works fine. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: GRANITEstateMP on September 18, 2021, 08:24:59 PM
Jim, real neat drying system you got there!  About how long to dry a batch?  Can you fit 4 cord a time in the kiln?

We sell 95% green wood. Most deliveries are within 10 miles, a few are 15-20. All sales are full cords (128 cu. ft loosely stacked) that are processed into a dump trailer(s).  Prices (delivery included) for new customers are - $165 a cord camp wood (soft wood 18in lengths), $250 a cord green hardwood, and for the 3 cord of 16in long wood we cut split, stacked last fall, that'll go for $350 a cord after Thanksgiving.

Our most popular length is 16in. We won't cut shorter than 14.5in lengths (it's a pain and the processor doesn't like short pieces). We also do a lot of 18in and 22in wood. I'd love to do more seasoned wood, but the green is my bread and butter and it's less work to just process into the trailer and dump vs stack it, dry it, then reload...but I do like the extra $$$ for seasoned ;D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 19, 2021, 10:07:32 AM
Quote from: GRANITEstateMP on September 18, 2021, 08:24:59 PM
Jim, real neat drying system you got there!  About how long to dry a batch?  Can you fit 4 cord a time in the kiln?

We sell 95% green wood. Most deliveries are within 10 miles, a few are 15-20. All sales are full cords (128 cu. ft loosely stacked) that are processed into a dump trailer(s).  Prices (delivery included) for new customers are - $165 a cord camp wood (soft wood 18in lengths), $250 a cord green hardwood, and for the 3 cord of 16in long wood we cut split, stacked last fall, that'll go for $350 a cord after Thanksgiving.

Our most popular length is 16in. We won't cut shorter than 14.5in lengths (it's a pain and the processor doesn't like short pieces). We also do a lot of 18in and 22in wood. I'd love to do more seasoned wood, but the green is my bread and butter and it's less work to just process into the trailer and dump vs stack it, dry it, then reload...but I do like the extra $$$ for seasoned ;D
Currently fit 2 cord. Could probably fit 3 cord if we used taller crates but then it comes down to mechanics of moving the platform with 2/3rd cord on it. Simply math says that's 2500lb (or 1150kg). A lot of weight for the two of use to handle. I have a cable system in place to pull using the winch but its not perfect. Actually I made the kiln too small, its a tight fit. Ideally the bldg should be 2ft wider. But i was trying to stay under the municipal bylaws for bldg permits. Can't use sawmilled lumber for bldg with permit unless its stamped. Which it isn't. Trying to build on a budget.
Agreed, green wood is the product that could keep a person busy. No handling, right into a trailer and off you go. But there's so many here doing that for such a small amount, we decided to focus on an area of the market that are willing to pay more. As it turns out, we work less and make more. Not a bad deal.
Length of time to dry has a few variables, like time of year, and how green the wood is. Kiln drying frozen wood in Feb or Mar takes twice as long as it does in the summer. Doesn't matter if its green or seasoned. That's due mostly to the fact that the wood has to get up to 125ºF to really get the water flowing. The dehumidifier will start dripping at about 88ºF though.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on September 19, 2021, 10:27:55 AM
Yep nothing like nanny state regulation to help out average joe blow. Got a housing shortage, people being kicked out of campers and sheds they’re living in because nothing else. I forget where it was in the states but someone here was saying you could build whatever without it being stamped  so long as that wood was cut off that land. Seems like a good system to have. Not sure how we got here but, here we are.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: GRANITEstateMP on September 19, 2021, 07:37:12 PM
Thanks for the info Jim. We have a local guy here that does the kiln dried, they do a real good job with it and get a premium price, whenever I have a customer looking for dry wood and I'm out (since I don't do much) I send them the business.

I've always been told, shed or garages, build it 20% bigger than you think you'll need!  Then again those folks budget was always bigger than mine! At least you can utilize your own milled lumber, even if the footprint isn't ideal.

I like working less AND making more! Heck, most days I'd take one or the other, but, I'd rather have both
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Al_Smith on September 21, 2021, 08:23:50 AM
Quote from: HemlockKing on September 19, 2021, 10:27:55 AM
Yep nothing like nanny state regulation to help out average joe blow. Got a housing shortage, people being kicked out of campers and sheds they're living in because nothing else. I forget where it was in the states but someone here was saying you could build whatever without it being stamped  so long as that wood was cut off that land. Seems like a good system to have. Not sure how we got here but, here we are.
As far as that as far as I know in this part of Ohio there are no regulations on what you can or cannot do for housing constructions .If so it would be in metro areas not so much urban areas .Having said that it's been decades since I've seen recycled lumber used on much of anything except perhaps for a shed .
My shop for example is 60 by 70 all of recycled steel  .The permit set me back a whole two dollars and was never inspected .The two bucks I think was  just to give them a heads up so they could tax it . I might add we don't have the "chainsaw police "either like some . :)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on September 21, 2021, 09:38:17 AM
The cost of everything/life has gone up drastically in the last couple years, so why shouldn't firewood? The people who sell it need to live too, were due for a price adjustment here soon I'm sure I'm not sure how much longer guys can keep selling 200 a cord, all that work just to hardly break even
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 21, 2021, 09:59:32 AM
the only way youll get firewood to rise is to form a firewooders association and agree to raise prices together in unison.  and i dont think thats wrong either.  if the public can pay double for a soda or pizza they can pay a little more for heat. theres no reason we should subsidize them at a loss by doing such back breaking work. its become a forced charity.  $40-50 a rick here still but everything else doubled. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Al_Smith on September 21, 2021, 10:46:55 AM
To put things in retrospect during the mid 70's to early 80's I sold firewood .I was getting 40 bucks for a heaped up pick up truck load ,about a tad over1/2 cord .I made around $10 an hour as a union electrician and about the same selling firewood but the later was just a part time thing .Then it wasn't a bad deal today I would not do it .That's a young mans game .
Wood burning comes and goes with popularity .During the so called energy crunch of the late 70's all the fence rows were cut down and everybody who had a metal shop made wood burners .10 years later they had all grown back and the stoves were selling at garage sales for about scrap steel prices .

The reason I even bother with wood burning is firstly I have an abundance of it, all good hardwood .I get  some exercise in the colder months rather than vegetate and grow fat from inactivity .Lastly I'm a restoration type with chainsaws in addition to a hot rodder with same on occasion .Gives me a chance to try out the saws .   
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: bulldozerjoe on September 22, 2021, 07:28:17 PM
I get 60 picked up, 70 delivered. A face cord in western ny. It not worth it to me but I heat my house and used to heat my grandparents house with wood... so I'm kinda immune to the labor and cost to produce a face cord of wood... and tell you the truth i kind of like it lol
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on September 23, 2021, 12:38:31 PM
It's tough, I raised my prices again this year, but still think im low. I do $250 a cord of mixed tree service hardwoods and then try to make up the difference with the delivery fee. Still, I see some guys at 280-300 near me and I have good consistent wood so I think I should be higher, however it's tough with some of the legacy customers, particularly the older retired ones that have been with me for 10 years since it was $200 a cord. I end up saying "thank our NY state politicians" atleast once a day to customers, business is getting stupidly expensive here.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: snobdds on September 23, 2021, 06:12:01 PM
Natural gas has more than doubled since last year.  Demand should increase for firewood to offset natural gas prices. 

Unless there is a bunch of new firewood suppliers, prices should rise for firewood. 

A cord of pine in Wyoming goes for around 225, split and delivered.  I am seeing prices around 275-300 a cord this year.  This is a price increase of 22-33%.  Which is still cheaper than the 50% for natural gas.  

So it's inline with normal price ratios...
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on September 24, 2021, 04:18:34 AM
I like cutting firewood myself. It's more than a heat source, it's a chance to use up the lesser quality trees and space the woods. Plus the exercise, which I never lack, but a little more can't hurt too bad. :D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on September 24, 2021, 06:51:48 AM
Prices are finally going up around here. $250 seems to be the starting point, and that's for green. There are still some low ballers; and I think they'll always be there. But there is way more demand than those guys can fill, so prices are rising in spite of them. Nearly everyone who sells wood around here also does something else and their attitude is either they make decent money on firewood or they'll be doing the "something else".

If there's ever a time when you can raise prices without getting too much blowback, this is it. With the prices of everything going up, firewood shouldn't be the typical exception that it always seems to be.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: doc henderson on September 24, 2021, 07:24:28 AM
It used to be that firewood and natural gas were both about $7 per million BTUs, and electric and propane were at $14 per million BTUs.  will have to see about nan update, but seems to me the price on wood has remained constant compared to that time.  wood pellets are higher and have more processing and transportation costs.  (not the same as wood)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 24, 2021, 07:26:59 AM
The m2 money supply went from about 15Trillion to nearly 21trillion in the last year so thats the appropriate correction percent on consumer goods.  The closer to the financial centers of the US one is physically located,  the quicker the rise in goods has been since the residents who receive the trickle down first can afford it soonest.  Newly minted wealth is distributed via the central banks.  

I guess we can conclude that bankers and their associates dont burn much firewood.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on September 24, 2021, 10:19:12 AM
A big scam system of IOUs, what little money is real, is in your “bank” being embezzled to make big guys more money while they screw you.
And if they fail chances are the government will use your tax money to bail them out lol . Pound sand little guys (businesses)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: bulldozerjoe on September 24, 2021, 08:20:10 PM
Had 2 people call me today looking for firewood delivered..  I'm in western ny, our wood is sold by the face cord.. told them 75 a face cord delivered... good seasond ash and cherry.. 17 inch pieces.. they both responded with never mind.. lol we just don't get the prices around here other places get... o well 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mudfarmer on September 27, 2021, 10:18:04 PM
Same here Joe. Once in a while find someone willing to pay a premium for a good product but mostly want it at $40 or $50 per face cord "like they've always paid" ::) Funny they don't tell walmart or the gas station the same line. They are just trying to take advantage of you (whether they know it or not). Sell it for what it costs you to produce + fair markup or set it on fire in the yard and put the video on youtub
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on September 28, 2021, 05:53:52 AM
People struggle with the concept of "premium" because most of them just think "wood is wood". They often need to have a bad experience before they'll pay more to avoid it.

Going to be entertaining this year to say the least. The glut of dying ash over the last several years has run it's course. But it has skewed the business model around here in the sense that seasoning didn't really have to be factored into the equation. Made it easy for sellers and buyers alike. Now it's moving back to a traditional hardwood mix and folks need to allow for seasonong again.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Old Greenhorn on September 28, 2021, 07:01:53 AM
If you want to make folks appreciate what they are getting for their money, let them cut split and stack a couple of cords (elderly folks exempted). It won't take long for 90% of them to say 'forget that, $250 is CHEAP!' 
  For me, firewood is not 'ambiance' it is survival through the winter and comes down to economics. It is just cheaper to heat with wood I collect, harvest, buck, split and stack than it is to do it with oil. That's it. If I had to pay for wood with cash it would likely not pan out. I would pay about $2500. per season for wood. That day will come for me, of course, but not yet, it just takes me longer to do my wood these days.
 I am still taking all the dead ash I can get my hands on, that ship has not sailed yet, but it's working it's way toward the horizon for me too. I am a small individual cutter, not a production guy, so I can still find smaller trees and once in a while a big one to make a difference, but not like before. Besides, I like to mill the bigger logs because Ash won't be easy to get for build projects.
 Back in my working days I would buy wood from a friend down the road during years I was overworked and the kids required the little 'home time' I had, and the cash was available. I never complained a bit about getting a full sized load and stacking it myself while paying the going rate. He did give me a slight discount because he could split and load his truck and have it laying in my driveway in less than an hour (less than 2 miles away) and be back home again with no issues. But that was his choice, I never asked for a discount. In those years I split by hand so I had a good idea what work I was being saved from by buying wood.
 If they don't work for it they will never appreciate it. With firewood, they never see the work involved, so it's easy to complain. Just stop selling at low prices and let the weekend warriors beat each other to death with their price wars. I know 2 local suppliers fairly well, one raised his prices this year and is HOPING some of his regulars drop out because he has too much work and firewood just doesn't bring the profit that land clearing and tree work brings. The other raised his price to $250. a couple years back and let the chips fall where they may. He is still quite busy and he doesn't really need that work either. The logs he doesn't cut and split this year will be in the pile for next year or they will wind up in his OWB heating his complex. Bob, I am sure you know both of these guys.
 Oh, and it's just my opinion, but folks that start calling around for firewood prices around thanksgiving time should pay a good premium for their stupidity, and those that 'gotta have firewood' in January should pay 60% more, if they can find a source that can dig it out of the snow.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on September 28, 2021, 07:26:40 AM
I was thinking the same OGH, let em split it themselves and see what think then! Don't want to pay? Good go without heat for awhile then maybe you will see the commodity I offer is much more important than  all the other material plastic junk you buy at Walmart and don't argue their prices, so what gives, you just like screwing over little guys? People are just not pleasant to deal with in the slightest. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Al_Smith on September 28, 2021, 08:11:24 AM
Back in the day I had one smart aleck say something about the price which was cheap enough .My response was the wood is free ,you're paying for  the labor and delivery costs .He never bought any more from me  which suited me just fine .
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 28, 2021, 09:15:41 AM
I have determined that i wont work for free at things i dont want to do, and $50 a rick is working for free.  If you factor in joint damage its worse.  So i wont sell any more wood until i build a processor but i still have all this highgrade to release so i am harvesting and piling.  What gets punky can go in the evaporator or in my stoves. 

Anyway whenever i get back to it i will handle lowballers exactly how i did before.  I give them the numbers of the guys who are cheaper.  A man can only process so much wood.  Pillheads sell soaking wet doaty wood cut down just a few months prior to burning and on front lawns in the rain. when the 3 of them pull in your yard toothless and high looking at all you and your neighbors stuff you will realize how little you like the $40/rick crowd.   


Either way, it serves my needs to have the cheap guy get bought out early in the season so i send lowballers to them as fast as possible.  No one is a lowballer in january/february when the pipes are fixing to freeze and wood peddlers are all universally sold out of sopping wet big blocks of wood that need kindling 2x4 supplments to stay lit.  Theyll see the value in the extra $20
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 28, 2021, 09:18:32 AM
Theres nothing wrong with $40 pillhead wood in the summer. I have bought it from them and brought to my friends a few times.  Its real hard to sell wood here in summer and addicts gotta eat too so it helps everyone i think. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on September 28, 2021, 09:23:46 AM
I suppose that makes sense, just overload the cheap guy, get on with the process of them finally coming back to you full circle for your original asking price lol 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 28, 2021, 09:33:48 AM
Theres a pallet shop near me that sells a truckload of oak and poplar cant trimmings for $50 for a full 8ft bed dumped in. When their pile is up i cant sell wood.  When its gone i get what i ask.  Thats the measuring stick.  


Fine.. Help that pile be depleted in cool weather.  Deep cold brings deeper pockets.  I wanna sell all my inventory in the deep pocket window.  Its not xold enough here for year round sales.  If youre wearing a T shirt you cant sell any so just wait.  But you need fast delivery capability to capitalize on the short duration arctic blasts. Thats why i rounded up the bits to build a big 1ton dump.  In summer i would have to deliver and stack 1 rick to make a sale.  In a cold snap i get to dictate the terms.  Three rick minimum dumped out and im gone. 

Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 28, 2021, 10:07:26 AM
QuoteJust stop selling at low prices and let the weekend warriors beat each other to death with their price wars.
Exactly.

Quote...folks that start calling around for firewood prices around thanksgiving time should pay a good premium for their stupidity, and those that 'gotta have firewood' in January should pay 60% more, if they can find a source that can dig it out of the snow.

Again, exactly this point. And there will be some that are new homeowners to the area and need wood. For those, I offer up some education on what they need to do (buy green and season themselves) if they are receptive to listening.

Quote....let them cut split and stack a couple of cords...
We did that with a customer. Told them if they helped out stacked we'd pay them in firewood. They lasted 1 hour and told us they'd be happy to pay for it delivered.
We're now 20-30% more in selling price that everybody around us for seasoned wood. We're ok with that. We're sold out already from repeat customers and new customers (their friends and neighbours). We're up 80% over last year. Gotta say though, it took a lot of our time to get it done, so likely that is the limit for us. Actually looking at scaling back and just focusing on the kiln dried market. Will work half as much, but profit will much more. Hard to argue that math.  Some people just want dry wood delivered and put it in their house or shed with no other fuss. That's the market we are focusing on.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 28, 2021, 12:14:52 PM
in my mind the best money for me will be in eventually finding and serving only those with the pockets deep enough to have me come with a skid steer and nice crates full of perfect looking wood, put it right next to the back porch and maybe even strap some old tin over the top of the crates for them.  come back and get my crates when i drop off the next rounds.  no more advertising, just serve that handful of richies and do whatever other jobs they require.  powerwashing, tree work, fencing, pretty up the woods, flowerbeds, stone walls, etc.

there are many large parcels of land in the area paying tax bills that exceed my family income.  the richies are out there, ya just gotta have a way to meet them and have them be impressed with you when you leave. 

Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 28, 2021, 03:56:39 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 28, 2021, 12:14:52 PM
in my mind the best money for me will be in eventually finding and serving only those with the pockets deep enough to have me come with a skid steer and nice crates full of perfect looking wood, put it right next to the back porch and maybe even strap some old tin over the top of the crates for them.  come back and get my crates when i drop off the next rounds.  no more advertising, just serve that handful of richies ...
That's been the plan here, pick up a mini skidsteer with pallet forks that can pickup and travel with 1,000lbs. Skidsteer would have to weigh less than 2000lbs to be able to lift it aboard the truck and still carry 2 cords on crates. 

The 257B2 we have will do the job but its a beast at nearly 8000lbs.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20191025-firewood-skidsteer-baystlawrence-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632858985)
 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: doc henderson on September 28, 2021, 04:48:18 PM
Jim if the delivery area has a concrete drive, maybe a pallet jack could be used for placement.  we get ours on surface with the loader then move on the sidewalks with a pallet jack.  or get the lumber yard style delivery truck the allows the fork lift to mount to the back and lift itself up.  all terrain.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 28, 2021, 04:51:29 PM
Here's the variables I use form the spreadsheet I made for costing.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/firewood-variables.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632862275)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 28, 2021, 04:59:46 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on September 28, 2021, 04:48:18 PM
Jim if the delivery area has a concrete drive, maybe a pallet jack could be used for placement.  we get ours on surface with the loader then move on the sidewalks with a pallet jack.  or get the lumber yard style delivery truck the allows the fork lift to mount to the back and lift itself up.  all terrain.
95% of our customers are dirt driveway/grassy area. I could fabricate a pallet fork device much like the roofing/drywall industry use to delivery shingles/hardboard and use the grapple loader on our truck  to load/offload. But it would be limited in distance offloading due to the weight, likely would only get about 10ft away from the truck. I think most customers would not want pallets of wood lining their driveway. 
So as Mike said, with a mini skid, offload it, then pick up a pallet and put it right where the customer wants it, whether it's in their garage, back yard, etc.  Though I'd rather charge a deposit for the pallet crates, like $20 each, and if a repeat purchase is make, no added fee. But if they are a distance away and don't want to reorder but want their deposit back, well, they can bring the pallets to us (borrow a truck if they have to), or we can pick it up if we are passing by the area.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 28, 2021, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on September 28, 2021, 04:48:18 PM
.. get the lumber yard style delivery truck the allows the fork lift to mount to the back and lift itself up.  all terrain.
This is what you are refering to I think.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/images.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1632863380)
 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 28, 2021, 05:16:32 PM
Smaller version of that, need a tilt deck though.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/images-2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1632863783)
 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 28, 2021, 05:29:41 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 28, 2021, 12:14:52 PM
in my mind the best money for me will be in eventually finding and serving only those with the pockets deep enough to have me come with a skid steer and nice crates full of perfect looking wood, put it right next to the back porch and maybe even strap some old tin over the top of the crates for them.  ...
Mike, this pallet truck might is an answer to moving pallets of firewood.
ALL-T Powered All Terrain Pallet Trucks - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEF9uK4lBq8)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Hilltop366 on September 28, 2021, 05:32:15 PM
Beat me to it.

Livraison de bois de chauffage - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yGdQoCNj0s&t=74s)

Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Stephen1 on September 28, 2021, 08:55:47 PM
I have discovered if you build it they will come. Charge what you need to charge to make a living. If your working and losing money, might as well go fishing or play golf.  I charge more for my sawmilling and KD than everyone around me. I am now booking for next April for portable. My yard has a 2 month backlog of logs from people that I will saw and then hopefuly KD. I bring the 1-3 logs in by Flat Bed Tow Truck. 
I used to worry about the next guy and trying to stay around thier price, but not anymore. These are my rates. Go to the other guy if you think I am to high. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: barbender on September 28, 2021, 09:56:34 PM
Jim, if you and your wife are only paying yourselves $15/hr I'd like to hire the two of you for my operation😁
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 29, 2021, 06:32:31 AM
It's not that we want to. That's what it works out as when trying to come up with a marketable price. Throw me a dollar wage that you think would be reasonable, $20, $25 or more? I will throw it into the spreadsheet and we'll show the results.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: doc henderson on September 29, 2021, 08:49:42 AM
but at least you are charging for fuel and keeping track of time for loading and kiln drying and fuel cost.  so this is at least profit.  If you get on a roll and things done more efficiently, then the actual profit goes up.  I assume this is done to show costumers that you are not making a killing on their purchase.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 29, 2021, 09:26:33 AM
Quote from: doc henderson on September 29, 2021, 08:49:42 AM
but at least you are charging for fuel and keeping track of time for loading and kiln drying and fuel cost.  so this is at least profit.  If you get on a roll and things done more efficiently, then the actual profit goes up.  I assume this is done to show costumers that you are not making a killing on their purchase.
We're probably as efficient as can be. Maybe dumping the crates of firewood instead of hand loading would speed things up, but the process of dumping crates usually damages the crates in one way or another. They were not built for dumping. So where you might gain in time loading, you lose in time fixing crates. Could rebuild the crates, again, more time and material costs.

I don't show the customers those calculations per se. Now if they ask why our prices are higher, I'm certainly willing to explain to them what's involved. Like it was said earlier, if they knew what was involved to produce firewood they would likely understand more.  

I don't consider the hourly wage a profit, nor the time or fuel expense. Now, it could be consider part of Gross Revenue, but once all the operational costs are taken out, all that's left if net profit. I've always looked at transactions from a business standpoint, as if I had someone hired to do the work. There's many firewood sellers who hire out the work and simply finance the operation to obtain a profit. Capital costs, Inventory Cost, Labour, Operational Costs and Profit.

That's why one of the variables is Profit, and it's more for kiln dried since its a premium product. It's still not break even to be realistic about it all. It only would take one or two breakdowns of one of the trucks or skidsteer to wipe out profit for several years. Sure, could boost production but it would require hiring people. That gets into even more liabilities and risk management. I'd rather keep it small scale at this point.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 29, 2021, 09:30:20 AM
Those ride behind trucks are typically called moffets, though there are many brands.  A straight truck with moffet would be the ticket for crated deliveries.

I will probably never get to that point, but thats the thought process.  We have mild winters, cheap TVA electric and cheap natural gas from just a few miles away plus legions of pillhead firewood so boutique firewood is a very tiny demand. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: doc henderson on September 29, 2021, 09:37:57 AM
Jim I guess my point is some would go out and cut wood laying on the side of the road and sell a trailer load for a hundred bucks, and say I made a hundred bucks.  many in the non professional firewood think like that.  If I were buying from you, I could not argue with you making only 15 bucks an hour.  I might think about it if I saw a crate of wood for 250 dollars.  I used to buy a trailer of fresh cut dead wood 30 years ago, when I worked 18 hours a day.  It was a group of couples that did it for fun, they donated their time and all the cash went into a fund for a ski trip each year.  Heck I had fun just buying the wood from them.  they all came along and stacked it behind my house.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Magicman on September 29, 2021, 04:42:01 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 21, 2021, 09:59:32 AMthe only way youll get firewood to rise is to form a firewooders association and agree to raise prices together in unison.
Price Fixing (https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 29, 2021, 06:43:19 PM
Quote from: Magicman on September 29, 2021, 04:42:01 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 21, 2021, 09:59:32 AMthe only way youll get firewood to rise is to form a firewooders association and agree to raise prices together in unison.
Price Fixing (https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing)
Very true, and illegal, at least here.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Magicman on September 29, 2021, 07:28:46 PM
That is why I have never asked and have no idea what any of the surrounding sawyers charge to saw.  I charge a fair sawing rate for the customer and one that will also yield a fair profit for me.  I will not negotiate nor lower my sawing rate.  The other sawyers have their own business profile and I assume that they are doing the same.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Big_eddy on September 29, 2021, 08:31:18 PM
We charge $320 for a generous measured cord delivered within 25km. We see others advertising "roughly" a cord for $350 or more, 2 available, or pickup only or delivery extra. And I know of others selling at $300 a cord and no need for any advertising. We did our math and $320 worked so we set that price for the season. And our goal was to start deliveries in June and sell a few cords a week and be sold out by end of August so we can cut and split in the fall instead of delivering non stop all September. We did (60 cord)and the phone keeps ringing. 

Every customer we delivered wood to seemed pleased with the wood, and most are repeat customers. They called, confirmed the cost, booked a time and paid.  No customer ever questioned the price we stated. 

Our business model is to provide premium service and a generous cord at a fair price. We want our customers coming back to us. And they all do. To the point we have had to disappoint repeat customers this year. We called every past customer in July. Some waited too long to call back  But they all want us to call them again next year and promise to respond earlier.

As a side note, our 25km radius is firm. That is as far as we go. No delivery fees, no extra charges for longer distances. No sob stories. If they are outside our delivery radius, we politely decline or refer them to someone else. We will sell out within that radius, there is no need to drive further. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on September 30, 2021, 04:03:12 AM
Going for a cord of split hardwood around here seems 265. I won't ever sell at that. I'd sell my softwood for that. Hopefully these people that are selling 200-250 ish realize they are screwing themselves, working way to hard for to little, being taken advantage of.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on September 30, 2021, 07:11:03 AM
Landscaper came down from Windham/Hunter yesterday, which are both "ski towns". (They each have a slope). Up there it's $300-$356 for a real cord, so it's heading in the right direction. He's one of those guys who doesn't care about the low ballers. Has plenty to dio besides firewood, so either he gets what he wants or he's off doing something else.

And like a lot of you guys, he's offering a superior product. Delivered a cord the other day and it dwarfed a "cord" delivered by someone else. We're the same way really. He had 2 Exmatks go down yesterday. One needed a trans belt, the other needed an electric clutch. Parts in stock and both up and running in a half hour. No other shop can do that, which is why he drives down here from the next county. Our prices are high because we offer a high level of service. The homeowners with their box store equipment think we are expensive, but it's not about them, and we don;t care if they come in or not. I guess the box stores are the "lowballers" for us. Not at all interested in that end of the market.

Tom: Yes, sure I know those guys. :)

Jim Barry; Impressive how you have your operation set up!
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: barbender on September 30, 2021, 07:22:46 AM
Jim, I hope my comment didn't come across as an insult. I really admire your operation, and truth be told if I accurately accounted for my time I'd probably be in the same wage range. My solution is to not keep track my time and then imagine that I'm making $30/hr😂 So, if you plugged $25/hr into your spreadsheet, what would your price be?
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on September 30, 2021, 07:29:44 AM
Quote from: barbender on September 30, 2021, 07:22:46 AM
Jim, I hope my comment didn't come across as an insult. I really admire your operation, and truth be told if I accurately accounted for my time I'd probably be in the same wage range. My solution is to not keep track my time and then imagine that I'm making $30/hr😂 So, if you plugged $25/hr into your spreadsheet, what would your price be?
This is why I decided to care for my own land in the process of getting the firewood. Not much money and hard work in firewood. But it feels worth more if it's also TSI of your own property, at least that's how I feel. I'm sure you average out much less cords though as opposed to having delivered and bucking, but maybe it makes up the difference in it being the wood from your TSI would be free? If I didn't have my
Own TSI going on I don't think I'd bother with firewood
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Old Greenhorn on September 30, 2021, 07:57:37 AM
Bob, I just realized that those two guys I described could have been any of over 100 guys that frequent your store from a 3 county area, so yeah, you know them. :D (BTW, I am going to be on Ryan and John's radio show on 10/13, so I get to join your club.)

 I follow this thread and learn and share for 3 reasons: 1) I burn and process my own firewood, but my cutting days are numbered, B) A lot of my friends sell firewood and I am always on the lookout for things that may help them, and 3) With my Mushroom log business, there are a lot of parallels, so learning opportunities and tips abound here, for me.
 Of course the only direct similarity between firewood and mushroom logs is that it grows on trees, customers can be 'challenging', and pricing is always on my mind because it never seems to be quite enough....yet.
 
I just did some rough math and if I sold my mushroom logs by the standard cord of 128 cu. ft. (which I do not), the cost would be $761.00/cord based on average log size of 6 x 40". Sounds great right? Not really, but that's where I stand right now. That's at $4/log (my actual pricing) and the price goes to $5/log after the first of the year (which would come out to $914/cord if I sold that way). I have been informally polling clients when I make deliveries and not one of them thought the price increase for next year was unfair or unrealistic. I am sure the orders may get smaller for some, but that's just fine. I am learning you have to forget about the market sometimes and charge what you need to get in order to run a business. If this price is too high and nobody buys from you, then maybe you are in the wrong business?
 I did strike up a friendship with another log seller when I started. I told him I was getting $3/log (at that time) and he said 'man I don't know how you can make any money at that price, but more power to ya.' I thought on that and sold a couple hundred logs then realized I was working at a slight loss (and zero profit) so I raised it to $4/log and it was 'just ok' and manageable. I took that as 'cost of education and developing the business'. Now I am educated and have run detailed spreadsheets so I know exactly what my costs are over the length of a very hard season and now know that for me, I have to raise the price to justify the work, time, expense, and chiropractor bills (yes, that is an actual expense in doing this). I need to get in touch with that guy soon and let him know of my adjustment so he can laugh at me. He keeps inviting me up to tour his farm but I just haven't had a free day to make the drive. I think sometimes we focus too much on surviving and not enough on making a decent living.
 A lot of folks ask me if I sell firewood and I just say "Heck No" and refer them to any of a handful of good guys around here. The other day I was finishing up at the sawmill and the other guys were running a load of firewood off to finish out their work day. I went over and gave a hand. We filled the dump truck in about 45 minutes just using a 6 way timberwolf and a conveyor. It's just 'fill out the day' work for them and extra money for the company. But I realized with basic equipment, fire wood is SO much easier than those mushroom logs on my old body. Yet, there is no way I would jump into that business. I don't need those headaches. My hat is off to all you folks that 'make it work' for you. Firewood has to be one of the toughest businesses.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 30, 2021, 04:57:15 PM
Quote from: barbender on September 30, 2021, 07:22:46 AM
Jim, I hope my comment didn't come across as an insult. I really admire your operation, and truth be told if I accurately accounted for my time I'd probably be in the same wage range. My solution is to not keep track my time and then imagine that I'm making $30/hr😂 So, if you plugged $25/hr into your spreadsheet, what would your price be?
No offense taken. Attached are two screenshots, one showing $15/hr and the other $25. It shows all the calculations. Big pics so you might need to open them up individually in a separate window (or however you view the forum). Calcs show pricing for 1, 2 and 3 cords.
$15/hr

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/15perhr.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633035385)

$25/hr

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/25perhr.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633035384)
 

QuoteI think sometimes we focus too much on surviving and not enough on making a decent living....Firewood has to be one of the toughest businesses.
Ain't that the truth.  As for it being a tough business, I think just being in business is tough enough. I enjoy doing firewood...at my pace, in a work method that works for us. It's a great way to get in the daily exercise. Its like getting paid to go to the gym...almost ;)


Edit: Looks like the forum automatically reduces the images. So, here's just the screenshots of the final pricing.

$15/hr

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/15perhr-c.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633035676)
 

$25/hr

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/25perhr-c.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633035676)
 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 30, 2021, 05:04:53 PM
TSI
Someone school me on what this acronym is?
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Old Greenhorn on September 30, 2021, 05:11:08 PM
TSI, Timber Stand Improvement. Cutting to maximize the quality in a stand of timber i.e. thinning out overgrowing, releasing the better trees, culling unwanted species, etc.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on September 30, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
TSI work produces almost purely firewood. They really go hand in hand. 

The result is a future high quality forest with a faster growth rate than if left alone, if you do it right. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on September 30, 2021, 06:27:26 PM
I think here they call it Stewardship. Some examples;
https://www.nswooa.ca/uploads/5/9/6/9/59690537/biodiversity-stewardship-guide.pdf
https://novascotia.ca/natr/woodlot/pdf/Ecosystem-Classification.pdf
http://www.bondrup.com/uploads/6/7/6/5/6765532/1-30.pdf
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on October 01, 2021, 07:13:49 AM
I'll be sure and catch that show Tom. Vern Rist from Healthy Trees was on last week. Bunch of us old dudes passing along some knowledge. Hope some young dudes are listening. :)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Old Greenhorn on October 01, 2021, 07:50:26 AM
Well, don't get your hopes up too high. I'm a bit nervous about the whole thing but Ryan asked me on so what the heck. Yeah I enjoyed last weeks (9/16) show. I don't know that fella, but he knows what he is talking about. In fact, I listened to it twice while I was working in the shop. They haven't posted this weeks (9/20 and 9/27)shows yet that I can find. Next week is John Michelotti.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on October 01, 2021, 02:51:50 PM
Nothing to be nervous about Tom. Your posts are well written so you ought to be well spoken. It's just hanging out with Ryan and John and BS'ing for an hour. And you will be shocked at how fast that hour goes by. It'll be fun. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Old Greenhorn on October 01, 2021, 03:30:18 PM
Quote from: Spike60 on October 01, 2021, 02:51:50 PM
......... Your posts are well written so you ought to be well spoken.......
Yeah, I could see why you  would think that, But.... well, I have never been accused of being the sharpest tool in the shed. I also don't always think well on my feet, or come up with the best thought first, or express it the way I intended exactly. These days anybody can get offended at anything and I would like to minimize that if I can.
 Yeah, it'll be what it'll be and I'll just go with the flow if plan A doesn't work.
 By the way, they haven't released any of the podcasts in 2 weeks now, did they miss shows or are they just behind? I always miss it live and catch it on the replay. Can't hear the station from my place anyway. ;D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: BargeMonkey on October 02, 2021, 02:54:53 AM
Quote from: Magicman on September 29, 2021, 04:42:01 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 21, 2021, 09:59:32 AMthe only way youll get firewood to rise is to form a firewooders association and agree to raise prices together in unison.
Price Fixing (https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing)
😆.....  the pharmaceutical companies and oil companies can do it but God forbid guys hustling firewood agree on a fair price, which honestly the market does on its own. I can tell you where every processor sits in this county and almost every adjoining county. Who's going to supply the wood ? If your not partnered up with someone around here or cutting logs you might as well hang a for sale sign on it. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34634/received_2179311428913393.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1633157065)
 make more everyday.


Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on October 02, 2021, 12:16:21 PM
I wasnt gonna address it but yeah.  Its only illegal if you arent rich.  


When they start enforcing the anti trust laws on google, big beef or pharma i will consider having some respect for the law.  Until then i see DC as an abomination that is headed for judgement. I know what the real laws are and abide in them.  
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: stavebuyer on October 02, 2021, 01:50:34 PM
At the moment pallet logs are bringing as much as $.60 bd/ft Doyle. Using a 400ft/cord conversion that's a $240 per cord log cost if you just sold the logs rather than process them. Now I know the blocks/cutoffs etc. aren't marketable in that manner but the "processor" quality poles sure are. Figuring $100+ per cord for processing I doubt fuel the value is worth $350-$400 the stuff needs to bring. Other than "ambiance" buyers it wouldn't sell here for that money as fuel.


Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on October 02, 2021, 02:12:19 PM
Wow.. To hear pallet being higher than switch tie is really something else.  Im gonna have to make some calls.  Its a real tough thing to keep the lumber trees you are growing with a hungry market like that calling. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: barbender on October 02, 2021, 09:13:08 PM
Awe, what does Barge need to worry about price fixing when he has ran everyone else out of town anyways?😂
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: OH logger on October 23, 2021, 07:45:20 AM
That's my issue stave buyer. I'm gettin 60 cents for pallet logs so my firewood pole lot is dang near empty. The other problem is the clearing crews I buy from are doing the same thing.

Also back a few pages you guys were talking about delivering pallets or crates of firewood and placing right where customer wants it. I've looked into that too in the past. A like the Posch wood wrapping system real well but very pricey. Wraps a whole pallet of wood that's thrown in the metal drum instead of stacking. It's then wrapped in stretch plastic netting that's cut down as the customer gets closer to the bottom of the pallet and ultimately discarded when wood is gone. All that needs to be picked up and reused is the pallet itself. There's aNother manufactured advertising in the loggin magazines that is the same kind of system as Posch. Just can't remember the name but it's orange and instead of the metal drum being filled being round it's square like the pallet. Just not sure if the wood being thrown in and not stacked would still stand up nice taking curves stopping and goin on the delivery route. Also thought a Moffit lift on a straight truck would be a good delivery system but I'd want something that's low enough to get in a garage where most customers would want it. Just try not to hit somethin at the customers place!!!
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Corley5 on October 23, 2021, 08:32:07 AM
Would the premium on wood packaged and delivered with these systems be enough to pay for the system ??? ???
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: OH logger on October 23, 2021, 12:34:31 PM
That's the big question. A few years ago I inquired about that Posch system. It was around $18,000  :o  How much can you really get out of a cord or pallet of boutique wood?  That surely depends on your market and marketing. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Raider Bill on October 23, 2021, 01:20:29 PM
$20 half a wheel barrow here picked up. 
Green oak.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: JDowns71 on October 23, 2021, 02:09:07 PM
 Can you label your firewood "Non-GMO, Pesticides Free, Sustainably Cut Earth Friendly" then charge a premium to the city folk?   ;D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on October 23, 2021, 03:58:49 PM
Quote from: JDowns71 on October 23, 2021, 02:09:07 PM
Can you label your firewood "Non-GMO, Pesticides Free, Sustainably Cut Earth Friendly" then charge a premium to the city folk?   ;D
Also can add in that you're a vegan firewood seller. lol
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: OH logger on October 23, 2021, 04:59:10 PM
Free range firewood!!!
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on October 23, 2021, 05:26:22 PM
Dont forget carbon neutral*







*(until burned)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Ianab on October 23, 2021, 06:06:47 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on October 23, 2021, 05:26:22 PM
Dont forget carbon neutral*







*(until burned)
Supply an acorn with each load. That's the Carbon Recapture System*.  




* Patent Pending   ;D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: thecfarm on October 24, 2021, 06:46:00 AM
Don't forget Organic Grown.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Corley5 on October 24, 2021, 08:20:39 AM
I was Sustainable Forestry Initiative (SFI) certified, had to be when I was logging, and tried using that as a marketing ploy for firewood.  Nobody around here cares.  I didn't recertify during the whole Covid thing.  
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: WDH on October 24, 2021, 10:37:03 AM
Gluten free.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: doc henderson on October 24, 2021, 10:54:20 AM
no baterries required!
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on October 24, 2021, 11:19:42 AM
Quote from: Corley5 on October 24, 2021, 08:20:39 AM
I was Sustainable Forestry Initiative (SFI) certified, had to be when I was logging, and tried using that as a marketing ploy for firewood.  Nobody around here cares.  I didn't recertify during the whole Covid thing.  
I hear ya. smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Polish Hammer1 on October 29, 2021, 06:26:36 AM
I'm at 225 a cord hardwood delivered and dumped no stacking and sadly I'm on the higher end of the price around me 210 you pick up 

Northwest Wisconsin 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Upstatewoodchuc on October 29, 2021, 07:35:42 AM
Quote from: Polish Hammer1 on October 29, 2021, 06:26:36 AM
I'm at 225 a cord hardwood delivered and dumped no stacking and sadly I'm on the higher end of the price around me 210 you pick up

Northwest Wisconsin
Geez, thats where I was 10 years ago and it was low at the time. How do you guys put fuel back in the equipment at those prices? I usually make up the bulk of the margin with a high delivery fee...
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mike_belben on October 29, 2021, 10:23:56 AM
try doing it at $150 a cord, but the market wants ricks, and wants it stacked to be sure you measured right. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: barbender on October 29, 2021, 12:07:43 PM
I wish we got the prices you guys do in the Northeast. But then, I think you guys pay a lot more for your wood, too. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on October 29, 2021, 02:41:00 PM
Quote from: Upstatewoodchuc on October 29, 2021, 07:35:42 AM
Quote from: Polish Hammer1 on October 29, 2021, 06:26:36 AM
I’m at 225 a cord hardwood delivered and dumped no stacking and sadly I’m on the higher end of the price around me 210 you pick up

Northwest Wisconsin
Geez, thats where I was 10 years ago and it was low at the time. How do you guys put fuel back in the equipment at those prices? I usually make up the bulk of the margin with a high delivery fee...
You should see people around here, selling softwood cords for 150 and hardwood 200(CDN mind you). I just shake my head, keep working really hard to keep strangers warm and you in return nothing but a worn down back and lost time

Finally started to tick up but not much yet, let’s see how far they take it while everything else sky rockets 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on October 29, 2021, 04:37:29 PM
Never see hardwood firewood for less than $300 a cord here, some as much as $450 around Fredericton. Pulpwood for firewood is not much different than midwestern states I believe. Wood prices off public land keeps private wood prices low here. It's a rigged game in favor of the mills. :D

Softwood or aspen firewood would be a hard sell around here, yet that is mostly what I burn. Never froze yet. If you want any, I sell for $300, you pick up. Bring cash. ;D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on October 29, 2021, 04:46:09 PM
Quote from: SwampDonkey on October 29, 2021, 04:37:29 PM
Never see hardwood firewood for less than $300 a cord here, some as much as $450 around Fredericton. Pulpwood for firewood is not much different than midwestern states I believe. Wood prices off public land keeps private wood prices low here. It's a rigged game in favor of the mills. :D

Softwood or aspen firewood would be a hard sell around here, yet that is mostly what I burn. Never froze yet. ;D
Highest hardwood for sale I have seen is 275 in the city(2.5 hr away)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: stavebuyer on October 29, 2021, 07:00:28 PM
This is the year to demand what it is worth. Let it sit until it rots if it doesn't pay. They are begging for $15+ employees with much easier and safer occupations and no investment in inventory and equipment,  The propane dealer and electric company are passing on the new cost reality; so charge what it is worth.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: OH logger on October 29, 2021, 08:11:11 PM
Propane is around $1.30/gallon here if you prebought which most do. That makes it tough to over charge (charge what's fair) for firewood. To be honest I can't believe I can sell wood as quick as I can 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: SwampDonkey on October 30, 2021, 03:18:50 AM
I did see some adds on Kijiji for $200 to $260 a cord. But nothing that cheap around here with the folks that are in the business. Some of them Kijiji adds are for stuff off someones yard or their garage. Even seen one add for cedar kindling at $10 a wheel barrel load.......what volume is that? How big is the wheel barrel? Can I bring my big wheel barrel? ;D

Had a good laugh at the add of a guy selling his pellets he bought last year. Switching to gas. Some people like that flip of a switch convenience, easier on the back and shoulders. :D :D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on October 30, 2021, 06:51:04 AM
Quote from: stavebuyer on October 29, 2021, 07:00:28 PM
This is the year to demand what it is worth. Let it sit until it rots if it doesn't pay. ...
Couldn't agree more.

Prices you guys are selling for, is it green, seasoned logs or something else?

Prices are suppressed still here too but I am starting to see it creep up, finally. Our prices are still the highest prices in the area. Recently put up our prices to accurately reflect processing costs for time and fuel. Yard prices are $200, $260, $340 for green, seasoned, kiln dried. Delivery is extra now and those price changes weekly on Friday's. Green price going up next week.

Delivered 3 cords the other day. One in the 1ton Chev (70km round trip), the other two in the Sterling (150km round trip). $900. Before heading home we had to fill up both trucks, 5 medium size jerry cans and 2 diesel cans. Fuel came to $500. 3 cords of logs cost $400. Labour hours involved for all processing and delivery, about 20 hours. Where's the money for the labour costs? In the fuel tank. So it balances out, but just barely.

Bagged wood is where its at if you can get your foot in the door with a large retailer and have transport pick it up in the yard. City seller now offering this.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/s-l640.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635591019)
 

$10 seems to be the shelf price. 16x16x16" dimension. Works out to be $1080 for 128 cu ft.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Tacotodd on October 31, 2021, 05:31:30 AM
WOW, jb that's some pricey stuff when it comes to a cord. But so many people will pay for that type of convenience too. Just not anyone on here :-X
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on October 31, 2021, 08:14:43 AM
Remember though, $10 is the shelf price. Retailer typically takes 50%. So that leaves $5 for the producer. Likely producer has to deliver, so take out that cost, plus bag price, extra handling to produce and package smaller pieces. You end up with not much more to your bottom line that if you stuck with doing split cords for home heating market.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Tacotodd on October 31, 2021, 08:49:29 AM
I didn't think about that 50% part being as as high as it is. It "might" be time to find a different place to sell it :P Do some research, the answer to that posed option is ALWAYS out there. If not, charge the retailer more and see how he feels about a hard working person making an honest buck. Maybe they will change their mind. I wouldn't count on it, but "ya don't know if ya don't try".
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: beenthere on October 31, 2021, 03:16:36 PM
Taco

Thinking retailers take on extra items to sell because they have the space and they have the customer traffic who likely isn't shopping specifically for a bundle of firewood (as an example). But the customer is walking by pushing a cart and the firewood just looks warm and cozy so takes a bundle home.
Different from the customer who sees they are short on firewood for the patio firepit or fireplace and wants to find cheaper price. Hits the ads on facebook or Craigslist, etc. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on October 31, 2021, 03:46:12 PM
Quote from: Tacotodd on October 31, 2021, 08:49:29 AM
I didn't think about that 50% part being as as high as it is. It "might" be time to find a different place to sell it :P Do some research, the answer to that posed option is ALWAYS out there. If not, charge the retailer more and see how he feels about a hard working person making an honest buck. Maybe they will change their mind. I wouldn't count on it, but "ya don't know if ya don't try".
It's why I don't currently supply retail any more. We tried it but upon finessing the numbers and told the retailer we're going to need more, they opted out. No problem. I'd rather do nothing, than work for nothing, if you get what I mean. Plenty of other things to do.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: GRANITEstateMP on October 31, 2021, 07:40:20 PM
bumped my prices up to $265 a cord (128 Cu/ft, green, processor split, delivered within 15 miles, most are within 6).  Fuel went up, bar oil went up, can't find RotellaT 15-40 but when ya do it went up, grocery bill to keep me going went up...maybe I didn't go up enough :(

In Rockingham county NH
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on October 31, 2021, 08:56:39 PM
Quote from: GRANITEstateMP on October 31, 2021, 07:40:20 PM
bumped my prices up to $265 a cord (128 Cu/ft, green, processor split, delivered within 15 miles, most are within 6).  Fuel went up, bar oil went up, can't find RotellaT 15-40 but when ya do it went up, grocery bill to keep me going went up...maybe I didn't go up enough :(

In Rockingham county NH
Retail price is all relative to your costs. If you are happy with it, so be it. Otherwise, put it up again. Fuel prices go up and down every week, no reason why firewood can't do the same.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: HemlockKing on November 01, 2021, 02:14:50 AM
Quote from: GRANITEstateMP on October 31, 2021, 07:40:20 PM
bumped my prices up to $265 a cord (128 Cu/ft, green, processor split, delivered within 15 miles, most are within 6).  Fuel went up, bar oil went up, can't find RotellaT 15-40 but when ya do it went up, grocery bill to keep me going went up...maybe I didn't go up enough :(

In Rockingham county NH
Motor oil prices went from roughly 32-50$ CDN now my 5L jug of oil is 69 + 15% tax. *DanG near a hundred dollars just for a jug of oil
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Old Greenhorn on November 01, 2021, 06:58:40 AM
Most of the guys here are creeping up their prices. The suppliers I know do firewood as a small part of their business as fill in work to get their crews working when the weather closes them in or other scheduling issues pop up. It's a side product because few can see a way to make it a full time deal. The consumers refuse the get educated. My neighbor across the road is a prime example. AN otherwise nice an intelligent guy, I have tried on several occasions to explain how the business works and how to get the best results and price for himself. Pne supplier he has used also explained it to him a few times. Very simple: Place your order in March/April for your wood to be delivered through the spring/summer as available. Some sellers offer a price break on such deals because they cut and split right into the truck and drop it off and save labor. But he never gets it and every year it's the same thing. He orders when he is out and cannot understand why it takes so long to arrive. SO this year after 3 reminders from my son (I stopped reminding him back in June) he finally ordered on 10/1, just one cord. He starts giving my son a hard time because he is having a party and his wood is not there yet even though he was told he was on the list and this is a bad time to place an order, it would take some weeks if he could get it at all. Then he says 'If it's not there by saturday, I will cancel the order and look elsewhere'.  :D My son was debating dropping him as a client after he told him off and asked me for advice. I just said 'let it play out, don't shoot yourself in the foot.' So the wood does become available on Saturday morning and gets delivered. Crisis averted, but this fella just doesn't get it. He is the amazon generation and is miffed that he can't just order firewood on his phone with 2 or 3 clicks. He seems to refuse to understand or even try.
 My friend Bill does FW and this year he is drawing the line. Anybody who wants wood now is paying $285/cord just dropped. If they want to order in late winter for the following year to be delivered as available, he will cut them a big break so that he can split right into the truck and deliver direct, then fill the truck again. Otherwise, it's $285. Almost nobody around here is so low on steady work that they are running up big dryine piles through the spring and summer, they are blowing and going on real money work and the firewood logs piles just keep growing. Spike will know  better, but there are very few full blown processors in our corner of the county that run like Barge does. The market won't support it with all the flaky buyers ordering one cord in the fall and each seeming to want different lengths. Most of these folks, in my opinion, refuse to learn that firewood is not a simple commodity like milk and bread, it is a cultural thing for those that burn and heat as part of their lifestyle for generations. The market is diluted with buyers that don't understand it. The killer for me is that they would get lower prices and better service if they just understood and worked within the market requirements, but they seem bent on changing the rules to suit their whims, which we all know will not happen.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on November 01, 2021, 08:02:28 AM
Good stuff Tom. There is only one processor guy I can think of that does firewood exclusively, and he's out between Ellenville and Wurtsboro. He also does most of the bagged wood that you see in the stores around here. Then there's John up in MT Tremper that only does firewood, and year round, but no processor. Some guys do a LOT of wood when they get going, but it's not the only thing they do. In a way, a lot of sellers contribute to the "wait til it's cold" mentality, because their other work is often way more profitable than firewood. As long as they are busy with those jobs, many don't want to be bothered with doing firewood. It's like a feedback loop, the sellers are busy, buyers don't want the wood early, then it all blows up in the Fall. :)

Interesting point on the cultural factor in wood burning. One change that's taking place though is fewer people are willing or capable of doing their own wood. That process is a large component of that culture for guys like us. But it's not just wood, these "new residents", can't or won't do anything for themselves.

@jimbarry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10037) Do you factor in how much product/profit is on the truck into your delivery costs? Big difference in being on the road for an hour to deliver two cords vs making the same trip for a face cord. Delivery, or pick up and delivery for my shop is an easy way to lose profitability. It really needs to be thought of as an additional fee, for an additional service, that should generate an additional profit. Not just make sure that costs are covered, because one could be doing something profitable as opposed to riding in the truck listening to the radio. In our case picking up and then returning a unit for service means we are covering that distance FOUR times. Can't do that if we aren't making money. One wood seller here has a truck that holds an honest 2 cords, and he won't deliver less than that. Says it's not worth his time to run a cord at a time, which is why he bought the truck to begin with.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on November 01, 2021, 05:36:47 PM
Quote from: Spike60 on November 01, 2021, 08:02:28 AM
@jimbarry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10037) Do you factor in how much product/profit is on the truck into your delivery costs? Big difference in being on the road for an hour to deliver two cords vs making the same trip for a face cord. Delivery, or pick up and delivery for my shop is an easy way to lose profitability. It really needs to be thought of as an additional fee, for an additional service, that should generate an additional profit. Not just make sure that costs are covered, because one could be doing something profitable as opposed to riding in the truck listening to the radio. In our case picking up and then returning a unit for service means we are covering that distance FOUR times. Can't do that if we aren't making money. One wood seller here has a truck that holds an honest 2 cords, and he won't deliver less than that. Says it's not worth his time to run a cord at a time, which is why he bought the truck to begin with.
Profit is a separate line item in the spreadsheet for calculating prices, factors into the price of the firewood. Delivery price is a separate calculation altogether. We have two trucks, a one ton Silverado dump body that holds a true cord tossed in (or 1.5 stacked in).  The other is a Sterling Acterra 7500 with a custom made box on the dump body, it hold up to 2.5 cord tossed in or 3 cord stacked in. 
So, quantity on order determines which truck to use, each have their own expense ratio. One cord, one ton truck. 2-3 cord, Sterling truck. 
Delivery costs is a spreadsheet line item that is the sum total of:
+ rolling costs ('Rolling cost = expenses over last 12 months/ kilometres driven in same period')
+ future costs ('Future costs = oil changes, tires replacement')
+ price of fuel per litre (changes weekly, each fill up we track kms driven to monitor truck's consumption) 
+ kilometres driven (the location and back
+ how many workers required (so its a time based calculation x hourly wage, some locations require spotter or traffic control to get in and out of drop zone).
Examples of delivery cost only:
1 cord (128 cu ft) delivered 35km, delivery costs is currently $72.86.
2-3 cord  delivered 35km, delivery costs is $83.08. (We try to convince customers to purchase more than one cord if they have the room.)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: OH logger on November 01, 2021, 09:40:01 PM
My truck holds 3 loose cords and I won't deliver less than a full load. If you want less than 3 cord you'll need to pick up at my place 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on November 12, 2021, 07:50:23 AM
This thread, alnog with the "no orders" thread are renacted every few days in the store. I'm sure it will get going today with the rain. Lotta guys stop in on rainy days to grab supplies, and since it's raining they usually tend to hang out for a while. Too bad you guys aren't closer; you'd be welcome to join us. :)

Funny how in the last couple weeks, the themes of the 2 threads have converged. Prices are definitely jumping up. $300 a cord now being the norm. $400 for truly seasond wood. There's one exception from Woodstock, (naturally), with one guy riding around with "$200 a cord" on the side of his truck. Dude thinks he's outsmarting everybody. LOL

And with it getting cold enough for people to finally decide to take their wood, those customers have created a new problem. With all of that wood going out all at once, they've sucked the systen dry faster than it can sustain itself, and it needs time to recover.  Guys have blown through their log piles faster than the loggers can resupply them.

One really large operation in Prattsville has run through an enormous pile of logs and has a sign up "No longer taking orders; waiting on log deliveries". Many guys are going the "no new customers" route. And low grade timber is still paying pretty good at the mills, which means fewer logs get sorted into the firewood pile.

The lingering question remains; how many of these folks scrambling for wood will learn and change their habits? My guess will be some, with most unable to look in the mirror and realize they are part of the problem.

If any of you guys stop in today, bring coffee. :)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Old Greenhorn on November 12, 2021, 08:40:56 AM
Quote from: Spike60 on November 12, 2021, 07:50:23 AM...

Funny how in the last couple weeks, the themes of the 2 threads have converged. Prices are definitely jumping up. $300 a cord now being the norm. $400 for truly seasond wood. There's one exception from Woodstock, (naturally), with one guy riding around with "$200 a cord" on the side of his truck. Dude thinks he's outsmarting everybody. LOL

And with it getting cold enough for people to finally decide to take their wood, those customers have created a new problem. With all of that wood going out all at once, they've sucked the systen dry faster than it can sustain itself, and it needs time to recover.  Guys have blown through their log piles faster than the loggers can resupply them.

One really large operation in Prattsville has run through an enormous pile of logs and has a sign up "No longer taking orders; waiting on log deliveries". Many guys are going the "no new customers" route. And low grade timber is still paying pretty good at the mills, which means fewer logs get sorted into the firewood pile.

The lingering question remains; how many of these folks scrambling for wood will learn and change their habits? My guess will be some, with most unable to look in the mirror and realize they are part of the problem.

If any of you guys stop in today, bring coffee. :)
That fella in in W'stock surprises me, he must be stupid hungry. That's where the big dollar deliveries go. He is outsmarting himself for sure, unless he is selling short cords of junk.
 I got a call from a land improvement client of mine yesterday who asked if I could come help him make his deadfall trees into firewood. Apparently he just bought a couple of cords from a local supplier he had been using for a few years now who bills himself as selling only the best, clean dry wood in measured cords. He charges a premium and I think is the highest in town, but it is clean and he tumbles his wood.  Well anyway, this client says the wood he got is kind of green and he wants to cut, split, and stack all his long down dead stuff. I am certain you know the supplier, he thinks he is the best around.
 Yeah, it's only gonna get worse. The guys that have wood will get that premium in the next 8 weeks or so. 
 I got too much rainy day work to do, plus a chiro visit today to stop in, but just for future reference, how do you and Warren take your coffee? The larger question is, why don't you guys have a coffee pot in the shop? I wouldn't work in a shop without one. :D ;D
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Tacotodd on November 12, 2021, 09:31:55 AM
Bob, I don't think that "I" could possibly send you coffee up there in time, IF you expect to get it TODAY :D ;D

After all, NY is quite some distance from AR.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: KEC on November 12, 2021, 12:02:46 PM
I have to wonder if the guy with the sign that says $ 200.00 a "cord" is talking about a face cord (?).
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Beau Woodworks on November 12, 2021, 01:19:25 PM
Thought I would chip in from across the pond. 

Our current prices are per loose cubic meter which is 35 cubic feet. No idea of the conversion from a stacked cord to a loose cubic meter though.

1 cube meter £120
2 cubic meters £220

That's for hardwood logs delivered. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jmur1 on November 12, 2021, 01:30:29 PM
When I sold my 1st loose 16" box 4'x8'x4' I was schooled by my customer that it stacked nearly exactly to 2/3 of a cord.  (It was just nicely heaping)
so that converts as 3.625 m² (actual full cord) to about 2.417 m² of stacked wood after being a loose equivalent cord.

jmur1
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on November 13, 2021, 05:52:11 AM
Quote from: Spike60 on November 12, 2021, 07:50:23 AM
... Too bad you guys aren't closer; you'd be welcome to join us. :).
Install a large flat screen tv in your store and set up a ForestryForum live streaming event :)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on November 13, 2021, 06:03:02 AM
Quote from: Beau Woodworks on November 12, 2021, 01:19:25 PM
Thought I would chip in from across the pond.

Our current prices are per loose cubic meter which is 35 cubic feet. No idea of the conversion from a stacked cord to a loose cubic meter though.

1 cube meter £120
2 cubic meters £220

That's for hardwood logs delivered.
It's the same BeauWoodworks.
Regarding loose pile measuring, it depends on what a seller defines as a loose pile cord. General consensus is 180 cu ft, which converts to 5.09 cu metres. That means a loose 35.36 cu ft is equal to a loose 1 cu metre. Like you said.
A stacked 128 cu ft (one cord) converts to a stacked 3.62 cu metre. That means a stacked 35.36 cu ft is equal to a stacked 1 cu metre.

Math based on 6am calculations on 1/2 cup of coffee :)
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on November 14, 2021, 07:05:29 AM
Tom; used to have a pot in the shop. Problem was we'd be hitting it all day. Often along with some just as unecessary snacks. Good coffee just across the road at the gas station, and it stays under control.

More landscapers than wood guys stopped in on the rainy day. Those guys are fighting a quickly closing window to get clean ups done and the weather isn't helping.

Couple "fixed amount" wood sellers stopped in. Dudes that sell their planned 30-40 cords and that's it. Both are done but still getting calls, many from people who wanted to wait. But call of the week honors have to go to one guy who got a call from his son. Kid was nudged into calling by his father in law wanting 2 cords of seasoned wood. Apparently the same 2 cords he had been talking about all summer. Kid knows the drill but he's stuck in the middle, plus he knew his Dad would get a good laugh. Best part is they are all getting together for Thanksgiving because they now share a new grand kid. And my buddy is definitely the type to get a few digs in. LOL
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: brianJ on June 10, 2022, 04:00:32 PM
Anyone got hope that firewood prices will go up and stay up?    I bet it dont here in Syracuse since lots of dead ash still standing everywhere.  
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mudfarmer on June 10, 2022, 06:28:49 PM
Hard to get them up, here. Still old farmers, Mennonite, Amish selling for peanuts. Wish I could get those down state prices! Will hope along with you though
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: GRANITEstateMP on June 10, 2022, 09:49:24 PM
Prices of everything else has gone up, so haven't my wood prices. Quoted, and selling green cords delivered within 10miles, $275
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Mapleman on June 11, 2022, 06:16:13 AM
I'm at 255 a cord, green, delivered locally.  Up from 240 last year.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: breederman on June 11, 2022, 06:38:31 AM
I just got a message from my guy that his price on log length was going up soon to cover fuel etc. I didn't even ask the current price, just told him to bring a load when he is close.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: jimbarry on June 11, 2022, 01:34:29 PM
Quote from: Mapleman on June 11, 2022, 06:16:13 AM
I'm at 255 a cord, green, delivered locally.  Up from 240 last year.
With conversion to USD, we're selling for US$225 a cord, green with local delivery within 20 miles and not one phone call all year. Reason likely being others are selling for US$175-$195 delivered. Fuel prices doubled since last year. I don't know how they are operating each year like that.
We do sell seasoned for USD$235 and have a few customers, but it's definitely not steady work.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Al_Smith on June 11, 2022, 04:39:19 PM
I haven't sold it in years .I will however say I don't get a cord done as fast as I used to .My once two cords a day has dropped off to maybe a half cord and then not every day .It's a lot of work you know .
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Corley5 on June 11, 2022, 09:42:00 PM
I'm at $85 a face cord or $255 a standard cord if you prefer ;) :)  and selling wood every day.  I'm not keeping as many of those dollars in my pocket as I did a very short while ago.  I got cut by another producer on 10 and 20 face cord orders in the same neighborhood.  He's going to sell it to them for $70 a face/$210 a standard cord.  More power to him and good for the consumers 8) 8)  According to my long standing formula I should be closer to $90/$270 as my selling point.  
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: barbender on June 11, 2022, 10:10:33 PM
Yep, let him work himself out of business🤷‍♂️
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: rjwoelk on June 11, 2022, 11:30:13 PM
Our supplier is 4 hrs 1 way from us, by the time its all said and done, we are getting $ 230 for a 1/3 cord vented bag, this includes bag cost, taxes.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Jimpa on June 12, 2022, 06:44:35 AM
Firewood is like money in the bank, hang on to it until January and it will be seasoned and the price will be significantly higher with very little competition. I don't even want to advertise firewood until January 1st. Working that hard plus the cost of equipment required demands a higher price. The guys that give it away are all out if wood at the first of the year. I try to sell small lots of wood for a reasonable price to my customers and myself.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: GRANITEstateMP on June 12, 2022, 07:20:46 AM
I worked up and delivered 2 cord @ $265ea yesterday (quoted them 3 weeks ago for that price), and have 2 more to do today, then all my quoted cords, except a neighbor, are $275.  In the end, I'm charging more and making the same, maybe a bit less than last year, my price is up, but so isn't every cost I have.  I don't advertise, and I'm not really taking on new customers.  
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: B.C.C. Lapp on June 12, 2022, 07:59:58 AM
I know what I'm charging in my campfire wood racks. That's easy.   But I'm still unsure about my price for delivered cords or pickup loads this year. I really don't start pushing those till around Oct.   I need to be averaging $240 a cord no matter what form its sold in.  That's what I need to average out to.    Not sure I can get that when there are guys still selling $200 cords. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Bncyom33 on June 12, 2022, 08:11:03 AM
I have to give credit to the guys who process cordwood for a living. I live up in the Northeast and burn primarily for heat. I can't really afford to buy wood by the cord so I will get a picker load every year and a half. I know the amount of time and energy I put into processing it I don't personally think that one cord of wood is sitting at a fair price to begin with. Meaning it should be more. Then to have to pay somebody for labor to help on top of all the other expenses that go into it I don't know how you guys do it. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: sum1 on June 14, 2022, 11:24:16 PM
I buy most of my logs for $160-200/cord and process/sell split wood $275 for softwood and $400-425 for hardwood. Even at these prices I can't quit my day job or hire help. hoping to move 600-800 full cord this year just me and the gf.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: B.C.C. Lapp on June 15, 2022, 07:57:35 AM
600 to 800 cords? Holy smokes thats a lot of wood.    Where are you operating Sum?
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on June 16, 2022, 07:28:06 AM
How about this price: My folks got their "lock in" price for heating oil yesterday. Last year it was $2.39; this year it is $5.49. That's nuts, but prices like that for conventional fuels, (guessing propane will be similar) will put pressure on the firewood market. Both in price and supply.

"Firewood John" was in yesterday buying supplies and he says his orders are going crazy for this early in the year. His cost for log length is going up, so that has to be passed on. But he's more worried about a shortage and doesn't think he's going to be able to keep up with demand. He's shrinking his delivery radius and not taking new customers.

Don't see how anyone can hold to firewood prices from 10 years ago, but there are still "beer money" sellers out there who try to do that.   
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: barbender on June 16, 2022, 10:07:25 AM
Sum1 I honestly can't see how you are moving 600-800 cords a year and having a job too. That's around 12-15 cords a week?🤔
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: mudfarmer on June 16, 2022, 12:03:18 PM
Spike I am small time but selling at $225-$240 green competing with people selling at $150. Having an army of kids that don't go to school sure helps some folks. I don't think it is for beer money  :D

I would like to buy every stick they can make and then resell but have heard the quality is poor or wildly variable. All I can do is make a good product and not fight for the kind of customer that would buy junk for cheap. 

A big outfit asked about log length and said it is getting hard to keep up with orders, demand is through the roof.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: hedgerow on June 17, 2022, 12:05:47 PM
Quote from: Spike60 on June 16, 2022, 07:28:06 AM
How about this price: My folks got their "lock in" price for heating oil yesterday. Last year it was $2.39; this year it is $5.49. That's nuts, but prices like that for conventional fuels, (guessing propane will be similar)

Last month we got news letter for our Farmers Cooperative. They are very large. You could lock in LP for $1.95 for full paid gallons or for $2.01 for .20 cent down payment. Price was only good to June 15. I was surprised at the price as I paid $2.50 last fall to have my tank topped off. I did get a .25 discount for cash. I don't plan on using any more than my clothes drier takes as long as the Garn doesn't start leaking. No fuel oil in my area its LP, natural and electric. Where I grew up my folks sold a lot of number one fuel for heating and we sold LP too. LP has taken that area over too. 
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: beenthere on June 17, 2022, 04:16:43 PM
Not having location in profile, we don't know where hedgerow speaketh from .   Easy to click on user name and update the profile with some location info. 
thanks
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Spike60 on June 18, 2022, 05:25:05 AM
mudfarmer; I talked with one of the log length suppliers yesterday. Working against the firewood side of the equation is that timber prices are pretty good right now. Hard maple, red oak, and he's in some clear, bug free ash right now. Makes a difference when sorting as anything that can be graded as timber is obviously worth more than in the firewood pile. Still runs firewood every evening though to his regulars.

Some guys are also selling 2 grades of firewood logs. If you gotta have nice staight logs for a processor, you're going to pay a little more for it. If you're working with chainsaws and can deal with some ugly stuff, you can get a deal.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: woodroe on June 18, 2022, 06:54:48 AM
Saw an ad on CL nearby, $275 a cord for green cut slit delivered, $350 for seasoned .
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: Al_Smith on June 19, 2022, 09:06:46 AM
I have to be a little amused no longer selling the stuff anymore .That was decades ago during another so called "energy crisis " and a resurgence of wood burning .I only cut my own which I might add now  have the machinery to make it easier than in those days I wore a younger mans clothes .Splitting as all done  with a five pound axe in those days .
These days I have nothing to prove as far as making money and work at my own pace only gathering 1/2 a cord maybe 3 times a week .I certainly don't need to it's just I have a abundance of it all within 500 feet of the stacks .
With the EAB thing taking a swath 20 feet wide and 250 feet long I will have the 4-5 cords I need just from the dead fall and some snags on maybe 60 feet .That section of woods is over 600 feet deep .At that rate it will take me 5-6 or more  years to get through it .The standing dead I'll get to eventually because they won't stand forever .It's mostly ash which is still hard as a rock and dry as a bone .Some of the best .6 to 10 inches ,only needs halved or quartered and only requires a small saw . I will say though on rock hard stuff on the ground  even with Stihl RS chain it does requires more use of the file .However I am rather good at it so its not a big deal .  
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: rjwoelk on June 22, 2022, 12:16:26 AM
We just got notice that our fuel surcharge will be going up to 38% on the wood side and 28% on the delivery side.
That makes for a price list announcement on the surcharge,  and will put our price at $250 per 1/3 cord picked up in the yard. No  complaint yet. Most folks around here are using it for back yard fires or at the lake.
I suspect they spend that in booze in a weekend, while ripping about on a $30,000 or more boat.
Title: Re: Firewood prices
Post by: B.C.C. Lapp on June 22, 2022, 07:33:38 PM
Quote from: rjwoelk on June 22, 2022, 12:16:26 AM. No  complaint yet. Most folks around here are using it for back yard fires or at the lake.
I suspect they spend that in booze in a weekend, while ripping about on a $30,000 or more boat.
Gotta love the rich people.  They buy what we produce.   Hope their pockets are deep and wide.