John Deere 440 winch problem

Kodiakmac · January 28, 2020, 01:19:43 PM

Here is some background info. My skidder is a 440 with a model 3305 winch with an internal hydraulic pump. The control (spool) valve is mounted on the left front of the winch.

Problem: the winch will not freespool. When I put the winch control in freespool position, I can see the piston opening up the brake bands. But almost immediately the bands slowly start to tighten up and return to a semi-closed (brake) position. So by the time I get to the back to pull out the cable, I either can't budge it, or I bust my gut trying to get it to freespool.

This would seem to be consistent with a pressure loss somewhere in the system, but I don't see any leaking from the control valve or lines. So I'm thinking the problem may be something to do with the internal pump.

I have gone onto the John Deere site but I cannot determine from the various drawings where the pump is located within the winch housing. I see a rectangular plate with 8 bolts and some kind of center-plug on the bottom right side of the winch - if that is the access for the hydraulic pump, then it looks like the winch will have to come off because there is only a few inches between that rectangular plate and the top of the fuel tank.

So it comes down to 2 questions:

(a) any thoughts, suggestions about what the problem might be and how to remedy it?

(b) is that rectangular plate on the bottom right of the winch the access to the hydraulic pump?

Thanks guys.....

teakwood · January 29, 2020, 07:48:35 AM

You have to open the right (wet) side of the winch to get to the pump, but probably the problem is in the stupid Valve which are a pain to adjust. get a pressure gauge and plug in on top of the winch near the valve. there is a 9/16 plug.

This is very helpful

Put a gauge into the main pressure-tap. Check presssure when in "winch in" position, and then check in "free spool." It should be the same with either. My memory is a bit foggy but I think it ought to be 800 to 1000 PSI. It takes less pressure for the "winch in" to work, so often low pressure first gets noticed when using "free spool."

I've had to pull many winches apart that only had 300-400 PSI and the "winch in" was still working. Probably slipping, but working anyway - with NO free spool at all.

If you have good pressure on "winch in", but low pressure on "free spool" . . . then you know for sure that the valve is the problem. If low in all functions, it could be the valve, pick-up screen, or that tiny little Webster hydraulic pump.

Kodiakmac · January 29, 2020, 10:40:40 AM

Thanks Teakwood. Appreciate that info.

Do you - or does anyone else - have any idea where the hydraulic pump is located in a 3305 winch? And do you know how to get at it?

I have attached a few photos. Photo 1 is the right side of the winch - you can see a small, rounded access cover on the front of the winch towards the right edge of the photo.

Photo 2 is the lower right front corner of the winch. You can see the bottom of that small rounded access cover near the top of the photo. And athe front edge of rectangular plate is visble at the bottom.

3 shows the rectangular plate on the bottom of the winch. It is held on by 8 bolts and there is some kind of bolt/plug/adjustment in the middle of that plate.

4 is the spool valve which is mounted to the left front of the winch.

ohiowoodchuck · January 29, 2020, 05:22:33 PM

I had the exact same problem one time. Try this, unhook the winch control cable from the valve and manually put the winch in free spool and see if you can pull the cable out. For some reason the winch control cable was freezing up and pushing the valve a slight ways past free spool. I had the side cover off just like you did and I noticed the band open up and slowly start closing back on the drum just like you described. I had to buy a new winch control cable. It was around 220 a john deere and I was able to get the exact same pto control cable from a heavy truck place for 65.00

teakwood · January 29, 2020, 06:58:42 PM

You don't need to open the bottom rectangular 8 bolt plate. you can open the round side cover in the first pic (just the big cover with the 8 bolts, don't open the smaller round cover), get out the ring bevel gear with the long shaft, have to dismantle clutch first on the dry side. then you can get to the small pump, its tricky but you can get her out that way.

I have a different valve so i can't help you there, but the principal should be the same.

Do you have the books?

Kodiakmac · January 30, 2020, 01:49:25 PM

Thanks Ohiowoodchuck, but we have tried what you have suggested and it doesn't make a difference.

And thanks Teakwood for your advice. No, I do not have any books except for my Operators Manual...and the only info it gives about the winch is how to adjust the brake bands.

The John Deere online parts site is no help either when it comes to showing where the pump is located within the winch housing. According to the serial number, this is what my pump should look like: https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/67672/referrer/navigation/pgId/286305

But I can't find any indication in the diagrams of the housing where that pump should be.

John Deere Parts Catalog
and...
John Deere Parts Catalog

ohiowoodchuck · January 30, 2020, 05:24:59 PM

The book says to remove winch from machine, drain oil from housing and remove bottom right hand cover and remove pump from unit. Oil psi at 1900 rpm should be 950-1000 psi and at 800 rpm it should be 850 psi.

snowstorm · January 31, 2020, 06:38:37 AM

was there any water in the oil?

teakwood · January 31, 2020, 07:17:10 AM

Quote from: Kodiakmac on January 30, 2020, 01:49:25 PMhttps://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/67672/referrer/navigation/pgId/286305

yes, thats the pump, number 3 (brass googles) and number 24 (seal) is what wears out. i changed the googles 2 years ago and bough 2, just in case. the seal is no longer available.

Have you found the plug for the pressure gauge? it's on top of the winch near the valve. check pressures first, then see if it's the pump or the valve, not easy to know for sure.

I told you where the pump is, it's over the 8bolt square cover on the right front side of the winch housing, drain oil and open side cover and get the pump out. no need to remove the whole winch

Kodiakmac · February 03, 2020, 11:11:59 AM

Quote from: ohiowoodchuck on January 30, 2020, 05:24:59 PM
The book says to remove winch from machine, drain oil from housing and remove bottom right hand cover and remove pump from unit. Oil psi at 1900 rpm should be 950-1000 psi and at 800 rpm it should be 850 psi.

Thanks for that, Ohiowoodchuck.

Kodiakmac · February 03, 2020, 11:12:44 AM

Quote from: snowstorm on January 31, 2020, 06:38:37 AM
was there any water in the oil?

No, oil was/is clear. No water in it.

Kodiakmac · February 03, 2020, 11:22:54 AM

Quote from: teakwood on January 31, 2020, 07:17:10 AM
Quote from: Kodiakmac on January 30, 2020, 01:49:25 PMhttps://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/67672/referrer/navigation/pgId/286305

yes, thats the pump, number 3 (brass googles) and number 24 (seal) is what wears out. i changed the googles 2 years ago and bough 2, just in case. the seal is no longer available.

Have you found the plug for the pressure gauge? it's on top of the winch near the valve. check pressures first, then see if it's the pump or the valve, not easy to know for sure.

I told you where the pump is, it's over the 8bolt square cover on the right front side of the winch housing, drain oil and open side cover and get the pump out. no need to remove the whole winch

Thanks teakwood. Yup, found the plug for the pressure gauge. Just waiting for my friend to come over with his gauge and we will do the tests.
The only 8-bolt square cover on the right side of my winch is right on the bottom....about 2 inches above the fuel tank. The winch will definitely have to come off or the fuel tank would have to come out.
One thing is becoming very clear: parts are getting REALLLY hard to get. I just got off the phone with Nortrax, Ottawa, and the original spool valve is no longer available, the replacement spool valve is no longer available. and the kits are no longer available. I expect it will be the same story if I need pump components.

teakwood · February 04, 2020, 07:32:49 AM

Quote from: Kodiakmac on February 03, 2020, 11:22:54 AMThe only 8-bolt square cover on the right side of my winch is right on the bottom....about 2 inches above the fuel tank

Again: No need to open the square bolt cover, no need to remove winch.
drain oil first, open the 8bolt side cover and get the ring bevel gear with the shaft out (has a snap ring under the clutch cover on the dry side, that has to come of first) and then you will see the pump. its bolted up with 2 9/16" screws

Kodiakmac · February 07, 2020, 09:24:43 AM

Thanks for your help, Teakwood. And you too, Ohiowoodchuck.

Everything is pointing out that the pump is the problem...which leads to the REAL problem: the pump components are no longer available from John Deere. I really want to avoid buying a replacement winch; I can't find any in Ontario or Quebec and the very few that are available in the US are priced out of my league.

Do you have any thoughts/ideas about rigging up some kind of a small external electrical pump that would take the place of the internal one?

sidehill6 · February 07, 2020, 05:45:28 PM

you might try j-k equipment in maine usually have a fair amount of winch parts new and used.

tacks Y · February 08, 2020, 08:36:11 AM

I have one (winch) tried to sell for $1500 with no luck. Not sure it is better than yours but did run 8-10 years ago. It has been sitting since. Open to a good offer and would pay the FF for a sale.

ohiowoodchuck · February 08, 2020, 02:22:57 PM

Try Shaffer's in Illinois. Hurricane truck sales in west virginia or buy the winch from tacks y. He has went out of his way to help me out.

Kodiakmac · February 11, 2020, 10:01:06 AM

Thanks ohiowoodchuck and sidehill 6. Appreciate your help.

tacks Y, I sent you an email. Thanks.

Emersontree · February 11, 2023, 08:38:27 PM

I've got a problem with my winch have 500 psi pressure on the spool in and 1000 on the spool out wondering if anyone knows what the problem I'm having might be?