Quarter sawing vs quarter sawn

[OlJarhead]

Seems a bit of a mild scuffle erupted in social media because some of us have argued that there is a difference between quarter sawing and quarter sawn.

Some of us argue that quarter SAWN is simply a way of clarifying a piece of lumber that has it's grain at 90* to the face.

Some universities and foresters argue anything from 45 to 90 but most agree the top quality is 75 to 90.

Rift is technically boards with a grain pattern of 45 to 60* but only when not called quarter sawn lol

Either way, one old technique was to slab off the 1st 3rd of the log, then flat saw the center before taking to two final 3rds and milling them down....which illustrates a point; which is that quarter sawing is a technique to achieve a goal (the most high grade quarter sawn lumber from a log) but not the only means of producing lumber that is quarter sawn.

Ok, done.  

[Dan_Shade]

I think you guys need more work to do if your passing the time on an argument like that.... 

Don't make me find chores for you to do (that's what I do with the kids)! 

[OlJarhead]

lol some of can't help it.

Someone saying a board that is flat sawn can't be quarter sawn lumber and the room erupts lol

[DonW]

I take it that the term, "false quarters", is not used to describe a interim cut twixt rift and quarters 'round these parts.

[OlJarhead]

No idea.  I just learned via a uni article on the subject that some call 75 to 90° Fully Quarter Sawn vs 45 to 75° while others say quarter sawn is 45 to 90 and some 45 to 60 is rft, 60 to 75 is quarter and 75 to 90 is true or full quarter sawn lol

In the end the board doesn't care how it got there, which is my point.

[YellowHammer]

Actually, that is part of the "old definition" and reflects the inaccuracies of the actual usage of the wood product and it's value.

Typical of many NHLA formal definitions.

From general usage quarter sawn (adjective) is anything sawn from "quarters" at an angle not representative to flat sawn wood.  So 45 to 90 degrees, however, it does not reflect axis alignment.

So Quartersawn Wood sold on the market (which is all that matters) must have visible medullary ray fleck no matter how it is sawn.  

This is a definition used by woodworkers and the wholesalers I work with.  If the board does not have fleck on at least one face it is not Quarter Sawn Wood, and will not demand quarter sawn wood prices, and can't be sold as quartersawn wood, even though it may have been sawn with any number of quartersawing techniques and has grain up to 90 degrees.

If it doesn't have fleck, it is downgraded to rift even if the angles are 90°.

If the zebra doesn't have stripes, it's not a zebra.  If a duck doesn't quack, it's not a duck, it's just a foul.    

[OlJarhead]

Thus illustrated my point rather well 😉

[fluidpowerpro]

So if it's a type of wood that never has fleck, the term quarter sawn does not apply?

[WV Sawmiller]

   I like the question above! I think quartersawn is also a requirement for non-flecky wood for use in making musical instruments. The orientation of the grain is the primary concern there and not the fleck.

[Magicman]

Correct Howard. Quarter sawn is generally a definition given by a user/seller of certain hardwood.
 
Some woodworkers require "perfect" quartersawn showing the medullary ray fleck.  

There are some hardwoods such as Walnut that when quartersawn rarely shows medullary ray fleck.  There are some hardwood species that will never show fleck, but it is still quarterwawn.

Quarter sawn SYP never shows medullary ray fleck but it is still quarter sawn.  It is generally referred to a parallel grain and is preferred as flooring because of it's wear durability and as tabletops because of the look.

[OlJarhead]

Technically I disagree with YH and there are numerous articles by various agencies and universities.   The problem seems to be a combination of what sells vs what terminology one uses.

Grain orientation determines a piece of lumber classification re: quarter, rift or flat.

However characteristics may determine what it's called by the buyer and or seller.

Rift is specific in the it is stronger than quarter and has better drying and usage qualities but quarter is prettier.

Flat also has its uses, one being it is the most economical to make.

[DonW]

So if it's a type of wood that never has fleck, the term quarter sawn does not apply?

All wood has fleck or medullary ray. It's a question of how hard you look.

[hacknchop]

Quarter sawn white spruce used in instrument making for example, same goes selecting White ash for canoe builders.I once toured the Millers mill in Indiana nothing but quarter sawn and rift very educational even for a know it all like me.

[OlJarhead]

In species where figure is not required, pieces shall be considered quartered

when 80% of the surface of the required cuttings in the aggregate shows the

radial grain at an angle of 45˚ or less with one face.

Extremly long, format blowing link, fixed by admin 

THere are many articles aboutthis...all use the same definition:  grain orientation over everything else.

[OlJarhead]

https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1033&context=utk_agexfores

The National Hardwood Lumber Association (NHLA) states that quartersawn red oak, white oak and locust will have 90 percent of one face of the required cutting area show figure. As defined by the NHLA, the figure produced from splitting the wood ray in the radial surface should be visible on 90 percent of the wide face.

 

It doesn't matter how you get there, what matters is what the end result is.

In a post on FB a gentleman posted pictures of a flat sawn (method) piece of quartersawn oak (end result) with lots of ray fleck.

In the above link there is a good discussion on method and often one portion of it is to 'flat saw' though the middle....which produces quartersawn lumber after removing the heart (for me, it's easy enough to remove the heart and saw down the center....you can flat saw to it and after it but if the goal is to yield the most quartersawn lumber than that isn't the best method.

Again, there is method and result....they sound the same but one is action, one is result.

[YellowHammer]

Yep, I can saw all the quartersawn wood oak I want, and call it Quartersawn White Oak, however the customer will not care what I call it if it does not have easily visible fleck on at least one face and will not pay the higher price.   

If I purchase quartersawn white oak, quartersawn red oak, from commercial wholesalers, it's sorted for fleck, and I will not accept it, nor pay the higher price if it does not have visible fleck on one face because it will only bring rift or flatsawn prices.   

Selling "quartersawn sycamore" is not possible unless it shows easily visible lacewood patterns on at least one face.  Otherwise it's just "sycamore" and is considered garbage wood.  Fleck brings high dollar, no fleck is birdhouse wood.  That's why I developed my reverse roll method, a "miss" when quartersawing which produces a board without "quartersawn fleck" or "lace"  sells for less than 1/3 the price, if I can sell it at all.  Most quartersawn boards with no quartersawn fleck go directly into the project pile. Lacewood with no lace will not sell no matter what I call it.    

Maple, cherry etc can be quartersawn at any angle but won't sell as Quartersawn Wood unless it has visible fleck.  It will be sold as vertical grain, but at flatsawn prices.    

The instrument makers I sell to will ask for what they describe as "rift" because they want straight grain, the higher angles to 90 degree, but with no fleck.    

I use the customer definitions for quartersawn wood, because they are the ones paying for it and pushing non fleck "quartersawn" wood to the side.  

As I said earlier, a zebra with no stripes may still be scientifically classified as a zebra, the owners at the zoo who paid for it says it's a zebra, the zebra knows it's a zebra, but to the paying families and customers looking at it, it's just a white donkey.  

Same with quartersawn wood, if it doesn't have fleck, to the customer paying me for it, it's not quartersawn wood.

[KWH]

OJ,Thanks for sharing that link it was very informative and easy follow.

[Magicman]

quartersawn red oak, white oak and locust will have 90 percent of one face of the required cutting area show figure. As defined by the NHLA, the figure produced from splitting the wood ray in the radial surface should be visible on 90 percent of the wide face.

This is a YH stated for the above species.  I would certainly add Sycamore to the list.

EDIT:  I see that I was slow on the trigger.  :

[beenthere]

Quarter sawn SYP never shows medullary ray fleck but it is still quarter sawn.  It is generally referred to a parallel grain and is preferred as flooring because of it's wear durability and as tabletops because of the look.

And to add to the conversation, for SYP, the term is Vertical Grain (VG)  (Edge grain EG) (Rift grain) by the "book" (Standard grading rules for SYP). Similar for the western grading rules used to grade lumber. 

Semantics can get in the way here, and can vary depending on who is talking to who, what is being bought and sold, and for what the product is at hand. Hard to pin the tail on the donkey..    :P  

Similar to the parable of the blind man and the donkey. But with sawn wood, don't have to use the smell or taste test.   ;D :D

[OlJarhead]

The key I think is that Rift sawing produces Quarten sawn.. .

Or you can quarter saw up a pine but it still isn't quartersawn oak 😉

[barbender]

Jarhead, I'm honestly confused as to what point you are trying to make here?

[OlJarhead]

That there is a method and a result and one does not make the other.

Meaning Rift sawing method produces quarter sawn lumber.  Flat sawing produces flat, rift and quarter sawn lumber and quarter sawing produces rift sand lumber with some quarter sawn as well.

The problem is the method is called something rather makes sense based at looking at how it's done.  Quarter sawing in general means to quarter the log, then saw the quarters vs rift sawing which means to cut and rotate etc vs flat which us just that saw flat to the deck.


Now the end result, lumber is called something as well but it isn't the same.

Any board flat sawn in the middle of the log, once the heart is removed is classified as quarter sawn.  Doesn't matter how it was milled.


Same with any board quarter sawn from a log that does not meet the requirements to be called quartersawn becomes rift sawn lumber.


The means is not the ends 

This confuses people.

[WV Sawmiller]

   My thoughts are:

Quarter sawing - the process to produce quarter sawed lumber

Quarter sawn - the resulting lumber from the above process that meets the grain orientation for quarter sawn.

   Now that I have resolved that question I will go back to working on world peace and when I complete that I will restore harmony and cooperation in the US Congress. :D :D :D

[Magicman]

The sawmill produces nothing but sawdust.
 
You the sawyer produces quartersawn lumber.

[OlJarhead]

WV - That doesn't explain Rift Sawing which is the process of making Quarter Sawn Lumber 😉