Logosol/Woodmizer PH360/365

[Percy]

I been on the hunt for a planer/moulder for a while now. Had my heart set on a Mattison/Wadkin type unit. Have found a couple for cheap but to get them up and running(100KW+ genset, huge dust collection system) the cost gets outta hand fast, even with a 8000.00  cast iron unit. Leads me to my question, has anyone used a PH360 for a while and how has it held up?? I like the fact that the table stays at a fixed height compared to a PH260. I have not been able to find serious "road tests" of this unit. The construction looks similar to our woodmaster 725 which works good but is a tad light as the table moves up and down making extended in/out feed tables a real pain on long stock. This 360 has a moving head which I like, I have a 50 kw Delco/Perkins Genset already which would power this unit no problem. Still, Im apprehensive as I havn't read any serious reports good or bad on this machine....

[longtime lurker]

i am interested in this answer too.

My gut tells me they're probably a bit on the light side for what I do but maybe okay with your species which tends to be way less dense.

All depends on time and volume methinks. If you got the time to double pass your wood im sure its okay on all but the deepest profiling jobs. The price is attractive enough compared with a 20 year old weinig and they come with a warranty... so i think its about balancing expected useage against throughput speed.

Hell if you reach a point where you need more and better heads because this one isnt keeping up you should be able to swing for a nice little SCM or similar - Sometimes its about building volume to justify the real one.
And another thought is that it might be worth looking at it the way I use my old doll...  I use mine solely for 2 or 4 sided planing and then subcontract out the finish profiling to a guy with a machine I cannot justify. I get to do the sizing or DAR that we do all the time in house on my big old beastie to a "good enough" standard for framing lumber. I can run my flooring stock through to predress it and pull it straight to make the other guys moulder go faster and better. And my profiled stuff be it flooring or some deep architraving... is as accurate as a quarter million dollar machine I cant justify can make it.

I think you need to buy the logosol so you can give me a report on it.

[Percy]

i am interested in this answer too.

My gut tells me they're probably a bit on the light side for what I do but maybe okay with your species which tends to be way less dense.

All depends on time and volume methinks. If you got the time to double pass your wood im sure its okay on all but the deepest profiling jobs. The price is attractive enough compared with a 20 year old weinig and they come with a warranty... so i think its about balancing expected useage against throughput speed.

Hell if you reach a point where you need more and better heads because this one isnt keeping up you should be able to swing for a nice little SCM or similar - Sometimes its about building volume to justify the real one.
And another thought is that it might be worth looking at it the way I use my old doll...  I use mine solely for 2 or 4 sided planing and then subcontract out the finish profiling to a guy with a machine I cannot justify. I get to do the sizing or DAR that we do all the time in house on my big old beastie to a "good enough" standard for framing lumber. I can run my flooring stock through to predress it and pull it straight to make the other guys moulder go faster and better. And my profiled stuff be it flooring or some deep architraving... is as accurate as a quarter million dollar machine I cant justify can make it.

I think you need to buy the logosol so you can give me a report on it.   :D :D :D

Basically All I need is a 4 side planer for doing lumber and tongue and groove cedar paneling. We get alot of folks who want the green lumber we sell them planed 4 sides. Have no idea why but its not for me to say. Most planers get wigged with green lumber unless they have a poly covered table like our woodmaster. That flimsly thing will not stop for anything. Ive seen water being squeezed out by the hold down/feed rollers. Its  just too slow. I was hoping a guy could install the poly panels in the logosol but I need to speak with someone who has one.  :P

[Southside]

What about the new Woodmaster 4 head? I have been very happy with mine. 

[Percy]

What about the new Woodmaster 4 head? I have been very happy with mine.

Thanks. I ordered the info kit on your moulder but somehow all I got was one page of info and a plethora of other info on their smaller planers and such. Didn't wanna bug them again. 
Can you tell me the max size it will 4 side and hp of all motors and maximum material removal for each head? Sorry to be a pain as I may bug you for more info yet. I can pm you if you prefer. I'm sure there are others interested in you unit so we can/ should probably stay here. 
Thanks again. 

[longtime lurker]

Then there's the Woodmizer, which is a Logosol. Leastways you'd know the local parts guy.

My situation is that I have this big old Klein 4sider. (Klein were a prominent german manufacturer until the 80's, mine is probably a mid 70's machine. I'm owner number 3)
It's big: hard to get info on Klein but it's pretty much the same as a Pinheiro MF800 in terms of specification and appearance: top and bottom feed rolls, 24" double sided plane, or 20" x 8" as a 4sider, 5 speed feed with a serious reduction so that it can feed wood wet/dry/in half ton pieces.

For what I do it's ideal. 80% of my business is green framing lumber, and we mostly sell that as sized (edges only planed to ensure straightness and a consistant size across a package of timber) with the odd lot of DAR as well. Because of the head configuration with the sides directly opposite each other a workpiece can't jump away from the knife if it's hogging a lot of material like it can with a moulder and it has a linebar type fence so it can make straight boards from bent feedstock. The top head functions as a joiner also. Its a simple setup, easy to maintain, and has a reasonably compact footprint for a machine that weighs 3 ton.

Needs big electrickery though, and enough dust extraction to suck your false teeth out if you aren't careful. It won't mould per se... the top and bottom heads are straight knives and prohibitively expensive to grind a set to profile with unless you needed thousands of meters in a hurry. But its easy enough to do the side knives for edge profiles so decking, T&G, panelling profiles are no problem. I have run one lot of decking: it felt like driving a mack truck to town for a 6 pack and a packet of peanuts. I do run my decking, flooring, panelling feedstock through it though because it pulls it straighter then any moulder can, and with me doing the heavy work it lets the guy who does the finish profiling cruise along and he prices my work accordingly.

These things dont come up often but if you ever get the opportunity to pick one up at a reasonable price grab it.  Kleins are rare, Pinheiro's get snapped up quick, and no-one ever willingly sells a Rex, I am unfamiliar with any north american manufacturers with the same type of machine but im sure there were some.
You need to haunt sawmill closing sales to find one, I think this thing will be with me until either I die or I find a reasonably priced Rex Timbermaster. Yeah, dust and power: it took me a couple years after purchase to get mine installed but its one of the best things I ever did and once you have the dust and power you find you use it. Between you and your son you're in this game for a few years yet and at some point you have to hurt short term to get ahead long term or you're always rubbing up against the inability to work production equipment for the lack of juice/ extraction/air/hydraulic/whatever. And once you got it all those big machines going cheap because people dont have the support for them become possible. I got the klein with a couple boxes of knives/parts/manual and the blower for roughly 10k by the time it was home. (If it was a pinheiro or rex it would have been more like 40 but it was an obscure enough brand that no-one was interested) Now its installed Im thinking big band resaw because I have the support systems to handle it already, and maybe even renting out some space to a cabinetmaker or joinery shop type guy.

I keep looking at the logosol because I would like to bring the profiling in house. I think they're a well made machine, simple setup, i think the manufacturer is in it for the long haul and parts availability shouldnt be an issue going forward. I have concerns about the weight of it because everything I know about moulders tells me weight is important to keep them on the floor. I think the heads are a bit underpowered which means if you need to hog off a lot of material its best done as two passes. I also know that two passes turns a 4 header into an 8 header and always gives a better finish anyway but that it takes twice as long because of it.
To me the logosol is more a shop machine then a sawmill machine - but thats okay because I got the old klein to do the grunt work and the heavy stuff anyway and a shop type machine is all I need. I think I can live with a smallish 4 or 5 header because my long term floorplan has the machine setup behind the 4sider so mouldings can go straight from one outfeed to the next infeed.

So I'm just kind of waiting on feedback from owners, hoping someone working similar wood to mine buys one so I can go look at one working, and with me also theres the fact that "I would like" it rather then "I need it": at $40k AUD for the PH365 I can get a lot of profiling work done up the road.

[Percy]

I talked with Gary at Salmon Arm Woodmizer. 12 weeks wait for one of those puppies(360/365) up here. Sent me a pdf of operation manual which was nice. Check around for a pinhero, Rex, Klein.....no luck......

[Southside]

What about the new Woodmaster 4 head? I have been very happy with mine.

Thanks. I ordered the info kit on your moulder but somehow all I got was one page of info and a plethora of other info on their smaller planers and such. Didn't wanna bug them again.
Can you tell me the max size it will 4 side and hp of all motors and maximum material removal for each head? Sorry to be a pain as I may bug you for more info yet. I can pm you if you prefer. I'm sure there are others interested in you unit so we can/ should probably stay here.
Thanks again.

I will get you all the exact specs, they are in the book which is out in the shop cabinet.  Off the top of my head it's 18" 2 sided planing, and 14" x 6" or 8" (can't remember) 4 sided.  3/16" on the top and bottom for max cut when planing, and I have cut that with no problems, the bottom cutter works as a jointer, the top one like a thickness planer.  When moulding it's a whole lot more as I know my log cabin siding knives really remove some serious material.   I run the side cut at 1/8" when making S4S and 1/4" for T+G, I can look up the max on that as well.  
If you call Woodmaster ask for Barry Bland, he designed the thing, and can tell you where every nut and bolt is on it, what size they are, he know the machine inside and out.  I spent an hour and half on the phone with him before I decided what machine to buy.  
Now I am probably about the first guy to get upset with the way engineers design and build stuff - it may look good on a CAD drawing but who thought pulling the cab on a truck was a good idea to change the injectors?  Anyway - I have to admit they used a lot of common sense when building this, you can get your hands around stuff to oil and clean, adjustments are straight forward and no special tools required.  
The variable speed goes to 52 FPM, but I keep it around 20 - 26 FPM as that is a good working speed for two guys, past that and you don't have time to choose the best face, you are lunging for boards, can't keep them constantly fed,  etc.  I ran a bunch of 10" white oak last weekend like that and zero hesitation on the part of the machine, no snipe either if you keep it constantly fed.  I have around 1000 bft of white oak flooring to run this weekend when it gets out of the kiln, 3"-6" so that will be effortless.  

[Percy]

What about the new Woodmaster 4 head? I have been very happy with mine.

Thanks. I ordered the info kit on your moulder but somehow all I got was one page of info and a plethora of other info on their smaller planers and such. Didn't wanna bug them again.
Can you tell me the max size it will 4 side and hp of all motors and maximum material removal for each head? Sorry to be a pain as I may bug you for more info yet. I can pm you if you prefer. I'm sure there are others interested in you unit so we can/ should probably stay here.
Thanks again.

I will get you all the exact specs, they are in the book which is out in the shop cabinet.  Off the top of my head it's 18" 2 sided planing, and 14" x 6" or 8" (can't remember) 4 sided.  3/16" on the top and bottom for max cut when planing, and I have cut that with no problems, the bottom cutter works as a jointer, the top one like a thickness planer.  When moulding it's a whole lot more as I know my log cabin siding knives really remove some serious material.   I run the side cut at 1/8" when making S4S and 1/4" for T+G, I can look up the max on that as well.  
If you call Woodmaster ask for Barry Bland, he designed the thing, and can tell you where every nut and bolt is on it, what size they are, he know the machine inside and out.  I spent an hour and half on the phone with him before I decided what machine to buy.  
Now I am probably about the first guy to get upset with the way engineers design and build stuff - it may look good on a CAD drawing but who thought pulling the cab on a truck was a good idea to change the injectors?  Anyway - I have to admit they used a lot of common sense when building this, you can get your hands around stuff to oil and clean, adjustments are straight forward and no special tools required.  
The variable speed goes to 52 FPM, but I keep it around 20 - 26 FPM as that is a good working speed for two guys, past that and you don't have time to choose the best face, you are lunging for boards, can't keep them constantly fed,  etc.  I ran a bunch of 10" white oak last weekend like that and zero hesitation on the part of the machine, no snipe either if you keep it constantly fed.  I have around 1000 bft of white oak flooring to run this weekend when it gets out of the kiln, 3"-6" so that will be effortless.  

Thanks much!! Can you say/willing to say how spensive it was in its current state...as in ready to work? Details of your power supply, feed system, dust extraction etc.... Told you I would be a pain in the butt ;D ;D

[JPMcCullum]

Ok guys, I'm a little late to the table on this. I have a PH360 run off an 80kw gen set with a 5000cfm dust collector. I have not run green lumber through it so I have no information regarding that. I have S4S'd 10" reclaimed white oak and have no issues with power. Knife steel quality is obviously the biggest issue here, but I can attest that the motors will turn smoked knives in the stock with the only adverse side effect being a burnt popcorn smell. If you know you know. In applications where I'm trying to maintain the original face on one side, running original side face down, I do have some feed issues with the wood hanging up on what would amount to the jointer outfeed table when the bottom cutter is turned off and the tables should be dead level. I've just gotten used to end trimming my stock at 10 degrees so it'll ramp itself up onto the outfeed. Also, the holdover immediately after the lefthand cutter remains pretty stiff, and if during feeding there's any interruption you'll need to give the stock being fed a tap to nudge it past that holdover. The machine could use another dust collection pickup immediately following the bottom cutter head and before the left-hand side cutter to keep the holdovers free of collecting chips and dust. 

Those are the only issues I've really encountered. Setup time is fairly quick and straight forward. I'm using the logosol dust collection manifold unit retrofitted to my shop ductwork. It's not the prettiest but it works well.  

I'm a little surprised at the small amount of user testimonial on this machine given how long all its iterations have been available. In response to the idea that if you were to buy the Woodmizer model that parts would be readily available, I'm not sure. Baileysonline has a direct line to the mothership and it can still be a bit of a wait to get certain parts from Helsinki. That's based on fairly limited experience, and if Woodmizer can get parts quick I wouldn't hesitate to get their unit if you're in the market. In shopping for the Woodmizer unit they made no mention of the collection manifold you need to handily manage the five possible collection pickups on the machine. Hope this helps!

[Percy]

Thanks for the info. I received my 360, woodmizers version, at the beginning of December. Im learning.....the machine does have alot of power. The tooling/sharpening equipment  is a bit more signifcant, cost wise than I thought. but with a decent collection of knives im accumulating and learning how to sharpen them, things are getting profitable.....Getting my head around the logistics of what the machine can and cant do has taken a bit more time for me than I thought it would have.......I must think im smarter than I really am :D :D :D :D

[JPMcCullum]

Thanks for the info. I received my 360, woodmizers version, at the beginning of December. Im learning.....the machine does have alot of power. The tooling/sharpening equipment  is a bit more signifcant, cost wise than I thought. but with a decent collection of knives im accumulating and learning how to sharpen them, things are getting profitable.....Getting my head around the logistics of what the machine can and cant do has taken a bit more time for me than I thought it would have.......I must think im smarter than I really am :D :D :D :D

How are you going about sharpening your knives? I've been hand lapping with wet sandpaper and a piece of marble between short runs just to keep touched up. I was looking at the tormek's knife grinding jig, but am now considering running tct carbide knives. I'm trying not to have to spend the money on a profile grinder, but it may be in my future if I discover I like HSS better than carbide. I'm in way over my head because I was really expecting this machine's capabilities to be far less than they actually are. It is a good problem to have. Input is more than welcome!

[Southside]

I have a Tormek and it does well with the planer blades.  My side cutters don't have the holes like yours do so the jig won't hold them so I made up a jig and it works very well.  Now and then I may have to send out a set if they are too far worn to be profile sharpened but otherwise the Tormek serves me well.  

[Percy]

Thanks for the info. I received my 360, woodmizers version, at the beginning of December. Im learning.....the machine does have alot of power. The tooling/sharpening equipment  is a bit more signifcant, cost wise than I thought. but with a decent collection of knives im accumulating and learning how to sharpen them, things are getting profitable.....Getting my head around the logistics of what the machine can and cant do has taken a bit more time for me than I thought it would have.......I must think im smarter than I really am :D :D :D :D

How are you going about sharpening your knives? I've been hand lapping with wet sandpaper and a piece of marble between short runs just to keep touched up. I was looking at the tormek's knife grinding jig, but am now considering running tct carbide knives. I'm trying not to have to spend the money on a profile grinder, but it may be in my future if I discover I like HSS better than carbide. I'm in way over my head because I was really expecting this machine's capabilities to be far less than they actually are. It is a good problem to have. Input is more than welcome!

I bought the Tormek T8 with planer knife jig and molding knife jig. I havn't wrecked any knives yet but setting it up at the precise angle is tricky, at least for me, till you get the hang of it. The molding knife thing is pretty strait forward and works well. The trick there, as southside pointed out to me, is to not let them get too dull..or you be grinding for a while.... :D :D

Im beginning to like this machine as well....it has alot of hormones......Im looking at getting some taller heads and corrugated ones as well. The thicker steel in the corrugated knives means you can get one piece  knives for intricate stuff and stuff that removes alot of material without the "modular" multi  knife profile thing..... 

I have a Tormek and it does well with the planer blades.  My side cutters don't have the holes like yours do so the jig won't hold them so I made up a jig and it works very well.  Now and then I may have to send out a set if they are too far worn to be profile sharpened but otherwise the Tormek serves me well.  

Id be interested in a pic or two of your molder knife jig.... ;D ;D

[boardmaker]

Southside,

I'd be interested in a pic of your jig too.  I never even knew Tormek made this.  I have a bunch of corrugated knives.  I also have a smaller foley profile grinder.  The profile grinder isn't as easy as one would hope.  This Tormek might be the solution for light touchups.

[JPMcCullum]

The model number for that tormek molding knife sharpener is TOR-SVP80

[Dewey]

You really don't need a GenSet...  I run my 4 sider which has a total of 85 HP of 3 phase motors including Blower off a Phase Converter.. You will find it way cheaper to run over a Genset.

[Percy]

You really don't need a GenSet...  I run my 4 sider which has a total of 85 HP of 3 phase motors including Blower off a Phase Converter.. You will find it way cheaper to run over a Genset.

Unfortunatley, my mill site is off grid, closest power line is about a mile away... close to 100,000.00 to get power in there....

[JPMcCullum]

You really don't need a GenSet...  I run my 4 sider which has a total of 85 HP of 3 phase motors including Blower off a Phase Converter.. You will find it way cheaper to run over a Genset.

We're not exactly off grid, but 3-phase is several miles away and cost prohibitive. I can run for quite a while on a 500 gallon lp tank. I'm no expert, so when we got it fired up I didn't realize that the nozzle that regulates fuel flow was loose and I was burning through way more than i needed to. I was ripping lumber one day and it sounded like a chopper was landing next to the shop. I ran outside to find that the unburned fuel blowing by ignited in the exhaust manifold and made me a brand new blast furnace inside the weather jacket. I killed fuel supply, tightened the nozzle, had a new exhaust pipe bent, and now I'm off to the races. A full tank will give me a couple months of production running. 

[Southside]

Ok. Here is my jig. Mind you this is a rather technical piece of equipment so I have applied for a patent and all rights are reserved. Should anyone want one we can discuss an NDA and the required SGU's.  ;)

It starts off with a neodymium interface like this one that I got from a guy named Jeff who lives in Seattle and sells all kinds of stuff.



 

Next comes the jig super structure and body. In case any of you are thinking "Hey that looks like a chunk of 3/4" flat stock that was drilled to serve as a spacer under an idler on a Kobelco excavator undercarriage" you would be wrong. It's strictly one of those unexplainable anomalies that occuur in the universe. Which reminds me I do have to raise up the idlers on the other side of my Kobelco excavator and tighten the track. See how it is such a strange coincidence.


 


The interface is molecularly bonded to the jig body like so..



 

Now I use the electron field produced by the interface and subsequent jig superstructure to affix my profile knife, being careful to only allow the back side of the knife to contact the interface.  This is a critical detail as it prevents neutrons from being released during grinding, which would otherwise result in the knife profile becoming altered in an uncontrollable manner once the knife / sharpening stone entered irreversible critically.



 

And now for the moment you have been waiting for. It's where the rubber hits the road, the pedal hits the metal, the hammer hits the nail. The properly assembled system is placed onto the Tormek rest bar and the side of the stone goes to work.





  

Here is a rare photo of the reaction actually taking place. Millions of contact reactors are engaging and creating a never before seen cutter surface edge, encased in an active bath of Di-oxygen Hydride that will go on to tear through any cellulose component it comes into contact with at 5,000 RPM.



 

And there you have it. The Side cutter Super Sharpening System. Call now to get your very own. Because we are too cheap to buy chairs operators are standing by to take your orders now!!

:D

[Percy]

Ok. Here is my jig. Mind you this is a rather technical piece of equipment so I have applied for a patent and all rights are reserved. Should anyone want one we can discuss an NDA and the required SGU's.  ;)

It starts off with a neodymium interface like this one that I got from a guy named Jeff who lives in Seattle and sells all kinds of stuff.



 

Next comes the jig super structure and body. In case any of you are thinking "Hey that looks like a chunk of 3/4" flat stock that was drilled to serve as a spacer under an idler on a Kobelco excavator undercarriage" you would be wrong. It's strictly one of those unexplainable anomalies that occuur in the universe. Which reminds me I do have to raise up the idlers on the other side of my Kobelco excavator and tighten the track. See how it is such a strange coincidence.


 


The interface is molecularly bonded to the jig body like so..



 

Now I use the electron field produced by the interface and subsequent jig superstructure to affix my profile knife, being careful to only allow the back side of the knife to contact the interface.  This is a critical detail as it prevents neutrons from being released during grinding, which would otherwise result in the knife profile becoming altered in an uncontrollable manner once the knife / sharpening stone entered irreversible critically.



 

And now for the moment you have been waiting for. It's where the rubber hits the road, the pedal hits the metal, the hammer hits the nail. The properly assembled system is placed onto the Tormek rest bar and the side of the stone goes to work.





  

Here is a rare photo of the reaction actually taking place. Millions of contact reactors are engaging and creating a never before seen cutter surface edge, encased in an active bath of Di-oxygen Hydride that will go on to tear through any cellulose component it comes into contact with at 5,000 RPM.



 

And there you have it. The Side cutter Super Sharpening System. Call now to get your very own. Because we are too cheap to buy chairs operators are standing by to take your orders now!!

:D

Whooooaaa!!! Thanks for the detailed explanation Southscience. Brilliant!!! You managed to create the device without incorporating the "flux capacitor"....thereby deleting the risk of inadvertent time travel((no one wants to wake up next to Abe Lincoln after sharpening a molding knife).  ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D

[jjkessler]

I am interested in the wood mixer MP360 as well but, have a capability question that I am hoping someone that owns One can answer.

Can I reach a finished product thickness of .34" after four sided planing?

My main product uses 7/16x4"x10' and 7/16x6"x10' pine (resawn SPF)  as the raw material and the finished size is .34"

Also, how smooth is the finished product? I use a Minimax FS30 with helical head today (single sided planer)