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Upgrading to a Larger Production

Started by just_sawing, May 01, 2021, 07:46:18 AM

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longtime lurker

Around here trade qualified plumber or boilermaker will be on $45 an hour, teacher will be on $75k a year which is the same thing but yanno... Good benefits in that government job.

My sawyer is on $40 an hour, flat rate but I'll toss in all his breaks for the week once he cracks 45 hours so 7-5 Mon-Fri is 50 hours ordinary time. Probably why I draw talent.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

mike_belben

@ bruno.. Use an air nailer to make wood racks from your thickest slabs.. Use bailing twine ontop to keep it from exploding and put them outfront for $20 each. Youll be forking those things into trucks left and right.

I can make a basket with chainsaw and airnailer in about 10 mins.  I put marks on the floor so theyre all the same and i dont waste time measuring.

 its all slabwood or doady heartwood cants for the fork spacer underneath.  I make the kids pack em right off the splitter









The twine loop on bottom keeps nails from backing out and the top chords prevent spreading.
Praise The Lord

barbender

Bruno, I'm getting a pretty good slab accumulation too but once I get time to buck them up they'll disappear into our bundled campfire wood.
  I have heard the common complaint of no being able to find help that will show up and work, and couldn't agree more that there is a problem with our society's work ethic. It's also true that if I really wanted to get serious about getting some help, current lumber prices would justify a higher wage. A lot of our local mills are stuck in that $12-$14/hr range (not the larger ones).
Too many irons in the fire

stavebuyer

Quote from: Bruno of NH on May 02, 2021, 12:36:33 PM
I wouldn't want to be a logger in NH.
Kennabec owns a lot of mills in Maine as well.
If you don't like the scale your out of luck unless guys like Peter and I are buying.
I pay more that the Canadians to get the red pine and spruce I buy.
I'm at the point now I'm buying  log truck loads like Peter. Sawing is the easy part , I need to do something with the waste slabs.
We have a burn ban.
I'm running out of room.
Bruno mill waste can easily become a show stopper. Even the big mills are struggling with it. The charcoal manufacturers here have started requiring debarked chips and saw dust due to emission regulations. Bark adds to ash content at the smokestack and ash is a no-no. Running a chipper is a stretch for band mill. Adding a full fledged de-barker and managing two waste streams into an already tight market is a tough battle. One large mill built a pellet plant and another started a mulch and soils company and I have it on inside information neither operation would be self supporting.
I was filling two tractor trailers per week with sawdust and chipped slabs. That material would be a liability now. A farmer might be able to lawfully burn it but as a "business" they would put me under the jail. 

mike_belben

With the amount of maple sugaring in the northeast, getting rid of slabwood should be a case of making it easy to load into a pickup, and letting the nearest sugar shack know that all they need to do is send a truck. And maybe donate a few pints.

Slabwood is perfect for evaporator fuel. 
Praise The Lord

mudfarmer

Quote from: barbender on May 02, 2021, 04:35:19 PM
Bruno, I'm getting a pretty good slab accumulation too but once I get time to buck them up they'll disappear into our bundled campfire wood.
 I have heard the common complaint of no being able to find help that will show up and work, and couldn't agree more that there is a problem with our society's work ethic. It's also true that if I really wanted to get serious about getting some help, current lumber prices would justify a higher wage. A lot of our local mills are stuck in that $12-$14/hr range (not the larger ones).
Yes there is lots of talk about people not wanting to work, maybe we just surround ourselves with good people but those people we are surrounded with are up to their ears in work. The ones locally at least complaining about not being able to get help do not pay enough to get or keep employees so they go somewhere else. This is the free market everyone wanted yet they complain about the results. If you have trouble getting or keeping help you better take a long hard look at what you are asking people to do and what you are willing to pay for them to do it. If you can't pay them what they are asking to do the job and still make a profit, well, some businesses fail that is just the way it is.

Nebraska

I like Mike's bundle Idea. If I fill all my firewood totes. I may set some bundles down by the road with a free sign on them.

florida

This will sound harsh but there's no other way to put it. Do they need you or do they need your sawmill? If you aren't a major partner in the operation you're just labor and they can and likely will replace you the moment they can find someone cheaper. Hotshot investors won't care whether you make a dime and will chew you up and spit you out in a heartbeat.
General contractor and carpenter for 50 years.
Retired now!

mike_belben

Quote from: Nebraska on May 03, 2021, 10:19:00 AM
I like Mike's bundle Idea. If I fill all my firewood totes. I may set some bundles down by the road with a free sign on them.
If you have forks and are just getting rid of slab waste, id also consider bucking stuff about 3 ft long and making a round bale somehow.  Maybe with some lid rings from a 55g drum and a few wraps of bailing twine.  That way you roll them onto your forks, roll them into a truckbed and wave goodbye without the time investment of a crate.  The new owner can roll them off a ramp to the woodshed instead of need to unstack a crate they may not be able to unload.  
Also less chance of an auto claim for bumping someones priceless 1993 pride and joy ford ranger while loading crates. 
Praise The Lord

WV Sawmiller

Mike,

   I like the looks of your woodpiles but that looks like firewood in it instead of slab wood. Are you selling firewood too? Do you start with an old wooden pallet and just add the slabwood sides or are you building the bottoms too? 

   I like the idea of the rolls too. Right now I'd just loading my slabs on a pile and have people who come load and pay a pittance for them but its better than when I was burning them myself.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

mike_belben

That one is my personal firewood pile and i made the entire thing.  

That one has cants that are probably cut up dunnage that i accumulated as a flatbed trucker.. Lots of shippers have sawmill dunnage to put on your deck so id keep kicking excess off at home.. But id set doady cants of my own aside for the same purpose.

The 3 bottom stringers are heavy slab.  Its important to set cants at the corners to have a nailer edge for the uprights, and one in the center to keep it from bowing in.  I think this is the minimal for a reliable crate. The twine really is necessity but i found that on the side of the interstate in VA so it doesnt owe me much!

Ps- put the twine on first, then fill it up. 
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

In my head i picture 2 drum rings hanging from a chain like what gymnasts flail around on, working very well for making slab bushels.  Id set them at standing straight up height for the spines sake.  Load em up, twine em up, chainsaw flush the ends to be pretty if you like, come under with the forks and knock the rings off with a hammer.  Leave the cinch bolts cinched so that if needed they can be uncinched to get them off.


I think itd make a nice packet without giving as much time or material away.

Maybe insert full 8/10/12ft slabwood right off a roller rack, twine it all up and THEN saw it into consumer pucks while the forks are under.  Perhaps a ratchet strap to pre-shrink the pile before twining so it stays tight.  Idk.  How bad do you want the stuff gone i guess.
Praise The Lord

stavebuyer

I found that during firewood season you can give away and even sell a few big bundles of slabs. Probably won't cover the loader time and banding. The other 6-8 months the pile gets out of hand. Its much like regular firewood; the wood is almost worthless. Its the labor to cut/split/deliver that has value. About anywhere you are going to "sawmill" is probably a low cost firewood market to start with.

At different times the flooring market was overwhelmed and ties were selling good we 4 sided logs into ties and cut up the heavy slabs into 16" blocks. That material sold very well for firewood but the economics of doing that thankfully doesn't happen too often.

Bruno of NH

I got some big piles.
The sugaring folks didn't come this year.
I have a big pile out by the road for free.
In a day I make a big pile now.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

longtime lurker

One thing I see here a lot is this process of "consultation between government and industry" whereby the government has some proposed idea that will affect industry so they put it out to consultation with whatever industry body who say "yeah we can live with that" and in comes a shiny new set of rules.
In my state industry that means consulting with a group that represents about 15% of the sawmillers in the state, but that 15% includes 75% of the states processing capacity - it's the big boys club and membership fees are high enough to keep all us little guys out.

And so I'm sure some body representing the interests of your state industry ticked off on a ban on burning... don't worry them big guys none because they don't burn. And if it makes it harder for the rest of y'all well that's just a little bonus or an unintended consequence, depending on the individuals point of view. At least thats how it seems to work here
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Tacotodd

Trying harder everyday.

Southside

If you can chip it and compost it the pile will shrink in volume and grow in value. 

Since we farm we spread a lot on our fields, but we do sell it also. 

Takes longer than managed composting but just putting it into a pile it will breakdown in a year or so. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

moodnacreek

I fooled around with slabs for a few years when I started. Quite the learning experience . First was whole slabs for free, ha ha ah.  Then I found an old Cornell slab wood saw , so I ran the slabs through this into a pile, same results as whole slabs. Next I built a slabwood conveyer to load our high sided 1 ton platform dump while being sawed and had a small list of deliveries . That list has become about a half dozen 24/7 , see ya later customers, [only the best need apply]. Took a lota years to make it work. Around here you can sell wood but cannot give it away I have learned. Another thing; never dump [your wood] on the ground unless you like picking it up.

Nebraska

Lots of wisdom in that last sentence.  

mike_belben

@ LL.  

I was in a marketing class way back when i had lots slightly more hair.. Very slightly actually now that i give it some thought.  Anyways, we studied many situations which were exactly as you described.  Where the big fish was laying hurdles abd land mines behind them they could afford but the upncomers could not, in order to cement their pecking order.  Phillip morris iirc was the lobbyist behind all the anti smoking stuff. It was nothing more than to hurt the little competitor.  There were many of these. 


As for the value being in the labor, its the same of field stone and quarry stone. Its worth nothing out in the woods.. People wont go dig it up for free.  But if you put it on their trailer in a pallet basket all sorted for size... 
Praise The Lord

hacknchop

Biggest problem is if you can be sawing lumber then that is where the money is and that is what you do, cutting up slabs just does not pay the same as sawing lumber.I have in the past payed to have them disposed of, taught them how use my loader to load their trucks with bundled slabs which they hauled to different ones in the area,farmers took all the sawdust. We bagged and sold our planer shavings. 
Often wrong never indoubt

brianJ

Quote from: mike_belben on May 03, 2021, 10:27:46 PM
@ LL.  

I was in a marketing class way back when i had lots slightly more hair.. Very slightly actually now that i give it some thought.  Anyways, we studied many situations which were exactly as you described.  Where the big fish was laying hurdles abd land mines behind them they could afford but the upncomers could not, in order to cement their pecking order.  Phillip morris iirc was the lobbyist behind all the anti smoking stuff. It was nothing more than to hurt the little competitor.  There were many of these.


As for the value being in the labor, its the same of field stone and quarry stone. Its worth nothing out in the woods.. People wont go dig it up for free.  But if you put it on their trailer in a pallet basket all sorted for size...
Is this secret code for firewood?    Mushroom logs?

nativewolf

@Bruno of NH Have you looked at mulch?  This is a product that requires minimal handling, you rent a tub grinder for 1/2 day and just grind it all for mulch (not chips).  It sits for 2 months and then is loaded into dump trucks with any loader (skidsteer, tractor, whatever loads a dump truck) it is dumped at a client site.  This cuts down on handling and mulch sells for a decent premium.  In the mid atlantic I understand that the mills sometimes make as much on mulch as lumber.  This requires a business close to wealthy suburbs but I bet you have that within an hour.  
Liking Walnut

mike_belben

Quote from: brianJ on May 04, 2021, 07:07:22 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on May 03, 2021, 10:27:46 PM
@ LL.  

I was in a marketing class way back when i had lots slightly more hair.. Very slightly actually now that i give it some thought.  Anyways, we studied many situations which were exactly as you described.  Where the big fish was laying hurdles abd land mines behind them they could afford but the upncomers could not, in order to cement their pecking order.  Phillip morris iirc was the lobbyist behind all the anti smoking stuff. It was nothing more than to hurt the little competitor.  There were many of these.


As for the value being in the labor, its the same of field stone and quarry stone. Its worth nothing out in the woods.. People wont go dig it up for free.  But if you put it on their trailer in a pallet basket all sorted for size...
Is this secret code for firewood?    Mushroom logs?
No not at all, whatta ya mean?  Read LLs post before mine and mine should make sense.  Big corporations frequently lobby government to add regulations to industry that they can afford but the startup competitors cannot.  There were case studies in a college business marketing class i took 20 yrs ago
Praise The Lord

stavebuyer

Bark makes decent mulch. Wood chips not so much. Colorized is all the rage.

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