7 vs 10 degree bands

[kenfrommaine]

Hi
Could someone explain the difference/advantage etc of using 7 degree over say 10 degree bands? All I have used is 10's I know the difference is angle of the tooth and 10 is more aggressive but does one perform better? 
Thanks for the education  

[terrifictimbersllc]

Many will tell you 7 is better than 10 for hardwoods.  And 7 turbo better than 7.  And 4 better than 7 but not necessarily better than turbo 7. 

But it may not be so for you.  Each person's mill, HP, wood, sawing technique, you have to work it out for yourself.
That being said you will probably get better help if you summarize your mill, HP, wood you saw, widths you saw, brand blades, and experiences so far.

[kenfrommaine]

16 hp twin brigs motor, usually saw pine, hemlock and some red oak.  Mostly saw into 1 inch boards widths up to 14" but usually 8 to 12". Have been using ripper 37, been happy just wondering if I am missing out on something lol thanks for the input.

[btulloh]

The blade is always sharper on the other side of the fence.   :D

I never used them, but there are a lot of fans of the Ripper 37's.  Seem to be a little harder to come by than some others.

I gotta second what terrifictimbers said about needing to work it out for you situation.  Can be frustrating to do that though and takes a while.  There'll be some other input showing up.  

Maybe if you're happy with the Ripper 37's, you've already found your sweet spot. ???  

[Mountain_d]

If I am sawing pine with a 24 hp mill and I take my blades to someone else to sharpen, does it make more sense for me to sharpen to 7 degrees instead of 10 degrees as I will get longer use from a blade before needing to resharpen?  Then there could be a discussion on what tooth set is best!
Mountain  

[Screwbolts]

It is truly amazing that we at this point in time have the gratest education tool ever created thus far in Human history and so many fail to use it. A very simple internet search will and were one questions but it does take effort.

I thinks I have seen Cooks Saws advertised possibly as a spinner on this forum.  They, that would be cooks saws, have an unbelievable amont of shout videos on that thing vslled YouTube . It will sctialy take a certen amount of initiative to actual look but they have many short videos that address the OP questions completely.

Regardless of ones opinion of TimberWolf bandsaw blades the offer for free a short 24 page catalog that is a tremendous remorse also answering the OP questions.

It will take some effort to actual educate ones self. But then you are the only one that may or may not know the type of wood your sawing and the condition of the saw your using.  

At least I am adding to my post count. Lol

[Dave Shepard]

You could do all that, but here on The Forestry Forum, you get actual opinions from actual people, who have actually used the bands in question. 

[kenfrommaine]

Screwbolts well yes google has lots of answers and pretty much everything anyone could want to know, but I have always found that some of the best "education" is learned from asking folks with actual experience. At least for me, I have found that some of the "ole timers" are willing to share their knowledge and experiences if ya just ask. Thought forums where to help and pass on knowledge, but thank you for that insightful comment, good luck with your "post count".    

[Southside]

Did they change the "proof" of the water they give out at Wall Drug or something?

[barbender]

Exactly, Dave👍 That's what the Forum is for. Kind of like "peer reviewed" sawing and logging info. You can just go out on Google no doubt. 75% of the time it will lead you right back to this site. The problem with getting the info out on the open internet (or worse, Facebook) is for every good piece of info you get, there is about 9 that are garbage. Don't believe me? Go onto one of the FB sawing groups, post a picture of a red oak log and ask people what species they think it is.

My experience with blades- 10° blades cut just fine. I've sawn with several manufacturer's 10° blades, all of them did fine. I switched to WM 7/34, they seemed to not get as many waves in pine. Now I've went to the WM 7/39 Turbo, it seems to allow faster feed rates as it keeps the sawdust cleaned out of the cut well. Saws pretty straight (probably really straight but I've been in some knotty spruce and pine).
 There is more to a blades aggressiveness than hook angle. I suppose for the same profile, a higher ° hook will be more aggressive, but many of these 7° blades have deep gullets with steep back angles (basically, they look really pointy) so even though the hook angle is shallower, the teeth penetrate and bite into the wood more aggressively because of the shape.  

[kenfrommaine]

Barbender, Thank you. This is the kind of answer I was hoping for.
Do you think  a 7 better is then a 10 with a 16hp? or would that only affect the feed rate?

[Nebraska]

I have a low (13)  hp mill and went from 10 to 7 to 4 degree. I have a box of Rippers 7 degree. I get better results from 4 degree blades.  Very smooth  cuts in knotty stuff, absolutely the best for me.. I am using  Kasco's but WM would probably  be similar. I have used Timberwolf,  Rippers, and Lennox.  No experience  with Cook's or WM.
Just my experience with blades in this journey.

[barbender]

Well, I've only used 7's on my LT40 with a 40hp diesel, so I can't directly answer that from experience. I think WM only recommends the Turbo 7 for higher hp engines, but I've read of people using them with low hp with good success all the same. The standard 7 will undoubtedly work well for your situation. WM has really been pushing the new 747 blade profile, which is pointier yet. I wasn't that impressed with the few I tried, maybe I'll try them again sometime but honestly I'm very satisfied with how the Turbo 7 performs on my machine. The reason Turbo 7s weren't recommended for low hp engines is if you don't maintain a high feed rate, they start to washboard (the blade is trying to bite into something but can't, and starts to vibrate). Theoretically with low hp, you might not be able to push the blade fast enough to not get washboard, without bogging your engine and causing waves. I would get one and give it a try, if you engine will pull it they are nice sawing blades. I run .045x1.5" Silvertips on mine. WM markets them as kind of a cheap throw away blade, but many of us are finding they have better flex life (more sharpenings) than Doublehards, and don't really give much up for how long they stay sharp either. 

[Patrick NC]

I use kasco 7° for everything on my 23 hp mill. Maybe there's something better out there , but these work great for me and chasing blade profiles can get expensive.

[Tacotodd]

@Patrick NC x2

[Jdock]

On a low hp small mill the difference in profiles seems to me to be fairly negligible. I've ran 10 degree sabertooths and 4degree kasco on my 7.5 hp os23 back to back on the same pine log and the only noticable difference was the kascos were 10$ a band cheaper. This was significant at the time as the reason for the blade change was me inadvertently shortening my backstop.

[Stephen1]

Barbender, Thank you. This is the kind of answer I was hoping for.
Do you think  a 7 better is then a 10 with a 16hp? or would that only affect the feed rate?

I always ran 10 on my 1993 lt40hd 24 onan. I only changed to 9 for ash and sugar maple. I ran that mill for 2000 hrs and they always performed great. 
When I upgraded to the new lt40hd with a 38 hp , the 10 was horrible. I couldn't cut pine at all. I run 7/39 turbos now and those 10's are hanging on the wall still.

[Screwbolts]

Part2 of bandsaw blade basics for OP

Sawmill Bandsaw Blade Basics 2 Hook Angle and Set - YouTube

if you can open the link it should be ever so self evident that you stand to learn facts not opinions from a social club of good old boys.


Laus Deo

Screwbolts

[LeeB]

Could it be that a lot of the "good ol' boys" might just happen to know what they're talking about?

[Patrick NC]

Part2 of bandsaw blade basics for OP

Sawmill Bandsaw Blade Basics 2 Hook Angle and Set - YouTube

if you can open the link it should be ever so self evident that you stand to learn facts not opinions from a social club of good old boys.


Laus Deo

Screwbolts

Watched the video. Didn't learn anything about what the OPs question was about. However I have learned a lot about blades and advantages/ disadvantages of different hook angles by following this forum and the advice of the many knowledgeable members here. Another thing I have learned over the years is how what's supposed to be in theory isn't always practical in real world application. I hold the opinions from this "social club of good old boys" in very high regard and wouldn't trade this resource for all the videos on the web. 

[dgdrls]

Kenfrommaine

As important as hook angle is, you have to know what your tooth set is,

Generally softer woods saw better with more hook angle, knots aside,
the wider you saw the more tooth set you can use/need.

D

[Jeff]

Screwball, I've sent you a p m. I strongly advise that you heed the content of that pm.

[Screwbolts]

The video is number 2 in a series, It is a start. And without a Start a journey can not begin. 

And some of use Surfs truly  don't know what we is a talked about is correct in every way.  

I did start doing my reaserch in 84 long before the net.  After that I drew the plans for my mill in late 84 and welded the first steel together in Feb of 85.

Yes this month of April in the Year of 2021 with a fraud at Casle Rock studios,  i did decide to do a major overhall to my old rugged mill.

It is correct that some here do have actually experiance of running some blades.

I do believe that some here may even remember in the late summer of 85 the exciteing phone call from the DoAll customer service guy at The DoAll company shop in Syracuse telling they  they just got the first coil in of this new fangled tooth spacing called 1.3. It might be just what your looking for.

Dont worry about My post count here, it will never get very high.

I still have a Reading room.

I still even have books and manuals you know they were called reference material.  I even dug out some of DoAll's catalogs from way back in 84, just to look at and enjoy  how easy us Surfs have it today. It has all been just a " Richmans Trick" since 1913. If you know, you know

All this was before many of the current crop of wonderful factory made machines were even thought of.

Enjoy the jouney.

If you know you know.

Throw a man a fish he will eat for a day, teach him how to fish he may eat for a life!

Laus Deo, from my reading room.  

Screwbolts.

[Old Greenhorn]

...
Dont worry about My post count here, it will never get very high.
.....

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Jeff]

He just deleted his photos and answered my pm. Trash and burn exit. Shows what a winner this _ _ _ _ _  _ _ _ was. He is now gone. Here is what I had to say to him.  Everyone can now know going forward, know this guy was a _ _ _  _ _ _ _   or how ever many blanks you might want to add...

You are not earning any citizenship points here on MY FORUM. I wake up to complaints about you to start my day and that don't sit well, as I like to start on a positive note, so let's do that.  You knock it the hell off so I don't have to remove your ability to use this website. Or, leave on your own if you don't have the capabilities of such an adjustment to your online persona. Easy Peasy.

SIGNED THE OWNER AND FOUNDER.

[Stephen1]

I was a little peaved last night, and was going to reply, but thought better of it, as I knew Jeff or a moderator would respond in a more responsible way than what I was going to post. 

[Jeff]

 I knew Jeff or a moderator would respond in a more responsible way than what I was going to post.

Welll I wouldn't go that far  :D ;D

[Old Greenhorn]

...
Dont worry about My post count here, it will never get very high.
.....

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That wasn't very hard to predict. ;D I could've been a blind squirrel and still found THAT nut.

[Dave Shepard]

I'm not sure what his agenda was, and I'm not entirely certain he did, either.  :D There isn't anywhere on the web where you can get more information and first hand experience on sawmilling than on The Forestry Forum! 

[Tacotodd]

I'm not sure what his agenda was, and I'm not entirely certain he did, either.  :D There isn't anywhere on the web where you can get more information and first hand experience on sawmilling than on The Forestry Forum!

X10!

[Bruno of NH]

I wouldn't be where I'm at without this place.

[barbender]

It sounded to me like he had an ego that needed stroked, as much as I could make sense of what he was saying. Typically people that fit well in this Forum don't start off by belittling people for asking a question, and tell you how good they are and how long they've been doing it in their first 5 posts🤷🏽‍♂️ I'm glad Facebook Jeff got ahold of him😂😂

[barbender]

And you know what Bruno, there are people on here that have learned from you (I wonder how many planters have been sold in North America from people reading about your's on here) and seen how a guy can take some hard hits and keep his chin up, and keep on keepin' on. That's the way it's supposed to work. That guy can go puff his chest on FB or something with all the fools that horde the sawing sites on there.

[Tacotodd]

Yeah, he REALLY got on my nerves when I asked him in a PM about his original signature. I've kept it to myself rather than getting my BP up any more than it is. I'll not elaborate any more, please don't ask, I'll not tell. It's a PM after all.

[Jeff]

I saw his sig when I investigated this morning. Like that wasnt breaking rules. 

[UncleMoustache]

Wow - that was interesting!

I gotta say, I like this forum so much more, now.

And I really like the owner/moderator!
(Not just because he has awesome facial hair.)


I wish the other forum I visit would be as quick to oust the troublemakers and egoists.   8)

[VB-Milling]

Wow - that was interesting!

I gotta say, I like this forum so much more, now.

And I really like the owner/moderator!
(Not just because he has awesome facial hair.)


I wish the other forum I visit would be as quick to oust the troublemakers and egoists.   8)

Seeing this thread, understanding what was going on and the swift nature in which everything was handled, is really what inspired me to come out of the lurker woodwork and start posting.
Meanwhile, the poor OP just wants opinions on 7 vs 10 degree bands...

[Patrick NC]

Back to the OP's question, for me the 10° cut faster but the 7° cuts flatter. Standard 7° not turbos. I've never tried turbos v

[Bruno of NH]

I didn't like the turbo 7's at first now I love them.
In softwood they can't be beat.
I like them in some hardwood not when its frozen.
Most hardwood and frozen logs I use the frost notch bands.
But in the none frozen softwood the turbos eat.

[Bruno of NH]

The silver tips preform much better for me as well.

[Patrick NC]

I didn't like the turbo 7's at first now I love them.
In softwood they can't be beat.
I like them in some hardwood not when its frozen.
Most hardwood and frozen logs I use the frost notch bands.
But in the none frozen softwood the turbos eat.

I'm about 15 hp less than you have so I've been reluctant to try the turbos. I might buy a couple to try. 

[btulloh]

I'm low HP, but 7's work much better than 10's for me on HW (green) and SW.  Kasco is the brand I've been using and very happy.

[Southside]

Turbos are all I run on both my 70 and my 35.  I was told the 25 HP on the 35 was too low but they perform flawlessly.  

[Patrick NC]

Turbos are all I run on both my 70 and my 35.  I was told the 25 HP on the 35 was too low but they perform flawlessly.  

As much as I don't want to chase profiles, I'm going to get a couple and see how they do with 23 hp. Standard 7s leave a lot of sawdust on the cant and I'd like to find something that will clear it better. 

[barbender]

I'm not sure if the Turbos clear noticeably more sawdust off the cant. They clear sawdust faster, so you can have an increased feed speed, but the sawdust spillage is similar. 

[barbender]

Southside, I really don't get that with the 7° Turbo. WM says they are only for higher hp mills, then they come out with the 747, which is even more aggressive- and they recommend that for pretty much everything. I think WM's marketing department hired someone from the Home Shopping Network or something right before they came out with that profile🤪😂

[Southside]

Yea there is a disconnect between the guys who design the stuff and the guys who run it, not sure why.  Encountered the same thing when I switched to 1.75" bands on the 70, was told I could not run them, won't fit, won't work.  Yea, yea, yea - just send me the wider guide rollers is all I kept saying, here is my CC number.  

Got off the phone, looked at my wife, sighed, and said "Who put the straw in strawberry?"....  Google that if you don't know the reference..... :D

[Tacotodd]

I just know that answer because of a REALLY funny radio commercial referring to just such an occurrence. Umm, (DA stoner voice) nature did! Still memorable.that's from almost 30yrs ago. Showing my age a bit aren't I.

[terrifictimbersllc]

Yea there is a disconnect between the guys who design the stuff and the guys who run it, not sure why.

It's amazing it comes out as well as it does.  To their credit I find some of the manufacturers listen to what us sawyers tell them about their sawmills. 

[Bruno of NH]

I'm sawing hemlock logs 10' and 12'  up to 16" on the small end.
The 1.25 x  .042 turbo 7's eat it some fast anything bigger gets 1.5 x .055 turbo 7's and they use 2x the gas , but eat.

[Stephen1]

Bruno, what sizes are you running in the silver tips? I saw a lot of soft wood like you. I am using bimetal 7/39 T now, but I'd like to reduce costs if i can. 

[Bruno of NH]

Bruno, what sizes are you running in the silver tips? I saw a lot of soft wood like you. I am using bimetal 7/39 T now, but I'd like to reduce costs if i can.

I run the 171"× 1.25 x .042 in logs under 16 " I pay around $16.50 per band and get 10 to 12 resharpings out of them . For over 16" logs 171" × 1.5 in .045 or .055 depending how wide of cut. The .055 some times break after one or 2 sharpenings . If I pull them quicker up to 3.

[Bruno of NH]

If I wasn't such a cheap old Yankee I would just dump the .042 after one use .
But my Pepere would say you will never drive a Cadillac doing things like that boy.  :D

[Stephen1]

The Bimetals I am using are actually 1.3/8" and stiff enough, untill I sharpen over 5/6 times then as the come down in size they do not do as well in wide slabs. 
Are you adjusting your roller guides when moving between 1.25 and 1.5" blades?
I have 2 boxs of 1.5" silvertips coming on the next canadian shipment to WM Canada. 

[VB-Milling]

I'm low HP, but 7's work much better than 10's for me on HW (green) and SW.  Kasco is the brand I've been using and very happy.

@btulloh 

Where are you finding 144 inch, 7 degree Kasco blades on their site?  Minimum size I see are 158 inches.

I'm assuming your HM126 takes 144?

[btulloh]

They have them. Just not on the site. Cutting Edge is the retailer for the US. Ff member as well. 

[barbender]

Kasco encourages people to contact one of their distributors to purchase blades, their website really isn't laid out well for it.

[VB-Milling]

They have them. Just not on the site. Cutting Edge is the retailer for the US. Ff member as well.

Kasco encourages people to contact one of their distributors to purchase blades, their website really isn't laid out well for it.

Thank you gentlemen...now I know how to proceed.  I will be hitting up @Cutting Edge when the time comes.

[btulloh]

Yep. I think they stopped selling direct altogether. Still works out the same though. 

They are usually at the Richmond Expo. Don't know about this year. Worth a visit to their booth if they are. 

Also worth stopping in to Logrite, known for cant hooks and tasty baked goods.  8)

[Bruno of NH]

The Bimetals I am using are actually 1.3/8" and stiff enough, untill I sharpen over 5/6 times then as the come down in size they do not do as well in wide slabs.
Are you adjusting your roller guides when moving between 1.25 and 1.5" blades?
I have 2 boxs of 1.5" silvertips coming on the next canadian shipment to WM Canada.

I have not adjusted my roller guides 
Probably not right but it's been working for me .

[VB-Milling]

Yep. I think they stopped selling direct altogether. Still works out the same though.

They are usually at the Richmond Expo. Don't know about this year. Worth a visit to their booth if they are.

Also worth stopping in to Logrite, known for cant hooks and tasty baked goods.  8)

Couldn't find either on the exhibitor's map...inside or outside.

[Southside]

Also worth stopping in to Logrite, known for cant hooks and tasty baked goods.

Nice folks, sponsor on the left....:D

[btulloh]

Ha! 

They usually have inventory for sale too.  Don't know about this year.  Different world now.

[Cutting Edge]

Yep. I think they stopped selling direct altogether. Still works out the same though. 

Usually works out better - Certain $$$ savings

They are usually at the Richmond Expo. Don't know about this year. Worth a visit to their booth if they are.

We won't be at Richmond this year, unfortunately.  To many unknowns/variables due to C-19 prior to Show Vendor Deadline.

[VB-Milling]

We won't be at Richmond this year, unfortunately.  To many unknowns/variables due to C-19 prior to Show Vendor Deadline.

That's too bad.  I'm thinking I'd be better off popping my Richmond Expo cherry next year rather than going this year.  I'll see how things shake out.