iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

You filthy swine!

Started by mike_belben, June 25, 2021, 11:44:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tacotodd


My competitive nature has plain crashed!
Trying harder everyday.

mudfarmer

Right, hogs... Got distracted for a few days  ;D At Dr. Office will just ramble based on what I remember reading the other day.

Ya'll covered it pretty well from my perspective I guess. You don't want to be a modern commercial scale swine herd, especially on contract. There is some good info on Tyson Chicken etc contract farms out there and it sounds similar for pork. Very bad. Very very bad.

As mentioned last year there were fields dug up to bury millions of hogs that could not be processed immediately, rather than continuing to feed them. This meant in the Northeast and I suspect elsewhere that you could buy a gooseneck stock trailer of feeders from PA for $20 each and not even pay trucking. This among other things wrecked the custom processing market (how we personally were selling wholes/halves) and led to me slaughtering and butchering a handful of pigs on the farm.

If you want to provide good wholesome healthy food for your family, friends, neighbors, community and beyond, AND you have land to clear or marginal land AND you have a robust and resilient local custom processing system in place, well there is still a lot more to it  :D

Most pig breeds do not seem to do well on pasture/forage only. I think we have bred it out of them honestly. Heritage breeds will obviously be better here. They will likely still need supplemental grain if you are raising them for slaughter. Maybe not if selling as feeders??? Please do not feed them garbage, post consumer wastes, massive amounts of industrial food byproduct like dairy waste etc. Pre consumer food scraps are a very good bet though. Think bakeries, hospital, schools, (good) restaurants, that sort of thing. Nothing like dumping a 55gal drum of whole watermelons on a hot day and watching the piggies go berserker on em.

Supplemental grain , if you can't produce it yourself means market whim. Commodity pricing has been wild as you know. Buyer beware. Buy bulk and buy rarely. Last June and July you could not get hog feed here. 

Pigs are going to wallow, I'd expect especially in TN. They do this to keep cool and sometimes to have fun, so if you deprive them of this you are depriving them of pig-ness. They are hard on land that is for sure. Still working for us is intensive rotation in small to mid size spaces for land clearing purposes. They are not destroying the nice pastures or the woods, they are hard at work 24/7. This goes to next topic of keeping breeders or buying feeders?? We breed pigs -we purposely bought registered stock of a breed that has dwindling numbers for breed conservation purposes. As a result we have sold wholes/halves through a couple custom processors, we have sold feeders, we have sold roasters, blah blah. Selling piglets is my favorite! The boar and sows get used for land clearing and soil amendment year round. The piglets,feeders, whatever do the same while they are around.


Marketing is tough. We always manage to get rid of the pigs but sometimes not as soon as we would like. This is on a scale of 25-100 per year. At least one litter of fall piglets has turned into growers to be sold in the spring. Our best customers are people we know that trust us to provide extremely high quality food. Since we don't know that many people this is only slightly helpful. There are others that see what we charge for a piglet and call specifically asking for a breeding pair so they can directly compete from 5mi up the road! Thankfully it has been 3 years since I have seen any local breeders offeri g $30 piglets and the rest have realized that they were essentially paying people to take them, prices now steady this year from $100-$200 weaned, depending on.. a lot.

Have to go now again but will try to come back to ramble more later. This is all just my personal experience in my location and may be way off elsewhere. It is also stream of consciousness and worth what you paid.

stavebuyer

I can buy many food items at the store much cheaper than I could produce them but most are not fit to eat and many are downright dangerous. At one point a couple generations ago when  society first completely migrated from self sufficiency to specialization the change was pretty well universally beneficial. Somewhere along the way specialization was corrupted by greed and morphed into the sad state of inedible garbage that crowds the store shelves today. 

Let Walmart and Target race to the bottom. What they sell really isn't food. The biggest obstacle to meat is processing. Customers are already waiting in line for alternatives hence the multi-year waiting time for kill appointments. 

You can raise em but who will run the slaughterhouse and how much red tape will the monopolies deploy to ensure that new facilities won't be permitted open?

mudfarmer

Took this pic just now at evening feeding. We don't do "free choice" of anything but forage except for feeder pigs  which means feeding twice a day, every day. This seems ok for your personal situation, it has been a little rough on ours but only when it comes to beach mojitos. Forest mojitos are better anyway.

40x40 space added to 32x64 space exactly 7 days ago:



 

 

This is one boar and two recently bred sows. Species composition heavy to hawthorn, buckthorn, ash, elm, black cherry, red and sugar maple, frrns, forbs, grasses. Here is a picture from just outside the fence, maybe can even see it



 

Bonus pictures because the mosquitoes are not biting!

Same new 40x40 a day or two after pigs added:


 

A different happy mud momma, in the process of weaning her litter of two(!!!!) piglets. Her mother also had only two, a single time and mostly none, we kept her around anyway. Often 'unproductive' breeding stock is culled and this makes sense especially with breed conservation in mind. That sucks, especially because this is, hands down, no doubt, all the chips on the table bet, the best bloodline combination with our boar that we have found. Except the small litters. They are the hardiest, the hairiest, the most bulldog muscle bound meat producing thick necked stump diggers ever to Grace the farm. They do not get registered or sold for breeding or meat, they are the private stock  8)



 

You will notice the panel fencing. I don't do electric for the pigs. Works for other stock here but these panels last a very long time (sold as cattle panels, hog panels sold here are shorter and do not have smaller holes at bottom) and when too beat up become trellises for peas and beans. T posts pull up easy and last well enough.

Happy pigging, even if it is a feeder for the freezer!

mudfarmer

Mike if your neighbors are pill people and also hill people we can just ax the thread, you butcher yourself and sell what you want to who you want when you want. This is an option or I can edit this post to emoticons

Southside

If you try to sell to the mucky mucks they will expect any feed to be non-GMO.  They will pay the price for that, just be prepared for the question.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Bradm

I remember that crash in '98 and pork prices here were down for a few years.  I was doing 40 hours a week in college and working 40 hours a week in the shop trying to keep up.  That crash wiped out all the small producers and most of the independents.  In the rebound from that crash, McCains was the big name putting up new barns all around here and they contracted out all the operations (I worked on 4 or 5 of those barns during the summer of 2002).

@mike_belben, I went back and read the regulations I posted and need to eat a little crow.  I didn't realize that federal inspection is required for local sales.  Here it's provincial for any sales in the province and federal for export outside the province.  The local health department inspects the retail areas and the federal inspection comes by to make sure that waste handling is proper (this is primarily BSE, Mad Cow Disease, related).

You may not be looking to get in but I'll describe a basic layout in case someone else is.  Basically you just need to keep it simple.  Just as you would set the workflow in a sawmill, you would set the workflow to as close to a uni-directional pattern as possible to prevent cross-contamination.  Layout would be as follows then:

Live animal unloading>holding pens>kill floor/slaughter room>chill cooler>holding cooler>cut room>retail (if allowed)>freezer>shipping area.  For the unloading area it can be a good idea to have a gate that can close off the area for when things go wrong and an animal gets out.  I'm not sure if it got printed but a reporter got a picture of me walking behind a bull down the main street of our town when one got loose.

As far as the biggest hindrances to the meat industry goes, I feel that there are 4 main drivers:
1) Media blowing recall notices out of proportion.  To the best of my knowledge, almost all recalls have originated at the large producers and can usually be traced back to cost cutting and fudging paperwork.
2) Government employee unions and departments not dealing with unqualified workers and conflicts of interest.
3) Lobby groups that write the rule book in order to drive out the small guy.
4) The government itself for not getting out of their own way and just passing requirements in order to look like their doing something.  A custom & retail shop doesn't need the same layout and waste handling that a 10,000 head a day wholesale outfit needs.

If someone wants to get in, it can be done and now would be the ideal time to start.  The big boys can scream, holler, and spend as much as they want but all the start up needs to do is point to how the supply chain was affected during Covid purely due to all the capacity tied into a few gigantic plants.

mike_belben

Keep it comin guys.  Im soakin it in.  


Praise The Lord

farmfromkansas

  The pics Mudfarmer posted remind me of my time on the hog farm.  Set up a pen, if there is a tree in there, the hogs will kill it.  Along with every other plant.  Have been told they will kill off bindweed, by just eating and digging it up.  Takes a while.  Any time the power blinked, the hogs were out, guy had a weed burner fencer.  Hogs seem to be able to smell when the hot wire goes out.  They would go to the shop, and the shop would be stirred up with mud and everything in there.  Guy had drums of oil for hydraulic and engine oil, the drums were dumped, the oil drained on the floor and stirred into the dirt and nails and every other thing in the shop. 
Most everything I enjoy doing turns out to be work

mike_belben

@Bradm  

You mentioned fed inspection to ensure "proper" waste handling.  What is and isnt proper waste handling in a USDA facility?  

I have looked into the large digesters that are commonly being set up at big producers to hot compost mortality pigs and parts.  What do renderers eventually do with all that slop?  What do killfloors do with all the blood, scum and rinsewater that goes down the drain? Is it just into the septic tank or does the law require holding tanks and a pumpout receipt to treatment plants?


Praise The Lord

mike_belben

Praise The Lord

Bradm

Quote from: mike_belben on July 01, 2021, 05:31:52 PM
@Bradm  

You mentioned fed inspection to ensure "proper" waste handling.  What is and isnt proper waste handling in a USDA facility?  

I have looked into the large digesters that are commonly being set up at big producers to hot compost mortality pigs and parts.  What do renderers eventually do with all that slop?  What do killfloors do with all the blood, scum and rinsewater that goes down the drain? Is it just into the septic tank or does the law require holding tanks and a pumpout receipt to treatment plants?
I can't speak for USDA specifically as I'm in Ontario, Canada so I'll relate what some of our regulations are and a bit of history as well.

We have 3 levels of inspection - municipal (city), provincial OMAFRA (state), and federal CFIA (USDA equivalent) with each having their own fiefdom for lack of a better word.  Municipal handled non slaughter facilities and retail until the provincial decided that further processing was now under their jurisdiction as well; provincial handled slaughter houses that sold to the public but do not export outside the province; federal handled the large processors that focused on high volume production and export.

In 1994 or 1995 OMAFRA began to audit all slaughterhouses.  Inside of a few years, the province went from having 400ish plants to under 150 (currently around 100 if I remember correctly).  The audits were, and are, intended to ensure that all meat processing facilities met a provincial standard to further ensure public safety.  The first binder was about 400 pages of regs with 1 reg per page.  Many were repeats of earlier regs just written in a different manner.  I'm not sure how large it is now but I do believe that over 1/3, if not fully 1/2, relate to ready to eat meat (cured, smoked, and cooked).

In 2003, after 1 positive case of BSE (mad cow disease) in Alberta, our federal government, in order to maintain exports, had CFIA come up with policies to prevent any possible spread of BSE.  It had been determined that BSE spreads mainly from certain by products making it back into the feed of the animals.  These by products were the blood, brain, tonsils, spinal cord and bowel (if not the full large intestine) of cattle over the age of 30 months (I don't really understand how the age was determined to be a factor).  Due to these by products being used in feed that was exported, all plants were placed under CFIA purview with regards to waste and the waste needed to be held separately and documented for weight and who picked it up for disposal.  Fast forward 18 years and I believe Canada has now been given an all clear with regards to BSE so the regs might change, though I doubt it.

For solid waste disposal (bones, fat, offal, etc), a rendering company may be your best bet as some might still pay for what they pick up; you may also be able to bury or run a digester.  For liquid disposal either a lagoon or holding tanks - speak to someone from the EPA(?) or even the state regulators.  Manure could be spread on fields if free from blood or mixed with dirt, sawdust and digester output to make fertilizer.

Again, this is some of the regulations here in Ontario, Canada.  Odds are there will be many similarities for a USDA facility and there will probably be some notable differences (USDA must inspect all plants that sell product rather than just services for one).

mike_belben

Thank you for sharing all that!  Its funny how slow my brain processes canadian governmental units.  We are fed/state/county/town (or city)
Praise The Lord

SwampDonkey

I watched my cousin fence off an area around an old barn that was overwhelmed in weeds and grass. I think 6 piggies. They sure mowed that down quick, and they love young pig weed and lamb quarters. Groundhogs do to, I watch them in the yard on new seeded lawn, they go for them lambs quarter leaves big time. I wish they ate burdock, maybe piggies do. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chevytaHOE5674

I don't know all the ins and outs but some local guys are opening a small processing facility. Its been a 3 year process getting all the proper permits, inspections, etc in place from the USDA, state health department, and probably other agencies I've never heard of.

mike_belben

Feeding Poultry Litter to Beef Cattle | MU Extension


So i just discovered it is legal and likely common for large beef producers to feed poultry poop to their beef...?  As my son would say, thats disgustipating.  Im surrounded by poultry congolmerates and hope the local steaks arent overwintered on fermented chicken plops. 

Praise The Lord

newoodguy78

Be careful,The more you dig into commercial food production the less you'll like it ;)

Southside

No it isn't. But, it used to be. I still have the books with recommend USDA daily guidelines. Mad cow disease put a stop to the practice, thankfully. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Nebraska

FWIW mostly in my state any poultry barn waste goes to feed cropground.. Corn/soybeans  feed livestock. 
They feed me :)...

Don P

Quote from: Nebraska on July 10, 2021, 07:18:35 PMCorn/soybeans  feed livestock.  They feed me ...
Which makes me a vegetarian ;D.


Commodity food production is one reason I prefer home grown or local food.

mike_belben

Quote from: Southside on July 10, 2021, 02:39:59 PM
No it isn't. But, it used to be. 
Isnt popular or isnt legal?  Univ of missouri link claimed it was halted in 03 and approved again in 05 by FDA.  Was it banned again after 05 and the link is just old?
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

Quote from: Don P on July 10, 2021, 08:33:48 PM

Commodity food production is one reason I prefer home grown or local food.
You aint kiddin.  Id rather take my chances with lead poisoning and CWD. 
Praise The Lord

Southside

It's my understanding that feeding any animal by product or carcas to a bovine is prohibited. If memory serves me correctly the EU and Japan would not buy our beef because of the whole issue so that was the catalyst.

For sure don't think I am standing up for big AG here.

Of course Country Of Origin Labeling (COOL) was removed so who knows what the lobbyists might have gotten done on a Friday night. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

WV Sawmiller

   This reminds me of the the tale a co-worker from SC told one time about a pig farmer down there who was shut finally down. They said he had rows of pig pens so tight the pigs could not even turn around and he had them lined up head to tail and just fed the first one. 

   I remember an episode on Mountain Men where Eustace Conway down near Hickory NC built a pig and chicken pen with the pigs on top with wide gaps in the boards and the chickens lived underneath and just foraged through the pig droppings.

   I'd heard of people having rabbit hutches built over worm beds and they raised fish bait from the rabbit wastes.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Don P

In the 50's Purina came to my Dad's hometown. In order to convince farmers to bring their grain to them to be ground into feed they put up a set of demonstration pens out front. In the first pair they had 2 hogs, one upstream of the other. The first hog ate whole kernel corn, the second ate what came out of the first hog. The second hog grew bigger. The corn was starting to be broken down in the first but was mostly utilized by the second.
The next pen had a single hog fed ground corn, it outdid the other two.

Thank You Sponsors!