I thought this would be a more appropriate board to post this and ask for input. I made a land swap in the U.P. and traded my property for another chunk that actually has some good high ground suitable for building a cabin on. That topic can be found here.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,69938.0.html
We want to build a cabin, but we will have to do it with very little money. Our basic wants for the cabin is a living area, kitchen and dining area, bathroom and bedroom, stairway, a little storage and perhaps a mudroom on a first floor. I want the living room area to have a vaulted ceiling, leaving this a 1 and 1/2 story. Upstairs an area for two bedrooms that would be able to open by a divider as one.
My main concern to get started of course is a foundation. As I said, we will never have much cash, so I need to find a way to build it as economically as possible. I should have easy access to a backhoe. The cabin construction I would like to do would be vertical log. I will have access to plenty of smaller trees that should work well for this. I do have the LT30, so I want to use materials from the land as much as I can to complete the cabin. I have lots of rock and stone near by that I may be able to get cheap.
Where do I go from these ideas?
My Grand Uncle and his wife bought a Sears house in the 20's or 30's.
To build the foundation he and his wife would go down to the nearby river, collect a wheelbarrow full of 4 to 8" river stones and, with a harness he built for her, she would pull, he would push the load of stones home. This way he could use less concrete.
Something I should add, is that we are in snow country, so foundation and roof need to reflect that. I'd been considering piers, but then you have the issue of plumbing and heating I don't have any idea if footings have to be below frost. I know there are old places simply built on a slab, but that is expensive now days too, and not sure if it would meet any codes.
I'm full of ideas Jeff, if code allows you could build on piers that go below frost and in one area pour a box (well insulated) for your water & sewer. If Bath & kitchen were back to back plumbing could be kept on one dividing wall or utility closet for easy draining and no need to have any water lines and drains running under the floor.
Just went through with trying to move a cottage at my sisters property, we were trying to save the cottage for relocation, it didn't go too well http://kirkside.tumblr.com (http://kirkside.tumblr.com) scroll down to the video to see demolition. This building was 24' x 26' with two bedrooms up stairs plus a later added sun room of 12'x16' there was no room for a vaulted ceiling in the main part, perhaps the sun room
As I spent some time at this building and thinking about using it as a cottage and looking at how much room the stairs took up I thought if I was starting with nothing I would be tempted to forgo the second floor add three more piers and put the bedrooms on the same level as the rest and have much more roomier bed rooms, it almost seems like free space to put rooms on the second floor but having built a 1 1/2 story house it is a lot more work and more difficult to maintain than a one story.
For what its worth.
There are many ways to save money on foundations, and many solutions if you look very far either into the past or to other cultures. We settled on a way that worked good for us for a long time, but there is always room for new (or old) ideas.
I've worked on a number of projects with little cash at hand -working on 2 right now- and of course the foundation is the first area where you can save...
For me, the key is having the ability to trade my own time in. We spend money for convenience -that is, we put a lot of dollars down so that we don't have to take a lot of time to do something. But when we don't have those dollars, we can cut out the middle man and put that time down. That's always been my philosophy. Since I'm busy starting a business, I am trying to spare the dollars as much as possible which for me translates into a lot of hard hand-tool work. When I had money, I put it all into hand tools knowing they'd come in handy some day. They certainly have.
One foundation is rubble and stone -rubble at the bottom, stone at the top where it is more susceptible to frost damage. For a larger structure, I'll be working off of pillars with a grade beam (more there to provide an air-stop than for support. The pillars and beam will all be made of concrete -but not portland cement concrete. I'll be using a millennia-old (and cheap) concrete made of gypsum or lime, pozzolan (in this case, brick dust) and aggregate (rocks, old concrete, etc.) And in case you don't think this will hold up, well Roman concrete (the same thing) has stood for 2000 years now...
My reason for the smaller foot print, with additional sleeping on a loft/2nd story would be for heating. I want one central heating stove, be it wood or corn or gas, or whatever, to heat the cabin. No ducts or anything like that.
If you can get the materials, I second the rubble trench foundation.
Quote from: Hilltop366 on December 04, 2013, 02:03:01 PM
I'm full of ideas Jeff, if code allows you could build on piers that go below frost and in one area pour a box (well insulated) for your water & sewer. If Bath & kitchen were back to back plumbing could be kept on one dividing wall or utility closet for easy draining and no need to have any water lines and drains running under the floor.
Edit: piers may not fulfill foundation requirements for vertical log wall.
Quote from: Jeff on December 04, 2013, 03:01:57 PM
My reason for the smaller foot print, with additional sleeping on a loft/2nd story would be for heating. I want one central heating stove, be it wood or corn or gas, or whatever, to heat the cabin. No ducts or anything like that.
That would make it easier to heat with a central stove.
Does this sight have access to hydro?
I have a buddy in Traverse City who just put his piers in. He got his lifting poles in the four corners before the ground got hard, too. If you want to do it cheap, this is the way. He came from the Ukraine and has done 95% of the work alone. He has peeled all of his logs and already built a 12'X12' shed for practice, with porch, metal roof and window. He has a full time job, but works every day, all day. I plan to build a cabin, as well, but I'm a lot older than he is and will hire some work out.
We both took the same class from the Log Home Builders Association. The money spent for the class and travel is worth it. It is an awesome method of building a log home, at whatever level of building skills and cash that you have to work with.
Quote from: Hilltop366 on December 04, 2013, 03:47:50 PM
Does this sight have access to hydro?
I don't understand.
hydro means electricity......
I've been following the http://tinyhouseblog.com/ (http://tinyhouseblog.com/) for some time now. They have an archive on the right of different categories. There are a lot of good ideas there. I would do some googling of the tiny house movement. You'll get a lot of people building on trailers, but also a lot of people building permanent structures with very limited budgets.
I'm going into my 3rd winter trying to heat a 3 bedroom cape with just a woodstove on the North end of the house. It's not working so well. ::) A small open plan cabin with the stove in the middle will not take a lot of heat to keep it comfortable.
What are your building code requirements regarding insulation? I know a pure log structure won't fly around here anymore, we need R21 in the walls now. Looking forward to seeing this idea develop.
Then Yes. There will be electricity.
Quotehydro means electricity......
Must come from the days when there were hydroelectric dams producing electricity. The name sticks so that all electricity is assumed to be "hydro".
To me, hydro refers to hydraulics... ::)
Hilltop366 is from Canada. Hydro might mean Hydro-Quebec, the local utility up there. I've seen that quite a few times around the internet.
Once I have an exact cabin site picked out, I'll put a pole in, get electric and try and drive a well. I want to be able to run a mixer and have water.
I know how money is,any chance of going under ground with power? I did go underground from the last pole to my house.
Is this something you would like to get started on next year?
We drove around and kinda took a few homes that we liked and made ours. Is this like a retirement home?
I usually say electricity, but I have noticed that once you go west of New Brunswick the term hydro seemed more common, could just be my imagination.
Sorry to distract from your foundation question.
I built my own footing & 4' foundation forms and reused the materials for the house, the footing forms were used for floor joist for the loft and plywood for the loft floor. This cut the cost by 1/2, I was lucky to have access to some form rods at no cost but you may find a place that rent them as well as forms.
Is your cabin outback too big to move on down the road on a flatbed?
My log home sets on a pressure treateted foundation with crushed stone footers. No concrete and cheap.6.o treatead lumber is
used, not your run of the mill green stuff.
How strict are Chippewa County's zoning laws ???
I pulled up the Chippewa County building dept. and not much info on the website. Foundation depth is 42" minimum, roof snowload is 70 PSF, wind load is 90 mph. Your best bet is to stop in to the building inspector at the Soo when you have time. Looks like he's only in from 8:00 to 10:00 a.m. without an appointment.
When I started planning mine, I was going to build the cabin slab on grade. Cheboygan County would only allow up to 400 sq. ft. My building was 1350, so I had to go with concrete footings and block stem walls, since it was the only thing that I knew.
If you have use of a backhoe, your gonna save on your back and your bank account. I found an old John Deere and couldn't have built without it.
The planning stage is the most fun. Enjoy it. ;)
Boss,
Once you get things planned out, you should seriously consider hosting a Cabin Raising. I am sure that a number of members would come up (or down) and help you out.
Some of the best places to spend money and do it right is the foundation , insulation, doors and windows. A full 8' deep foundation and cellar gives you storage, a place for plumbing, water tank, water heater , electric service and living space while the cabin is being built. Once you get past the foundation you can do all the savings you want on your build. Maybe you could build the foundation with 12" concrete blocks as opposed to pouring concrete walls.
A walk out cellar would be even better.
Whatever route you choose to go, it's probably a good idea to get an autocad program, sketchup is quite common, to make your various design changes before you start building.
also, bear in mind, power poles are generally an expensive proposition... one that may have an effect on site choice. also, most places have specific regulations regarding the distance between and sometimes placement of septic field and well. If you are near a stream/lake/pond you may have riparian zoning to deal with.
... and one thing that is a definite issue, at least where I live. MICE!
those little buggers love to make houses in the insulation between your floor joists, from there they bore holes in your floorboards all over the house in order to have good access to your food.
there is nothing like getting home from a long drive and finding mouse droppings between your sheets.
mouse traps will not come close to getting them because it doesn't get the young ones, mouse poison only results in dead mice in your floor stinking up the whole house for weeks on end... and if a rat gets in there and dies the place will stink for a lot longer than that.
I can say from experience, decomp is not something you ever get used to.
Jeff,
I think we will all advise based on our past experience, what is common in our area and what we like and don't like. My personal experience would vouch for a couple possible systems.
1. Piers or pilings
pier or piling foundations are probably the quickest, cheapest, and most reliable means of gaining a good foundation. My uncles built a fishing cabin along the shores of Lake Erie back in the '40's using 6" steel well casing. They drove them in with an old Fordson tractor that had a rear mount winch with a slip clutch bought surplus off a quaker state oil lease. The cottage still stands today. Having access to plumbing under the building can be a big plus for buildings which are only temporarily used. It allows draining of water lines and other maintenance to performed without cost of a basement and without crawlspace limitations. Pilings can be made from cardboard tubes or PVC pipe filled with concrete mixed on site. They can also be made of PT wood or old telephone pole butts, dock pilings, etc. All are cheap, readily obtainable and transportable.
2. Monolithic Slab on grade with shallow frost protected footings.
If you can get a concrete truck on site and since you have a backhoe at your disposal, this is a great way to do a reliable, permanent foundation. Since your code calls for going pretty deep, I would talk to your local code officials about using a Shallow Frost Protected Footing system which is engineering approved for climates colder than yours. These are regularly used in canada and alaska with good results. They use EPS foam as a thermal break to protect shallow footings from frost heave. This document should answer any questions they might have as to its acceptance or reliability. I beleive you will find the foam cheaper, lighter, and easier to work with than the amount of concrete neccessary for conventional foundation systems.
http://www.huduser.org/publications/pdf/fpsfguide.pdf
Moving on to the structure. A slab will work well for vertical log walls, peir/piling will require some pretty hefty sills. If pier/piling method is used, I would reccommend a hybrid wallsystem using 4 or 5 courses of horizontal "D" log walls bringing you up to window sill height. From this point up you can do vertical logs. This gives you the settlement advantages of vertical with the weight bearing advantages of horizontal. (Doors and stairway will still need some settling consideration.
I would recommend that you look thoroughly at a salt-box style cabin plan as it will give you added head room and space in the upstairs.
Give a lot of consideration to siting location, wind direction, solar exposure and shading. Nothing worse than a cabin that stays dark, damp and cold. If not properly situated you will be stoking your stove in July and August and still have mold and mildew. Plenty of S/SE glazing helps this area immensely. Avoid N/NW glazing at all cost.
Allow for sufficient eave/gable overhang to protect your log walls from the elements and it will save you a lot of maintenance. Nothing worse than spending all you vacation time fixing your cabin rather than enjoying it with hammock or recreation time.
Moving to plumbing, If your stays will be limited in duration and you don't plan to build for re-sale or have lots of company to entertain, you can save a lot of money by using either an incinerator toilet or a composting toilet. This eliminates the need for an expensive septic system as there will be no "black water". Shower, sink, and wash water can be drained into a holding tank and recycled for irrigation purposes.
Similarly, if you use a metal roof, a rain catchment and filtration system can supply all of your potable water or supplement a low yield well. Pre-engineered water systems are available and stamped to meet code. This eliminates a lot of the cost and worry involved with siting, drilling, casing, inspection and testing of a well. I don't know what situation you have in the UP but in many of the Great Lakes regions, you will get gas in a shallow well before you get water. Sand can also be a big problem, plugging your head and pipes and eroding your pump impeller. Rain water can actually be more reliable if you use common sense and don't wash cars etc. with your potable supply.
Electric. It sounds like you will have grid power available. This is cheapest to get started and do your construction. Orient roofs and pitches so PV can be used at a future time if at all possible. On the UP with a hill wind might be a viable option. Consider this as you view the land.
Heat. If wood is plentiful, you can't beat heating with it for cost and convenience. If you are pouring a slab, consider putting some pex pipe in it. Even if you don't connect it now, you will have the option later. Heated floors are really a plus in a cabin and a woodstove heat exchanger is really easy to fab up. You can also use it to pre-heat your hot water.
If you really want to do some interesting stuff to save cost and make maximum use of the backhoe, consider a earth bermed cabin or underground cabin with a south exposed vertical log wall and some skylighting. There are lots of creative ways to do this involving some neat ideas with shipping containers etc. Let your imagination and creativity run wild.
If you can avoid well, septic, and grid Electric, you can pretty much do as you please without the code folks even knowing about your presence. It can have its advantages unless of course you decide to sell to someone who can't pay cash.
Have fun and be safe.
Quote from: WDH on December 04, 2013, 09:02:10 PM
Boss,
Once you get things planned out, you should seriously consider hosting a Cabin Raising. I am sure that a number of members would come up (or down) and help you out.
Jeff - I completely and totally agree with Danny. You set a date and if there is anyway I can be there I will. With me retiring in June of next year, I should be able to be there.
BTW - if my road trip plans go thru as planned, I will be coming thru your area in late July/early August. Crossing into Canada "at the Soo" and coming back in the USA in upstate NY. All this on US Route 2.
Let me know if you want to schedule some work during that time frame.
Bruce
Quote from: Jeff on December 04, 2013, 03:01:57 PM
My reason for the smaller foot print, with additional sleeping on a loft/2nd story would be for heating. I want one central heating stove, be it wood or corn or gas, or whatever, to heat the cabin. No ducts or anything like that.
http://www.richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp
If this idea tickles your fancy, there's new ways, where you build a bell/wall in the house, which heats up the whole house. Bells, batch rockets etc are all discussed here.
http://donkey32.proboards.com/
and here
http://www.permies.com/forums/f-125/rocket-stoves
Two examples of the modern ones i like. Tho, it's in Dutch, but pics are self explanatory.
http://technologieforum.forumatic.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=27
http://batchrocket.hostoi.com/html/foto.html
They can be made dirt cheap.
For your foundation, i don't know what you need there. But here, any concrete has to be 3ft deep. Under the frost line (i live at 5000ft high)
If this can give you an idea. I plan tu use piers for my future building, quite big blocks of concrete, and do a perimeter insulation, just laid on the ground with air entrained concrete blocks, which are insulative. Just to raise the first strawbales off the ground and snow. All this perimeter will be filled with 18" of gravel, insulated underneath by a layer of styrofoam, directly on the ground. This will act as mass for the bottom rocket stove, and i will pour a 4" slab on top of that. This is for the workshop part. I worked out some of the costs, and making the concrete myself, it's dead cheap. Less than 5000€ for foundations.
Obviously you won't do the same, but this can give you ideas.
I was thinkin about suggesting something similar to Satamax. Place some kind of Mass heater in the center
he mentions the rocket stove, I know of the old traditional for from Central Europe known as the Kachelofen
here is a picture like it would look:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29312/ziefen_kachelofen_1g5B15D.jpg)
Such an oven can be made into any configuration you would like, the ones like I have pictured would be placed on a dividing wall with the kitchen on one side, the kitchen side of the stove is where the fire is, and it is also the cooking stove.
I don't think heating will be an issue for me. Lots of options there. :)
Hope this isn't getting sidetracked, especially with Jeff hangin around (eeeeee) but here is a good video showing how the Kachelofen is made, if you like it. Video is German, but you can learn a lot just seeing what he does
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPbprpfQGVY
You can of course make it more simply, using just brick construction without the fancy tiles for example.
I will be building one of these using brick and then plastering over the outside with a tinted plaster to make it like an old oven.
Jeff,
I'll through in my comments/experience so far. But first, I guess I need to take you down from your pedestal I placed you on :D :D I thought, as the King Admin, you knew all!
I'm still in the permitting stages for my cabin out here in California. In retrospect, I probably should have gone permit-less but I'm a little bit visible. I managed to get a well and septic in this year and spent $20k on the well, $6,000 on the septic (materials + engineering) plus $9,800 on backhoe services. I guess I should have bought a used backhoe - I'd be even right now!
My plans for my footings is I need to be 24" below grade as the soil is very granular and the county says that there is no frost heave ??? I will build a Fastwall ICF basement (10' wall but backfilled 2' inside and out). This (because of seismic) will require about a mile of rebar. I've spent $18k on the block and will spend another chunk of money on concrete (don't recall how much right now).
My engineer has helped me design as a full timber frame (along with all you-guys' help) WITHOUT plywood, etc. Though I will need plenty of Simpson ties (seismic again ::)). My last hurdle is fire suppression. It became law in California in 2012 but is following Federal standards so be on the lookout for that!
John
Question for you sketchup users. Does it have any provisions for using log construction? I'm pretty certain I want to do vertical log and using logs for the ridge and rafters/ roofing system.
I've been tempted to just locate the cabin site further back in the hardwoods and just start building. ;)
Jeff, will you require permits to build?
I built mine on 24" round " (4" thick) cement slabs...got the idea from Pappy. I will have to relevel the cabin next spring but its been 5 years and it hasn't settle that bad...Just a thought on the foundation.
Sbishop
Jeff, I have some experience with autocad but after suggesting sketchup yesterday, I thought maybe I should download it and try it out myself :D
a google search shows that sketchup is suitable for designing with logs, one issue I found yesterday is that when you create a cylinder, it doesn't come with a central axis that is easy to snap to. designing a log building you would obviously rely on many different cylinder components for each distinctive piece of the building and their joinery etc... so you need to be able to snap to the axis.
this is a video for creating cylinder objects with center axis' that are easy to snap to, thus making them easy to work with.
one other thing I noticed, there seems to be a lot more support for sketchup than the expensive brand, and while it does seem a bit cruder than autocad, the availability of other peoples help via youtube etc is of great value to me. the price for sketchup pro seems reasonable in comparison and I have seen some very complex timber frame drawings made with it. If complex timber frame joinery can be designed in sketchup, then I believe complex round log joinery can be designed as well.
btw, not sure if this video is designed for grade 8 students or not, but I learned something from it. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Q2pqwV0q8
Great video (though the sound went out about 2/3 through), except he left out a lot of subtle things to know. Like double clicking then right click to make a "component". Making components is KEY to being successful in using Sketchup. Also, it depends on which direction you go when you drag to select!!!
Jeff, it took me about 2 months to really get the hang of Sketchup. I had no experience in CAD or any other 3-d modeling software but I do have a background in (old school) drafting. You need the pro version in order to do Layout (2-d drawings like when you do drafting) to generate your building plans.
I now draw all sorts of things with it (VERY quickly) so I can visualize what I want to make. It's great to be able to spin your project around in space.
I'll probably use the program I have in hand. I keep it in my head. :D Once I have the foundation and and floor deck, I plan on putting down a treated lumber sill. Then on that I think I will use another horizontal two sided log sill of Tamarack. On top of that, I plan on installing my vertical cedar logs. I will use the woodmizer to flatten opposing sides of the vertical logs. I thn plan on coming up with a jig, so I can create double grooves on the sides of each vertical lot, to insert plywood splines. Between the spines I will use some sort of foam. I'll use two sided logs to create window sills, and also more horizontal logs for the first floor top plates. Just some preliminary thoughts. :)
A stick build would get you in cabin quicker and might be easier to deal with the zoning regs but it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission ;D :) Build with green lumber right off the mill. Six inch walls for R-21 insulation. Saw the cedar into 1X for board and batten siding :) What's growing on the place for framing lumber ??? Cedar for vertical logs would have to be dry so it wouldn't shrink creating gaps in the walls. Even with a spline and foam, caulk or chinking of some sort would probably be needed to make up for seasonal movement ???
I'd like to see what you come up with for a grooving jig
QuoteI now draw all sorts of things with it (VERY quickly) so I can visualize what I want to make. It's great to be able to spin your project around in space.
nice to know there is someone to bug for sketchup tips handy ;D provided they allow it on the forum. :)
QuoteI'll probably use the program I have in hand. I keep it in my head. :D
This fellow has been living off-grid for quite a while :) this video may be helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSV7oP43Fi8&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLQDJTgvXoAZUIrP2-CiAAX3vm9CT4OTmt
The vertical logs sound almost like a Norwegian Stave church, only a bit smaller.
Quote from: beenthere on December 04, 2013, 07:13:39 PM
Quotehydro means electricity......
Must come from the days when there were hydroelectric dams producing electricity. The name sticks so that all electricity is assumed to be "hydro".
To me, hydro refers to hydraulics... ::)
In Canada, in more rural parts especially, hydro is all over. Coal power has been extinct here in NB, but we also have nuclear and fuel oil. I live by 5 hydro dams here all connected with the Saint John River. Newfoundland is actually going to send hydro power by cable on the sea floor to NS. Churchill falls is a huge project.
Wish I had some photos of the cedar camp over on the Renous River. At the time I was there last it replaced and old camp. She was rugged though, keep a bear out anyway. ;D
I've got no urge to live off grid. ;)
Quote from: Corley5 on December 06, 2013, 02:28:26 PM
A stick build would get you in cabin quicker and might be easier to deal with the zoning regs but it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission ;D :) Build with green lumber right off the mill. Six inch walls for R-21 insulation. Saw the cedar into 1X for board and batten siding :) What's growing on the place for framing lumber ??? Cedar for vertical logs would have to be dry so it wouldn't shrink creating gaps in the walls. Even with a spline and foam, caulk or chinking of some sort would probably be needed to make up for seasonal movement ???
You can't build with green lumber in Chippewa county from my understanding, however, you can build a log home. There should be no gaps with the cedar If I cut a few months in advance, and use my flatten, groove and spine thought.
Quote from: Jeff on December 06, 2013, 07:23:04 PM
You can't build with green lumber in Chippewa county from my understanding,
Don't call for an inspection until it's been nailed up for a few days. They'll never know the difference ;) :) Can you use rough sawn ??? Does it need a grade stamp ??? Anything log seems like a lot of extra work to me not only during the construction phase but future maintenance too. The best thing I ever did to this house was cover the white pine T&G siding with vinyl :) :) :)
Jeff, might check on the Log Home Builders Association Forum site. Although they build with horizontal logs they are butt and pass and held together with rebar. So minimum shrinking, shifting or settlingbecause logs are some whate dry and rebar holds them in place. Good R value because of the mass. They have a class in March, 2013 in Las Vegas, NV. The information provided covers entire construction of building and membership in the LBA. Just my two cents, might be worth checking out. Do not let any obstacles prevent you from this goal. It is a good one, no matter how it gets done.
All due respect to everyone and their suggestions, but if Jeff has chosen vertical log construction I get the feeling he has made that choice knowledgeably and for sound reasons. I don't think people should feel like they need to talk him out of his choice or suggest their alternative, etc.
I for one would like to see his take on this method, as it's not one that's done very often here.
Jeff,
you might want to read about Dorthy Ainsworth building her vertical timber home on the Backwoods Home Magazine website. She learned about building and did all the work herself from collecting the timber to pounding the nails. When she was doing the finish work, staining and varnishing, her home burned to the ground and she had to do everything over again. It helps a person to realize they are limited only by their own fears.
If you would allow people to help, I'm sure there would be a ready pool of workers available. For all the benefit we receive from the Forestry Forum it would be great to give a little back.
What are the reason's for building your cabin?
Is this a getaway or something for future investment?
Here is a video of building one.
http://vimeo.com/4399176
Quote from: Howdy on December 06, 2013, 11:20:54 PM
Jeff,
you might want to read about Dorthy Ainsworth building her vertical timber home on the Backwoods Home Magazine website.
I'd been aware of Dorthy's story for many years. Amazing. :)
Beenthere funny you should post that video, they are my neighbors from about 4 miles UP the road. Real nice folks with some very interesting ideas. haha
Be aware to, that end grain will break down (rot) quicker than side grain. Simply because there is a whicking affect. So design stuff to protect the ends as much as possible.
Vinyl siding on white pine, must be a sacrilege isn't it? :D The darn stuff fades terrible, dad had to paint the once green vinyl around the windows. Faded bad, in less than 10 years.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 07, 2013, 04:05:37 AM
Vinyl siding on white pine, must be a sacrilege isn't it? :D The darn stuff fades terrible, dad had to paint the once green vinyl around the windows. Faded bad, in less than 10 years.
It's an Alcoa product with a lifetime warranty. I've got much more fun things to do than maintain a wooden exterior on the place I live ;D :D :) I almost put pole barn steel on. The price was comparable :)
Be sure to put extra long eaves on to keep the rain splash away from the wood :) :)
If that warranty is like asphalt 25 year shingles, I wouldn't hold my breath. ;) In my experience warranty on building material ain't worth much. Building maintenance is part of life. Unless like some of dad's uncles who let stuff fall down around them. :D ;)
I'm just poking at ya. Everyone has their own ways. ;D
Donk, that is why I would use Northern white cedar, using a treated plate and a horizontal beam as starters. The bottoms of the vertical lots would be beveled off and it would all be well above grade on a foundation. I would also use large roof overhangs. The wood can only wick water if it is standing in water, other wise, it would actually drain off anything.
I hear ya on the warranty. Our home here has a wood foundation that is guaranteed for 100 years. "They" will replace the material if it rots. That's not installing it, just replacing it. If one ever has to make a claim and succeed, You'd have a rotten foundation and a new pile of treated wood sitting beside it.
Not trying to hyjack the thread, but I've got a question about the roof in beenthere's video. Can anyone tell me why they left an air gap under the tin around the perimeter of the roof? Just wondering what the reason would be.
Jeff, it's been a while since I've been on much, but it seems like you've been thinking vertical log for a few years now so I want talk about stick building or R42 walls. LOL
Quote from: beenthere on December 06, 2013, 11:31:13 PM
Here is a video of building one.
Wow That is a lot of work. I like the look better than horizontal logs.
Quote from: Holmes on December 07, 2013, 09:30:37 AM
Quote from: beenthere on December 06, 2013, 11:31:13 PM
Here is a video of building one.
Wow That is a lot of work. I like the look better than horizontal logs.
I forgot to mention, that the family that built that cabin has like 10 kids that took a long while to build the cabin.
QuoteCan anyone tell me why they left an air gap under the tin around the perimeter of the roof?
I figured that was for venting and taking care of the condensation that occurs on the lower side of metal roofing.
What is the title of that movie? It won't load on my computer.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 07, 2013, 12:26:39 PM
What is the title of that movie? It won't load on my computer.
The video I posted?
Building a vertical log cabin Andrew Lund
Here is a site that shows some vertical log.
http://www.stockadestyleloghomes.ca/winter-2002-spring-2003-log-home-build-bungalow.html
Do a google image search for Greensted Church in Essex, vertical log construction dating possibly to the mid 9th century -the oldest wooden church in the world.
I do agree with Corley 5 on the stick built. It takes less wood and is faster. Use your logs for the roof and cut your own framing wood.
The other thing I hope you are aware of is log sided cabins are not well suited for occasional use in cold climates. The logs are the insulation. They are called a thermal mass and resist changes in temperature. However that works against you in the winter if your visit is 2, 3 or 4 days when you will spend much of that time pouring the heat into the log walls of the cabin just to get the temperature up to livable levels. And during that time the walls will be cold and clammy because of the cold and moisture in the cabin.
Not trying to talk you out of a log sided cabin, just making you aware of some of the disadvantages. The log cabins work good if they are heated all the time.
Gary
Perhaps this is the origin of my want to build a vertical log cabin? This picture was taken when I was ten years old. I built it as a cup scout project. I still have it. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/Scan0006.jpg)
Quote from: Jeff on December 07, 2013, 12:45:00 PM
Here is a site that shows some vertical log.
http://www.stockadestyleloghomes.ca/winter-2002-spring-2003-log-home-build-bungalow.html
Jeff, carefull, Beenthere will pop around, and tell you off for posting offsite pictures ;D :D ;D
I posted a link to a webpage, I did not link to photos. I did not have any permission to simply post the photos. We very much appreciate it when Beenthere or other members help alert us to things.
Quote from: D L Bahler on December 06, 2013, 02:46:28 PM
I'd like to see what you come up with for a grooving jig
I'm thinking this is actually going to be quite easy. Since I am planning on flattening two sides of the log on the wood-mizer, I'm thinking I can make the groove on there as well. I just need to come up with something to mount on the bandmill head that will do the cutting, then run it down one side of the log, flip it, and run it down the other, then use a chainsaw to connect the two lines when I groove the ends of the logs. I may not have mentioned that. I plan on grooving and splining the ends as well.
Jeff, check the NFU32 from mafell.
I'm prety sure you can cobble something like this for a circular saw.
Another idea, somehing like few lancelot blade from king arthur carving supplies, or something like an arbortech tuff cut. On some motor or arbor. Prety sure there's plenty of ways. Shaper extendable tenon or grooving cutters can do the job too. Dado blades. So many solutions.
Or just an electric chainsaw on a mount.
Could your, a, debark-er do it if you took the blade off? Maybe do them a batch at a time.
Quote from: Jeff on December 08, 2013, 12:57:25 PM
Or just an electric chainsaw on a mount.
I thought you wanted to groove wide, something to fit a 13/16th to 1 inch thick plank. Mind you, even if going thin grove, i think carbide inserts will last longer. With the chainsaw, you might end up spending your time sharpening. I don't know for sure. But seeing the pace i'm going at through my chains, if it was for me, i'd avoid it at all costs.
A chainsaw will cut a very longtime in clean wood. It would not be an issue. We use to double end trim whole bundles of lumber with a chainsaw with a 4' bar and do truckloads between sharpening. There is absolutely zero need for carbide in clean wood. 3/8" kerf is all it would need. The spline is not for structure.
Jeff, the logs on the cabin in my avatar are splined just like you are thinking. They are horizontal, but the idea is the same. I went ahead and cut the third side into a D shape which gives a smooth inside wall. The grooves for the splines were cut with a router and straight bit. The resulting wall is almost airtight with no chinking despite some shrinkage. Vertical logs is a good idea, allows usage of short logs, just need a few long ones for plates and sills. spline the top and bottoms of the logs to match a groove in the sill and plate. By the time you build a stick wall and put up siding and paneling, I'm thinking the vertical log wall would be quicker, and you have a finished product.. Search "pine log cabin". Horizontal logs but might give you some ideas. Go for it..
Quote from: Jeff on December 08, 2013, 12:37:02 PM
Quote from: D L Bahler on December 06, 2013, 02:46:28 PM
I'd like to see what you come up with for a grooving jig
I'm thinking this is actually going to be quite easy. Since I am planning on flattening two sides of the log on the wood-mizer, I'm thinking I can make the groove on there as well. I just need to come up with something to mount on the bandmill head that will do the cutting, then run it down one side of the log, flip it, and run it down the other, then use a chainsaw to connect the two lines when I groove the ends of the logs. I may not have mentioned that. I plan on grooving and splining the ends as well.
As log groover this could/should work:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10095/DSCF1416-s-2.JPG)
Jim Rogers
Is that a special saw Jim?
That looks just like my Makita saw, with the saw guard off. Looks diffearant without that on.
The picture of your model reminds me of the fort they had on the TV series back in the 60-70's called 'The Forest Rangers'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpV4-JlwWt0
QuoteIs that a special saw Jim?
As far as I can remember, no. It was just a regular skil saw that the owner took and put a stack of sawblades into to make a groove cutter.
Jim Rogers
Make sure the saw guard is removed!!!!
Gary makes a good point about the thermal mass of a log home and one thing you do not do is let the temp drop in the winter. I made that mistake once. It took about a cord of wood to heat it back up! Very easy to heat if you keep the temp steady however. Not trying to talk you out of logs as long as you are aware of it, I love mine
Odds are the cabin would not get short weekend type use in cold weather. We have the same issue at my Sisters cabin if we go up when it is cold. It takes a long time to heat up the cabin and everything in the cabin.
I groove logs a lot, and hope to do it a lot more in the future. In the log style I learned -and hope to teach others- we stack logs with a spline between them, no chinking. Been done for thousands of years in the Alps. I'm always looking for better ways of cutting those grooves -i need narrow spline groves and the ability to cut wide (1 1/2") channels to carry floor planks and Jim's solution is the best thing short of a dedicated moulder/groover machine (which I might have to break down and build some day)
If I'd have a lucas type mill with the big circular head, it would be easy to modify that to run as a groover.
The old way, of course, if to chop the grooves out with a chisel -those little ones you can actually knock out really fast. But here a saw sounds nice to me...
Hey Jeff, I have a cabin that's not terribly far from you. It's over near eagle River Wisconsin. We went through a similar process about twelve years ago. Had the same issues and ideas. We are also off the grid and build everything with materials off the land. If you feel like making the trip over, I could show ya around and chew the fat. Maybe you can get some useful ideas. We have plenty of room if you want to bring the bride along.
I've completed the first steps. I just got a letter from Chippewa county after sending in the information and request for an official address. We now have an official U.P. address! 8)
Do they issue a plaque with civic number on it? ;D
They tell you where you can go buy one.
With all the taxes one pays, or is gonna pay, you'd think they'd issue one. We all got free ones here when we went 911 in 1998.
PLEASE DISPLAY YOUR ADDRESS
Chippewa County address signs are a flat, white metal pl
ate. Two sizes are available – one, having 4 spaces,
the other, with 6 spaces. Signs are only available in
Chippewa County (see below) The owner purchases the
plate, the number stickers, and the direction (N S E W) s
ticker. The plate can be bolted to a post. (Article V,
Chippewa County Address Ordinance)
The address sign is to be displayed:
1.
Within 75 feet of centerline of th
e road upon which address is assigned.
2. At a minimum height of 5 feet (60 inches).
3. Facing the road.
4.
In a horizontal position.
If there is a structure within 75 feet of the centerline of
the road, and the structure is visible from the road, the
sign can go on the building following the rules shown above. Otherwise, the sign should be displayed on a
post on either side of the driveway, near where the dr
iveway meets the road, following the above 4 rules.
The responsibility for enforcement of address signs rests
with the Office of Emergency Services. The Rural
Addressing Ordinance allows for the imposition of $3
00 fine for failure to post the assigned address.
ADDRESS SIGNS/NUMBERS ARE AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE
AT THE FOLLOWING LOCATIONS:
Strongs General Store
(Strongs
)
Detour Building Center
(Detour)
Sune's Home Center
(Drummond)
The Home Center
(Kinross
)
Pickford Building Center & Whiskey River Building Supplies
Coast to Coast
(Pickford
)
(Rudyard
)
Parker's Ace Hardware Passmore's Hardware
(Brimley)
(Downtown Soo
) Paradise True Value Inc (Paradise)
Can't get any planer than that. ;D Your lucky you have so many places that do signs. Ours probably came from Dorchester prison. :D ;D
QuoteWe all got free ones here when we went 911 in 1998.
SD
Nothing is free.
looking forward to seeing progress reports Jeff ;)
In our area, we have 911 signs as well that are green with reflective numbers. WOuldn't be hard to make that up but the township doesn't charge very much for them
Quote from: beenthere on December 13, 2013, 07:03:41 PM
QuoteWe all got free ones here when we went 911 in 1998.
SD
Nothing is free.
Just call it a tax credit. 8)
Things are perhaps starting to come together. I hope. Last week I went up to Lou's for a visit and actually ended up getting stuck up there a couple extra days due to some pretty extreme winter weather.
Lou is currently having some logging done on his property. several large clear cuts for habitat. The loggers are actually using the powerline on my new property to deck wood and as way in and out to where they are cutting on Lou's. My idea was to go up and inquire about buying what cedar I could afford right now from them off of Lou's. That way I'd have a good start towards what I need. Well, I went bearing gifts. A big pot of Venison soup, and when we visited the job site, we invited the two man crew back to Lou's for lunch the next day. There is a processor operator and a Forwarder operator. As it turns out, the processor operator had to leave early, but Jeff, the forwarder guy came. I talked with him about what I was wanting to do, and he said he would talk to the crew owner that night and see about a price.
Later that evening, Jeff called Lou's place to let him know that he had had supper with Jim the owner, and Explained to him what I was wanting to buy. I'm guessing, because they are using my property that this is why this happened, but Jim said just to give me 5 cord of 100" cabin grade bolts, 7" to 11" in diameter. :) I've since asked Lou to see if I can get two more cord, but I wish to pay for that. Currently they are getting $195 a cord picked up at the woods, so that is a pretty valuable gesture on their part to me. I believe they are going to take the cedar right over to the hardwoods high ground on the front of my property closer to where we will choose the cabin site so I don't have to fight that wet powerline to get them out. My plan is when winter breaks, to go up and crib the wood so it is off the ground and starts drying. Northern White cedar dries quite rapidly.
I have also made a swap with Corley5 for some framing lumber for my floor joists and such. He is going to be into some real good big tooth aspen on an upcoming job so that is what I'll be using. Greg is better equipped to handle bigger and longer wood than I with my lt30.
Right now I am trying to figure out a floor plan. If it was just me, this would be easy, but mamma didn't raise a dummy, so I know that Tammy's wants supersede my simple requirements. :)
So, I believe I am going to have enough 8' cedar to take care of the outside walls of the vertical log cabin. I should be set with Greg for framing lumber. Once I get a floor plan set, I can then start worrying about what I need for the roof framing. That is my big concern, as I want to use probably spruce or fir in the round, and I have never ever done anything like that before.
So, here is what I have tentative so far that I hope to accomplish this coming year as a minimum.
1. Choose the cabin site.
2. Get power to the site.
3. Drive a well.
4. Excavate for the foundation, and put in concrete footings and cement block foundation.
5. Build the cabin deck and have it ready to start to build the cabin.
Here are a some pictures of the power line on my property. They have a heck of a road froze in on it. :) When Jeff the forwarder operator found out they were actually using my property, he said, hey man, I'm sorry, I've been trimming off some branches and stuff on some of your trees to try and keep everything as far to the edge as I can to stay away from those wires. I told him that I completely understand and to do what ever they needed to do to stay save. I actually think that is how I ended up with some free wood, in appreciation for being decent with them. I know that can go the other way from my time in the woods. I'd like to think it was my most excellent soup that sealed the deal, but I'm sure it wasn't. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/logging-3.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/logging-4.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/logging-5.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/logging-1.jpg)
This last photo is at the very back of my property looking into Lou's where they are cutting right now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/logging-2.jpg)
How far you have to bring power in? Cost me $100 a foot. :o I have a 500 foot driveway. ::)
Cfarm,
Wow, the really stick it to you up there for bringing in power. I had 900 ft to bring it in. For a 400Amp buried service it cost me just over 1200 total.
Jeff,
Way to go with the venison soup! That's a huge score in materials and labor. Looks like some pretty country. Makes me miss being up north and wish we could run snowmobiles down here in VA more than once a winter.
Ray, I don't know yet as I don't know where the cabin is going to be. I can't imagine it costing any where near that. The power lines are already on my property. You can just see one of the wires here in this photo I took last week. The cabin will be somewhere on the other side of those spruce and fir back in the hardwoods. I want it far enough away from the evergreens that I get southern exposure light in the winter when the deciduous trees do not have leaves, and the shade of those trees in the summer when they do.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/jeffs-property1.jpg)
Things are moving right along. 8) 8)
Right now I am contemplating the need for two specialty tools. I have to come up with a way to be able to cut my vertical log cabin logs off square on both ends so they stand plumb. I plan on two siding them with a centered pith, so one way will not be hard to square, but somehow the taper needs to be accounted for in the other dimension. I also have to come up with a way to cut two 1/2" wide grooves, 1 1/2" a part, 1 inch deep down the flattened sides of my posts. Something I can probably mount on my lt-30 and then just run the sawhead down to make nice straight cuts.
Nice score on the logs. It just goes to show what the right attitude can do. Your prospective build will be exciting to watch. 8)
Jeff,
Lay out the logs as they will stand in the wall, perhaps with any side flattening you may do already done. Then measure on both ends how you want the wall to come out and snap lines on the tops and bottoms.
This is the easy way, it takes all the guesswork and complicated math out, and is guaranteed to be accurate.
That's how I learned how to lay out horizontal log walls, because it's what you have to do if you want things to line up perfectly. The concept works just as well if the logs are tuned around.
Also while they are set like that, you mark where any openings will be.
When laying out the logs, alternate the direction they are set. One log butt-down, the next butt-up, and so forth. That way the wall stays straight and you won't need to manufacture some wonky tapered piece to make things come out right. This is, unless you are using the sawmill to eliminate taper altogether.
D L Bahler, at first blush, that sounds like the logical way to do it, but it won't work. The logs will be of random diameter between 7 and 11 inches. two opposing sides will be flattened with the sawmill, just enough to get rid of the taper, so the sizes will remain random. These flat sides will receive two grooves an inch deep an inch and a half apart. The grooves are for dual splines. Between the splines there will be a strip of closed cell foam insulation placed, and that will be compressed between the logs. As I said, only two sides are flattened and placed together, leaving inside and outside rounded surfaces. These are going to be random as well. So, there will be no way to actually snap a line on these random curved surfaces. The cuts will have to be made at 90° to the flat sides, and 90° to the grooves cut for the splices.
And you know what was a kick in the gut with power? We called them about the end January to get a plan with the power on what I wanted. If I would of just called them in Dec and got a work number all the other customers would of paid my installation. And than I also got another kick in the gut. Something about who owns the poles,the phone company would of been cheaper,but since CMP,the power company owed the poles it was higher. I got the you know what put to me to get power. But everything else with the house came out without any other horror stories. Besides a $500 blasting job to get rid of one of Gordon Hill rocks in the bedroom,it all went wonderful.
Back a few years ago a fellow set up a camp ground on the back of his land and needed power. It was several thousand dollars for about 6 poles. But if he sold lots and had others hook up on his line he got rebates on the power setup. Sure seems pricy when everyone got it for free when it was first installed along the main roads. The Irvings had a commercial saw mill out in the wilderness of Deersdale, so power had to be brought in from afair to power it. They never had to pay a dime for it and on top, their rate is way lower than mine. How is that fair? ::)
The people above me brought power in. Two and ½ miles, are you ready?? $150,000 That was back in the mid '80.
The Power company is under new ownership in Northern Maine and changed that policy a couple years back.
I thought it was going to cost me around 18 grand but they only charged me 375.00 to come in 350 feet, as far as they could put a 2 pole length.
An electrician charged me around 500 for a power pole set up with Box and breakers. I bought underground wire to the well head from there. That part wasn't cheap but he got me the wire at cost. I have a few more hundred feet of wire needed to run underground to the cabin. That will come this year.
Waiting for the cut list 8) 8)
Jeff. I had over 1000 ft. to bring my power. Cost me just the price of pvc pipe. I found several old home places, burned out houses, and abandended well sites. Removed the abandoned wire and reasembled it at my place. I put junction boxes at the splices for access in the event of a wire failure. Saved thousands. been there for 16 years no issues yet.
I've made grooves for a spline with the chain saw . Put a straight edge down the center of the log . Clamp a piece of 1/2" plywood to each side of the bar to slide along the straight edge and to act as as a depth gauge . Run along both sides of your staight edge and you should have nice grooves but not for 1/2" . A 3/8" fits in snugly . For clamp I got one called cant twist from an electrical supply place . scouter Joe
I'm trying to come up with something that I could somehow mount on the sawhead of the woodmizer to create my spline grooves after I have two sides flattened. This way you could position the log, and just run the head down the bed to get straight grooves, flop the log over, position it, and do it again. I need to find a way to do this with some sort of speed or it would take a whole summer just to cut the grooves.
Lets say there are 200 vertical logs (I don't think there will be that many) Each log is 8 ft long. Each log gets 2 grooves on each side. That's 4 grooves per log. 32 ft of groove per log. That is 6400 feet of 3/8's (thanks Joe) groove total. That's a crazy amount.
Here is something I put together in photoshop this morning. I realize it has positioning issues, but the basic idea of somehow bolting two chainsaw bards together with pipe spacers, then driving those chains together somehow seems to me to be the answer. Maybe free hand would be quicker in cedar, I just don't know, but it seems like a more automated system might be worth the effort.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/groovemaker.jpg)
Are the grooves for a spline, or what?
Mount two routers :)
Couple of small circle saws might be simpler? I'm thinking like would be mounted in an edger?
Ian
Instead of chainsaw bars.... what about brush cutting blades off a weed eater or the side grinder blades that have the "teeth" like a chainsaw. You'd still get 3/8 wide cuts but may be easy to make a mount for, just mount the blades on a shaft using pillar block bearings.
Quotegrinder blades that have the "teeth" like a chainsaw
Something like these?
http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Tools-Lancelot-Woodcarving-Teeth/dp/B00004RHL6 (http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Tools-Lancelot-Woodcarving-Teeth/dp/B00004RHL6)
Jeff, two ideas come to mind re cutting the grooves. The first would be a 5 hp electric motor with a 5/8" diameter extended shaft. Mount a pair of dado blades to the shaft with a spacer in-between them, and mount the motor on some type of hinge mechanism so that you can mount it to the sawhead and hinge it in and out of place.
The second idea is to do something similar, but use a router with an appropriately sized bit. I think that the dado blades would be faster though.
The old saying "more than one way to skin a cat" comes to mind.
I will add my ideas to the list.
I would vote for a carbide dado blade myself.
It will stay sharper longer than anything else
can make dado any size you want.
less likely to wander side to side compared to the bar and chain once the bar grove gets worn
you won't have to oil it
rotating parallel to the direction of the cut will make it easier than a router to keep it tracking.
If going with the idea of attaching the grove cutter to the bandsaw perhaps using the motor of an radial arm saw would work, they are designed to accept a dado blade, more power than a skill saw made to be held up from the top of the saw usually easy to find for little cost.
If the saw for cutting the groves was mounted to a plate that had a pivot bolt that was off centre from the edge of the blade you could cut one grove in one direction then rotate the saw for the return cut which would move the blade over the required amount.
I have an idea that cutting the groves will be like cutting wood with a portable mill, it will take more time handling and setting the logs than it will take to do the cutting. It would be nice to be able to flatten the log and then cut the groves before turning to reduce handling the logs a bunch of times, this would require to be able to centre the log side to side and adjust for taper, 2 "V" shaped notches fastened to the bunks might work for centring the log with one end height adjustable.
Next problem would be to line up the groves on the other side of the logs with the first side, if the "V" notches were easily removed or flipped out of the way a set of blocks the same width as the groves on the mill bunks would position the log for the second cut and groves.
Once you have the log flattened and grooved it will give you something to square the ends by because the groves and the flats are going to be plumb when the logs are set up, some sort of jig that uses the groves and the flat part of the log to hold a saw 90° on the horizontal to the groves and 90° vertical of the flat should make the end cuts correct.
Im' sure it's not all thought out but there might be something in my ramblings that could be used.
p.s great score on the logs!
Easiest way would be to square three sides and run them across a shaper to cut the grooves ;) :) Even easier would be a stick build ;D ;) :) That said I'd look at mounting two routers on a piece of plate steel side by side or staggered if needed to get the right spacing for the grooves and then mount the plate to the mill cutter head in some way. Motors etc are all there add the desired bit and go. No need for motors, shafts, bearings, sprockets, chains, bars, belts, blades, engineering, machine work, trial and error etc :) Well maybe some trial and error ;) ;D The main thing would be sizing the routers and attaching the apparatus to the mill. More HP is always better but how much would be needed ??? If you wanted to get real fancy each router could be mounted to its own plate which could then be bolted to pieces of angle iron with slots for adjustment. The angle would be attached in some way to the mill.
I'm looking forward to seeing this type of build :) It's gonna be 8) Waiting for the cut list :)
From someone who has been there and done that, the most practical way is a big husky router with a guide and appropriate straight cut bit. Why 2 splines ? I went with one, the joints are just about air tight. Think about the 4 corner logs and the sills and plates also. I'll try to get a pic of my router and guide setup and post same...
ps how's the eye ?
Sounds like it's coming together for you. The grove thing I'm not sure, but maybe after you flatten the side with the log on the mill you can screw a template centered with the pith and have a big or very good router with a bit that has a bearing on it. Walk down, then up with it. The log won't move because it will be in the mill clamp then flip and do the other side, clamp, flatten, router.
I have never done it so I'm not sure. good luck
Quote from: pineywoods on February 01, 2014, 10:15:16 PM
ps how's the eye ?
Not good. I go back to the specialist Tuesday Morning. The vision is still obstructed, maybe the same, maybe worse, not sure. I'be been outside a lot lately and outside in the bright and the snow it is horrible. Newer concern is that as of today, I am getting the flashing for the first time in the left eye now. Been going on all day. No problem with vision in it though.
Quote from: pineywoods on February 01, 2014, 10:15:16 PM
Why 2 splines ?
Mostly for the insulation factor. As the logs dry, there will be a little gaping. That is what the spines are for. If you are using a single spline, you only have 3/8's of an inch between you and the oncoming ice age. ;) I figure with a dual spline, and some closed cell foam between the splines, it should be much better. I have found a couple of references to this method being used in this type of construction. Finding anything on Vertical log construction is tough, as it seems to be pretty rare.
I think a router type bit would be slow and as mentioned, perhaps prone to wandering. My latest vision is more like what was mentioned before by Scouter Joe. But my idea would be to make a template our of a piece of plywood. It would act like a track. The center would be cut out at the right dimension, that when you secured it to the top of the log that has already had a side flattened, you could either run a skill saw that cut a 3/8 kerp up one side, then turn and come back down the other to complete both grooves, or, use a chainsaw that has some sort of block bolted to the bar to use as a sled, to determine groove location and depth. This is something I can experiment with when our 8 ft piles of snow start disappearing so I can find some wood! I can just practice on some 6/4 tamarack I have out here. If I can cut 1" deep grooves in that, cedar will be a breeze. :)
If you're thinking skill saw with a dado blade or maybe a couple regular blades stacked (like was discussed), you could probably use a piece of 1/2" square tubing for a guide. Shim your blade so it's a 1/2" from the edge of the skill saw plate. Drill a few screw holes in the tubing to secure it and pop a line down the log to make sure you get it straight. If your blade is 1/2" from the tubing, go down one side and come back up the other, you should wind up with two grooves 1 1/2" apart. If you've got a bunch of logs to groove I think I'd rather have the metal skill saw guide against the metal tubing for longevity. Most skill saws come with a guide, but I'm thinking if you stack the blades for a 3/8 groove, you're going to wind up pretty close to 1/2" from outer edge of blade to outer edge of the saws base. And you could go with bigger or smaller tubing depending on what actual distance winds up being.
I think the cook camp my grandfather built back a lifetime ago (still used by new owner) was vertical logs. In fact I'm quite positive. That was before hydro electric dams went it. I mention this because it had to be moved up hill from the old camp site before the Tobique River (Tobique Narrows dam) head pond flooded (or was going to). :) It was the first dam around here and was built at the old family homestead (grandfather's grandfather Nimrod). I have a photo when the dam was being constructed in the 50's, there is also some silent film.
I see that Makita makes a groove cutter. Not cheep but who knows you might be able to find a used one.
I've bent a circular saw blade before, that made a much wider kerf.
Sometimes there is no good substitute for the right tool. The Makita 8303a Groove cutter is the correct tool for the job. It can be had new for just south of 700.00, used for about half that. You will still need to buy a slot cutting bit for it in the 1/2" size. It will cut grooves up to 1-7/32" deep.
A 1/2" groove, 1" deep is a lot of material to try and remove in a single pass, cutting two of these in a single pass would call for a beast of a motor and a very fine adjustment in travel speed. I don't think they make a router that would handle this amount of material removal in a single pass. Using a circular saw and making kerf cuts would require a LOT of passes and take all summer for the number of logs you will have.
So lets say you can't afford the makita and have to build something to do it on the cheap. I have two different thoughts. The first is using something similar to a Log Wizard with the cutter head blade profile modified to cut 2 grooves rather than a straight cut. This could be run on a standard chainsaw without any fabrication and freehanded along a stright edge or it could be fastened to your mill head but you would need to have some kind of precision centering apparatus to ensure each log was in perfect alignment. 2 - 1/2" splines does not give you much room for alignment error. I suspect log assembly will have its challenges.
The second idea would be to start with a three wing 1/2' slot cutter.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/3wingslotcutter.jpg)
This is pretty standard and can be had for about 25.00 at any big box. They fit a 5/16 arbor and are typically run on a 1/4" or 1/2" shank. This would be mounted up similar to what SCsmith says.
I think by the time you get everything fabricated and assembled with second method you will have close to the cost of a used groove cutter in it and you will have spent your time in fabrication rather than grooving logs.
Buy the 8303a with what you have saved on logs and when you are done, sell it or rent it out and get most of your money back.
Here's an idea, buy a swingblade mill and you can cut your logs and grooves. 8)
When I ran the power for the Tenn house I figured it would cost more than the well. Ended up 3/4 mile of wire and poles cost $814.00. Well was $14K.
Power Co did me right. Well guy, that's another story.
We're spoiled in Indiana
If they don't have to run a line more than 150 feet without a pole, it's free. If they have to add a few poles the line out, it's free.
Probably has more to do with the utility companies' policy, than the state.
Probably. Most of the state is under Duke Energy and a lot of the remainder is local/multi-county co-ops
I can guarantee you I will find a way to do it on the cheap and not spend that kind of money on any tool. My knack of coming up with ways to do something cheap by getting by with what is available is why this entire forum exists today. :D
You can do it Jeff! Yes
I'm a full supporter of doing things on the cheap
I'm tearing down an old block house to use the blocks for a barn foundation, because I don't want to buy new concrete blocks.
I don't mind giving myself extra work if I can save some money along the way...
Also I love the idea of doing things for yourself. My philosophy is why buy what I can do for myself? There's something to be said in MAKING things.
Raider Bill,my well came in at $1500,140 feet,40gpm. 8) Guess that makes the power easier to bare now.
I have heard of other horror stories with wells.
I'm 'self sufficient' in many ways to. I do what I can and then buy what I need. It's the 'wants' that start costing a lot of money. :) :D
We only have a couple well drilling companies around here. They have been doing it for 30 years at least. The fly by the seat of the pants types passing themselves off as company experts have no place with well drilling. You have to know what your doing or you'd be run out of town.
Even the best of the well drilling companies cannot know for certain what they are going to run into when poking that hole in the ground.
Nothing much to do with "fly by the seat". ;)
Doubt there are many, even large ones that have been around more than 30 years, that will guarantee a hole with water for a fixed price.
Poor Jeff,more well stories. A guy at work was changed over $7000 for his. I thnk they was going to charge him more than ten,and he had a fit and was asked to pay 7 grand.I forgot how far down they went,700 feet? But I do remember the rest of the story. They asked this guy what he wanted to do,not getting much water. He said,pull out,set over 20 feet go down 8 feet and go staight for about 150 feet to my neighbors well that is getting 30gpm. :o
203 feet cost me 5300.00 with pump and large pressure tank.
No fixed price beenthere, but there is no circus. From the tone of Bill's post I'm assuming he had a circus show. ;) There is a reason there are long term well drillers that everyone relies on. Quality of work is one and regulation is another. Keeps the cash and dash types out of it.
Do I get the top prize? For a 145' well (getting 60gpm) I paid $21k (because $7k was for a dry well >:(). Concentric drilling is REALLY expensive! :(
I've never heard of a well being more than $3500 tops around here. Maybe there is, just never heard of those prices. ;) Heck the house down the road I told them where to drill, and so much water coming out of that artesian they can't even hold back. ;D
For cutting the grooves, would it be possible to mount a chain saw, in a "beam machine" type of jig, at a shallow enough angle to just cut the depth you want.
Two screws to hold a 2x4 in the center of the log.
Down one side then back up the other, two groves 3½ inches apart.
My wife and I have been living off rain water for over 4 years now.
The average rain fall here is 36 inches, with a 1000 sq ft roof we catch around 18000 gallons of water per year.
We have 6000 gallons of storage, collect enough in the spring to last all summer then fill them up again in the autumn for the winter.
Ive been messing around trying to draw out some floor plans with Photoshop. This is my preliminary views. 24' by 36'
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/floorplan.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/floorplan-loft.jpg)
I came out pretty good on my well. It's a shallow well that's 24' deep. I've got about $350 in the whole thing, including the pump, pressure tank, concrete, and pump house.
I was quoted $6,000 to hook up to rural water when we moved out here about 10 yrs ago...
Jeff,
I am sure you can find an innovative way to get it done. Most of us knot heads have a knack at it doing this at least conceptually or we wouldn't still be alive. Some of the home brew solutions work out to be superior for less and some of them end up costing more and aren't quite as good. It reminds me of the designers triangle from which you can only choose 2 options:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/designertriangle.jpg)
I suspect you are choosing to drop the speed factor in favor of good and cheap.
My wife continually has to remind me that I am not superman. I have too many projects and too little time and money. It's a dangerous combination and often time leads to injury. As I type this, my thumb, middle finger and knee are all reminding me that trying to do things with the wrong tool or improvised tool all may have painful consequences not to mention they are seldom quicker than using the right tool.
My well was $3500.00 I dowsed the location myself and marked the spot. We hit first water at 125' 3gpm. He was contracted for 300' so I had him drill the remaining for reservoir. Hit water again somewhere around 275' Well makes 12gpm+ right now. Some folks up the way drilled 600+ and were only getting 2gpm. Another guy drilled 250 and hit artesian, had trouble getting the rig out from so much water. Our water is a little on the hard side. Have considered changing to rainwater collection for bathing and washing purposes.
Your footprint is similar to mine and you are wise in having first floor master suite. We love it.
I will mention a couple lessons learned. When building a small cottage or bungalow, think through all furniture placement well. Wall space and storage is at a premium. Things like TV placement are challenging. Do things like dressers and chairs allow you enough space to stand by them while you pull them out? Draw all this into your plans. Counter depth fridges take up less space but they cost more for less cubic inches and are usually less efficient. Best to design for standard depth. Determine top load or front load w/d before sizing laundry and dryer vent an washer drain location. Each electrical receptacle duct vent, smoke alarm, fixture, door molding etc. must have space to coexist and that is the stuff that gets tough to fit in tight spaces. A vertical log exterior will make things like electrical very slow challenging but also very rewarding to do it all concealed. Easy way is a chase at the floor but that takes up space. Stairs always fit better on paper than in real space. Same with tables. Make sure you can get things like box springs, and mattresses into the rooms they don't like corners, doorways and tight spaces. Interior doors can get expensive if bought pre-hung and time consuming if you choose to build/frame them all yourself. Door swing space can take up a lot of useable space. Eliminate as many doors as possible. Allow plenty of room for electro/mechanical needs. Wiring is expensive, especially for larger appliances like range, water heater, dryer. Choose your panelboard location wisely to keep circuit runs short. Installing a return hot water loop for hot water circulation is a nice feature and can save a great deal on water.
Is this a last home for you two? We put 3 foot doors in all rooms and a high toliet. Wife has been in a wheelchair more than a few times. really helped out to have the wide doors.
I also put in 3' doors. You just never know. My friends cabin is 24x36.
On my well I used to oldest well company in the area. They drilled for 3 days. While drilling I asked them how business was their reply "this is the only job we have right now" On the afternoon of the 3rd day the boss called and told them they had another job. All of a sudden they hit water, pulled the rig and left. My "I just got scammed" meter went through the roof. 804 feet. Then to top it off last November we lost water. Pulled the pump and found that they had only used 2 rubber bumpers in 500 ft so the pump was twisting every time it clicked on which broke the pipe at the pump.
Of all that was done there, building 1 ICF house, 1 Cabin and setting 2 mobile homes from a completely undeveloped forest they were the only people I felt ripped me off.
I couldn't have been more happy with the power company great people who bent over backwards to help me.
If left up to me, all I would need is a box that stays warm and sheds snow, a stove and a bed. Things somehow get more complicated when it's more than just me. :)
Quote from: Jeff on February 04, 2014, 05:34:18 PM
If left up to me, all I would need is a box that stays warm and sheds snow, a stove and a bed. Things somehow get more complicated when it's more than just me. :)
Sounds more than a little familiar :)
And you and I both know Dodgy, it's worth it. :)
Quote from: Jeff on February 04, 2014, 05:34:18 PM
If left up to me, all I would need is a box that stays warm and sheds snow, a stove and a bed. Things somehow get more complicated when it's more than just me. :)
You mean like the nice one
deadheader Nailhead (may he RIP) showed to us on the Huron trail ride?
(thanks Jeff)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10180/100_0870.JPG)
Had a double bed too...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10180/100_0864.JPG)
Great Memories Beenthere. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/Furby_Exploring.jpg)
Pasbuild (Thee Bob) lives "der in da UP", and he might even know the architect of this one..... ;D ;D
Quote from: beenthere on February 04, 2014, 06:44:53 PM
You mean like the nice one deadheader (may he RIP) showed to us on the Huron trail ride?
You mean Nailhead. :)
QuoteYou mean Nailhead
Whhooops!
I do mean Nailhead. I even looked it up, and still typed it wrong.
It looks like a yellow birch beam in your picture. No need to take the bark off. :D
Dat was a good time. 8) Hard ta beleave it's been over 6 years ago already. :-\
If only I was a man of means we could recreate high camp on my property and have an atv outing. 8) HEY! If we get this cabin built, we can have an atv outing!! :)
We could make it a coast to coast ride. Start at yer camp on da east coast and end at mine on da west coast. ;)
Lets not recreate da river crossing. ;)
http://youtu.be/rPqZHhKU91E
:D :D :D Lots of laughs that day, huh.
And Pigman managed to keep his pants dry? ???
Such a fun time, and such perfect weather and fall colors, with a heavy rain to get the streams and the river running good. As well, a camp to hang out in that was a dream place to stay.
Back when I first posted the video of the trip, youtube only allowed a certain length. I was able to stitch them all together for the first time tonight for youtube. It's 41 minutes long, but take a ride along with us if you have time for an unforgettable Forestry Forum outing. Those of us that were there will sure never forget it and we'll never forget our host, Pat Johnson, who was Nailhead on the forum. He passed away the year after.
http://youtu.be/_NnCqQEvkuY
Due to technical difficulties, I have to do this over!
Try that again.
http://youtu.be/rsMwNa3CiJ4
Quote from: Jeff on February 04, 2014, 05:34:18 PM
If left up to me, all I would need is a box that stays warm and sheds snow, a stove and a bed. Things somehow get more complicated when it's more than just me. :)
I know how that can happen. At least my addition is complete, but I am now looking at building a log bunkhouse.
MMmmmm, maybe it's best to follow advice and build large enough the first time. :)
If a third side of the log was squared cutting the grooves could be as easy as running the logs over a table saw with a dado head ;) :)
Yes, but then you don't get the log look on the inside that we want. I wish I had the know how and patience and skill and enough life time left to attempt to do something I would consider as an alternate way to do things. That would be to build the frame as a timber frame, and then use the vertical logs for infill.
Quote from: Jeff on February 06, 2014, 04:30:46 PM
... and enough life time left to attempt to do something...
OMG Jeff. I'm the same age as you. You just made me feel terribly old! Where's my rocking chair?
Quote from: Jeff on February 06, 2014, 04:30:46 PMYes, but then you don't get the log look on the inside that we want.
I guess that an alternative would be to slice that slab off, mill as Corley5 suggested, and then nail/screw the slab back on. Yup, the slabs would become your wall paneling. ;D
Hmmm... what if you put up corner posts, ran a horizontal sill with a double tongue, take two sides off your vertical logs with bandsaw, so both edges are parallel, then split your vertical logs in half with the bandmill, groove the ends to fit the tongue in the sill. On the back, flat side, run a couple horizontal 2x straps screwd to outside wall logs, then in-fill with 2" XPS foam and run all of your electric etc. in this space, then put the other side of the log on the inside and use some timber screws at top, bottom and middle to hold them together. The would eliminate the need for lots of grooves/splines, give you continuous insulation and complete the vertical log look you want. Here's a rough sketch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12478/verticallogwallcrosssection.jpg)
I see a couple big advantages to this. Easy to cut/align/assemble/chink, everything is locked in place, cavity for electrical eliminates difficult boring, continuous thermal insulation barrier, better log drying stability, logs could easily be removed/replaced if needed (maintenance, rot,,additions, etc.) smaller logs can be used as 2"of thickness is added, large logs can be trimmed to make more uniform all thickness. These are just a few off the top of my head. Wouldn't be traditional by any means but I think it is a pretty sound structurally and don't see any huge errors or problems in this method. Maybe others can think of some potential problems, but I think it would make an awesome looking cabin.
how about eliminate the splines & grooves altogether. saw a slope on the outside of the sill log & cover the sill area with some peel & stick sealer to let out moisture that gets in the wall.
Quote from: Brian_Weekley on February 06, 2014, 09:41:09 PM
Quote from: Jeff on February 06, 2014, 04:30:46 PM
... and enough life time left to attempt to do something...
OMG Jeff. I'm the same age as you. You just made me feel terribly old! Where's my rocking chair?
Actually my remark had more to with my fault of over analyzing and procrastinating before I do something. The walls in our house remained white with no pictured for over ten years do to my inability to make a decision on where to put a whole in the wall. I think I'm getting over that, and you would probably agree if you were to look at my walls now. :D
The method I want to build with is a proven method. There are literally hundreds of the homes around the lakes in this county that were built back in the 40's. They use this method to build camps and cabins in alaska. I like the looks of the method, and the recognized method has been tried and true. You can also build without splines at all. If you want to chink. I do not want to chink.
How does a vertical log wall handle settling/shrinkage?
Not discouragement, just curious as I've never seen it done.
I'm accustomed to horizontal log building, where we have to keep this in mind to keep things right.
Just wondering if you will see gaps in your walls over time? In horizontal logs, the wall falls down and closes gaps by virtue of gravity
That is the very big plus for vertical log construction, the shrinkage factor. Wood does not shrink longitudinally to any great degree, so you don't have the issues of settling with windows and doors and interior walls and such. You will still get shrinkage, but that is what the splines are for. without splines, you chink, just like you would in a regular log construction. I have an older log home magazine here from the late 1980's that has a diagram I'll try to post.
Use as big a spline as you can. Mine are 3/4 X 3/4. The splines will add considerable rigidity to the structure. I would have gone to 1X1 but didn't have a 1 inch router bit to cut the grooves. Depending on the log species, I would be concerned about bark and bugs on the inside. I slabbed off the inside face and then nailed 2 inch batten over the joints. Instant B and B finish...A timber frame with vertical log infill would be unusual but sounds nice. Go for it... 8)
Good news on the eye. Had a friend who went through the same problem, lazer fix. He recovered completely..
Here are a couple pages from a 20 year old magazine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/Scan0009.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/Scan0010.jpg)
He's got a rock weather station out front of the cabin. :)
The rock and the cabin are still in the picture, so, apparently they had not had any wind. :)
Thehardway That is a very clever idea. Insulation, a place for wiring, and maybe easier than trying to double groove odd size logs. That form of construction will make the cabin easier to heat.
Quote from: Holmes on February 07, 2014, 08:39:11 PM
Thehardway That is a very clever idea. Insulation, a place for wiring, and maybe easier than trying to double groove odd size logs. That form of construction will make the cabin easier to heat.
What do you do about the half logs shrinking and gaping between exposing your foam? You could put tar paper on it, then you have tar paper showing.
You could do a thin 1/4" reverse shiplap. Paint the foam black at the seams. Your project will be very labor intensive no matter what way you do it, but it is what you want.
How do builders of vertical log buildings typically cut their grooves ???
THe ones around here are single groove or chinked. Grooves cut with a chainsaw.
I see that WM has a T&G option for their LT15 moulder attachment: LINK (http://www.woodmizer.com/us/PortableEquipment/MoldersPlaners.aspx) They show some fancy cutters in the rolling pictures in the "More Information - Specs & Extras" windows. Two grooves maybe modified, for splines?? If so, I imagine that there are several LT15's and possibly moulders floating around the FF. ;D
A good customer/client sent me this story about how some guys put a jig on an electric chain saw to cut rafters.
I may work for your idea of cutting spline grooves.
Adapt as you see fit.
Jim Rogers
Jeff
My sister and brother in law lived in a log house built by Mickey on Lake Superior . There are quite a few in wawa and Hawk Jct. A friend has one in Hawk. 3 bedrooms. He also has a 2 car garage that he converted into a gazebo / bunkhouse. He heats that with a large Fisher wood stove. I'm sure when he built it the groove or grooves were done with a chainsaw.
Rather than using big splines for strength,
I would use 2 small splines, like say 1/4" 3/8" thick,
the space in the middle, I would put 2 or 3 good pegs attaching the uprights logs together.
The result, then, as that the wall is very stiffly braced together and could resist the strongest gusts and maybe even a low-class tornado (not those ritzy high class ones though) the pegs will also help the logs to go together in alignment, making it easier to get the splines in their track. I actually left out some of the pegs in my recent cabin, because I know it will never face the winds that its counterparts in the Alps must endure. American log cabins, though based on Alpine methods, are typically far less securely built since here the high Alpine winds are lacking.
This is what we do in horizontal log. The splines used are not trusted for any structural strength, they are viewed solely as insulation/draft stop measures. The pegs brace the courses, making the walls very strong and taking some stress off of the corner joints. This is a chinkless system. The pegs keep the logs from bowing out, which probably won't matter in our walls since they are not that long. But they also stiffen the walls against racking -which corner joints alone cannot do.
Rather than nail the sills and headers, I would cut a groove into them and fit the logs with stub tenons (they need not be any longer than 1 1/2"). That way, you have a strong joint (iron driven into wood will deteriorate over time, wood joinery is superior in this regard) that also allows the spline concept to be carried through to the framework above and below. The article posted just uses chinking here for that purpose.
My whole thought process is trying to translate the aspects of horizontal log construction to vertical log, considering the differences between the concepts.
Jeff, just thinkig you could use a table saw with a daddo blade and use 2x boards as guides. Also there wasa pic of a radial arm saw with a chain saw attachment made by platt river which could be used to make a groove. Seems this would be a little safer and more accurate than gree hand chain sawing. Just my 0.02. Andy
Wouldn't it be kinda hard to control and run a log across a table saw, even with guides?
It's a bit of a predicament unless you make it a little easier by squaring two opposite sides so the ends are the same thickness by using the mill. Because after all logs taper, and cedar tapers quicker than pine. Now you have a flat face on each side for the grooving. Have a carpenter's square on hand if you want the opposing sides to have the grooves line up fairly consistent. Now your grooves can be made perpendicular into the logs and not at angles with wide variations down the log. Snap a chalk line the length of the log and tack a piece of 1" x 4" strapping as a guide and a skill saw set to depth you want and use it's fence to run a straight groove down the log or even a router and fence. Cedar is quite soft, so a 2 HP router is lots. The other reason to square to a set thickness is matching all them logs to fit right, which would otherwise be a pain in the ashes. By just free handing with a chainsaw you have no depth control to the grooves. If dead on accuracy isn't required (close but not furniture grade) you could mount an offset on the bar and use that to slide down the 1x4" edge without chewing it up. It's a bit more accident prone though, like falling down if your walking backwards and cutting yourself or something. Once you worked out a jig that requires very little to set up, you can make them grooves pretty quick. You could go up one side then down the other and just centre the jig on each log. Elevate the log some if routing or skill sawing, just because it's nicer to stand up, rather than standing on your head all day. Probably the mill height is ideal. Bring some spare blades or bits. ;D
QuoteIt's a bit of a predicament unless you make it a little easier by squaring two opposite sides so the ends are the same thickness by using the mill.
I understood Jeff to say that he was going to do this.
I must have missed it. Or probably forgot, after reading it half asleep the first time. ;) If you look at that magazine diagram you don't see it, or I can't read the fine print.
The magazine isn't my guide really, just some added info I found. :)
Well carry on with the way you want it done, it's not going to be difficult. There are some things that will make it easier on the body and more efficient without spending a bunch of money. :)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 08, 2014, 04:54:20 PM
There are some things that will make it easier on the body and more efficient without spending a bunch of money. :)
This is exactly why I have chosen this method. I can even do it by myself if I can't find help.
Quote from: Jeff on February 08, 2014, 07:24:36 PMI can even do it by myself if I can't find help.
I certainly understand that statement. I seldom bite off anything that I can not chew myself. :)
Quote from: Magicman on February 08, 2014, 07:58:10 PM
Quote from: Jeff on February 08, 2014, 07:24:36 PMI can even do it by myself if I can't find help.
I certainly understand that statement. I seldom bite off anything that I can not chew myself. :)
[/quot
smiley_thumbsup
Yep, but it's nice to be able to direct to. ;D :D
My original plan was to use 3/8 treated plywood to make the splines. That means 2 3" spines every log that goes up. That then means a sheet of plywood would only do 8 logs. Checking prices locally, it is almost $30 a sheet. That's almost $700 just for spline material, thats not to mention the re-rod I will need to attach the logs to each other. I'm thinking I need to spline with a different material. Maybe just saw cedar on the mill.
What you spend in time could save you money, I like the idea of cutting your own.
How does the re-rod work? Does it go from one log to the next or through logs several?
The reason I ask is if it was from one log to the next I wonder if wood pegs would work. If they were put in at opposite angles (toe nailed) it would be very hard to take apart. (more work less money)
Quote from: Jeff on February 09, 2014, 11:31:08 AM
thats not to mention the re-rod I will need to attach the logs to each other
Jeff - if you factor in time and effort, are you sure that re-bar is the best way to go? I have a good bit of experince with the FastenMater TimberLOK screws: http://www.fastenmaster.com/details/product/timberlok-heavy-duty-wood-screw.html and I can tell you that they are a lot faster and EASIER. No holes to line up between logs and drill. Just run them in. If 10" isn't long enough, then GRK has some up 14". I actually like the GRK better, but with my 10% military discount at Lowes and HD, the TimberLOK are cheaper by a bunch.
I recommend you take a close look at fastening with screws instead of re-bar. Things will be soon much tighter.
Bruce
All I have is time and effort. I don't think the screw are anywhere long enough. Some of the logs will be 8 and 9 inches wide, and that leave very little screw left to go into the next log. The rebar is not for sucking the wall together, but for keeping it together. There will be shrinkage over time. The rebar will be forgiving. It won't tear the wood apart if there is movement. There will be also screw to toe nail each log to the horizontal sill log that will be put down first. Those won't have to be near as long. The rebar is probably going to be 12" - 16" lengths. the holes can be drilled and the rebar pounded in, and even countersunk with a punch if the logs are bigger and it needs to go in farther..
X2 on the screws. I like GRKs 8) 8)
Where are you going to get screws that will go through 9 inches and clear through the next 9" as well?
Your gonna have to drill a hole for anything that long, so might as well go with the bar and drive it in the hole. Be drilling the the 3rd hole with 2 bars in by the time you wind a 14" in screw in the first hole. ;)
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 09, 2014, 04:45:21 PM
Your gonna have to drill a hole for anything that long, so might as well go with the bar and drive it in the hole. Be drilling the the 3rd hole with 2 bars in by the time you wind a 14" in screw in the first hole. ;)
Never used GRKs have ya Donk ???
I tried to find 14" on line to price them and couldn't
http://www.lippincottsupply.com/search/lg-dia_long-lgth_lag.htm
I don't see a price. They're not screws but lags up to 22".
Here's a GRK price list
http://www.grkfasteners.com/pdf/en/US_Price_Index_jan14.pdf
They list some of the RSS LTFs up to 22" but they are a bit pricey ;)
Quote from: Corley5 on February 09, 2014, 06:17:27 PM
Never used GRKs have ya Donk ???
No need, just physics and logic. ;D :)
You need to try some GRKs. They're not your father's lags :)
Looks like it would be well over $1000 for screws to replace rebar.
Price nails :( They're not cheap :(
I don't need nails for the walls. ;)
But you will everywhere else :)
:D :D Looks like that cabin might be held up with wooden pegs. I'll cut some on my dowel cutter. ;D :D :D The funny part is if you had to buy dowel, they'd be about $12 in 8' lengths. Back to rebar. :D
Quote from: Jeff on February 09, 2014, 07:24:38 PM
Looks like it would be well over $1000 for screws to replace rebar.
Jeff,
Just keep an eye on eBay. I bought most of my screws I will need off there. Instead of paying a buck or more a screw, I paid less than a quarter and even less on the 6"ers. Someone, somewhere will have bought too many or cancelled a project.
Quote from: Jeff on February 07, 2014, 08:57:06 PM
Quote from: Holmes on February 07, 2014, 08:39:11 PM
Thehardway That is a very clever idea. Insulation, a place for wiring, and maybe easier than trying to double groove odd size logs. That form of construction will make the cabin easier to heat.
What do you do about the half logs shrinking and gaping between exposing your foam? You could put tar paper on it, then you have tar paper showing.
Never use tar paper next to foam. Petroleum based products have a tendency to react badly with foam (it dissolves). In the method as I proposed, there is no need for the tar paper as the foam forms a vapor barrier/drainage plane for any water that might happen to get through the log portion of the wall.
I think I mentioned chinking between logs which would make it look very traditional and done every so many years it would make up for shrinkage, but since you don't want chinking, you would have to use another method that I haven;t figured out. Yet. :-[ I do think that your drying would take place much quicker and theie would be less surface checking of the logs if they were split as I mentioned. Logs might not shrink as much especially if left to air dry a year after split and shrinkage might not even be an issue.
It sounds like you know what you want, and methods you want to use and are pretty set on it. I can understand that and respect that, it just means you might be considerably older when this cabin is finished. ;D
I poured the footer for my house in 2007 and moved in in 2012. 5 years of doing things "the hardway" so I respect what you want to do and have been down that road. I can't count the number of people who told me I would never finish or that it just couldn't be done. I was called Noah several times when working on the timberframe portion. The only things I contracted out were concrete pumping/finishing, well drilling, and drainfield installation as well as having some custom cabinets built. (would have done the cabinets too but the wife couldnt wait that long for a place to put the dishes. I did every inch of the the remainder myself. Sitework, foundation, framing, roofing, plumbing, electrical, drywall, painting, grading, etc. I even built many of my lighting fixtures.
I could have done things in a lot easier way. For instance, I wanted pocket doors in the house. I have pocket doors, but looking back at the time and headache they caused, I don't think I would do it again. I used a lot of salvaged stuff like insulated glass block, bathtub, metal staircase, electrical conduit etc. which all saved money on materials but cost me a great deal of time and effort as well as blood and sweat.
I think the cedar will work fine for your splines. You can likely make them from the slabs you cut off the 2 sides. It will certainly be a lot easier to work with than splintery PT plywood. I hate PT plywood. It is seldom uniform in thickness, warps, and bows, has a lot of knots/voids and is very splintery. Only problem I can see with cedar is that it is soft and prone to splitting when cut thin. You will need to leave it a slightly loose in the grooves to avoid having to drive it in and crushing the edges.
I think the rebar will work fine as dowels. If you have a good concrete construction supply company, they will cut it to your specs. This will save you money on abrasives, blades or buying a rebar cutter. I cut all mine with a porta-band saw but I didn't need so many short pieces.
Do you plan to hand peel all your logs?
I know a lot of log builders use rebar or threaded rod to tie the walls together and all that,
But I am never a supporter of using metal fasteners in solid wood construction.
I know it's easy and handy, but it has strong disadvantages.
The first and foremost is that steel and wood do not 'work' together, that is they expand and contract at different rates, at different times, for different reasons. Over time this leads to a drastic weakening of the joint. The bigger the piece of steel, the more this effect matters.
Steel also is a condensation point because of its high conductivity. Since it is always 'cold' it will attract moisture and it will collect on it. Furthermore, a steel rod will such water inside of the hole it goes through. We can all guess what this leads to.
Also in any kind of reactive wood with a reasonable tannin content, like ceder, steel has problems. It will rust.
That all said, you'll probably be fine to use rebar.
Personally, I'd use wood pegs driven 2 or 3 inches into each log. No need to drill them through. No need for continuous pegs running through the walls. connect each log to the one next to it, that's all that is necessary. If you do this, you can save a lot on material. Pegs can be cheap poplar dowel or even pine. They don't do much.
If you admire historical vertical log buildings, especially anything in Norway, that's how they did it. It works, and it works for a very long time.
Nothing related to what Jeff is getting ready to tackle, just some fodder. You guys like to read....so. ...here goes.
I know a fellow in the community that has been building his house for 30 years. Started out with a trailer and worked around it for a bit until it could be removed. Has added a garage in recent years, just keeps the Tyvek showing while he's been working inside and keeps the taxes low(er). As soon as siding of some sort gets added to a place, taxes jump. I know they look at square footage, but they also look at outwardly appearance to. Any improvement on that is a tax hike around here.
Well, that didn't hurt none. ;)
The Fastenmaster and GRK screws will be coated, so corrosion won't be an issue. Being buried in the log, I wonder if condensation will be an issue either. I use FastenMaster Headlok screws, like a TimberLok, but has a nice flat head like the GRK, for timber repairs. You would want to get a price on bulk quantities, it will save a lot of money, and in my experience, the GRKs are cheaper than FastenMaster. GRKs also have more and heavier thread than the others. I do like the wooden peg idea. Any locust up there? :D
I may have found a deal on 7 250 count boxes of 12" olylog screws left over from a project The price would be cheaper than I can by the rerod for. He is asking $75 a box. There are in the U.P. where I can get them picked up for me if I can make a deal with the fellow. :) This may be the way to go. I'm glad you'll are questioning me on how I plan on duoing things.
;D
I found info on the product here:
http://www.twincreeksloghomes.com/olylog-log-home-fasteners.html
The FastenMaster OlyLog Screw is the first threaded log home fastener which requires no predrilling and is ACQ approved. Since its introduction, the OlyLog has changed the way log homes are constructed.
FastenMaster OlyLog Product Features
• Installs much faster and easier than lags & spikes –Saves time and fatigue – Dramatically lowers installed cost.
• Requires no predrilling – Eliminates on-site predrilling.
• Countersinks into log – Allows log to settle naturally.
• Draws warped logs down.
• Removable and reusable.
• Eliminates jarring and damage caused by a sledge hammer.
• Engineered for increased strength and performance.
FastenMaster OlyLog Product Benefits
• No predrilling.
• Self countersinking headstyle.
• Strong pull down and holding power.
• Removable: Just put the drill in reverse and back it out.
• Corrosion resistant. ACQ Approved.
• No sledge hammer damage.
• Greatly reduced labor time.
FastenMaster OlyLog Installation Instructions
• Use a 1/2", high torque, low RPM drill.
• Install OlyLog perpendicular to the log.
• Countersink the OlyLog a minimum of 1/4".
FastenMaster OlyLog Physical Data
• Available Sizes: 2 1/2", 4", 6", 8", 9", 10", 12", 14", 16"
• Head Style: Hex
• Thread Length: 2"
• Thread Diameter: 0.25"
• Shank Diameter: 0.19"
• All screw sizes are packaged 250/box. One hex bit per box is included.
I just finished making a guide for my chainsaw out of stuff in my junk box in the barn. I'll have to wait until some snow thaws and I can find something to test it out on. If it works, great, if it doesn't I'm not out anything. I was amazed to find the little bronze bushing in my stash. I created the guide from a block of polyethylene rod I had here. The guide turns on the bushing, the bushing does not turn on the bolt. The ardest part was to drill the hole in the bar. I ruined a few bits trying as my bits are elcheapo. I did get a small hole through, but that was it. I sent the bar into the bus garage this morning with Tammy and her Boss Brad drilled the hole for me there. :)
The theory is, that holding the saw at a natural angle for the length of the bar, the groove should be between 1 and 1.5 inches deep.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_20140210_114214_602.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_20140210_115041_418.jpg)
Make it the width of the space between grooves. Could then be multiple use as a spacer between cut grooves. The depth won't be precise maybe, but maybe within your tolerance. That rig could then keep from chewing up the straight edge/guide your following. If your putting something the entire length in the cut groove, just put it in the first one cut and cut the second groove using it as a guide. The first groove could use a tacked on 2 x4 along a chalk line, offset the width of that attachment on your bar. Again it would keep from chewing up the 2 x4 guide.
Lookin good Jeff. smiley_thumbsup
Here is the idea of my jig. Picture is easier than to explain it. Jig is a frame that tacks to face of log. The chainsaw with its spacer runs down the inside of the jig on one side, then back up the other side, making two 3/8 grooves with two inches between them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/groove-jig.jpg)
Would it work better if you had a central 2" rail and actually "trapped" the chainsaw between the guides. Just enough clearance to avoid it binding, but not so much clearance that the chainsaw can wander?
Ian
Quote from: Ianab on February 10, 2014, 03:21:56 PM
Would it work better if you had a central 2" rail and actually "trapped" the chainsaw between the guides. Just enough clearance to avoid it binding, but not so much clearance that the chainsaw can wander?
Ian
It seems like it, but I don't think that can work, at least with this bar guide, and it is only 3/4" thick, but that would still be to thick. Its over an inch and a half from the edge of the poly wheel to the outside of the nut that holds it on. You would have to move the jig side to side.
What about just letting the nut ride down a centre guide? Then turn around and come back the other way? That means you can have a ~1.5" rail down the middle?
I'm just thinking that the saw may want to wander in the cut. If it does, the nut side hits the centre rail?
The idea looks good, just throwing some more thoughts in ;)
Ian
That's similar to what I was thinking of but not necessarily a center rail. I actually envisioned sort of a spring shoe for lack of a better term that connects to the nut on the other site, and pushes to the far rail. Sort of like what a feather board does for you on a table saw, but connected to the other side of the bar. That diagram makes it look a long was across that open area, but its only 3 1/8" to the other rail from the chainsaw bar.
I just went out to my lumber pile to see if I could find something to test on. There is three foot of snow on it and probably 3 or 4 inches of ice under that.
There is also the idea of having a guide spaced 2" from the bar that actually rides inside of the previously cut kerf.
Jeff
At least you have a design now to move forward with.
Can start hacking out the other methods needed to move the project to the next stage.
Prolly several iterations and improvements will take place to perfect the chainsaw grooving before all the logs finally get grooved.
Look forward to seeing it develop.
If you drilled another hole in the bar (ya I know, I drilled a bar before it's not easy with really good bits either) then instead of a wheel put a piece of plywood, or plastic the right shape on both sides of the bar.
Make your guide with a centre bar now you can make a groove on both sides what ever width you want, if you want a 1/2" groove to use a more sturdy thicker splines make the space on the guide the thickness of the bar with pieces on both sides plus 1/2".
An addition to my jig. Who knows if any of this will work. :D I used an old hard flexible plastic part I found in my junk. It was some sort of guard in a previous life. First picture is of it in its entirety before I cut it up.
It is now my spring alignment apparatus. :D It is quite durable plastic. The compound curves should allow it to slip down into the jig as the cut is started and then put tension on the opposite rail of the jig frame as the cut is made. In Theory. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_20140210_183553_510.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_20140210_190013_823.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_20140210_190028_551.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_20140210_190038_095.jpg)
Is this the thread for stiff rough neck engineers? 8) ;D
I've already realized several design problems. Definitely need to come up with a way to run it down a center rail. The problem comes when the flat face is just wide enough to get the 2 grooves on. The wheels will then be running on the curved service of the log, which will vary the depth of the groove immensely. Back to the drawing board in my noggin.
I got it, but I don't have the materials to re make it that I know of. Instead of cutting the first groovr to the right as you run the asw down the track, the spacer needs to be wide enough to cut the second groove first on the opposite side, then on the trip back, again, on the opposite side. This would narrow up the center space in the jig frame considerably as well.
Jeff,what do you need? Knowing the junk I have at the old farm house I have it. The only problem, by the time I wouold find it,your cedar would be all rotten. ;D
I'm manufacturing a part tonight. I have another chunk of cylindrical poly, but it already had a hole in it, and the hole is to big. I'm filling the hole with Gorilla glue and I'll drill out a new hole. I've used Gorilla glue before on something kinda sorta related and it worked perfect. Making bushings in the pitman arm for a hit and miss dragsaw :)
Quote from: Jeff on February 10, 2014, 12:01:55 PM
I may have found a deal on 7 250 count boxes of 12" olylog screws left over from a project The price would be cheaper than I can by the rerod for. He is asking $75 a box. There are in the U.P. where I can get them picked up for me if I can make a deal with the fellow. :) This may be the way to go. I'm glad you'll are questioning me on how I plan on duoing things.
I am the proud new owner of almost 2000 12" screws. First he gave me another price break for taking the 7 boxes of 12" but then said he would swap out one box of 12" for what ever he had that was longer. Either 13" or 14", he wasn't sure, plus he said he would throw in some other screws of various lengths from some partial packages he has. Even if I don't end up using these, I can easily get my money back as I paid less than a third of what they are anywhere online. 8)
For the chainsaw guide, would it be possible to put some spacers (washers) between the poly guide wheel and the bar.
The wheel could then run in a piece of channel or uni strut ( or a piece of wood with a dado in it) screwed to the center of the log
Up one side then down the other
Excellent on the screws 8) 8) 8) You'll be much happier with them than re-bar ;D ;D
What about making "shoes" out of angle iron bolted to both sides of the bar with the ends curled up slightly so it won't dig into or catch on the log. Use two bolts so the angle is rigid to keep the depth of your groove constant. Set it so the iron is flat on the log and cut. Use another piece or pieces of angle to run the edges of the shoe along to keep the groove strait.
Good deal on the screws.
Here's what I'm wondering ;D :) The logs are random sizes 8" to 11 or 12" diameter ??? The plan is to flatten them on two sides for live log look on both sides. What about the differences in diameter ??? Is the plan to have one side as flat possible with the variation all showing on the other side or do you split the difference ???
Split the difference, but try to use logs that are close to one another in size in relation to each other. Use arger logs near windows, doorways and the corners. There won't be any 12's other than on corners I imagine and I may go for even bigger there, but those will be pushed out. Corners don't have opposing flattened areas of course, but 90 degree.
another thought for groove cutting would be to get a length of 3/8 x 2 steel flat bar to insert into the first groove & guide off it for the second groove - guaranteed standard spacing.
I'm really leery about having metal anywhere where there may be a running chainsaw doing tedious work. :-\
On my list of to builds is a double blade circle mill. That would give you your two sided log rather quickly
Quote from: Hilltop366 on February 10, 2014, 05:13:05 PM
If you drilled another hole in the bar (ya I know, I drilled a bar before it's not easy with really good bits either) then instead of a wheel put a piece of plywood, or plastic the right shape on both sides of the bar.
Make your guide with a centre bar now you can make a groove on both sides what ever width you want, if you want a 1/2" groove to use a more sturdy thicker splines make the space on the guide the thickness of the bar with pieces on both sides plus 1/2".
I thought I would add some pictures to my ramblings, I don't seem to have the time to learn a new drafting program so I made some quick and cheezie hand drawings.
Instead of making a bar guide that just goes on the end I was wondering if it extended up to the saw head, by having the wood part wider than the bar it would help guard the rest of the chain and would let the operator of the saw set the saw in the log guide with out starting the cut by holding the saw close to horizontal, then tilt the saw up while starting the cut. This would be easy to test by using some C clamps and two pieces of wood.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18975/Photo_on_14-02-11_at_1_29_PM.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18975/Photo_on_14-02-11_at_1_29_PM__2.jpg)
The two siding of the logs is the easy part. :)
Quote from: Jeff on February 11, 2014, 12:09:24 PM
I'm really leery about having metal anywhere where there may be a running chainsaw doing tedious work. :-\
It's like riding a motorcycle. You're not supposed to fall off ;D
Like father would say, just do it right. Then no worries. :D :D
My back is beginning to hurt just thinking about cutting 800 grooves with a chainsaw. You'll need to make two passes for each groove to get 3/8" width. Holding the saw for the second pass will be the hard part. What about modifying one of those Log Wizard things ???
The cutters on 72 and 73 LPX Oregon chain are only 3/16" wide.
i see a shoe attached to the saw bar with a groove cut in it which will slide over the 3/8 flat bar. for the first pass the same shoe will ride on one leg of a 3/8 angle - the other leg will be tacked to the log. cut the iron about 1' longer than the logs to make engagement easy. drink plenty of coffee to avoid sawing the iron. :)
Quote from: Corley5 on February 11, 2014, 04:55:09 PM
The cutters on 72 and 73 LPX Oregon chain are only 3/16" wide.
Measuring the cutters or measuring the kerf? Isn't there a difference?
Kerf isn't much more than 3/16" They might overlap a bit maybe 1/4" when the chain is new but surely won't make 3/8" in one pass.
I like the modified Log wizard idea. I've played around with profiled cutters on one before. Just clamp the two knives in a vise and grind the profile you need. Make a wooden guide of some sort that you can clamp centered on your log and cut in one pass. It will ensure that every pair of splines is perfectly identical.
Just took a shot of the kerf my Stihl 33RS chain makes, just for kicks. Measured 0.327 which would take a 5/16" spline of 0.3125"
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10180/kerf.JPG)
Is that a new never been filed chain ???
Good question. Filed about 1/3 off the teeth. But a number of filings, never rocked tho.
I believe beenthere is right 5/16" kerf. You get a little more like he measured just because of play or rattle, or whatever.
A new chain should cut close to a 3/8 groove. I've never checked one myself. Three eighths just seems really wide :)
I dunno man, I used to buck 6-7 cord of firewood in the yard unloaded from a pulp truck, the other half went to my brother. And I used to cart off a lot of sawdust afterward with the wheelbarrow. ;D
To this day I'm still amazed at the amount of sawdust a .404 processor chain makes :)
Need to find a new market for the sawdust. ;D ;)
Sure wish I had some photos of that cedar camp I've mentioned before on the forum. Was really quite something. :)
The spline you will be using can be cut to what ever groove your saw will cut, cedar spline for what you want to do will be fine, you can saw those up as you size the logs. Edging them will be a >:( . I personally would put the spline through a planer, but it does not have to.
Another option for you with different size logs is to put them face to face, mark the bigest to the smaller ones face, draw knife the larger ones edge to match the smaller one and you have all logs look like they where scribed together.
There is also expantion foam in form of tape one can buy .. ( it might not be cheap ) and that be put between your logs, seals out the draft. ;) A big stove works well too. ;D
You better do it right because that place is the coldest place in the world, I hear.
Quote from: WDH on February 11, 2014, 09:06:16 PM
You better do it right because that place is the coldest place in the world, I hear.
Nope ;) He's 'bout tree hundred miles East of dat cold place. ;D
If it's east, than it's got to be as cold. The Jet Stream runs west to east don't it? All your cold air moves out all his hot air eventually. ;D ;)
It does Swamp, but as it hits that coldest spot it gets warmed up by all the hot air those Yoopers create so that all that is east of them can warm up.
I was thinking about the Log Wizard idea last night, and the fact that it uses Makita planer blades. A small planer that uses those blades is cheaper than a Log Wizard, and doesn't require a noisy, unwieldy chainsaw. All you would have to do to guide it is two parallel straightedges that run on the outside of the planer. Not sure about how much protrusion you can get with one of those planers, but it could probably be modified.
The hand held Makita type planer would not be able to get deep enough cut to make the spline groove. One would be better off with a router, then he would need electricity to do the work, a chain saw is easier to deal with and one can do the groove almost anywhere and match the spline to the cut .
Dave you are right about the log wizard using a standard Makita planer blade. As built the wizard could not be modified to cut deep enough as the blades are quite shallow, however, if one modified the wizard assembly to look more like the blade assembly of a joiner/planer, the planer blades which are much deeper and much heavier could be ground to a custom profile, then like you said you could easily cut two precision spaced grooves, simultaneously using a chainsaw with no power cord needed. I know Jeff probably wants to try his chainsaw method and I don't blame him but this might be an application where folks from a place like Woodmaster who builds planer heads and custom profiled blades everyday could come up with a useable modification for a chainsaw similar to the log wizard. I can think of numerous applications, shucks, if you had a matched blade pair you could make your own T&G logs, timbers and planks using your chainsaw and a straight edge. Now that would be cool!
I think the spline will need to be no less than 3/8" for successful insertion without having edge damage or breaking upon assembly and the groove would need to be closer to 1/2". You might make a 5/16" oak or hickory spline work but cedar that thin will be rather fragile and prone to splitting.
Speaking of planers, what about building a large block plane like the real old timers used for cutting mouldings and bead board. I would think a few passes with it would rough out a very nice groove, I've seen some monster wooden block planes, one about 2' long with a 7/16" chisel used for the blade would likely work pretty nice and be easy to build.
Chainsaws have built a lot of cabins in the north. ;D
A chainsaw will work but I still think a groove cutter(s) connected to the sawmill would work the best for speed, accuracy and back pain, load and centre log cut slab, cut groves, flip and repeat.
I was looking at pictures of a WM mill and was thinking that with the engine belt guard removed and replace the pulley to add a extra belt to drive a cutter(s), a small right angle gear box a belt and some inexpensive cutters, could also be driven with a electric motor.
A Lucas or Peterson would shine here.
Lay 6-8 logs down at a time and run the blade up and down each log like a router or dado until you had the desired cut.
Jeff will have a demo mill up there before the end of this summer. 8)
I doubt that highly. Jeff doesn't get any perks like that. I've seen members get perks before, but not me.
Ian and crew are due for a trip to America. ;)
I guess some of us are just too spoiled. :D ;)
I think mounting a groove cutter on the mill somehow would be the most fun ;) ;D It would surely save a lot of back aches.
i posted ideas for guiding your chainsaw based on the assumption that you were committed to that method. however, after reading corley and hilltop as well as your post #69 i have to agree that something mounted on the mill is the way to go. if you have electricity, i would go with pineywoods method & use 2 routers mounted on a sled that you could raise & lower. might have to go up to 1/2" bits unless cedar is really easy cutting.
??
Reposition a WM debarker motor and dado head (or whatever it is called) on the WM and run it down after the face is sawn to make one spline track. Shift over and make the next pass or maybe could do it on the gig back.
That would imply having a debarker, or him installing one, I don't think that that (Tom) is going to happen. ;) :D He also said he was cheap ;D :D
Grooving the logs might be more accurate with a skil saw and a couple of 1/4" steel guides. I put 3 blades on my 14 volt dewalt saw to make 1/4" grooves in 16' long pvc trim boards. Makita makes saws with a nice flat "side" edge than can be run along a 1/4" straight edge. If 3, 1/8" ,blades could be mounted to the saw, each groove could be done in a single pass. All the prep work will be the same to get to the point of cutting the grooves.
Now that you have long screws is there an easier way to put these logs together without grooves? Maybe sandwich a foam foundation foam between each log? { It's 6" wide 1/8" thick comes in blue, white, ?}
With the plastic pieces you have one on each side of the bar. And use one board, cut two slots in it 1" 2" apart . Then you can drop the nose of the saw in the slots. Pull the saw like a shoe down a rail.
Depend on how high or low with the saw will be the depth . You might have to make a template to use on the jig? Not sure.
But I think it will be fast. Maybe :D :D :D :D :D
I think if anyone lands up there at Jeff's cabin site, they are going to be test subjects to all these jig ideas. Pete your first in line I think. :D
I'm afraid Pete is not able to do much any more. :-\
Quote from: Jeff on February 13, 2014, 08:55:55 PM
I'm afraid Pete is not able to do much any more. :-\
Just an idea I had Jeff. I thought It might work for you. Using the saw
Which Pete Jeff? If he can cut firewood, he can cut splines. :D I was thinking the fellow one post up. :D
Sorry to hear that about Pete.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on February 13, 2014, 09:26:09 PM
Quote from: Jeff on February 13, 2014, 08:55:55 PM
I'm afraid Pete is not able to do much any more. :-\
Just an idea I had Jeff. I thought It might work for you. Using the saw
Were not talking about you. Swamp Donkey I thought you were talking about my Brother-in-law who many of the forum guys that have come to the pig roasts have met in the past including you. If I say Pete, that is who I will always be referring to.
Sorry about your BIL Pete, Jeff, I've not read on the forum if he had any health issues. When there is more than one Pete, messages can easily get crossed when one of them is active on the thread.
I am sorry to hear that Pete is having problems.
He is a real nice guy, I hope he gets better soon.
Jon
If you used 2 triangles of plastic or hard wood say 1" wide 6 or 8" long on each side of the bar with a washer agents the bar so the chain will turn ok. Then when you find the depth you want buy lifting the end of the saw, make a #2 hole in the bar and bolt it, that will keep the depth the same If you can hold the saw so the bottom of the triangle flat on the flat spot on the log in the jig, that will work.
Don't forget to make the jig longer than the log so the slot goes to the end.
What do you think?
I'm sorry Jeff,I do not know what mill You have but the answer is still to use extruded aluminium structural tubing.I do not know schetch-up but can do a drawing ,when I know Your mill.Pretty simple,if ya work with this kind of stuff daily,for 40 years.
Jim
Like this,these are just cut-offs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16699/LT30grovecutter_copy.jpg)
Head on look.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16699/frontend.jpg)
A drawing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16699/drawn.jpg)
Jim
They have about 7 cord of cedar me set aside. Here are some pics of the pile. I'll post some bonus shots when I get doing Lou's tado list for today. He just ame and nabbed me :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_0158.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_0157.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_0156.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_0155.JPG)
Nice 8) 8) 8)
You are on your way. 8)
That looks good. Any butts logs in there? Just wondering how your is. Mine would be rotted hearted for at least 4 feet,if not more.
Who in our group is good at peeling? :D
Nice sound cedar. Some lucky fella. ;) :)
Whoa, those look great.
When is the cabin raisin' ???.
That there is a nice whack of cedar, Moose, good aint gonna cut it for this wood, that bark is stuck on with some good glue.
few morie pictures from a -15° day. :) It looks warmer than that, but its cooooolllllldddd
oops, need to upload some pictures... thats a slow deal here.
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You have enough camp for all that wood? I suppose you need a good shed to. :)
They made a good road.
They didn't make any roads actually. The wood is decked on the power line and the other photos are two of Lou's internal "trails" being used to forward wood out to the power line from a cut about a half mile away with no other access..
That is some operation and much different that anything seen here.
Snow like that would mean a vacation in south Arkansas because the highways would be closed.... not to mention you'd have to find a new site to log when the snow melted in a couple days. That powerline would be way too rotten to travel. Nice to see pics of winter logging up north.
Another attempt to show what I meant,to cut the 2 grooves You require.The assembly can also be flipped to trail
the band on the operators side.If it is all too high above the band a small piece of tube could be attached under the cross beam
and the chainsaw strut attached at that point.The smaller tube,will allow greater extension of the blade guide.
Oh,and if the chainsaws are slightly skewed,toed out or in they should cut the full width slot in one pass.
Jeff ,If I've confused Ya PM me. :D
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Jim
If I was going to mount chainsaws, that is the way to do it. :)
Today, I found another deal on a piece to the puzzle. :) A whole spool, and a big box stuffed with closed cell foam rope I can use for the seal between the splines. I don't have any idea how many feet is here all together, or if it is enough, but it is sure a good start and an unbelievable (to me) find. It cost me $25.!
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The hunt for materials is as good and as fun as the building of the cabin. Good find. :)
For a second there I thought it might be primer cord. Probably not the best way to debark logs.
Det cord :o not good its worst than primer cord you made a good find there Jeff
That's backer rod to fill the expanding joints on big building before It's caulked .
It might work, Not sure. :)
We went through a bunch of that stuff and adhesive caulk building the cabin at the Billarosa.
The Loggers are getting ready to move out in the next couple days, so moved my cedar up to the front of my property where I can easily get to it. No sign of spring yet there. In fact they have had about another foot of snow since this photo was taken by Lou :)
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That is a very nice & well stacked whack. I know that you are anxious to start on your project. 8)
Our little cabin, from local cedar and a little help from our Woodmizer. Note the dog ramp for our many beloved mutts. A work in progress....
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If I owned your house and that cabin, I'd rent out the house and live in the cabin. ;) ;D
I just returned after a week up on my property. I wanted to be there just as the huge snow pac from this year was gone but it was still draining to see where water was and was not on my property. Good news is the high ground could not be dryer. We got a 2 inch rain storm that flooded the cabin yard while Burlkraft and I was there, so we went down to my property to check that. Not a puddle. :) Weird though, we have a Mallard Hen nesting about 50 feet from where Steve and I built our composting outhouse. Its only about a 20 second flight to 400 acre Carlton lake though. I took a video clip of the nest before leaving this morning and while waiting the for the inspector from the electric company to show up on my request to get power in. That's a whole other story. The big City has come to the U.P. when it comes to code. >:(
http://youtu.be/ZU7Z4jic4OE
This is a walk into our new property and future cabin site. Our previous property, just across and down the road still had snow in the driveway. This demonstrates just how much dryer the new ground is.
http://youtu.be/SfvfQML5xC4
I know that you are excited about the prospects of getting this project underway.
Love the dog ! 8)
Phase one is almost completed. The outhouse. We used the bug killed tamarack Burlkraft and I sawed out I think 3 years ago now. We used Butt and Pass to build it. Paul_H thought that was highly appropriate. :D
This is going to be a composting outhouse, so, no hole.
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The river had several freighters stacked up at the mouth. 7 when I took this picture, but only got part of them in the shot. The ice flow was to thick and dangerous that morning for the pilot boat to get out to them, so they had to sit until it could. I should have taken a picture of the pilot boat. I walked around it so I wouldn't get it in the shot.
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Jeff,
I like the outhouse. I'm thinking that will be the first building I will put up as well. It may just be temporary. I have my well and septic in so it will be a flush toilet. How did you attach your "logs" together? Rebar spikes or "nail" spikes? Two per wall/log? What are you planning for the roof finish?
The outhouse is just one of them first essentials. :) Nice little shack. ;D
Is the back of the lot on water front?
The outhouse is now open and ready to do your business. :)
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Do you need an appointment? ;D
Nice view,of the woods.
And I don't see a single mosquito, gnat or black fly in the photos! 8)
You also don't see me in the photo covered in mosquito bites, black fly bites and the occasional tick! They are horrible, and I'm starting to look like hamburger. I really screwed up three nights ago. I left the cabin at 4pm and worked on the well until dark. To my horror, I found when I returned I had some how had a brain fart and never pulled the front door shut. That was the night from hell.
I think he spray bombed the outhouse. :D Not fun, them things will lug you off drop by drop. :D
Deer flies just started here and it's in the 80's the last couple days. No ticks around here, and don't want any. The hot sun will stop the mosquitoes around here and the black flies back down some to.
Had a visitor up here last night. The mud is pretty firm so hard to see the track with the camera, and Bears don't tend to leave to many tracks, even a big bear like this one. Hard to see, but the toes are up by my toes, and the back of his heel is about two thirds back on my foot., So his track is around 9 inches long
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And you thought the Skeeter's and flies where a pest.
Wouldn't want to come to the front door open
and find a bruin sittin in your Lazy-Boy! :)
I to found a bear track up by the woodlot. And yesterday I saw a track and later a dung pile in the middle of a trail at work. The hunters have bated the area in the past, I see old pales around that were used for cooking grease.
To bad building a cabin wasn't as easy as it is with photoshop. :)
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Put the chimney higher on the peak so the snow doesn't take it off. If you're going with metal roofing ;) ;D
Thats just a random photo I stuck in there. :)
Didn't read the entire post but from experience here is what I found. Once you go to the cabin and it has not been heated for several days everything inside will be equal with the average outside temp. So you start heating and all the walls, furniture etc. or still at outside temp except for the surface area. Takes awhile to get warm but once you do it takes a lot less heat to keep it warm.
As far as commode and water traps no need to buy expensive RV antifreeze. Just get the good grade of windshill washer fluid that is rated 20 below or something like that. When you put in commode tank be sure and flush so it can migrate thru the connection at bottom of tank.
For a random photo, it looks pretty good.
Is that about the style your after? I like the roof pitch and the overhang on the gable.
Pretty slick to be able to build and have that many logs left over. ;D It's time to add on. ???
Vertical logs and all.
When posting the footprint pics...I thought you were going to say "that is the footprints from the smallest 'skeeters!"
And we all know that would be wrong.
Carry on
So when is it going up?
Hard to say. A $3000 car repair bill has made anything in the near future impossible. All I can do for now is stuff I can do myself without much cost. Today I got the old foundation that is right next to where we will build the new foundation filled in and semi-leveled. About all it needs to be as the dirt from the new foundation excavation will probably get piled there. I have the site far enough along as of today to get everything staked out. I could start digging the hole, but I don't have a permit yet or any of the drawings done needed to apply for one.
This is a photo of the site as of this afternoon.
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I left the old building's fireplace footing in place for historic reasons. I'll find something to do with it. I want to be able to point to it and say that is where the chimney was from the original structure.
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Quote from: Jeff on June 24, 2014, 07:02:27 PMI left the old building's fireplace footing in place for historic reasons. I'll find something to do with it. I want to be able to point to it and say that is where the chimney was from the original structure.
Jeff, I did the identical same thing at our cabin. The fireplace bricks are at the edge of the original back porch.
Also I left the landing from the front steps on my Grandparent's home. It will always be easy to know where the entrance was. :)
Jeff,
Get an axe, or two, and chop those logs out yourself.
Lowest cost to build anything! But you'll be tired for the next 5 years...
nearing completion of my cabin made of logs me and my brothers hewed out all by hand...
I think the WM wins over the axe. :D I think I need shoulder transplants after hewing that white oak last summer. :o
Come to the TFG conference, I'll show you how it's done ;D
D L
Make a video and put it on YouTube. We can all see how it is done then.
I'd like to see, for one.
I hope to, some time.
Maybe someone will video me at the conference. I don't know if I will be doing any hewing this summer.
Quote from: D L Bahler on June 24, 2014, 10:27:07 PM
Come to the TFG conference, I'll show you how it's done ;D
Don't worry, I know how to hew.
I have the site almost prepared for excavating. I have it staked out for a local excavator to look at tomorrow to give me an estimate. \
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Tammy and I finished our well house up by putting some left over stain from our house on it, and built a hydrant for easy water access.
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While working I noticed Icey was off somewhere. I looked around and saw her out closer to the road near the driveway with her nose to the ground rummaging around in the weeds. Turns out she found something I had not and was out there grazing on wild strawberries!
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Tammy left for home today. I promised to dogsit here for my sister while they go to Wisconsin for a wedding, so I'll be here until Monday. I then will be home and shift into full pigroast mode and have tro put this dream on hold until August. :)
Jeff, you may have mentioned it... I cant remember. Are you going slab on grade? Footings/ stem wall?
Did thecfarm do a drive-by and dump a load of rock in the middle of the night? :D
Since we have some block layers in the family I'm going with block wall foundation.
Have rocks,boulders,will travel. ;D
So today I had a few minutes where I was thinking about the cabin, and decided to call the building inspector in Chippewa county. He seemed like a nice enough fellow, but I found out right away he was not a fan if vertical log, and if I go that way, is going to require engineered drawings. He said he would prefer I did post and meam and use vertical log for infill. If the top is tied together with a horizontal member, wouldn't the whole thing be post and beam anyway, using a couple hundred posts? :-\
Sorry, but no it is not the same. You definitely have some structural design problems to overcome with vertical log construction.
When you place vertical support posts closer and closer together, your end tolerance for cutting to length gets tighter plus the ends must be absolutely perpendicular or you will have more variation in length. Then if you add in the shrinkage factor with logs it adds more uncertainty to the structural integrity of your wall.
The next and even more difficult problem is your resistance to racking of your walls. The best resistance to racking of a wall is the sheathing that is fastened to every vertical and horizontal member in the wall. In a post and beam wall it's the knee bracing plus normally some sheathing on the outside of the wall. You will have to find a way to prevent racking and deal with the ever present log shrinkage problem. If you scale your wall down to 1/24th size it is like trying to stack 4 inch long pencils or 1/4 inch dowels vertical and making them stand perfectly straight at all times.
Next is the bowing problem with a long wall. Your vertical logs offer no resistance to bowing so some horizontal stiffness must be added some way.
Next thing, and a very serious structural problem to deal with is the end grain support at the sill plate. With vertical logs, all the outside moisture will run down the logs and especially down the vertical spaces between the logs. I don't see an easy way to prevent that water from wicking into the end grain of your logs at the sill plate and causing perpetual wet ends of your wall logs. And anything you put in as a sill sealer will only help trap the moisture at the ends of the logs.
I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but I don't know any easy way to overcome these problems with vertical wall construction. To me, the easy solution is to use stick framing and the vertical logs for outside and perhaps inside siding.
I disagree with your assessment. Take those same pencils and try to stack them horizontally, then try and put a roof on them. Apparently in your nick of the woods, they don't do this. Drive over here for a pigroast. I can drive you around the lakes here and show you dozens and dozens that have been standing since the 1940s. :) Remember, these are going to be basically flat timbers with two rounded edges exposed. Each one was to be splined and fastened to the next as well as to the sill and the top log plate. The individual parts make up a whole, no different than sticks. They are a very secure wall. Remember where the word stockade comes from? This is also called stockade construction. The doors and window openings would be plated as well with two sided logs. Why would large members like logs on end be any different in wicking than small members like two by fours? Also, you are only going to wick moisture if there is moisture to wick. That is treated with the first horizontal log sill that the verticals set on. That log gets a groove and flashing, on a deck that is on a treated sill that is on a block foundation.
The problems you present, shrinkage, moisture, and accuracy of construction is omni present in any type of structure.
Greensted Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensted_Church) is about a 1,000 years old, and is of stave construction, not unlike vertical log. They used a system of rabbets on the bottom to direct the water off the sill, if I remember correctly. There are drawings of it in Cecil Hewitt's "Historic English Carpentry".
Quote from: Jeff on July 17, 2014, 04:37:27 AM
I disagree with your assessment.
I kind of expected you would not like what I said and I have been holding back these thoughts because of that expectation. And what I posted was not meant to be criticism of your plan, it was only to make you aware of some the structural problems you will face and most likely the particular design challenges you will have to address to satisfy your building inspector. I would expect the building inspector will be looking for specific plans for how you will deal with these structural design challenges.
Yes, we have many log homes here, but none with vertical log construction or stockade construction as you say. And certainly horizontal log construction also presents some design problems, but not the problem of dealing with stacking logs on end. Believe me you will have problems with diagonal bracing to keep your walls square and upright and especially with supporting a second story.
So please don't shoot the messenger, I was only trying to help you avoid problems down the road.
Just debating Gary. I have no problem with arguing my point, and take everything in that others may point out. I appreciate the input :)
I'll not be stacking logs on end as you suggest, they will be standing on end, just like any post in a post and beam. I simply can't see the issue you see of stability in the wall. Once the components are connected together, the shear mass of the thing will give tremendous strength. Every log is connected to the next, every log is mechanically connected to the sill log and the top plate log with 10 and 12" log screws. I'm pretty dang sure that a single wall of vertical log construction could stand by itself far longer than any stick built wall if you ran a test to see which one would fall over first using elements like wind or rain or some fool leaning against it. :D
There is nothing I would like more than to come to the Pig Roast and discuss my concerns with you and others, but for more reasons that you can imagine, it's not going to be this year either. So I tried to list my concerns on you cabin construction here:
In any home construction, you have to look at every component and every joint to determine how it will function in the structure. Plus you will have to determine how the various components will work together to maintain the structural integrity of the whole structure.
With conventional construction methods like a stick frame and even a horizontal log home, there are a lot of examples already built to rely on for structural details and construction methods. With vertical log construction and especially vertical log home construction with supporting a second story, I don't see so many. So since you don't have a wealth of trial and error in construction methods to rely on, you must evaluate in fine detail every joint and component to have the best chance for a sturdy livable house.
In a stick frame house, the sheathing both on the inside and outside is a critical component that provides vertical, horizontal, and diagonal strength. It ties all the components in the walls together and makes the walls act like a large stiff and flat I Beam in every direction. But you don't have the luxury of having that component to tie everything together.
So with the joints between the many vertical logs, I understand you are planning to cut grooves on each flat side and insert a plywood spline the entire length of each joint. Plus from what you said, drive long screws horizontally from one log to another. So with that understanding comes the questions.
1. How do you plan to assemble these walls? I assume you will build your walls laying down with the top and bottom plates attached, again with long screws into the end grain of each log. So do you have an assembly method that will hold the assembly square and each log added tight to the next log? You know that screws will not draw the logs together. Each log will need to be clamped tightly to the next one before inserting the screws. When you get to the last vertical log, will you have to shave some off the last log to keep the wall square?
2. How closely do you plan to machine the grooves? Will the inserts fit tightly or will it be a loose fit? Pinned or glued to one side or both?
3. Do you have the means to lift and place the entire wall at once? It's going to be unbelievably heavy. And how will you fasten the bottom plate to the floor/foundation?
4. After the logs shrink, the horizontal screws may be slightly exposed in the gaps between the logs. Will those screws still be enough to maintain the structural strength when the logs are not firmly in contact with each other? And will those screws have the shear strength and bending strength to resist the forces (wind) on the wall when the logs are not in full contact with each other? After the shrinkage you will not have the solid wall you started with at assembly. Essentially at that point you have like one of those mats of large timbers they now use in logging but with loose cross bolts holding them together. That may or may not be exaggerated but it is a big concern.
5. How do you plan to protect the lower ends of the vertical logs from moisture and decay? Those vertical grooves between the logs and the logs themselves will be conduits for moisture that will end up trapped between the sill plates and the end grain of the logs. The only solution I see is massive amounts of caulk and re caulk. A really wide roof overhang will help somewhat, but not eliminate the problem.
6. Finally, how do you replace the tie together from the foundation to the roof that is normally provided by sheathing? I don't know if nails or screws into the end grain of logs will be enough.
I suspect these questions and perhaps others are what your building inspector will demand answers for before he approves your construction. While I can look at a design and make an educated guess at the design problems you will face, I am in no way qualified to be a structural engineer that could judge if your design features are adequate. Things like type, size, numbers and adequacy of screws for example are for someone else to judge. And no doubt, the engineering drawings to provide this detail are not going to be cheap when you are basically forced to invent the wheel. It's too bad you could not pick the brains of the few people that do construct vertical log homes to get the dos and don't of construction but they probably would consider that info proprietary.
What makes the old stockade construction different is I think they buried the log ends in the ground, lashed the logs together at the top and didn't worry much about decay as labor and material were cheap.
So there is some more input. :)
The original Boyne Falls Log Homes were built with vertical white cedar. http://www.cedarhomes.com/about/history/ I wish they showed a picture of one of the originals. Two houses down from us is a Boyne Falls Home built in the 60's, I think. It's been there longer than I've been around ;D Their system worked. I still prefer stick built myself ;) ;D
Wow for sure on some of those log homes. :o They are quite a step above the log bunk house that I am planning to build.
Gary,
I am not a big fan of vertical log myself. Not for structural reasons but more because it just isn't my favorite stlye of building.
But to claim it is unprecedented or that there is not a wealth of tradition and experience in this area is very wrong. This is perhaps the first, the oldest form of wood building man ever ventured to use. It is the most simple, the most basic, the easiest to accomplish without other acquired knowledge of wood building. Archaeological evidence of stockade houses is found all over Europe, and I am sure in the rest of the world as well.
This building style gave birth to the continental Germanic timber frame and Scandinavian stave building. (as opposed to alpine framing methods which arose from horizontal log construction) and is still practiced to this day in Scandinavia.
IT works. It has a proven track record.
I have to go with Jeff on this one, his ideas are sound.
Quit worrying about sheating. The majority of buildings on the planet lack sheating that braces the walls in service. It's just not the only way, it's not the best way. It's not really even a very good way. It works OK, but that's the best we can say for it. When discussing true timber and log building, the argument of braced sheathing is a non sequitur.
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Stockade style, long lasting, multi-storied. Seems to have been around and in use for a while . . . .
Might serve as inspiration for Jeff and Magicman!
Yeah, yeah. A bit grand for the FForum. How about something a bit more modest and less flamboyant?
( and American too!)
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Mine will be horizontal. Just old ho-hum 6X8 Red Oak timbers.....because that is what I have. ;D
My concerns are not based on likes or dislikes but certainly popularity is part of my concern. All structural building designs evolve over time and are sometimes modified until they are not even recognizable as being the first version.
It appears that vertical log construction has given way to post and beam construction in the evolution and vertical log has been mostly relegated to historical structures. It's hard to know if this evolution is due to economy of materials or structural problems with the design, but there most certainly are good reasons for the design being less popular today.
The first picture posted by Andries has all the appearances of a post and beam building with vertical boards as infill. The second picture may be either post and beam or conventional framed with board and batten siding. So neither picture is a good example of the type of construction that Jeff is planning.
Jeff, it's entirely possible with your determination and some modern building materials like long screws and good caulking that you could build the cabin of your dreams. I just want to make you aware of the serious engineering and construction problems you will be facing now rather than later when you will own the problems. And now is a good time to decide if you want to continue with all the re engineering of an old method, the special machining of the logs, and the special construction methods for the romantic idea of vertical log construction.
In the last couple days I've been pretty much forced to abandon the style I've wanted since I was a boy. Not because of concerns raised here, but because of "The Man". I've been told by the inspector up there that I must provide signed, engineered architectural drawings along with my building permit application if I wish to pursue this style of building. So, I'm financially being forced to do stick build, then I can fake the look with siding if I wish. <<INSERT BLANK STARE SMILEY HERE>>
Oh Jeff,I'm so sorry to hear of that. I know what it's like to have a dream as a boy. It fills your mind with hopes and anticipation over the years. And it builds up more the older you get. ;D
The original part of my home was built with vertical log construction. It is a story and a half built with the exact method Jeff is proposing except there are no timber screws or splines used. I'm not sure how old it is, but I do know it was moved to it's present location in 1919. Jeff has been in my home many times, and can attest to the fact that it is structurally secure, and not in danger of falling down. ;)
Jeff,
sorry to hear. Any way you could work out a joined frame with a vertical stave infill, and come up with something like vertical log in appearance?
Build out of sight of the road. It easier to ask forgiveness than permission. I don't know what Chippewa's county's rules are but in this county you pay twice the costs of the permits when and if they catch up with you. That'll be less than a set of engineered drawings. Financial institutions with their mortgages and home equity loans are a big reason for permits. This is going to be an out of pocket build right ??? Get your permit for power and go. Document with pictures all phases of the build so you can prove it's to code if you need to down the road.
Or build with sticks and get permits ;D
Can you hire an engineer to look at and stamp your plans? As far as I know, we can still do that here. I think it's called a pass through. I've heard of engineers stamping for as little as $300.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on July 19, 2014, 08:19:45 AM
Can you hire an engineer to look at and stamp your plans? As far as I know, we can still do that here. I think it's called a pass through. I've heard of engineers stamping for as little as $300.
smiley_thumbsup
Here , if one choses to build without permits and hopes to get away with it can be given a demolition proposal to be taken serieusly, either you do it or the municipality will hire someone to do it for you.
Now if the building meets all codes they may issue a permit retroactivily and accept the building as is with a few penalties to be paid for not doing the correct procedures to begin with.
In Jeff's case, its quite clear what they are expecting I sure would not be going ahead with out the permits in hand ...... smiley_contract
What about using rough sawn lumber for the stick build ???
I'm not even going to ask about that and just do it. At least for the deck.
smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup
Thankfully, I am not restricted with such. All that our county wants is the additional property tax $$$.
Hopefully I can make my cabin bunkhouse build under a tree and "the man" won't see it with Google Earth. ;D
Quote from: D L Bahler on July 19, 2014, 07:13:12 AM
Anyway you could work out a joined frame with a vertical stave infill, and come up with something like vertical log in appearance?
I like this option over conventional framing. Maybe Jim Rodgers can plan a frame with your dimensions and still use your cedar logs for infill.
Does the actual law give the inspector the ability to do that? Sometimes they like to claim more power than they really have, knowing most won't challenge them. I hate to see you have t abandon the style you want because of a code, I've said for years the codes are about enforcing conformity and outlawing self-reliance. There's still areas here with no codes for single family homes/cabins, if there weren't I'd leave the state.
Is there a software out there that would help me draw out a frame with simply joints for a structure 24x36 using round, or two sided cedar? Then as suggested, I could infill with what ever I wanted. Tammy is real fond of cord wood construction, so I could even incorporate a little of that somewhere.
I't too bad the building inspector can't sign off on the vertical log build.
If you think about the vertical log construction method compared to stick frame, the vertical log it is the same thing as long as you have a top plate, it is like having a stud 0" on centre compared to the building codes (16 or 24" oc) which is the minimum, it will surpass the code many times over.
Quote from: Corley5 on July 19, 2014, 04:26:49 PM
What about using rough sawn lumber for the stick build ???
Also, if he gives me any question on the rough sawn, I'll try slinging this at him. ;D (see attachment)
The 'lumberform' many be a project-saver. Thanks, downloaded it quick!
The photo below is an example of what I was trying to describe earlier:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/cordwoodstockadeframe.jpg)
Your inspector will be familiar with timber frame construction (hopefully!) which you can dimension to your 24x36 footprint. Then you infill with whole or half logs, and add accent with cordwood to keep Tammy smiling and nodding . . .
Oh, this is for your permanent home? When I first started reading about this, I assumed it was for a camp. I'm looking for ideas to build a fishing/hunting camp for myself. I'm thinking about something like this: http://outlands.tripod.com/farm/logcabin.htm
I hope you manage to get "the man" to allow you to build your home.
In the county where I own the land, they make no distinction between full time home or camp. both are of equal requirements.
Right now my dreams are on indefinite hold. THis late summer, my Sister died, my brother-in-law is battling cancer, and I was run over by a dog named Harley and have a torn MCL and a possible partially ruptured ACL. Sometimes life gets in the way of your dreams. :-\
Our future cabin site patiently awaits. Maybe next year we can get something going. I missed seeing the peak color, but it is still very pretty up here right now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/cabinsite3.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/cabinsite1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/cabinsite2.jpg)
Looks like the site prep guy was there. What is next? the slab?
Jeff don't give up on that dream get er done
No slab. Footings and block wall foundation next, but that will have to wait until I'm more able bodied next year.
We have been wanting to build on our land versus using our camper, which is still great fun to go and hang out. We keep delaying year after year. Some of that is use not feeling we are financially ready, some is concerned we don't have time to focus on it until after we retire.... however we keep up with dream and it will happen one day, Lord willing!
I know I am not financially ready, but I also know if I wait until I am, it will never happen. I'm approaching this like the old saying on how do you would possibly eat an elephant. One bite at a time. :)
Let me know when you're ready :)
Yes, I am looking forward to coming up there and help you build it.
Nature has gone on without me while I've been gone. First I see a dead tree fell and missed the outhouse by about 6 feet. I then opened the outhouse door and discovered I forgot to hang out the 'no critters are welcome' sign.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20141012_164128.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20141012_164213.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20141012_164349.jpg)
Holy Smokes, that tree "missed" making a "mess", but it looks like your critters had already done that dirty deed. :-\
Hi Jeff and everybody,
Your key sentence re foundation based on what you first said may be here:
' so I want to use materials from the land as much as I can to complete the cabin. I have lots of rock and stone near by that I may be able to get cheap.'
In the site picture, do we see sand waiting to be screened for rock mortar, screenings that then go to drainage gravel? That light material might mix up directly with portland to load around rock in a slip form. Pull your nice rock to the front and point them later if you want to look at rock instead of cement. Could get you out of the ground where you need to be. Use lots and the building inspection gestapo might not even throw a fit when they catch up to you.
Available backhoe guy to help screen? Cheap concrete mixer perched forward into the near dump position used as a crude mortar mixer? lumber dunnage for formwork?
If you look into rock building there is a lot to love. The only real problem with it is everybody who has ever once picked up a rock finds it necessary to tell you 'you're doing it all wrong.' They can't help themselves... it's something you have to get used to. It's a different language than timber, but the rock will also talk to you if you listen to it.
best luck,
jim
It looks like my dreams of building a cabin on my property are now over. After spending an hour on the phone with the inspector yesterday it is obvious to me that they only care about protecting themselves and the county they work for. He said the only way I could use my own lumber in any framing application is if it were inspected. He also said he knew of no inspectors that would do it. He also said he didn't care what people said, that building with non-kiln dried lumber was not good. He said that his concerns were not so much for the person building the cabin, but for those that may acquire it down the road. He said he would work with me and gladly let me use it if I could find a state law that would allow me to do it that would relieve him or his county of any liability down the road, and also allow him to let other people do it because I did it. I never got confrontational with him, and left the conversation saying I would try to find something, but I left the call with a broken spirit. I know I'll never be able to afford to buy all the store bought framing lumber to make this happen.
If the laws are going to be changed, it'll have to be a grass roots effort.
Big Business surely won't go along with it. :-\
We should come up with a form type letter or letters to all send our Representatives'.
That is the real problem. The lumber inspectors are all owned by the big lumber companies. They don't want you using your own lumber. The building inspectors are mandated to follow the rules I guess. I thought that there was a clause where the inspector could make decisions at his discretion. I was told this is not so by the inspector.
Another idea may be to have an engineer write a letter to the county on an alternative that he recommends. As an example, they may accept Timbore treatment rather than kiln dried. Through the forum or at your church or club etc maybe there is an engineer, inspector, lumber grader that would be willing to pitch in. I do that a lot here to help out a hobby project or someone I am an acquaintance with. We will be praying for divine intervention Jeff!!
Could you possibly build most of the cabin with logs and purchase graded lumber for the structural members on the roof? Another option would be to find a friendly engineer to do the calculations using logs or timbers.
I don't understand the inspectors reluctance on using your our lumber I would have no problem with it in my jurisdiction. I would ask him for the Code Sections that prevent you from doing this project and his remark on non KD lumber is an opinion, not a code section. If you can let me know what code you are under I can do some research to see if I can help. Just pm me. I remember talking to you about the vertical log construction at Boonville. There must be an engineer that could help you out.
He had already swung me away from actual vertical log construction, but I had a plan for that when I called him. One of the things I asked him was about how do log home builders build? He said the logs must be graded now. ???
My altered plan was to build the deck using two by tens of bigtooth aspen. (Actually a hardwood, so that would throw a wrench into a softwood structural lumber grade wouldn't it.) I would deck it with T&G OSB. I then was going to build 2by6 (My wood, species undetermined) stud walls, but set them in 2" from the side of the deck. Sheet the walls with osb. Then I would split my cedar logs and use them basically as siding. They would sit on the edge I had left by setting the walls in two inches. I had not planned any farther than this at this point as there was no sense in it until I had an idea if they would allow my wood. The half log clad stick built bottom floor I thought would satisfy his concerns with structure and the ability to reach the required R value. He said that that plan was okay, other than I must used graded wood. He said I could sheet with my lumber, but I certainly didn't want to do that.
I wanted to use logs to create joists for a loft in one half of the cabin and have the living area open to the top using rafters and a ridge beam(not board).
Here is the Michigan code link that Chet just sent me. I have no idea if I can find a loop hole in there or not.
https://archive.org/details/gov.mi.building
Another example of gov over reach. I think I would talk to someone else, I wish you good luck with the fight.
Just because he doesn't know anyone who can come out and grade stamp your lumber, doesn't mean that there isn't anyone who can do it.
I had a traveling grader come here and do a frame for a customer. And the grader provided paperwork for the building inspector.
There are traveling graders out there.
Also, the Timber Framers Engineering Council (TFEC) last spring held a grading workshop where engineers, architects, and timber framers were taught how to grade timbers. I don't know if they did much into standard 2by framing stock or not. But I know an engineer from MI who took the course. I may know two from MI who did and one lives in UP. They didn't get a certificate to grade lumber but they got training so that they understand what good timbers and bad timbers look like.
I know I brought them some bad timbers to show them so that they'd understand what bad was.
Also, they are doing this workshop again this April.
Jim Rogers
I've lived and worked in Michigan my entire life and I have never met or heard of a softwood grader here. Michigan, at least the lower peninsula and the east end of the Upper peninsula do not have any softwood mills. We have plenty of structure board plants though.
My reasons for using my own lumber are mostly economic. I have a mill, I have access to trees or logs. If I have to hire someone to travel that is going to cost me probably several hundred dollars, it doesn't help much.
Jeff, is there a lumber business that might swap some grade stamped lumber for some rough sawn? I've sold to small lumber yards that want to stock rough sawn for fences, etc., that might get you enough structural lumber at no more cost to you.
Mark
Rule 504 does allow for Alternative building materials and methods , but you will need an engineer to submit the design and stamp the plan to get it approved.
Not the news anyones wants to hear. :( I am sorry to hear this.
Jeff,
Not sure how large you want the cabin but thinking "out of the box". Have you heard much about tiny house nation? Building codes don't apply so you could use rough cut & build on a trailer. Another thought at least for NY codes is they don' regulate structures under 144 sq. ft. If it's similar there you could build several small buildings & create a complex.. Cooking cabin, sleeping cabin, lounging cabin, I think you get the picture. I'm a code enforcement officer in NY & don't agree with some codes. Fortunately I am able to allow building with rough cut.
Good luck & I hope you are able to see your dream of a cabin happen..
Jim
jdtuttle, can you build those as a primary building, or only as an accessory? We can build up to 200 square feet in MA, but it has to be an accessory to a code compliant dwelling.
I think Holmes is referring to section 104? of the IBC - if so here is an excerpt. Emphasis added by me. Far as I can tell Michigan uses IBC at least as of 2012.
"International Building Code 104.11
Alternative materials, design and methods of construction
and equipment. The provisions of this code are not
intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit
any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed
by this code, provided that any such alternative has
been approved. An alternative material, design or method of
construction shall be approved where the building official finds
that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the
intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material,
method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the
equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength,
effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety."
As far as the liability part - section 104.8 touches on at least part of that - the inspector is not liable to begin with. As far as the county liability, and setting precedent - I don't know.
"International Building Code 104.8
Liability. The building official, member of the board of
appeals or employee charged with the enforcement of this
code, while acting for the jurisdiction in good faith and without
malice in the discharge of the duties required by this code or
other pertinent law or ordinance, shall not thereby be rendered
liable personally and is hereby relieved from personal liability
for any damage accruing to persons or property as a result of
any act or by reason of an act or omission in the discharge of
official duties. Any suit instituted against an officer or
employee because of an act performed by that officer or
employee in the lawful discharge of duties and under the provisions
of this code shall be defended by legal representative of
the jurisdiction until the final termination of the proceedings.
The building official or any subordinate shall not be liable for
cost in any action, suit or proceeding that is instituted in pursuance
of the provisions of this code."
There are numerous other sections that talk about the authority of the code enforcement official to vary from the rules, etc. It comes down to whether he wants to or not. If it takes him out of his comfort zone it's a tough argument to win. Is he just an inspector or is he the head of the inspections department? I would try to go at least one level above him and plead your case. If you bring your lifetime of experience as a commercial sawyer of lumber to light, and plead a hardship that you are financially hindered by not being able to use your own lumber, you might get lucky and find a sympathetic ear higher up the food chain. I'd also work the "at least the equivalent" angle of Section 104 to offer the upsizing of members.
Good luck, don't let them get you down.
What about using "ungraded" material in Chippewa County for constructing barns and other outbuildings etc.?
I didn't ask about that. This guy has my number. When I started talking to him, he asked me if my property was the one with the shallow crawl space excavation. I said yes. He said it was a nice building spot. He had stopped and walked around it and looked at the soil types. "Good drainage" he said. He was looking to see if I had put any footings in without a permit dime to a dollar. I knew I could prepare the site without a permit. He acknowledged that.
As an inspector I wouldn't go on property without permission. It is called trespassing, or in some cases "Illegal Search".
Jeff, in my experience, they (inspectors) have NOT offered up alternatives or likely solutions. I have found alternatives because of others that were more educated than I on the local codes. I found this information out by talking to people who have lived in the area for a long time and had many experiences with the local inspectors.
It sounds like you have been doing your homework, but I don't want to see you give up. A drive around talking to folks or making phone calls to the right people may open a door.
Some dreams are made to be realized. I almost gave up a bunch of times on our house build but we are still making plans and getting set for it. You may have to change things up a few more times, but you may get there.
Good luck! ;D
One time I was in a bad spot trying to get permission to put a doorway in a fieldstone basement. The solution was to get a retired engineer to 'stamp' it (for a few bucks.) The 'stamp' trumped everything including the inspectors liability issues. Know any 'tin ringers?' You may want to talk to somebody stamping structural stuff.
Otherwise rock walls will probably work and anything built on tires. I see mammoth older motor homes going for about the new cost of the gen set. You only tow it once, the dishes are already in the cupboard and there is no tax bill in the mail. Same deal applies to sea cans around here. My basecamp at the road is a hollowed out 30' camper trailer with adjoining 20' container for my trikes, saws and snowmachine.
Best luck!
You must be single. ;)
Jeff, I think you might want to contact me. I have just logged in for 60 minutes as I am not a "full time member" of the forum but have been lurking on this site for about 6 months now. i came across your problem with the log cabin in Chippewa County. I am a Registered Professional Engineer in the State of Michigan and there is a possibility that I may be able to help you. I have quite a bit of experience with the Michigan building codes and have "worked" with multiple instances where alternative methods were approved. The biggest hurdle you face is the obstacle of having a Code Official who is uncomfortable allowing the construction of something that he can't find in a specific Section and sub-section of the Code book. I believe you have the access to my registration and can E-mail me directly. I too am a troll and have a cabin and property in Chippewa Co.
Welcome to the Forum! And thanks for offering to help. :)
Welcome to the forestry forum Calb! Email sent!
I believe that is what they call serendipity.
You can say that again! :D
I hope this works out for you, I will root for David over Goliath every time.
8)
I would love to see this project get back on track.
That's what I'm talking about! Sometimes things just burst out of the bushes!
;D :D ;D :D
Quote from: BCsaw on February 03, 2015, 10:34:57 PM
That's what I'm talking about! Sometimes things just burst out of the bushes!
;D :D ;D :D
That's why I carry a big stick. :D
taz-smiley smiley_smash
Welcome to the Forestry Forum calb. 8)
A glimmer of hope!
Welcome calb.
Once you get that engineering stamp the code official should wipe his hands of this situation as long as the building matches the drawings or design specifications. I'm on my second unconventional construction project. 8)
Quote from: Jeff on January 31, 2015, 10:04:57 AM
It looks like my dreams of building a cabin on my property are now over. After spending an hour on the phone with the inspector yesterday it is obvious to me that they only care about protecting themselves and the county they work for. He said the only way I could use my own lumber in any framing application is if it were inspected. He also said he knew of no inspectors that would do it. He also said he didn't care what people said, that building with non-kiln dried lumber was not good. He said that his concerns were not so much for the person building the cabin, but for those that may acquire it down the road. He said he would work with me and gladly let me use it if I could find a state law that would allow me to do it that would relieve him or his county of any liability down the road, and also allow him to let other people do it because I did it. I never got confrontational with him, and left the conversation saying I would try to find something, but I left the call with a broken spirit. I know I'll never be able to afford to buy all the store bought framing lumber to make this happen.
If building with non kiln dried lumber is so bad then how have all of these older building structures held up for so long? If these same people were around when this country was founded the settlers would all have died from exposure! Things like this really are a shame. It's your land and you ought to be able to do what you want.
Well, the snow is melting you got plans yet?
Yea, dreams have changed to move to Alaska walk into the wilderness 60 miles and do whatever I want. >:(
Can you walk that far? :D
If I could make a few phone calls to help out,I would. Sorry to hear about your dream. :(
Yeah, I don't know what the world is coming to. Old farm houses built of ungraded lumber and hand hewn beams on rock walled cellars stand for 150+ years. New houses built of aspenite, graded # 2 lumber and engineered trusses maybe 40 years if your lucky before major work needs done. That aspenite can't even hold a screw for a weather vane on the roof or a dish antenna on the side of the house without a light wind rocking them out. That's progress for ya.
Go get 'em Swampdonkey!! How right you are.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 11, 2015, 06:21:51 AM
Yeah, I don't know what the world is coming to. Old farm houses built of ungraded lumber and hand hewn beams on rock walled cellars stand for 150+ years. New houses built of aspenite, graded # 2 lumber and engineered trusses maybe 40 years if your lucky before major work needs done. That aspenite can't even hold a screw for a weather vane on the roof or a dish antenna on the side of the house without a light wind rocking them out. That's progress for ya.
40 years? Doing better then us then :D
The building regs have been tightened more here too. There was a major flap a few years back about new houses being built, that leaked. Basically design flaws, no eaves or overhangs to shed water, flat roofs, internal guttering, monolithic cladding and untreated radiata pine. Add all that together and there where houses that didn't last 10 years.
So of course the answer was to bring in new laws about who was certified to do and inspect ANY building. A DIY builder of course doesn't have the certs, so wasn't able to build anything any more.
Crazy part is, it wasn't DIY builders that were the problem. They tend to overbuild, use traditional designs, and plan for the house to last the rest of their life. It was the professionally designed and built houses that failed, because they tried to cut costs to much, and follow some fashionable design trend.
They have amended the law now so that you can be an "Owner Builder" with a few extra inspections, and a limit on how many houses you can build. So at least they have acknowledged it was an issue and done something about it.
Jeff - have you thought about a trailer mounted portable house? All sorts of issues go away once it's a trailer.
Plans can change but Dreams happen when we are asleep
Just read the thread regarding your cabin Jeff.
I was in contact with the head guy of the government in Sask regarding the building code and ungraded lumber. He had been in construction previously and understood what I was doing in regards to my Log Cabin building. I mentioned that the building inspector was adamant about graded lumber for structural wall, etc. His response was that if the lumber you are using is better than what you can buy, so knot free straight, building to code size or greater that common sense should apply. Being able to prove by information on grading lumber etc knot size location etc. and 4x timbers or greater did not need a stamp.again using timbers that exceed requirements. So far we can get away from having to up grade a log wall to meet so called R18 as in other provinces.
Just a case in wis. The Log cabin need a higher energy value so the Builder had to add 2 inches of styrofoam to one wall, then he covered it with a 10 inch boards chinking between to make it look like logs, the cabin just passed the requirement. Then they needed to increase the window size, took out r10 log wall for the window opening 3x4 or there abouts and now passed with flying colors. The energy engineer that did the calculations just said don't even ask how that is more efficient we have not figured out their reasoning. From my research there is a push for graded logs for log cabins homes, but most of the push for this is coming from the big log building companies, to feather their own nest. When I bought my logs they were scaled and graded #2 so far no issues.
Quote from: landscraper on January 31, 2015, 06:53:08 PM
"International Building Code 104.8
Liability. The building official, member of the board of
appeals or employee charged with the enforcement of this
code, while acting for the jurisdiction in good faith and without
malice in the discharge of the duties required by this code or
other pertinent law or ordinance, shall not thereby be rendered
liable personally and is hereby relieved from personal liability
for any damage accruing to persons or property as a result of
any act or by reason of an act or omission in the discharge of
official duties. Any suit instituted against an officer or
employee because of an act performed by that officer or
employee in the lawful discharge of duties and under the provisions
of this code shall be defended by legal representative of
the jurisdiction until the final termination of the proceedings.
The building official or any subordinate shall not be liable for
cost in any action, suit or proceeding that is instituted in pursuance
of the provisions of this code."
For some reason, they specifically excluded this section from the Michigan Building Code.
"PART 4. BUILDING CODE
R 408.30401 Applicable code.
Rule 401. Except as provided in R 408.30401a, the provisions of the
international building code, 2006 edition, including appendices F, G, and H,
except for sections 104.8,"
What happens if the inspector acted with malice, are they still going to stand behind a crook? They have in the past here, they get a new job title. And all big smiles in the court house.
We can remove one for malfeasance, misfeasance or criminal action.
Hey Jeff, I realize it has been a couple of years since this was posted, but have you thought about running a building design such as post and beam past your inspector? If you take away the aspect of structural design with rough sawn lumber you might be able to get a cabin up. I would see if he would allow store bought graded post and beams to be the primary structural frame, and then fill in between the posts with rough sawn lumber. buy engineered trusses, and put up rs boards on your roof. I realize there would be some costs involved, but you would still be able to utilize your materials on hand. Just some thoughts. I live in Crawford County and the inspector is rather lenient as long as the structure is sound he could care less what is not structural.
Doubt it would do much good. I had decided to go traditional log instead of vertical, and the response to that was I needed certified logs. So, having been totally disillusioned, I'll find something else to dream of.
Wow! that just doesn't make any sense.
I've run into everything from "gotta be graded" to "this is cool, go for it". My building official has said "We both know it's BS but it is the law", he's just doing his job. To cover everyone we came to a compromise here. I can bring a grader in or have an engineer write a letter. I chose the latter, the letter cost ~$350. Since I've been to grading school and the engineer is a friend I taught him how to grade.
I suspect that if we would all hang together we could change the model code for residential building.
I wonder what that means Jeff. Since they are logs, the only thing I can think of is an SFI stamp (or the like). Need management plans to build a cabin. :D
It all sounds like, "make it hard, and they won't bother me". ::)
Laws are proposed by someone, it can be a citizen or a special interest. In the case of construction laws the proposal is made to the ICC, a non profit that creates the model building codes. They then open the proposal to public comment and their membership considers the proposal and comments, votes on it and potentially adds it to the model code. Membership is open, I have made comments to their proposals in the past. The model code has no force of law, it is a proposal that is prepared on a 3 year cycle. The model code then goes to the state legislatures and again there is a time for public comment before the legislature considers, amends and votes on the new code. They may operate on a 3 year cycle or any period of their choosing. The building code is then adopted into the state code of laws, published and the building departments are charged with enforcing the laws that pertain to construction. All laws are in legal terms called codes, another term for codified (written) laws. When we become angry with the inspector or the cop for enforcing laws that we chose not to participate in the creation of, is it his fault? This is not to say that there are not people in this world who take pleasure in bullying others. As always we are dealing with human personalities. That is one reason to know and understand what the law says.
When we become aware of a law that we do not agree with and choose to not voice our concerns with our elected representatives, are we acting as responsible citizens? People are busy and engrossed in their own lives and life is plenty full for most folks just getting by. That is however why we find ourselves where we are now in so many ways.
Quote from: Don P on April 05, 2017, 06:55:58 AM
Laws are proposed by someone, it can be a citizen or a special interest. In the case of construction laws the proposal is made to the ICC, a non profit that creates the model building codes. They then open the proposal to public comment and their membership considers the proposal and comments, votes on it and potentially adds it to the model code. Membership is open, I have made comments to their proposals in the past. The model code has no force of law, it is a proposal that is prepared on a 3 year cycle. The model code then goes to the state legislatures and again there is a time for public comment before the legislature considers, amends and votes on the new code. They may operate on a 3 year cycle or any period of their choosing. The building code is then adopted into the state code of laws, published and the building departments are charged with enforcing the laws that pertain to construction. All laws are in legal terms called codes, another term for codified (written) laws. When we become angry with the inspector or the cop for enforcing laws that we chose not to participate in the creation of, is it his fault? This is not to say that there are not people in this world who take pleasure in bullying others. As always we are dealing with human personalities. That is one reason to know and understand what the law says.
When we become aware of a law that we do not agree with and choose to not voice our concerns with our elected representatives, are we acting as responsible citizens? People are busy and engrossed in their own lives and life is plenty full for most folks just getting by. That is however why we find ourselves where we are now in so many ways.
It is my understanding though, that certified logs are not part of the Michigan code. This situation that Jeff is in falls on the Inspector and whether or not he feels comfortable with materials or methods provided and his responsibility for being liable.
There were plenty of provisions in the code that would have allowed me to do what I wanted to do. Alternative materials is definitely covered. Kiln dried logs was his hangup there on proposal of conventional log building. This guy was retied from the city, moved north, and became the inspector. The previous inspector allowed up to build my Sister's cabin with no reservations. My plan was even more substantial than that one. I'm not at an age where I want to battle this for who knows how long. Its over. I may sell my land up there and use the money for investing in our home here.
Quote from: Jeff on April 05, 2017, 08:25:29 AM
There were plenty of provisions in the code that would have allowed me to do what I wanted to do. Alternative materials is definitely covered. Kiln dried logs was his hangup there on proposal of conventional log building. This guy was retied from the city, moved north, and became the inspector. The previous inspector allowed up to build my Sister's cabin with no reservations. My plan was even more substantial than that one. I'm not at an age where I want to battle this for who knows how long. Its over. I may sell my land up there and use the money for investing in our home here.
Yup, that's a shame Jeff. The inspector we have now in my county was the same way 20 years ago, He didn't fit well with the locals around here lol. He has finally succumbed. He made me do things that I thought was ridiculous, but I did them any ways. Like building with 12 inch block, spacing my rough sawn joists at 12 inches OC. Now that we have known each other over the years. I asked him, do I still need 12 inch block and 12 in centers. He laughs now.
Your post has really concerned me though, now after several years I am going to do another log build, and it just so happens that my inspector is thinking about retiring, He told me file the permit now and ill approve it, wait, and you might not get an inspector that will. Yikes.
Jeff, I'm not trying to motivate you to do anything :). I am trying to explain the law for those who might be reading. For instance kiln drying is not a legal requirement, arbitrary block sizes or joist spacings are not his call to make. When an inspector asks for something that doesn't sound quite right ask for a citation. If he cannot cite the code chapter and verse that backs him up, he loses. My experience has been a whole lot of the BS begins to drop away as well.
It is wrong for landowners not to be able to fulfill their dreams by using their own logs/lumber to construct their homes. It is presently allowed in come Mississippi counties/jurisdictions but not all of them.
I am on the Docket to meet with our State Legislative Forestry Committee during the next legislative session to push for a State Law allowing non-graded framing lumber across the entire state.
Put the shoe on the other foot. In America the average length of home ownership is 7 years, then the home is sold to someone else. Now we have a home that is for sale built of unknown materials. The structural members of that home are of unknown strength and were sized by someone looking over an upturned thumb who declared it to be good enough. Is that fair to the next buyer? I do agree with you MM. How do we make it fair to that future buyer? In some states an affidavit follows the deed that states that the building was built with ungraded materials and outside of code. I think that is fair. There aren't too many lenders who would want to tie up their money in that. I'm just putting out things to think about.
That was the very thing this inspector told me that made him unbudgable. "I'm not worried about you, I am worried about who comes after you". My reply after hearing that more than a few times ; "I don't care. When I am gone, put me in the center of it and burn it down."
That is another way to handle it, when we file for an exemption post a demolition and cleanup bond to return the land to a clean slate for the next landowner
Quote from: Don P on April 10, 2017, 07:06:57 AM
Put the shoe on the other foot. In America the average length of home ownership is 7 years, then the home is sold to someone else. Now we have a home that is for sale built of unknown materials. The structural members of that home are of unknown strength and were sized by someone looking over an upturned thumb who declared it to be good enough. Is that fair to the next buyer? I do agree with you MM. How do we make it fair to that future buyer? In some states an affidavit follows the deed that states that the building was built with ungraded materials and outside of code. I think that is fair. There aren't too many lenders who would want to tie up their money in that. I'm just putting out things to think about.
I understand the reasoning behind codes and approved methods, but one mans opinion should not interfere with another's progress. Having certified logs was just his opinion, certainly not state code.
I already saw tens of thousands bf of framing lumber each year for homes and various other buildings. My advice to the customer is always to have the architect to notate and specify on the blueprint that #2 and/or rough sawn framing lumber be used. The builder, lender, permitting/inspector, and insurance company all have to sign off on the blueprint before any construction takes place. This works well in most of the counties/cities that I saw, but there are a few that will not allow it. I often hear comments about the lumber being used is some of the best that the inspector sees.
I met with Mississippi's State Agriculture Commissioner last night who is very interested in opening up this option to forestry landowners who are at a dead end wanting to build their home out of their timber.
Sorry but my opinion is that the argument about the potential "next home owner" is a "kneejerk/sky is falling" reaction. Just because another person now owns the home does not mean that all of a sudden the home is substandard and is gonna fall down. The permitting building inspector makes inspections at various stages of construction and verifies that the construction is meeting the building code. If it meets the building code then it is not substandard.
Another Government solution looking for a problem because we are from the government and we are here to help. It would be different If the Inspector would come by to Inspect, give advise to the Builder in a helpful manner instead of the GOTYA imposition. A person should be able to build their own home without government getting in the way. Homes also go thru an Inspection during the next Sale. That inspection is paid for by the Purchaser. It could be noted that this home was built using non-conventional materials or methods but that may also include being over-built beyond required code. I did owner builder on our Pool project 20 years ago. Dealing with the Process was not a warm fuzzy feeling.
When I went for a Gray/Grey water permit for the Cabin the Crew there was just as arrogant. When we had 4 Hurricanes in 2004 many in South Florida had roof damage. There wasn't enough materials to be had to fix them all. Even if you found materials, good luck finding a crew to work on it. During that time we were fending for ourselves. The Inspection process was waived because they couldn't keep up I suppose. We were told to send money and take pictures of our work. God help me if I had to produce those pictures now. My roof is still good so I guess we did something right. If we were selling and an Inspector found something wrong would it hurt the sale of my house that wouldn't be here had I not taken action? I'm not saying the Inspection process is completely unnecessary, I think the process should be reviewed to sway in the benefit of the owner builder. If the Inspector isn't qualified to see a log is stronger than a 2x6 then they shouldn't be in that position. They could make note of it and move on especially for a lil stinkin' cabin. ;)
Enjoying the input on this thread. I still don't understand why having an engineer draw it up and stamp it won't suffice. I live in a very strict county and the plans examiners and inspectors are very aware that they themselves aren't engineers.
Quote from: flyingparks on April 10, 2017, 07:23:53 PM
Enjoying the input on this thread. I still don't understand why having an engineer draw it up and stamp it won't suffice. I live in a very strict county and the plans examiners and inspectors are very aware that they themselves aren't engineers.
In my case, the engineer included a note that I would be using fresh sawn wood:
* The timbers are fresh-sawn Ponderosa Pine, unless noted otherwise. Their moisture content, at fabrication, is approximately 30%.
* The timber sizes shown are nominal. The timber sizes are subject to slight revision; but only under the direct supervision of the engineer-of-record for the frame.
* The timber connections are based on traditional methods - using mortises, tenons, splines, pegs and keys. The connections are designed and detailed under the direct supervision of the engineer-of-record.
The county signed off. When the inspector came to do a pre-pour inspection, I had the ledger boards attached to the inside of my blocks to keep the top two courses in place for the pour. The plans actually specified 2x8 (rough) cedar but I made them 3x10 so I could lock the top two courses together with 4.5" drywall screws. He looked at them and asked why I used heavy cedar and not green stick (treated). I just said "that is what the plans specify" and he never questioned it further!
4.5" drywall screws? 8)
Yep - for the Fastwall blocks, when you have to shorten the length on the final block in a course, you slice the end off, remove the proper amount from the remaining block, add the end back and screw it back in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20160915_Cabin_2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1473998389)
Aha! Very cool.
I do agree with the opinions unfortunately I also know the laws so here is the cite.
check R502.1.1 Sawn Lumber
This is the model code, each state has the option of adopting or modifying. This is the year model MI is working from.
https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/code/553/9813211
If you don't want to read it, a grade stamp is required from an accredited grading agency.
For logs the model code references the log home standard. Which also contains the same language, just insert log instead of sawn lumber.
Many folks get confused between law and enforcement. Some inspectors do not enforce the law. I'm hoping the town cop doesn't enforce the law regarding car inspection tomorrow morning if he sees me taking the car in to the shop. We both know the law and I'm not going to blame him if he gives me a ticket... and I think that law is ALL about the money. My opinion is irrelevant.
What MM is doing is the right thing to do when we don't agree with a law. It has been successfully done in a number of states, have the state modify the residential building code when they adopt it into their state code of laws to allow self graded lumber.
Just a detail there, I need a grade AND a species for that to make sense. Generally a set of plans will say something like #2 SPF or better (don't reference SYP unless you want to talk about this a whole lot more). Typically the callout on the plans is and has been #2 SPF or better anyway. The reason for referencing species and grade is that grading is done the same irrespective of species but each species has different design values (strengths for lack of a better term). Simply put, a stick of #2 white oak is stronger than a stick of #2 white pine. If I just call for #2 and I'm thinking white oak and you are thinking white pine, we have a problem.
Some of us don't have the money to pay for engineered drawings. I wanted to build a cabin from materials I could source from my own property. This entire plan hinged on being able to afford to do it.
Quote from: Jeff on April 10, 2017, 08:36:00 PM
Some of us don't have the money to pay for engineered drawings. I wanted to build a cabin from materials I could source from my own property. This entire plan hinged on being able to afford to do it.
Understood Jeff. Whats the big picture? How much are you willing to spend on non-building costs vs. how much your non-building costs will be? It appears you don't want to spend any money on non-building costs. There are places out there where you can do it that way. In fact, there are places everywhere you can do this. But would you want to live there? No. You want to live where you already own the lot and who can blame you. It's beautiful.
About 10% of my total costs are going to engineers, energy modelers, and the good old county. Every time I write a check I think about how much work I have done to come up with that money...I think about this for 10-20 minutes before I sign that check. Then I sign it, because in the end I know it will be worth it.
It can get incredibly frustrating out there in the building your own house world. A lot of requirements that were completely unheard of a short time ago.
In my opinion, engineers are totally worth the small investment. Mine has caught a few things that I didn't think of when I sent him my drawings. Those things would have been a pain down the road. I'm in no position to tell people how to spend their money (I just drilled a well to 1151', a new FF record! 8)).
Long story long, if you don't see it happening then cut ties. I can assure you the building department won't get any easier. I know that in strict counties, property values are higher. Most likely because people can't just put up some heinous, unsafe building a foot from your property. If that type of thing isn't a concern to you I would think about exploring some other areas not too far away where the property owner has a lot more rights. We have plenty of those areas around here.
It bums me out knowing how frustrated you are with this project. I wish you nothing but the best.
Sir, I wish I had caught you before you gave up on your log home. Here is what I did as a person poor people felt bad for for not having squat. I told the inspector what ever they wanted to hear, got my permit. Put in my foundation and got my inspection. Ordered my power on a pole and got it inspected. Then did what I wanted and never called anyone again. No homeowners insurance and did not care. Lived for years and did not care. They found a way to tax me and I paid in full on time, and did not care. Even sold it as is way below market and did not care. Lived happily ever after. Even went to county and asked about a CO. Costs double and they just write can not see whatever when they can't see it. Did not bother and did not care. It was what I had to do to have a place to live, period. It's your dream, period. And that's the cheapest way you can go. Besides, no one messes with a woodsy guy who has a beard.
There are 2 empty lots within about 5 miles of here. One got up to the second floor walls the other to the rafters before coming back down. One of the families I saw on the internet receiving this same kind of advice. I warned him twice to go in and have a talk but folks on the net were telling him what he wanted to hear. All I can say is don't build more than you can afford to lose if you go that route.
A person would be a fool to take such advice.
And not care. :D
Anyone that entertains the thought of trying to skip over the codes should watch the true story called "still mine"
https://youtu.be/LdIYsoeEgfk
While I respect civil disobedience it can have a high price. Some of you might remember me working on this alone some years ago. It looks like the timing is better now. TN recently passed a native lumber law, it sounds like a couple of our members are actively pursuing something similar in their states.
I do not believe anyone is born knowing how to grade lumber or with an understanding of structural mechanics. I've seen some pretty miserable results of that kind of arrogance, in my own work as well. The quickest way to kill something like this is to have failures. The old "I've been doing it this way for X years" is usually what a lawyer calls a class action. Think about doing this along with some form of training, provided by the land grant colleges, it wouldn't hurt if the engineering students were there too although I've spoken with ours about that and they don't want to train their students, go figure... one step at a time. Anyway, clear cool heads and keep thinking :).
I am just glad I have the inspector that I have. We have lengthy conversations almost daily about all this. One thing he told me is Authoriy has jurisdiction (AHJ) supersedes the codes, and he has no problem approving my log home.
In West Virginia, Morgan County where I am building my retirement home they inspect the septic installation and the electric company inspects the electrical connection to the house. Beyond that the licensed contractor is responsible for the stability of the structure. Strange but true.
Jon
Didn't realize this story, "Still Mine", was here in New Brunswick.
Maclean's Magazine
"The film is based on the true story of Craig Morrison, who became locked in an epic feud as provincial bureaucrats tried to stop him from building a house on a parcel of his own land in St. Martins, overlooking the Bay of Fundy. Morrison was a master carpenter and sawmill operator, but because his hand-milled lumber was unstamped and his materials didn't conform to the building code, the province tried to block construction, then threatened to bulldoze the house. After six court appearances and a front-page story in the St. John Telegraph Journal, Morrison eventually won his battle three years ago at age 91"
The old fella, "Craig Morrison", passed away 4 years ago.
That movie was instrumental in my not trying to "Put up the good fight" If I was in my 30's, sure, bring it on, however I'm not. I don't want to spend a good share of what might end up being the last part of my life fighting something. Think of that what you may, but I'd rather find happiness doing something else than choosing periods of probable anger and disappointment. I'm content with my decisions. Anybody want to buy a great chunk of U.P. land? All it takes is money to make it into your dream instead of mine. :)
I agree with you there. There is bliss elsewhere, not fighting government. :)
Quote from: Weekend_Sawyer on April 11, 2017, 10:49:02 AM
In West Virginia, Morgan County where I am building my retirement home they inspect the septic installation and the electric company inspects the electrical connection to the house. Beyond that the licensed contractor is responsible for the stability of the structure. Strange but true.
Jon
That's how it was where I built my Tenn house except I had to have my final electrical checked too. All he did was walk around the living spaces, made sure I had smoke detectors, GFI and AFI breakers. Said I did a nice job for not being a contractor and was amazed I had built a house with Styrofoam which he had never seen before. He signed the box and left.
Next power bill had the word "temp" taken off under description.
Quote from: Jeff on April 11, 2017, 11:10:06 AMI don't want to spend a good share of what might end up being the last part of my life fighting something. Think of that what you may, but I'd rather find happiness doing something else than choosing periods of probable anger and disappointment. I'm content with my decisions.
Jeff, that is my exact attitude regarding the rest of my allotted time here on this earth. If I can make it better for my family, then OK, but my days in the trenches are behind me.
You should definitely stay away from trenches Lynn. You would fall in and mangle your other wing. ::)
I understand we must have rules but pretty darn sad when you can't build on your own land. When we built our house I sawed all the lumber and poured the cement foundation. Only thing they required was a building permit and a inspection on the septic system.
Quote from: Weekend_Sawyer on April 11, 2017, 10:49:02 AM
In West Virginia, Morgan County where I am building my retirement home they inspect the septic installation and the electric company inspects the electrical connection to the house. Beyond that the licensed contractor is responsible for the stability of the structure. Strange but true.
Jon
Jon - If I understand it correctly, it is the same way over in Marion County (Fairmont area) too. A buddy of mine is TRYING to build a combo workshop and house all on one slab. The only thing the county requires is the septic. The electric company decides if they will hook up to you system or not.
Bruce
The code, especially the portions on graded lumber, have a lot more to do with protecting big business than protecting people. In my own state (Vermont) almost half of the housing stock was built before 1950. Houses are not routinely falling down on people here. There is still no statewide code so it's always been buyer beware when buying a house. Who buys a house without getting an inspection done anyways. The argument that the next person to own it needs protection via codes doesn't hold water. The town I own land in doesn't have zoning yet. I haven't drawn a single permit for my cabin. If I ever put plumbing in it, I would need a state septic permit. That's it. If the state ever adopts that code I'd still build what I want and tell them to go pound sand and bring an army to stop me, I'm no one's cash cow. But I can understand you not wanting to deal with that Jeff.
I don't buy the "to protect the next owner" bit. If the code is to protect people, it should also protect the original builder, too.
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