iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

You filthy swine!

Started by mike_belben, June 25, 2021, 11:44:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

newoodguy78

That's awesome.Staying calm and unafraid when handling cows goes a long ways for sure. Just be aware when you get around animals in heat all normal cow thinking tends to go right out the window at that point.
Now you just have to work on getting them to come when you call ...it'll save you a lot of steps we are getting older ya know  :D
Glad it went well 

Roxie

Feels good, doesn't it!  What impresses me the most is that you did it with Angus. We've loaded many into the trailer with just putting grain or silage up front. We also took a cow if we had to load a bull. Yelling isn't the way to get them to move. 
Say when

mike_belben

yeah, im feeling accomplished.  

a "bud box" is the creation most commonly used to load trailers by stockyards and such and they were created by bud williams. youtube it, they fly in like clockwork, pretty cool.


just paraphrasing bud here.. cows are a prey species, so you tap that instinct by coming in as the predator and they will respond as normal.  you walk in and swing around circling from afar with a hard look right straight at them because youre a panther scanning for the injured one.  they cluster together into a herd with every eye on you awaiting the attack.  you just dont get anywhere close enough for them to react, so they hold still.  you are in the pressure zone, all sets of eyeballs are full on you, but you arent in the flight zone, so movement doesnt occur.  youve gotta watch close for the flightest animal to give a sign and back off before that animal darts, if you want them to stay.  once clustered theyll stay magnetized.  now you can walk off and go get individual stragglers.  

you come up to a straggler with its head down.  head comes up but its not looking at you.  youre in its awareness zone, one eyeball sufficient.  as you get closer it experiences more alarm, the head turns to put 2 eyes on you.  now youre in the pressure zone.  if its doing what you want it to do, say standing still, reward it by backing off and pausing.  ease the pressure just a few steps. this communicates that things are okay so just keep doing what youre doing. now if you want it to move forward in the direction its positioned,  you walk right at the front shoulder and when you hit the flight zone, forward she goes. if shes positioned wrong and needs to be turned, you walk right in toward the tail and that cow will spin to keep eyes on you.  just position yourself so the body is aimed right and when it is, walk toward its tail at a tangent and poof, she goes forward and joins the herd.  

once you got them all rounded up and their torsos are going the right way just walk right up to the back side of them and sorta zig zag behind the herd to move it.  if you follow behind straight they wanna steer off at an angle, so to drive them straight you kinda walk off at angles behind them.  theyll keep turning their heads to keep tabs on you.  ive experienced this with deer, and been practicing on my dogs, it works excellent.. i can steer my dog right to anything this way just by getting behind it, where it really doesnt want me to be.

to turn out one cow from a closed herd you lock eyes on that one and advance until its staring dead straight at you but dont advance to the point it bolts, stay in the pressure but outside the flight circle. the other cows move and rejoin and the pack heads off say to the west.  stay locked on the target cow and walk arcs on the perimeter of his or her pressure circle until she turns the direction you want her, say northeast. she is paralyzed with fear but the others you arent look at have moved along.  when the other cows are all out of the way and its safe to do so, step into her flight zone behind the balance point which is like the front elbow area.  drive behind that she will turn, drive ahead of the shoulder say at her head and she will bolt straight forward in the direction she is already in.  you just steer her out of the crowd like that nice and easy, she trots 50 feet or so and you keep swinging the steering wheel, driving the bus from behind.   shes doing what you want so reward her with backing off the pressure zone periodically, then back into the pressure zone to keep her moving.  no need to make a sound, just looks and position. it was actually fun.
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

oh, and dont pressure into a corner, duh.  only pressure when there is somewhere for the animal to go to relieve your pressure, ideally to the place you want them to go. a dead end or fenced corner is never ever the right place for that. back off and give it an exit from you.

  i was locked in the center lane (about 15' wide x 500ish feet long) with all 45 of them and had to pass the herd 3x in it to open and close gates for the move.  i just went all the way to the side right up against the barbwire like when two semis have to pass on a narrow road, looked down at the ground and walked at a normal calm pace like i had zero interest in them.  they stayed to the opposite side and dispersed to get away without stampeding or going through the fence, it was all pretty orderly. 

Bud Williams is said to have rounded up wild cows, elk and reindeer by the thousands, many of which had never seen humans... on foot by himself. amazing.
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

Quote from: newoodguy78 on October 18, 2021, 04:35:08 PMJust be aware when you get around animals in heat all normal cow thinking tends to go right out the window at that point.
there were actually 3 getting mounted.  soon as the predator pressure comes into play herd animals stop trying to breed and go into the #1 heirarchy of action, which is evade predation. 
Praise The Lord

gspren

  Sounds like you could get a job as a Border Collie  :D, don't know if that pays much.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

mike_belben

 ;D

Bud was terrible with speaking to humans, its obvious why he preferred to be alone with animals. ive read transcripts of his teaching seminars from back in the day and they are absolutely terrible.. he was a simple man who just couldnt find the words and pretty much always reduced to insulting the stockman industry as a whole for being idiots.  im sure he was acting it out on stage and in person you could get it, but as a transcript it was just a big blank of go here, now here, then here.  

anyways, he tended to rant on cattle dogs, saying that what the industry considered a good trained purebred big dollar cow dog full of obedience to word commands, was a useless ankle biting attack dog to him on the range.  that his best dogs had absolutely no commands, they just worked as partners in silent manuevers and the dog just knew what to do instinctively.  i suspect they were likely all mutts too.  ive enjoyed reading his tales. 
Praise The Lord

barbender

That's very interesting, Mike. I will say, I've came across a few Angus cows that I think reversed the predator/prey dynamic on me😂 Some of those ol' girls are just mean!
Too many irons in the fire

mike_belben

I have no experience. I cant say anything about this herd because i just dont know anything.  but im glad it went well.  I was reaaaaallllllyyyyy contemplating this bright idea when standing firm, toe to toe about 8 feet from 2 bulls whos eyes were as high up as mine, in a fenced lane, with another 30ish head behind them bottled up at a single open gate when paul shoulda opened both.   I backed off a step, gave it 30 seconds or so, sidestepped 6 feet and pressured forward at that flank a few steps. They turned and went in without fuss and i just came up from behind driving them through to the feeders nice and calm.  They chowed down with no issue or eyeballing, then went back out the fenced lane to a gate i shoulda left open but didnt realize they were gonna go back in that same paddock i rounded up from. So i had to walk back down the lane through the crowd and open that.  Again i just gave them a wide berth, looked at the ground and shuffled through calmly.  They moved like traffic for an ambulance. 


Dont blame me.. Talk to Bud Williams! I just read it on the innernets!

:P  
Praise The Lord

barbender

Oh I'm not doubting your experience at all. It's a method I'd like to learn more about. I'm no experienced stock handler. I've only been around other people's herds, mainly my uncle's ranch out in Wyoming. I can't remember how many times I've been on a ride along out feeding, and he'll tell me, "watch out for that b#$ch right there!". Never warned me about any of the bulls. I suppose anyone with half a brain has sense enough to keep an eye on the big bad bull. Some of those Angus cows would try to put the sneaks on you and attack😬 Don't turn your back on them!😊
Too many irons in the fire

mike_belben

honest to god, i really meant it when i say i have no experience.  

the bulls had the smallest pressure and flight zone.  i had to be right up on em to get them to move, which is natural for an older animal being grain fed every day by a human.  it is possible for say dairy or show cows to be so unafraid of humans that these methods dont work at all because a human doesnt create a flight level fear in them anymore.  


every cows flight zone is unique in size and you have to watch for that little cue that youve just stepped in it.  a twitch or flick of the ear or foot move.  the tricky thing is that flighty cow might be 3 rows back in the center of the herd and then it tries to bolt from within and spooks the whole crowd.  thats what i was afraid of with the bulls in my face, that id hit the cow behind thems flight zone before theirs and the cow would set off a chain reaction.  the way i understand it the flighty one isnt mean, its just more terrified than the rest and goes bonkers when you dont think you did anything but you violated its flight zone and that causes it to charge in whatever direction it was previously oriented because thats what they do, go straight.  identify the size of the pressure zone, step in, pause... step back and then leave that cow alone, go do something else.  each time you do this pressure and release cycle its flight zone will shrink and itll tame down in time. the claim is that bud could do it in 5 or 10 minutes with completely wild problem cattle and that is basically what his whole education series is about. pressure and release training. 


his technique was designed around western big open ranch stuff where the cows hardly experience man kind and that pressure zone could be hundreds of yards.  those who use it claim you can put a herd where you want and itll stay there without fences out on big ranges until you come to move them.  

  someone mob grazing with a hot wire would hardly have need to use such techniques because the cows will be waiting like marathon runners for the wire to move onto fresher grass every morning.  then someone feeding grain just has to shake the bucket and do their call for the herd to run over.  i was just having fun playing around and excited to announce that im still alive!
Praise The Lord

Southside

Awesome job Mike!!  

It's funny, I hear that about Angus all the time, we run some, no issues.  Especially hear it about Jersey bulls - first everyone tells you the calves just up and die, they all get scours, won't eat, flop over and die.  Then when they are grown they are the meanest bull to walk the Earth.  Right now we have 8 or so youngish Jersey bulls.  You can walk up to any one of them at any time and run a hand down their back as you walk by.  If you band them young they never really fill out, so we keep them intact longer for that reason.  Those will get banded this fall now that the flies are about done.  One is being kept for breeding given his lineage and how he turned out.  Captian Jack we call him.  He got that name when I was making him cross paddocks by walking along a 1x6 I had dropped across the fence.  He walked the plank, so he got the name. He has had a rope halter put onto him enough that he knows not to try and yank away.  Has been in a stall during milking many times, just hanging out with his mother.  Absolutely loves getting scratched under his chin.  By no means a pet and one day he will be sold to breed someone elses cows or will become burger, but in the meantime he respects people, fences, and other cattle.  On the flip side I have seen a Holstein that was a clean up bull in a free stall barn try to kill his owner when he got out of a pen.  Ronnie was yelling for me to shoot it as he was running up a snowbank.   So much of it is how you handle them.  Crowd gates, prods, and jumping jacks are not the way to do it.  We had one cow that would jump out of the milking stalls, even with the claw attached, just launch herself over the breast gate. So we had to put higher gates in place.  That cow jumped over fences and everything else, she was scared of the world.  Now I can walk by her and run my hand down her back, no issues.  

Few things I have learned.  Ditch the DanG sunglasses!!  I have green eyes and they are super sensitive to light, makes for awesome low light vision, but in snow or glare it is miserable - I never wear sunglasses around the cows even when it hurts.  Get a cow that isn't confident or is spooky and you look like a sparkly eyed alien heading her way to do bad things to her.  Put them on your hat and now you are a really bizarre creature who only exists to harm said cow, and she knows it!  Time and time again I have had to tell employees, and my wife - "Loose the glasses" - you can see it in the cow.  Her focus is right on those and she is showing fear in every sense possible.  A scared cow is an un-predicable cow.  Fight or flight kicks in and flight it always is, even if that means flight is right over the top of the bug eyed creature between her and freedom.  Take the glasses off and the cows body posture relaxes several times over.  

Talk to and around your cows. Get them to know what a normal voice sounds like, even when it's loud.  This way when you have help and hollar over to him or her the cows don't freak over it.  Just part of life.  I talk to them as I approach them, especially when coming from behind, so I don't startle them when suddenly I appear out of nowhere in their field of view.   

Obviously respect any 1,000 lb animal.  Even a 150 lb calf will kick the snot out of you.  They are simply stronger than we are.  I will say what I want them to do also, not that I think they always understand what I am saying, but if nothing else it reinforces me and my body to do what my mind is saying I should do.  Think of it this way.  How much harder is it to make your non dominant hand do a strange action if you are talking out loud and saying something completely opposite?  Hard to split your attention.  Now throw in a large animal that you are observing and reacting to - gets about impossible.  So tell the cow what you want her to do and your body language will reflect that too.   Body follows the head principle, with a twist.  

Keep them together.  Better to back off and let the straggler mix in with the herd rather than push the herd and have the straggler go the wrong way.  Suddenly the straggler is the leader as everyone goes that way, which you didn't want to happen.  

Join a gym if you really feel the necessity to do jumping jacks and other calestitics while working stock.  Can't stand seeing people hootin, hollarin, jumpin, whumpin, and rippin around on the wheeler behind cows.  They stop and put their heads down and all grab a mouth full of weeds along the way, give them 30 seconds.  Let everyone feel they got in on the action so when they start to move their focus is on that and not on the forage they think they missed.  The delay will be 10% of what it takes to bring them back together if you push them too hard.  

These are lessons learned because I did it the wrong way and pushed cows over fences, through closed gates, back up over the hill, etc and had to think about what I did wrong while wasting time undoing whatever it was my actions led to.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

Thanks a bunch for the pointers jim.. You said ditch the dang glasses and then something about green and i thought OMG how did jim know my glasses fell off my hat right into a green plop today!?    :D


Me entering the paddock caused the first group i encountered to bolt deeper into it.  I went sideways to give them more distance and slow them in place, and then did wide arcs around them staring hard at their eyeballs like a predator choosing. This 1/4 circle packed them up together fairly tight.  Since thats what i wanted i backed way off to reward and quit the staring.  They all stayed put like a parked car, hardly a step from there.

probably 30 more minutes it took me to go tramping all over individually working a handful of independant stragglers, each out of the far edges in their own spots, back into the one herd.  As the stragglers ran up, the whole herd moved as 2 groups into the lane to the feeders.  The scared ones shuffled faster and broke ahead of the calmer ones who just mosey'd.    The only time i made noise was like you said,  coming up behind them a few times because there were cows not looking back at me. i just clapped a little and spoke quiet so not to startle.  The sound didnt move them at all, just gave them notice i was approaching and to stay calm, which worked the whole time.

Any time a cow was antsy to get by me in the lane, i just looked away from it or turned my back to it and let them go by.  They stayed pretty calm despite obvious high stress.  Id rather round them up again calmly in a few minutes than get run over for being impatient and too controlling.  If the cow is scared let it get away and calm itself down. It wants to rejoin the herd by nature as long as you let the herd be a good place to be. Sicking dogs and chasing on the quad is just un necessary stress.  


Praise The Lord

Roxie

We had a Jersey bull stay the night at Bob's Cow Bed and Breakfast because his buyer couldn't take delivery till the next day. We left him there with two Holstein steers we were raising for beef. When we returned the next morning, somehow the bale elevator must have made some smart remark to the bull because he had reduced it to a twisted heap of metal. 

Say when

mike_belben

Take that, metallic contraption!
Praise The Lord

Nebraska

Great for you Mike!  There's more in your writings than I can quote or have enough time to respond to. It's all about your eyes, their eyes, their body language and patience.(edit...and your feet)  Most of the time they will tell you what they are thinking. Painful/ill animals are the most unpredictable  ALWAYS have an out. (Like falling a tree) I've seen three broken legs and at least one concussion,  from things that went south.  Anyway awesome experience, you can do this!

mike_belben

Thanks doc, appreciate the confirmation!  smiley_thumbsup

Shifting back on topic to not swine here..   :D

I brewed compost tea and sprayed it all over yesterday, went farther than i expected and i still have half a barrel to go. Cost nothing, i make compost all year regardless.  Just using a dual fishtank aerator and 2 stones to provide oxygen.






Its not about NPK.. The idea is to grow billions of beneficial aerobic bacteria and microorganisms then innoculate the landscape with them.  Theyre the unseen digesters and soil fertility managers that convert minerals into plant available nutrients, and help keep pest, disease and blight in check
Praise The Lord

chevytaHOE5674

The best cows to work are ones that are used to being worked but aren't overly tame. Too wild and things are impossible, too tame and things are also impossible. Ha

Ianab

Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on October 20, 2021, 01:43:01 AM
The best cows to work are ones that are used to being worked but aren't overly tame. Too wild and things are impossible, too tame and things are also impossible. Ha
Given the option, I'd take the too tame over the too wild  :D
Too tame can get annoying, especially if they get into the habit of sniffing saw gas.  ;) But a quick ear scratch, push her away and a slap on the rump, she wandered off. 


 
But there is a lot of skill to handling stock, some people have it naturally, some can learn it over time, and some just never get it. Same with working dogs, they can read and react to the stock instinctively. Others are just a liability.  
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

HemlockKing

Quote from: Ianab on October 20, 2021, 02:48:41 AM
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on October 20, 2021, 01:43:01 AM
The best cows to work are ones that are used to being worked but aren't overly tame. Too wild and things are impossible, too tame and things are also impossible. Ha
Given the option, I'd take the too tame over the too wild  :D
Too tame can get annoying, especially if they get into the habit of sniffing saw gas.  ;) But a quick ear scratch, push her away and a slap on the rump, she wandered off.


 
But there is a lot of skill to handling stock, some people have it naturally, some can learn it over time, and some just never get it. Same with working dogs, they can read and react to the stock instinctively. Others are just a liability.  
He's staring right at the saw licking his lips !! lol lol 
A1

Roxie

Part of the care of cows is learning that they will lick anything and can digest some surprising things.

We had young heifers that the inside of their nostrils turn bright red and we separated them from the others. The next morning they were down and the vet was called. He couldn't tell us the cause but he drew bloodwork to send to New Bolton Center and was there when the first sick calf passed. 😭 We lost two more and the bloodwork came back with lead poisoning. We walked the meadow in search of the source and at the top of the pasture where the fence ran parallel to the road we found someone had thrown a car battery over the fence.

Our butcher for one of the steers we raised from birth saved the stomach contents from one of them which was a 2L bottle of Pepsi.

If they can reach it they will lick it including but not limited to the side view mirrors on your truck.  
Say when

mike_belben

they got the wiring on my splitter. lousy buggers. 
Praise The Lord

newoodguy78

All of them have nothing but time to get into things 

mudfarmer

The all female highway department is hard at work making a new road bed. They have some boulders and hawthorn stumps to deal with but are making short work of it.



 

This was a side hill but they will have it laser leveled in another week, maybe two.

mike_belben

its a tempting concept but the dozer doesnt eat about 350 days a year!  ;D
Praise The Lord

Thank You Sponsors!