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Kinetic splitters and production

Started by Upstatewoodchuc, March 09, 2021, 10:17:08 AM

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mike_belben

I already have my hillbilly limb cutting station for stuff not needing split.. which is atleast 50% of the fiber that TSI produces.  Its the fastest possible way to process limbs with mininal human effort and only a saw.. Just the right balance of very cheap, pretty easy, pretty fast. i dont want to run limbs through a processor and be burning fuel, waiting on a pusher cycle for nothing with stuff thats just going around a knife.







Something like this.   Probably can figure a way to do it with just 2 conveyors once the site work is finished and processor built to really stare at. Hopefully sub 3 years for that station to be constructed and under a high tin roof.


I forgot to include my old conventional vert/horiz 5" thirteen horse splitter parked between the reject pile and the corner of a conveyor so that whatever gets kicked out of the processor lands next to the conventional and tossed back into the conveyor stream by hand when there is enough to run a batch.
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

 better layout for loader and forklift access. Dont wanna back into opposing decks. 



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Al_Smith

I've seen vid clips of a couple of young guys looked to be under 25 feeding kinetic splitters .Big  husky dudes right off the farm who could  eat  hay still the bale tied with wire .Doesn't take them long to spit a cord .Fast forward 30 plus years and see how well they do working by themselves .If I were a betting man  I'd wager not nearly as fast .
Now I'm no spring chicken and 73 years old .I can get a cord cord and a half a day if it were chunked up .Split and stacked at not near at break neck speed and still relax on my patio under an umbrella out of the hot sun and enjoy a malt beverage or three and not kill myself .It's not all about cycle time .Steady pace wins the race .

Upstatewoodchuc

Well to keep everyone updated, I stumbled into a 40 ton flipable splitter at TSC for 1799 due to a dented gas tank, has a 25gpm pump and 5 inch ram with a 9.5 second cycle time. I've decided this plus my dieder with a 4 way is the best way to tackle this year and then go big next season, alot of the stuff inbetween just doesn't make sense. And the way I see it after watching craigslist and marketplace for the last year, I could run the pics out of this splitter and sell it for almost what I paid in a year or two, people want 900 for 20 year old 25 ton splitters here. I did get to use the new 40 ton for an afternoon and I sat on a block of wood next to it flipped vertical and rolled everything to it and when stuff was more than a step away I backed the splitter and my tractor farther into the pile, the thing splits as fast as I could feed it and my back felt great!
Current collection: Husky 3120xp,  372xp, 365, husky 55, homelite xl12. Michigan 85 wheel loader, Ford 8n with loader and forks. Farmall super C, 1988 international dump truck, John Deere 440ICD dozer, 19ft equipment trailer, 40 ton TSC splitter, modified dieder splitter with 4 way.

brianJ

Quote from: Upstatewoodchuc on March 15, 2021, 11:56:34 AM
Well to keep everyone updated, I stumbled into a 40 ton flipable splitter at TSC for 1799 due to a dented gas tank, has a 25gpm pump and 5 inch ram with a 9.5 second cycle time. I've decided this plus my dieder with a 4 way is the best way to tackle this year and then go big next season, alot of the stuff inbetween just doesn't make sense. And the way I see it after watching craigslist and marketplace for the last year, I could run the pics out of this splitter and sell it for almost what I paid in a year or two, people want 900 for 20 year old 25 ton splitters here. I did get to use the new 40 ton for an afternoon and I sat on a block of wood next to it flipped vertical and rolled everything to it and when stuff was more than a step away I backed the splitter and my tractor farther into the pile, the thing splits as fast as I could feed it and my back felt great!
This is what I have been thinking but did not want to rain on your parade.    Firewood is nothing more than a material handling problem.   Other than a processor with conveyors, the way to get efficiency is to set up a layout with a minimum of handling.   I get blocked wood into a bucket them have the bucket one step from the splitter and the splitter is close enough to throw pieces onto the split pile.   When I am cutting tops I will cut small branches that don't need splitting until I have a bucket full.   Sometimes takes 2 or three tops.   That bucket full dumps directly onto the pile.    Sometimes I arrange a delivery & split directly into my pickup rather than tossing on the pile.

Al_Smith

Not to be a doubting Thomas but to be more accurate a 5" cylinder on a 3000 PSI system which is usually set at 2750 is closer to 27-28  tons, not 40 tons .I don't why those manufactures insist on inaccuracies but most do . That said most likely using a 5" over a 4" cylinder is it doesn't put the strain on the system which would generate less heat and heat is what causes failure over time .IMO way too much interest in cycle time on these things .Usually unless you are 24-26 years old the splitter will out run you .It doesn't get tired but you will .

Upstatewoodchuc

From what I can tell this system is 3800 psi, 5" cylinder and 25gpm pump, I think the 40 to might be correct because I've been busting crotches with it and not much slows it down, I'd say it has 2-3x's the splitting power of my old hopped up dieder and it cycles quick. That being said I totally understand your comment because most of the high tonnage consumer splitters have low psi and crappy pumps that make slow cycle times
Current collection: Husky 3120xp,  372xp, 365, husky 55, homelite xl12. Michigan 85 wheel loader, Ford 8n with loader and forks. Farmall super C, 1988 international dump truck, John Deere 440ICD dozer, 19ft equipment trailer, 40 ton TSC splitter, modified dieder splitter with 4 way.

mike_belben

I doubt many people know who that is these days AL.  ;)
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Al_Smith

Another thing .Because I worked 29 years in an auto engine plant although did not do hydraulics systems I had to be familiar of how they work .I have in my library of books  among other things the design manual published by Parker-Hannifin .Interesting enough in the charts it shows using cylinders on a system pressures far below what they are designed for .By doing so the life expectancy of the systems far exceed running at full pressure often by a factor of ten or more .
For example the 5" cylinder on my home built is a P-H super duty cylinder with a 4500 PSI rating but while in service only had about 800 PSI .
It would be unusual to find many systems that use higher pressures than 3000 PSI and those would be for something out of the ordinary .BTW I can't even lift that large cylinder any more because it's over 200 pounds .I was a lot younger and stronger when I built that thing .
As far as ratings take a look see at what Timber Wolf rates their splitters .Unless it's changed they rate the 5" models at an honest 29 ton rating and the 4" at 19 tons .Just my observation ,call them whatever you want . :)

Al_Smith

You could go on about splitter designs until the cows come home with different view points .I'll give one example.
My bud who owns a tree service has an older tip up  TSC model with a 4" and an 8 HP Briggs running wide open which is faster than my home built .However his cylinder gets hot enough to fry an egg on .Mine using an 11 HP Briggs at 2/3 throttle with a 5" doesn't over heat and the transfer from low pressure to high  pressure is set at 900 and it seldom shifts .Plus it doesn't blow your ears out listening to that engine screaming away and that alone is worth something .

Upstatewoodchuc

I agree, technique and process are the most important, after running these two splitters i think a good conveyer would be the next best addition for upping production versus adding a third commercial splitter such as a box wedge.
Current collection: Husky 3120xp,  372xp, 365, husky 55, homelite xl12. Michigan 85 wheel loader, Ford 8n with loader and forks. Farmall super C, 1988 international dump truck, John Deere 440ICD dozer, 19ft equipment trailer, 40 ton TSC splitter, modified dieder splitter with 4 way.

Al_Smith

The idea is splitting the firewood to a usable size .An actual wide pattern splitting axe works very well and a young strong guy can out run a hydraulic splitter--but the splitter doesn't tire  out .Doesn't need a coffee break, smoke break or beer break .Just needs some fuel from time to time .In my "golden years " I've refrained from swinging an axe as much as I can .Something being said about working smarter rather than harder.. 8)

mike_belben

I have come to conclude that work and exercise are horses of a different color that fool us into thinking theyre the same.  Proper exercise [along with diet and rest] is the key to youth.  

Work pretends to be exercise but it doesnt care if it kills you.. Only that the work gets done.  No one is gonna tell you to curl 2500 reps, because that just ruins a joint. 

But the wood pile or the tobacco field or whatever will say i need 3000 reps, and im good exercise.  But its a liar.  Carpal tunnel, tennis elbow, tendonitis, lumbar degenerative disc disease, rotator cuffs, AC arthritis.. Knee, hip and foot problems.    


Thats what a splitting maul really offers long term.  Some will get a worse deal that others.  
Praise The Lord

Gere Flewelling

My son and I purchased the largest Super Split last year.  I had planned to purchase a box splitter, but the expense was just too great.  The Super Split was cheap $$ in comparison.  I purchase the large table and added a folding extension that tapered at the end to match up with our wood conveyor.  We cut up log length for fire wood and slabs for camp fire wood.  That little machine would run all day on a tank of gas, never ran out of power, and if it wouldn't split it it would cut it.  We went from a 2' homemade hydraulic and a 4' hydraulic splitter with hydraulic tables to this machine.  If we had big stuff we would put it in the tractor bucket and bring it up table level or use a homemade TPH lifting boom with a hand winch and tongs to lift them up onto the super split.  The table is designed to keep most big chunks on the table.  They big ones you don't split in half, you take pie sized pieces out of them till they get small.  The speed of splitting normal sized wood 16" and down is 
unbelievable, and it is pretty quick with larger ones as well.  There is very little waste that comes off the wood compared to box type splitters or wood processors with the multi wedges.  And who would ever wasting time splitting slabs into kindling?  The Super Split doesn't care.  It sips gas and runs them through faster than you can feed it, making perfect campfire wood.  A great investment in my opinion.  Did I mention I fit in the "old" category and have back issues.  You still have to use common sense to keep from getting hurt.  That splitter paid for itself in one year.  It will take many years with the box splitters.  Not that I wouldn't love to have one.  Great invention, wish I had thought of it.
Old 🚒 Fireman and Snow Cat Repairman (retired)
Matthew 6:3-4

Upstatewoodchuc

Quote from: Gere Flewelling on March 22, 2021, 04:46:08 PM
My son and I purchased the largest Super Split last year.  I had planned to purchase a box splitter, but the expense was just too great.  The Super Split was cheap $$ in comparison.  I purchase the large table and added a folding extension that tapered at the end to match up with our wood conveyor.  We cut up log length for fire wood and slabs for camp fire wood.  That little machine would run all day on a tank of gas, never ran out of power, and if it wouldn't split it it would cut it.  We went from a 2' homemade hydraulic and a 4' hydraulic splitter with hydraulic tables to this machine.  If we had big stuff we would put it in the tractor bucket and bring it up table level or use a homemade TPH lifting boom with a hand winch and tongs to lift them up onto the super split.  The table is designed to keep most big chunks on the table.  They big ones you don't split in half, you take pie sized pieces out of them till they get small.  The speed of splitting normal sized wood 16" and down is
unbelievable, and it is pretty quick with larger ones as well.  There is very little waste that comes off the wood compared to box type splitters or wood processors with the multi wedges.  And who would ever wasting time splitting slabs into kindling?  The Super Split doesn't care.  It sips gas and runs them through faster than you can feed it, making perfect campfire wood.  A great investment in my opinion.  Did I mention I fit in the "old" category and have back issues.  You still have to use common sense to keep from getting hurt.  That splitter paid for itself in one year.  It will take many years with the box splitters.  Not that I wouldn't love to have one.  Great invention, wish I had thought of it.
 
Thank you very much for the insight! After all these years im still learning everyday, and im almost thinking that adding a super split and a conveyer to the mix next year would be the ticket. The 40 ton flipable splitter I ended up buying gets the muscle work out of quartering the big guys and then the quarters get thrown to the guy with the 4 way wedge on the smaller splitter, but there definitely seems to be room for a kinetic in the process. 
Current collection: Husky 3120xp,  372xp, 365, husky 55, homelite xl12. Michigan 85 wheel loader, Ford 8n with loader and forks. Farmall super C, 1988 international dump truck, John Deere 440ICD dozer, 19ft equipment trailer, 40 ton TSC splitter, modified dieder splitter with 4 way.

stavebuyer

Quote from: Gere Flewelling on March 22, 2021, 04:46:08 PM
My son and I purchased the largest Super Split last year.  I had planned to purchase a box splitter, but the expense was just too great.  The Super Split was cheap $$ in comparison.  I purchase the large table and added a folding extension that tapered at the end to match up with our wood conveyor.  We cut up log length for fire wood and slabs for camp fire wood.  That little machine would run all day on a tank of gas, never ran out of power, and if it wouldn't split it it would cut it.  We went from a 2' homemade hydraulic and a 4' hydraulic splitter with hydraulic tables to this machine.  If we had big stuff we would put it in the tractor bucket and bring it up table level or use a homemade TPH lifting boom with a hand winch and tongs to lift them up onto the super split.  The table is designed to keep most big chunks on the table.  They big ones you don't split in half, you take pie sized pieces out of them till they get small.  The speed of splitting normal sized wood 16" and down is
unbelievable, and it is pretty quick with larger ones as well.  There is very little waste that comes off the wood compared to box type splitters or wood processors with the multi wedges.  And who would ever wasting time splitting slabs into kindling?  The Super Split doesn't care.  It sips gas and runs them through faster than you can feed it, making perfect campfire wood.  A great investment in my opinion.  Did I mention I fit in the "old" category and have back issues.  You still have to use common sense to keep from getting hurt.  That splitter paid for itself in one year.  It will take many years with the box splitters.  Not that I wouldn't love to have one.  Great invention, wish I had thought of it.
Very little waste generated with the Super Split. Running a box or multi-wing wedge  I would generate a pickup load a day of waste. With the kinetic, that material stays in the sale pile. One of the issues with the multi-wedge common to any make or style machine is that the feedstock never "matches". The knot is always in the wrong spot, the diameter is two inches bigger or smaller than needed to make into make 4 or six uniform splits. So you end up with a high percentage of wood that is larger than you want or even worse you have to split again into pieces that then are really too small. Kinetic wood is more uniform and is easier sell at premium price to the upscale crowd who pay for such things. 

I agree with Upstatewoodchuc on reducing the big blocks into quarters before hoisting them up. I personally like the machine mounted(skid steer or 3pt tractor) for that task but the vertical option works as does noodling with a saw. I will say if you do follow up with the Super Split next season it will likely become your favorite option. 

Gere Flewelling

One detail I didn't mention is that the Super Split needs to be a one man operation as far as placing the wood and activating the controls.  Things happen so fast, the slightest distraction can be dangerous for a second person.  When working by your self it is not really an issue if you stay focused.  I would not suggest splitting wood next to where cheerleaders are practicing.  Just saying  :o.
Old 🚒 Fireman and Snow Cat Repairman (retired)
Matthew 6:3-4

Upstatewoodchuc

Quote from: Gere Flewelling on March 23, 2021, 08:35:56 AM
One detail I didn't mention is that the Super Split needs to be a one man operation as far as placing the wood and activating the controls.  Things happen so fast, the slightest distraction can be dangerous for a second person.  When working by your self it is not really an issue if you stay focused.  I would not suggest splitting wood next to where cheerleaders are practicing.  Just saying  :o.
Very true, if I pull the trigger on the supersplit I have already decided I would be the only one running it, I just don't think I could trust help running a kinetic splitter.
Current collection: Husky 3120xp,  372xp, 365, husky 55, homelite xl12. Michigan 85 wheel loader, Ford 8n with loader and forks. Farmall super C, 1988 international dump truck, John Deere 440ICD dozer, 19ft equipment trailer, 40 ton TSC splitter, modified dieder splitter with 4 way.

mike_belben

Put the cheerleaders away, check. 
Praise The Lord

cutterboy

Quote from: mike_belben on March 23, 2021, 11:38:15 AM
Put the cheerleaders away, check. ;D
No, put the wood splitter away! ;D
To underestimate old men and old machines is the folly of youth. Frank C.

woodworker9

Late to the party, but I own a Wolfe Ridge 35 HO.  Magnum package, which is 5" cylinder, 4" rod, 22 gpm pump.  8 second cycle time.  Great machine, and I'm very happy with it.  Now that I've run 40 cords through it, I've learned that I wished I would have purchased a box wedge unit.  I have the 4 way wedge, and a 6 way wedge for it that I bought extra.  I never use it.  I sell bundled hardwood, so I'm looking for nice, clean perfect splits.

The 4 way and 6 way do make plenty of kindling, but I bag it up and sell it for $5 for a full bag, and my customer base loves it.  I sell 1 cubic foot bags for $8, and 2 for $15.  No bulk sales at all.  Not interested.  Not profitable enough.

I get 100% free tree service wood.  I've got a couple guys that drop off trailer and dump truck loads every week.  I can barely keep up.  A LOT of it is huge oak, locust, maple, etc.....and 40" to 50" rounds is common.  Just got 3 truckloads of Ash dropped off, and 75% of it is over 36" diameter.

Because I don't have a box wedge, I've gotten tired of wrestling those monster rounds onto the machine.  The log lift handles them easily to lift them up on the splitter, but dealing with them after they get pushed through is another matter.  Several hundred pound chucks of wood falling everywhere at times.

I now noodle all the big rounds into quarters.  Takes a bit of extra time, but I have a 500i that makes short work of it.  I spent 90 minutes this morning noodling up that Ash, and it's now much more manageable for the 4 way.

At some point, I will probably build my own box wedge machine with a 28 gallon pump and 20 hp Honda.  I would probably use a box wedge 90% of the time with the tree service wood.  

Who cares about the kindling?  It's about speed, and not breaking your neck, not worrying about losing a face cord of firewood out of a 10 cord load.  I still sell the kindling anyway.....not all of it.  A lot of it goes in my own woodstove.  

I set all the nice splits for bundling, and all the chunks and shorts are stacked by my workshop for my own heat.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

stavebuyer

Tree service wood won't work all that well on a box wedge either. Been down that road. It won't be uniform and you will rip the wedge apart after you force enough knots through it. Big is fine. Sawn off limb knots and crotches not so much.
They don't post those videos.

woodworker9

Agreed, but I cut around the big crotch pieces, and I don't try to jamb them through the splitter.  There's plenty of good wood available to not worry about the crappy stuff.

My wife and I enjoy an outdoor bonfire on the patio from time to time, and I also heat my shop with wood, so that stuff gets burned up that way, once it's dried.

Big hardwood rounds are perfectly matched by a drag back box wedge machine.  Seen it with my own eyes.  Wolfe Ridge and Eastonmade make very good ones.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

stavebuyer

I had the same experience with the 6-way. Very seldom found it right for the task and a real hassle to wrestle the pieces needing to be re-split off, around, or over the wedge.

I had 4-way,6 way, and the very first box wedge Eastonmade built on my 22-28. I used the box wedge the most and found it most effective raised all the way up and running large rounds into boiler wood.

Two main issues. First is always going to be your wings are fixed and your logs are not. Every pass generally slices two pieces off the outside that vary from kindling to full size. Second is the fun times you have trying to free a tough knot stuck in a box wedge.

Yes, box wedge works better than 4-way or 6-way for big rounds. Big and knotty; they need to pay a tipping fee as free is still overpriced.

woodworker9

I pile up all my nasty, gnarly crotch pieces, take off the 4 way wedge, and split them into chunks with just the single wedge.  I burn that stuff in my woodshop woodstove.  I just finished restoring this 70's vintage Fisher Grandpa Bear stove.



 
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

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