Humboldt vs. Conventional

[WhitePineJunky]

Balsam and pine and red oak to lesser extent hinge and break beautiful 

[Nealm66]

Our softwoods and hardwoods can vary tremendously. We have oak and madrona, our second growth conifer is completely different to cut than our old growth and can be completely different on the coast than inland. A shallow undercut can give you a magnificent 50' barber chair on a tight grain old growth conifer. It is 100% going to barber chair in our hardwoods and our cotton wood trees can be 5-7' in diameter and a stove pipe for a long ways up and when they barber chair( or alligator ) it's spectacular! So no shortcuts here really. Especially if you're topping a big tree in half. Better have it right 

[doc henderson]

nealm and others, what are all the terms and definitions of the other terms.  stove pipe, alligator ect.

[Nealm66]

Stove pipe just means there's not a lot of taper in the log or tree trunk and looks like a stove pipe.  Alligator is another and more accurate in my opinion, term for when a tree barber chairs because an alligator will bite you. It's not as common in our wider grain softwoods or conifers but it definitely can happen in our tighter grain stuff if the face meets. 

[Skeans1]

That's a good thing, a meaningful discussion of why a particular approach is used. On the flats, I use a conventional and have the hinge in a root flare if possible. Certainly as close to the edge to Get ALL of the wood I can to the landing. Can save over a ft per tree vs. Humboldt partly because to use a Humboldt I would have the bar in the dirt to cut that low. So save a foot a tree using conventional and My log buyers takes the measurement FROM the base on the veneer & trees where the face cut is out of the money wood. Adds up quick at over a buck a foot. Using the conventional on a typical 100 tree job is 100ft of timber. Also typically pine and other soft wood around here is less than 300 a thousand, so LOTS vs every bit of it is the norm AND feller bunchers as it's tough for a logger to make a living getting 1/2 of 300 a thousand on soft wood. Out west soft wood is the norm. Here Hard Wood with much higher value is the norm. Different techniques to maximize return on investment have been developed in both area's. Why it's tough to listen to the one size fits all and push for Humboldt's by some of the large high volume Pacific North West Canadian channels for anything other than pure entertainment and to see other peoples worlds.

If I left a conventional face in a veneer alder log out here you'd have more then deduction you'd have a free cull log to the mill there's reason we do what we do, are you really gaining anything with a conventional face with a "lower" stump? How low are you cutting? If my sight cut is as low as the top of the face cut are who is wasting more wood?

[quilbilly]

Another discussion is about the species of a tree & fiber pull characteristics. Here they pull, out there in soft wood world they break so face cut angles can be less.

This is where I ended up after 25 years in this stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed72a3ugc2I

We get pull in our DF all the time. WRC breaks usually and Hem usually but not always. 

[WhitePineJunky]

That's a good thing, a meaningful discussion of why a particular approach is used. On the flats, I use a conventional and have the hinge in a root flare if possible. Certainly as close to the edge to Get ALL of the wood I can to the landing. Can save over a ft per tree vs. Humboldt partly because to use a Humboldt I would have the bar in the dirt to cut that low. So save a foot a tree using conventional and My log buyers takes the measurement FROM the base on the veneer & trees where the face cut is out of the money wood. Adds up quick at over a buck a foot. Using the conventional on a typical 100 tree job is 100ft of timber. Also typically pine and other soft wood around here is less than 300 a thousand, so LOTS vs every bit of it is the norm AND feller bunchers as it's tough for a logger to make a living getting 1/2 of 300 a thousand on soft wood. Out west soft wood is the norm. Here Hard Wood with much higher value is the norm. Different techniques to maximize return on investment have been developed in both area's. Why it's tough to listen to the one size fits all and push for Humboldt's by some of the large high volume Pacific North West Canadian channels for anything other than pure entertainment and to see other peoples worlds.

If I left a conventional face in a veneer alder log out here you'd have more then deduction you'd have a free cull log to the mill there's reason we do what we do, are you really gaining anything with a conventional face with a "lower" stump? How low are you cutting? If my sight cut is as low as the top of the face cut are who is wasting more wood?

But are you also considering what was mentioned above ? If you need an extra couple inches or you see you'll have close to a 16' log so you cut low as possible, it pays off, you made 16 instead of coming short an inch or two . Maybe it's different on your big timber out there, on my stuff I cut 10"-2ft , I can always get lower with a conventional, maybe it matter less on the big timber your way? Just trying to understand thanks for input skeans

Let's take what the mill wants out of the equation to, I don't have any deduction for selling mine like that here

[Nealm66]

One of the problems with cutting low into the swell in big timber is it doesn't follow the face as good from my experience and if you miss your aim your going to loose a lot more wood from breakage than you ever saved cutting into the swell. Forest service wants stumps lower than 12", Loggers want stumps below the dirt lol. I've always wondered if they cut the conventional off the butt to square up the log at the mill in the east. Around here it would mess with the computers it it wasn't square

[quilbilly]

One of the differences I think is on a conventional cut for a veneer log y'all have an extremely shallow face, so the face doesn't enter into the "cylinder" of the other end and doesn't count as deduct. 

Our red alder will typically split and pull with such a shallow face so we go as deep as we can many times. In looking at cuts on the what are you cutting page, we often just go deeper so the hinge is much closer to the middle of the tree and not so close to the outside. 

[WhitePineJunky]

One of the differences I think is on a conventional cut for a veneer log y'all have an extremely shallow face, so the face doesn't enter into the "cylinder" of the other end and doesn't count as deduct.

Our red alder will typically split and pull with such a shallow face so we go as deep as we can many times. In looking at cuts on the what are you cutting page, we often just go deeper so the hinge is much closer to the middle of the tree and not so close to the outside.

95% of I got have taper definitely not super great quality, but since that is, knowing you'll only get out of the log the size of the smallest end, the material the notch took would have mostly  been wasted material anyway

[WhitePineJunky]

Conventional notch lives matter! 

[Peter Drouin]

I buy logs from loggers around me in NH. Some do a good job some not so much. As a mill, I want 8' logs as well. big sawmills want only want 16' some 14' a hand full of 12' no 10' or 8'. I tell them to let the tree tell them what to cut. Strate logs make strate lumber.
I sell 8' to 24' in all the sizes. W pine and hemlock.
When I get 8' with a big notch in it. butt log I might get 7'.
But that is in the butt swell, so no matter.
I do have a good bunch who will call to see what I need for the length I want. I have a load coming with a bunch of 10' and 8' Hemlock. I told the logger to cut 17' and I will make 8' out of them.
I sell my lumber with the trim of the log on it.
After I cut the 17' into 8' then I scaled them. I even pay $50.00 a 1000 more than the big mills pay. I find if I treat them right they give me what I want or need. I am selling some 36' to 40' and they know what makes a good beam.
I love good loggers.

[Nealm66]

That's definitely different than how the bigger mills operate here. They have a minimum length average for the higher price as they know scribner will give them a lot of free wood on longer logs with taper

[Nealm66]

So the conventional undercut is typically shallow enough it doesn't go deeper than the swell is why it's no big deal over there? They would either cull the whole log or charge a reman over here. Can't be wasting space on them boats

[Peter Drouin]

I will get 2'' of trim and scale to the foot if it is a square cut I like 6" of trim.
Nice to see how mills work on scale in the country.
I use International 1/4" 

[Skeans1]

That's definitely different than how the bigger mills operate here. They have a minimum length average for the higher price as they know scribner will give them a lot of free wood on longer logs with taper

I wouldn't just say higher price, to keep an open purchase order they can have the minimum average length as well.

[weimedog]

That's a good thing, a meaningful discussion of why a particular approach is used. On the flats, I use a conventional and have the hinge in a root flare if possible. Certainly as close to the edge to Get ALL of the wood I can to the landing. Can save over a ft per tree vs. Humboldt partly because to use a Humboldt I would have the bar in the dirt to cut that low. So save a foot a tree using conventional and My log buyers takes the measurement FROM the base on the veneer & trees where the face cut is out of the money wood. Adds up quick at over a buck a foot. Using the conventional on a typical 100 tree job is 100ft of timber. Also typically pine and other soft wood around here is less than 300 a thousand, so LOTS vs every bit of it is the norm AND feller bunchers as it's tough for a logger to make a living getting 1/2 of 300 a thousand on soft wood. Out west soft wood is the norm. Here Hard Wood with much higher value is the norm. Different techniques to maximize return on investment have been developed in both area's. Why it's tough to listen to the one size fits all and push for Humboldt's by some of the large high volume Pacific North West Canadian channels for anything other than pure entertainment and to see other peoples worlds.

If I left a conventional face in a veneer alder log out here you'd have more then deduction you'd have a free cull log to the mill there's reason we do what we do, are you really gaining anything with a conventional face with a "lower" stump? How low are you cutting? If my sight cut is as low as the top of the face cut are who is wasting more wood?

Actually i cut a fair amount of veneer. No cull logs yet! As I mentioned several times most of the face cut is in the root flare and I bore cut a lot. No fiber pull. I can get a lot more of the butt log & less chance of fiber pull with a open face cut in the root flare than if I do a Humboldt cut into the "money" wood with a shallow face cut angle on the flat ground. And as I mentioned I'll use a humboldt on the hill sides. But that really misses the point. It's the location of the hinge that matters more than the face cut. If I can have that hinge out of the "money' wood it's the ground & clearance for the bar that determines what face cut I use. Did a video where I made a point of having the hinge in the root flare. The open face was essentially trimming root flare as well, something I would have had to do anyway. A bit of a time savings as often it's a pita to get to the part of the root flare once the tree is down and laying on it. About the only time I use either a conventional cut or Humboldt where the hinge is into the "money" wood is when I'm cutting tapped maple, cull wood, or fire wood.

[Nealm66]

Man, it's so different over there. So you're just undercutting in about as deep as the flare as low to the ground as possible which means even though you're top cut is taking wood out of the log, it's basically in the waste wood anyways when they mill it? Even the veneer logs? Our veneer logs all goes to plywood and logs are 8' multiples with a huge amount of trim. So a 16' they want 18' log

[Nealm66]

I haven't seen a refusal contract for missing length average but always has a price breakdown for shorter stuff. A close by mill that allows camp run won't buy Doug for under 26' 8". Or I should say won't hardly give anything for it. Peter, I had to google 1/4 scale. I didn't see where it showed longer logs? But definitely appears you would be plugged with logs around here quickly 

[Peter Drouin]

The scale goes to 20'. For longer stuff, I scale the small end and then halfway down. And I am plugged now. 

[weimedog]

Man, it's so different over there. So you're just undercutting in about as deep as the flare as low to the ground as possible which means even though you're top cut is taking wood out of the log, it's basically in the waste wood anyways when they mill it? Even the veneer logs? Our veneer logs all goes to plywood and logs are 8' multiples with a huge amount of trim. So a 16' they want 18' log

The back cut is right close to the ground, if I DID a Humboldt, then I would loose log length. On tree's where there is likely fiber pull, an open Face cut( conventional )  in a root flare if it's there to use, on the flat ground, and IF I have a hill side it will be more "Humboldt" style. The hinge location is more flexible. But the back cut is always as low as I can get it and the face cut is about access and hinge location. On tapped tree's, it doesn't matter as I will cut off a bunch anyway. But on veneer is does.

[weimedog]

Here is another guy who takes a similar approach, not the same, but along the same lines as I do and for the same reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ar2M6GSjiI

[Nealm66]

What a different world. I'm kinda glad we don't have the high value in our hardwoods after watching all the different cuts he had to make to get that thing on the dirt. 

[Nealm66]

I want to say our hardwoods aren't that forgiving either. Would be interesting to have a guy from the east fiddle around with a cotton wood of similar size to see what happens. Once they get a little lean they're not going to hang out on the stump like that but maybe I'm missing some tricks he's doing 

[Nealm66]

We do have black walnut and pretty much everything under the sun here just isn't logged commercially. I've had a resi tree removal/backyard logging business for many years that was a weekend job from falling timber, now it's pretty much all I do besides some sawmilling. I've cut down trees I don't even know what they are. I cut down a huge sycamore tree ( according to the 90 year old homeowner) in yelm Washington that would have been cool to slice into lumber but I didn't have a mill back then