Hello, brand new member.
I'm looking to build my first solar kiln so I can harvest, mill and dry non-structural lumber (decorative beams, T&G paneling and trim from Scots Pine) for my intended 2022 house build.
I have a brother who owns a circular mill (8" depth of cut) and I'd like to build the kiln without having to buy any lumber. I have about 200 utility poles from an old rail line, and intend to mill 2x8 dimensional floor joists from them (yes, I know all about the carcinogenic creosote chemicals, and we take the required precautions when milling)
I also intended to use the poles to make 1x8 (rough cut) planking for the floor, but the question came up, would the creosote flooring adversely affect the wood that I am drying? Would all the lumber smell like the treated poles? Because that would be undesirable.
My other options for the floor planking would be ash (emerald ash borer killed all of our ash trees here in the northeast, so we have this material in abundance), cottonwood poplar, or my last choice would be spruce, as I prefer to save those trees for other projects, as I only have so many nice spruce trees on site. The question is, would un-treated wood survive the proximity to the ground (no concrete pad or stone) and the humidity from the drying process? I really don't want to buy ~$600 worth of marine plywood for the floor...
I'd like to be able to dry 24ft long beams and boards, so my kiln will be 26ft long.
Here is an option for the kiln floor.
1) "Treated" 2x8's for the floor framing
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-01.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623674989)
2) "Treated" rough cut 1x8's for the sub floor planking
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-02.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623674989)
3) "Treated" dimensional cut 2x4's on the perimeter
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-03.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623674990)
4) 1.5" XPS-150 foam for floor insulation
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-04.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623674990)
5) Ash or Poplar finish floor planking
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-05.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623674990)
Thoughts?
How will you set it? Gravel/cement footings and block... I wouldn't go straight on the dirt soil. I have one on my list as well my plan is to make runners out of poles and put the platform on an old grain bin slab I have and build up from there. Your floor plan looks workable, how will you load that long? Doors etc. Mine will mirror the VA tech plans.
My plan for setting is:
1) Drill 8 holes with my 3pt 12" post hole auger.
2) Put about 4" of dry ready-mix in the bottom of each hole.
3) Set utility poles in each hole packing around them with dry ready-mix.
4) Use water level to top the poles maybe ~6" off the ground.
5) Build my floor framing off that.
Initially I was going to design to load and unload from the ends, but then decided I want access in the back. So I'll have two hinged doors and two lift off doors on the back, each about 6.25ft wide. I'll lift the center doors off with my TLB bucket. Not sure I can make them light enough for me to lift off by hand...
That sounds ok, not sure about the longevity of the posts set in concrete. Maybe better set on concrete so they can breathe.
Maybe sackcrete pads in the bottom for post to sit on, then fill coarse gravel around post. Then cut off with h20 level.
Quote from: Nebraska on June 14, 2021, 12:12:44 PM
That sounds ok, not sure about the longevity of the posts set in concrete. Maybe better set on concrete so they can breathe.
Maybe sackcrete pads in the bottom for post to sit on, then fill coarse gravel around post. Then cut off with h20 level.
I'm also considering just using patio stones to set this thing on, because I don't really have a permanent location for it as of yet. It needs to be close to a power source as I don't want to pay what it costs to use solar powered fans, and where I am planning to put it now for ease of access to power could be an eyesore once my house is built...
there have been some great builds, here, and guys that use them daily. you might add to your profile so we know more about your location and age and such. I assume you are not 88 y/o but I really do not know! :) @GeneWengert-WoodDoc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=20498) was one of the original developers.
If your poles are creosote or other treatment they will be nasty to mill and the dust is not good on your or your brothers health.
Nebraska Happy Birthday!
Quote from: samandothers on June 14, 2021, 07:08:07 PM
If your poles are creosote or other treatment they will be nasty to mill and the dust is not good on your or your brothers health.
Nebraska Happy Birthday!
We are aware yeah. However they are useful and we take precautions when handling.
Ok, finally got around to updating profile.
most of your lumber will have a vapor barrier. and many will use tar to seal it. so the issue may be if the cut poles will retain the rot resistance. the newer poles are better in terms of smell. use what you got and let us know how it goes. there have been courses on line, and lots of info here and webinars on the NHLA website (you have to register and add name with no spaces).
I would not use creosote lumber inside the kiln unless you covered it with some type of vapor barrier. For floor joists it should be ok.
You will want at least 26' inside dimensions in order to place 24' long lumber inside. Forking lumber that long into a kiln is challenging, because any corrections made at the steering wheel are magnified at the edges of the lumber stack.
I built some 20 footers a few years back and have hinged doors on them. I would try to avoid door panels that you have to lift off if possible, but if this is the only choice I would put a 6 footer in the middle and have 10' hinged doors on the sides.
You will need to build an extremely strong header above the doors so that it does not sag. I built mine by embedding a truss inside of glued and screwed plywood sides. I have not had any issues with sag thus far.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13296/Door_header_C.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1524863818)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13296/Three_solar_kilns_under_way.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1595961521)
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 15, 2021, 09:02:33 AMYou will need to build an extremely strong header above the doors so that it does not sag.
Thanks for posting, I was just working on the header in my design. Seems to have turned out similar to your pictures. I was going to do a W-Truss but the vent locations kind of messed up the load pathing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-06.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623767620)
I am thinking about double hinged doors. The inner doors are hinged to the outer doors. Open the inner doors first, they fold back and latch to the outer doors, then swing out the outer doors. Probably have guide wires with turnbuckles running to the fold back hinge location.
Right now the opening is 25ft, I don't think I want to go any wider. If I do want to load/unload with forks vs. manual, I'll just have to go with ~22.5ft boards instead of ~24.5ft.
might consider an overhang across the front to keep water off the doors, and can add guttering so you do not have a mud puddle in front. you can also change the size and shape of you vents to fit the header, and could even direct them to the soffit of the overhand. this is what I plan to do. the soffit frame can be triangulated to add stiffness to the bottom of the header so it does not try to twist on the bottom side. it will add some weight.
as an after thought, if you glue and screw plywood to the header, do you need all of the webbing with 2x?
Quote from: doc henderson on June 15, 2021, 11:28:01 AMas an after thought, if you glue and screw plywood to the header, do you need all of the webbing with 2x?
There is a trade-off between weight added to the bean from the truss members and what is needed to hold itself up without deflection. It could be overkill, would have to actually do some truss calculations. I've already modified the design from what I posted above but still more thinking I need to do on it.
I'm at 43 deg LAT, should I add 7 deg and go to 50 deg or go with 45 deg?
Trying to maximize the polycarbonate roofing, don't want to have to cut any.
most have gone with 45°. I assume you plan to hit it hard in the summer. If you are planning to run year round, you could try to optimize for winter when the heat is less, but air is also dry. I will tell what Dr. Wengert told after my 20th or so detailed question. "It is only a solar kiln". If you think to hard about angles, materials, cost ect., you may never build it. :)
one detail is how to finish the peak so it does not leak and does not get damaged. if you have an abundance of glaze surface to the load, you may have to cover part if doing a slow wood like oak, and fill it full. for beams, the large volume to surface area will slow the water loss, and may get very hot if not fully loaded.
It seems 55 degrees works out well for the 12ft Tuftex panels.
The glazing collection area is 266 sq-ft.
It's a bit taller than I wanted.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-08~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623861926)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-07~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623861926)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-09.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623861837)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-10.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623861837)
I have ~2000 bd-ft of 1x8x24 material shown in the kiln. It seems like from the VT design document they show a 9.5" air gap front and back, that's what I have shown in mine.
Also, why is adding images on these forums such a cluster? And how do I make them so they can be expanded to full size?
sounds like it will fastened to the ground. part of the size of the VT kiln, is so it can be picked up on forks and moved. you could also make it wider to keep the 45° angle if needed, and it would also be less tall.
Quote from: doc henderson on June 16, 2021, 01:43:51 PM
sounds like it will fastened to the ground. part of the size of the VT kiln, is so it can be picked up on forks and moved. you could also make it wider to keep the 45° angle if needed, and it would also be less tall.
I do want to use it in the winter, so the 55 degrees makes sense. I will cut the 12ft polycarbonate panels if need be, but was hoping to not have to. Wish they made 10 footers.
i would make the depth to accommodate the panels. and they think they a few sizes, but maybe not stocked. 8, 10, and 12 I think.
Quote from: etd66ss on June 16, 2021, 06:02:16 PM
I do want to use it in the winter, so the 55 degrees makes sense. I will cut the 12ft polycarbonate panels if need be, but was hoping to not have to. Wish they made 10 footers.
not sure which polycarb panels you're planning to use but be sure to make a double layer with sealed air space between if you use the corrugated ones. If you're using the twinwall you're all set. Just be sure to seal the ends as shown in the instructions.
Good luck with your build. I've really gotten a lot of good use from mine. It's a good tool.
Quote from: btulloh on June 16, 2021, 07:28:36 PM
Quote from: etd66ss on June 16, 2021, 06:02:16 PM
I do want to use it in the winter, so the 55 degrees makes sense. I will cut the 12ft polycarbonate panels if need be, but was hoping to not have to. Wish they made 10 footers.
not sure which polycarb panels you're planning to use but be sure to make a double layer with sealed air space between if you use the corrugated ones. If you're using the twinwall you're all set. Just be sure to seal the ends as shown in the instructions.
Good luck with your build. I've really gotten a lot of good use from mine. It's a good tool.
I planned to use Tuftex, like the VT document shows. However I did not intend to buy two layers. Why dual layers?
Lots of heat loss through the glazing. The airspace helps a great deal. It's highly recommended although I don't think it was mentioned in the VT document. Easier to do it initially than adding a second layer after the fact. Having the airspace for insulation will be even more important when the days get shorter and the ambient temp is lower in fall, winter, and spring.
Unlike other forums, forestry forum members have a gallery in which you can organize and store your pictures. This also houses the pictures permanently so that threads like this will always contain the photos used to aid the discussion.
I have pictures in my gallery that go back 15 years?? I have long lost access to my original photo storage and appreciate that these are here.
I built and operated a solar kiln for 12 years. It did an excellent job and even had a picture in one of Dr. Gene's articles in Sawmill & Woodlot years ago.
I've also been involved with two other builds. One guy did not use double glazing with disastrous results. During cool and cold weather moisture would condense on the single glazing. Than it would drip off onto the floor. If he had not fixed it the whole floor would have rotted out.
Second thought is lumber from treated poles does not last any longer than untreated lumber. It has the smell and color, but not enough preservative makes it through the outer few inches of the shell to do much good. I did not use treated lumber for my floor joists and did not have any problem, but I had it elevated off the ground maybe a foot.
Doubling up the glazing is not going to work for me, that would be over $1000 just for the glazing. I'm trying to make this thing out of sawn lumber and very limited purchased components.
It also seems like the Tuftex would be a nightmare to double layer with the way the joints overlap and how I'd have to make double sided closure strips with a jigsaw...
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Tuftex-Wood-Solid-Roof-Panel-Closure-Strip/3012462 (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Tuftex-Wood-Solid-Roof-Panel-Closure-Strip/3012462)
Is this 6mm twin layer stuff what I should use?
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Tuftex-Multi-Wall-6mm-Panel-Clear-4-ft-x-8-ft-Corrugated-Polycarbonate-Plastic-Roof-Panel/1000689436 (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Tuftex-Multi-Wall-6mm-Panel-Clear-4-ft-x-8-ft-Corrugated-Polycarbonate-Plastic-Roof-Panel/1000689436)
It doesn't seem as durable as the corrugated to me, and it only comes in 8ft long sheets, which means I'd have to have a roof overlap somewhere.
QuoteSecond thought is lumber from treated poles does not last any longer than untreated lumber. It has the smell and color, but not enough preservative makes it through the outer few inches of the shell to do much good. I did not use treated lumber for my floor joists and did not have any problem, but I had it elevated off the ground maybe a foot.
I'm using sawn creosote utility poles for the floor joists and rim boards.
EDIT: Found this place:
https://www.interstateplastics.com/Polycarbonate-Twinwall-Clear-Sheet-POLCE~~SW.php?kitoptionpk=197&src=adwordspla&thisisforcallrail=1&campaignid=225228743&adgroupid=37851262274&creative=153445283219&matchtype=&network=g&device=c&keyword=sheets-POLCESW-kits197&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5auGBhDEARIsAFyNm9Fa1Zo6h62CavAZdq8fHvPzeYlDnBP660EKndqbbi6vnU-NfIWsBa4aAjX7EALw_wcB (https://www.interstateplastics.com/Polycarbonate-Twinwall-Clear-Sheet-POLCE~~SW.php?kitoptionpk=197&src=adwordspla&thisisforcallrail=1&campaignid=225228743&adgroupid=37851262274&creative=153445283219&matchtype=&network=g&device=c&keyword=sheets-POLCESW-kits197&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5auGBhDEARIsAFyNm9Fa1Zo6h62CavAZdq8fHvPzeYlDnBP660EKndqbbi6vnU-NfIWsBa4aAjX7EALw_wcB)
Anyone order from Interstate Plastics before?
Does the thickness of the twin wall matter? I imagine the farther apart the twin walls are, the higher the R-value of insulation. They have 6mm, 8mm, 10mm & 16mm, they also have triple wall, but that's $320 for one sheet...
Well, I just built up a cart of what I would need for the glazing:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Polycarbonate.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623923273)
Might have to rethink this solar kiln build. Thought it was going to be cheaper than this...
The whole reason I wanted to build a kiln was to saw and dry ~1000 bd-ft of 1x8 Scots pine to turn into T&G for the ceiling of my house build. As well as 6x10x24ft & 6x6x12ft beams from the same wood. Maybe I'm dreaming that a kiln + me felling the trees and milling the rough boards & timbers would be cheaper. I still need them finished into T&G and re-sawn beams. Though I was thinking I can re-saw the beams and sand them.
the original design is only 14 feet long if I recall. you can build it with the corrugated stuff, but will not be as great in the winter compared to the summer. but I think as long as you get a differential of 20 or 30 degrees inside vs outside, it will dry faster than air drying. the big beams may do well just to be well covered and air dry down to 12 %.
I might be money ahead to just air dry the beams as suggested and have the general contractor acquire the T&G for the ceiling, though I really wanted the look of Scots pine for the T&G vs the bland white pine available.
-or-
I build a 16ft Kiln and not try to kiln dry the beams.
I have to mull it over I guess...
some will add sheet plastic as a first layer, with tuffex over the top to protect and develop an air layer to help insulate. You are suffering the same as me. want a cheap kiln, but also very efficient. you will either wind up with time and or money invested. too many short cuts, and it will not last and or will not work well. It does not need to pretty as much as air tight, and insulated. many have discussed adding supplemental heat, but the glazing is the weakest link. to do that, you need a separated solar panel and container. now you are talking more money in materials and insulation, with more complexity, fans electricity. you can do all kinds of foamboard, air dams and valves to stop air flow and insulate at night. so the greatest thing about this solar kiln, is keeping it simple. "it is just a solar kiln"! :D
or mill the boards, air dry with fans quickly to 12%, and find a kiln to dry on down, or put in place at 12% accounting for a bit of shrinkage. I struggled as well. there is info on a "simple cycle solar kiln" that is just a stack of wood and plastic, that might work for your beams. It also illustrates how containing a bit of heat can speed things up.
I have dried 2 inch slabs down to 7% using something like this. Elm out on the driveway.
Simple Solar Cycle Kilns at Timbergreen Farm (timbergreenforestry.com) (http://www.timbergreenforestry.com/Simple%20Solar%20Cycle%20Lumber%20Dry%20Kilns%20at%20Timbergreen%20Farm.html)
I left the bottom open to let water run out, used 16 dollar box fans in the middle of the stack and used a 14 dollar remote temp and humidity monitor. accurite i think.
I just bought a 40ft container for storage when moving out of my house. For the beams, I place them in the container with a heater and dehumidifier for a couple months? This would be a one time drying event, and I'd do it in the summer/fall before it gets cold as the container is not insulated.
I put my air dried lumber in there, and have a dehumidifier in there. after the wood is dry I only run it once a month or so. It has been suggested that you could paint the container black at least on the top and southern exposed walls. keep it stickered with some cheap fans running. it is fun to see the bucket daily and how much water literally is coming out of the wood. I keep a remote temp and humidity probe/monitor in there as well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/2AB7C2DB-BE94-4D79-BE16-A68D2F32DD06.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1547090126)
this is how I bundle logs, and sticker. the fans go in between and all get covered with plastic, and a plywood cover. A remote sensor can go into the stack as well. after airdry, these get moved to the 20 foot container, with fans and a dehumidifier.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/8BBD92AF-B426-4C42-8C67-939C4847B8A3.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1585844320)
Quote from: etd66ss on June 17, 2021, 05:49:32 AM
Well, I just built up a cart of what I would need for the glazing:
Might have to rethink this solar kiln build. Thought it was going to be cheaper than this...
The whole reason I wanted to build a kiln was to saw and dry ~1000 bd-ft of 1x8 Scots pine to turn into T&G for the ceiling of my house build. As well as 6x10x24ft & 6x6x12ft beams from the same wood. Maybe I'm dreaming that a kiln + me felling the trees and milling the rough boards & timbers would be cheaper. I still need them finished into T&G and re-sawn beams. Though I was thinking I can re-saw the beams and sand them.
Yeah that's the stuff. When I figured the cost and hassle of doubling the corrugated stuff I ended up with the twinwall. At the time I was able to get from Home Depot and had it shipped to the store for free. They don't seem to have 48" wide panels now, just 24", but Lowes has the 48".
I was trying to limit my costs for the kiln just like you and I was able to scrounge a lot of the framing and plywood, but the glazing and insulation costs were the big cost drivers. Mine was sized to dry 12' lumber, so that's way different from your length. I also redesigned it a bit so that I could use 8' lengths of the twinwall for my collector. This of course cut down the collector area and the size of the load, but for me that was an acceptable tradeoff. I ended up spending about $1600 on the build, which was pretty good and I could have knocked that down a little more if I tried. Of course your overall length will change that equation.
The one thing I can say is that the value added by building the kiln was such that I would be happier spending more than my original investment even though I only use my lumber for myself. Having the ability to produce KD lumber easily without any real energy costs gave me much more useful product and really changed my whole dynamic on finished lumber product.
Everyone has their own budgets and requirements to manage, so whether it's worth it for you is another question you'll have to figure out. Maybe you can get by with a shorter (less expensive) version, or maybe not. Or maybe it's worth it in the long/short/medium run to proceed with your current size. Your call. Anyway, good luck with your kiln project, and especially your ultimate projects.
Of my 4 solar kilns, three use double pane polycarb panels designed for green houses (greenhousemegastore.com), and one uses a single pane polycarb similar to what you're looking at from the Home Supply store.
I can effectively dry for 2 -3 months more a year with the double pane kilns versus the single pane. They have the advantage of having closed cell spray foam insulation too though.
About 10 years ago one of our FF members did an analysis of the effectiveness of drying with a double pane glass versus a single pane. It was quite informative in terms of the benefits of the better insulated panel.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=84982.msg1302695#msg1302695
I've had zero issues with moisture in mine.
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 17, 2021, 08:33:46 AM
Of my 4 solar kilns, three use double pane polycarb panels designed for green houses (greenhousemegastore.com), and one uses a single pane polycarb similar to what you're looking at from the Home Supply store.
I can effectively dry for 2 -3 months more a year with the double pane kilns versus the single pane. They have the advantage of having closed cell spray foam insulation too though.
About 10 years ago one of our FF members did an analysis of the effectiveness of drying with a double pane glass versus a single pane. It was quite informative in terms of the benefits of the better insulated panel.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=84982.msg1302695#msg1302695
I've had zero issues with moisture in mine.
Did you use the 6mm twinwall polycarbonate or thicker?
I think I would have condensation issues being up in the northeast right near the Great Lakes.
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 17, 2021, 08:33:46 AM
Of my 4 solar kilns, three use double pane polycarb panels designed for green houses (greenhousemegastore.com), and one uses a single pane polycarb similar to what you're looking at from the Home Supply store.
I can effectively dry for 2 -3 months more a year with the double pane kilns versus the single pane. They have the advantage of having closed cell spray foam insulation too though.
About 10 years ago one of our FF members did an analysis of the effectiveness of drying with a double pane glass versus a single pane. It was quite informative in terms of the benefits of the better insulated panel.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=84982.msg1302695#msg1302695
I've had zero issues with moisture in mine.
That might have been @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) that did the analysis. I know he went back and added a second layer to his first kiln. And he's in Alabama, home of copious sunshine and Auburn University.
Here is something a bit more reasonable, 8 X 16:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-13.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623945172)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-12.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623945171)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-11.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1623945171)
Lot less money for the glazing, and the doors aren't crazy.
There ya go. Your second one can be the long one. I did an overhang like that on mine. With that overhang you can use a ridge cap to cover the top edge of the glazing which helps keep the length down. A little weather protection it provides on the front helps in my opinion.
One question I have is, my design is exactly 16ft long, framing. The glazing panels come in 4ft widths, so 4 panels will be as wide as the framing. Once the siding is added it will protrude out from the glazing on the ends. Should I use drip edge and place it under the glazing so it flares out past the siding?
Basically, should the glazing overhang on the sides? I'd prefer to do something else there than loose collection area.
Tuftex recommends that the top of the rafters and cross braces are painted white for their corrugated panels, do the same for the extruded twinwall material?
As long as you deal with the water somehow (like the drip edge) you should be ok. Just like any roof, details are important and there's always more than one way to get the desired result.
I painted all my rafters and blocking black on top and no issues.
There is a thermal expansion factor on those twinwall panels, but they cover that in the installation docs. The joint strips allow for lateral movement and the special self-drilling fasteners they sell cut their own clearance hole. I just followed the instructions and have no problems.
They make a sealing strip for the bottom edge that has some drainage holes for condensation. I used aluminum tape and punched a hole every six inches. I'd use their strips next time, because the aluminum tape doesn't hold upin the sun and weather.
I think the black vs white color, has to do with heat absorption (obviously). if the tri-wall is up against a black 2 x 4 it really cannot heat the air, and will poss. heat up the plastic as the wood is slower to transmit heat. you could use metal for the cross bracing under the glaze, or could angle the edge to support the plastic but minimize the area under the glaze contacting the brace.
your drip edge could overhang a trim piece to keep the water off the exterior walls. sounds like you will have a nice build. each additional upgrade makes a percent of improved efficiency.
If you are building a really long kiln, you can stack boards for the header across the opening. I have built headers by starting with a 2x12, then putting another 2x12 on top of the first one, then rip a piece of plywood to put in the center of the header, and then add another pair of 2x12's to the other side, using construction adhesive between the ply and the lumber, and then nail or screw the whole header together. Used to use that type header before we could buy these laminated beams.
Double panels or glazing is a huge increase in efficiency.
Don't overthink a solar kiln, it's essentially a black minivan stuck in a mall parking lot in the summer. It's going to get hot. However, the hotter it gets, the more moist air you can vent so it can dry wood faster.
It's not going to do much of anything when there isn't any sun, so during cold dreary winters just becomes a lumber storage shed unless you put a dehumidifier inside.
Paint everything black, including the exterior, to have the entire building become a solar collector.
A couple of pictures of my kiln. It opened like a clam shell.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/P6120001.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1204656869)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/kiln1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1346896248)
For the second inside layer of glazing I used 6 mill plastic sheeting. It worked just fine. The problem was it only lasted for maybe two years than had to be replaced because it got brittle and ripped. In the picture it looks like the plastic was near the end of its life. I used the 6 mill because I was cheap. As good as the thing worked, I should have used something that lasted because it was a pita to replace the plastic.
Quote from: etd66ss on June 17, 2021, 08:46:12 AM
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 17, 2021, 08:33:46 AM
Of my 4 solar kilns, three use double pane polycarb panels designed for green houses (greenhousemegastore.com), and one uses a single pane polycarb similar to what you're looking at from the Home Supply store.
I can effectively dry for 2 -3 months more a year with the double pane kilns versus the single pane. They have the advantage of having closed cell spray foam insulation too though.
About 10 years ago one of our FF members did an analysis of the effectiveness of drying with a double pane glass versus a single pane. It was quite informative in terms of the benefits of the better insulated panel.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=84982.msg1302695#msg1302695
I've had zero issues with moisture in mine.
Did you use the 6mm twinwall polycarbonate or thicker?
I think I would have condensation issues being up in the northeast right near the Great Lakes.
I used 8mm. The ends of the panels are not exposed to the inside of the kiln, and have air exposure at top and bottom.
Quote from: btulloh on June 17, 2021, 08:50:06 AM
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 17, 2021, 08:33:46 AM
Of my 4 solar kilns, three use double pane polycarb panels designed for green houses (greenhousemegastore.com), and one uses a single pane polycarb similar to what you're looking at from the Home Supply store.
I can effectively dry for 2 -3 months more a year with the double pane kilns versus the single pane. They have the advantage of having closed cell spray foam insulation too though.
About 10 years ago one of our FF members did an analysis of the effectiveness of drying with a double pane glass versus a single pane. It was quite informative in terms of the benefits of the better insulated panel.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=84982.msg1302695#msg1302695
I've had zero issues with moisture in mine.
That might have been @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) that did the analysis. I know he went back and added a second layer to his first kiln. And he's in Alabama, home of copious sunshine and Auburn University.
It was a local engineer named Matt. He and Robert think along similar lines though.
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 18, 2021, 08:21:08 AM
Quote from: etd66ss on June 17, 2021, 08:46:12 AM
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 17, 2021, 08:33:46 AM
Of my 4 solar kilns, three use double pane polycarb panels designed for green houses (greenhousemegastore.com), and one uses a single pane polycarb similar to what you're looking at from the Home Supply store.
I can effectively dry for 2 -3 months more a year with the double pane kilns versus the single pane. They have the advantage of having closed cell spray foam insulation too though.
About 10 years ago one of our FF members did an analysis of the effectiveness of drying with a double pane glass versus a single pane. It was quite informative in terms of the benefits of the better insulated panel.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=84982.msg1302695#msg1302695
I've had zero issues with moisture in mine.
Did you use the 6mm twinwall polycarbonate or thicker?
I think I would have condensation issues being up in the northeast right near the Great Lakes.
I used 8mm. The ends of the panels are not exposed to the inside of the kiln, and have air exposure at top and bottom.
So you didn't use any of the u-channel trim or aluminum tape?
I used the twinwall panels from Menards, and bought the joining strips to put them together, then needed a bit more on the edges, so just put a joining strip on both edges. Used their glazing fasteners along each edge, after putting some clear silicone in the strip to make things hold, and be water tight. My kiln is exactly 16' framing, plus the boxing and siding, so it turned out to be about 16'-3" total. The joining strips added enough so I had about 1" overhang.
Quote from: etd66ss on June 18, 2021, 06:36:06 PM
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 18, 2021, 08:21:08 AM
Quote from: etd66ss on June 17, 2021, 08:46:12 AM
Quote from: scsmith42 on June 17, 2021, 08:33:46 AM
Of my 4 solar kilns, three use double pane polycarb panels designed for green houses (greenhousemegastore.com), and one uses a single pane polycarb similar to what you're looking at from the Home Supply store.
I can effectively dry for 2 -3 months more a year with the double pane kilns versus the single pane. They have the advantage of having closed cell spray foam insulation too though.
About 10 years ago one of our FF members did an analysis of the effectiveness of drying with a double pane glass versus a single pane. It was quite informative in terms of the benefits of the better insulated panel.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=84982.msg1302695#msg1302695
I've had zero issues with moisture in mine.
Did you use the 6mm twinwall polycarbonate or thicker?
I think I would have condensation issues being up in the northeast right near the Great Lakes.
I used 8mm. The ends of the panels are not exposed to the inside of the kiln, and have air exposure at top and bottom.
So you didn't use any of the u-channel trim or aluminum tape?
I used u channel in-between the sheets and flashing at the top. The bottom is open.
Quote from: etd66ss on June 14, 2021, 09:52:30 AM. I'll lift the center doors off with my TLB bucket.
This is what we did. We will not do our next kiln that way. It is difficult to get centered just right and with our sandy soil it is difficult to keep it on the same plane as the opening when trying to install the center panel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/IMG_0559.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1416869656)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/0E49A317-E33E-4CAD-A06C-6BD5CFEDB6F0.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1600989551)
Another thing we will do on our next kiln is similar to the way we did our hot box. We cut utility poles flat on two sides at 11" and built the structure on top of them. It is easier to hand load than the one pictured is on those occasions when we need to hand load.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/IMG_3339.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1559952777)
Another thing we will do on the next one is hinge the doors from the corners or load from the end on a cart. The drawback to the cart is that it would take up drying space.
My first design was to load from the end on rails/cart. But I eventually decided doors in the back would work best for me.
For those that used the twinwall glazing with the H profiles. Are the panels exactly 48" wide, meaning center to center spacing of H-Profiles is more than 48" if you don't trim the panels on the long edge? Seems like that would be a PITA for 24" rafter spacing...
Quote from: etd66ss on June 22, 2021, 05:32:27 AM
For those that used the twinwall glazing with the H profiles. Are the panels exactly 48" wide, meaning center to center spacing of H-Profiles is more than 48" if you don't trim the panels on the long edge? Seems like that would be a PITA for 24" rafter spacing...
I did not have any problems with installation. I think that the panels are 1/8" under to allow for the h profiles.
the strips that i think you are calling H strips on the Menards web page, seem to have a extra space in the center. might be able to get tech drawing to see. but it would grow a bit, if not compensated in the panel size. best to get the panels before the build maybe.
There are several good documents out there (google) about installation, not all from the same manufacturer, although it's the same product no matter who made it. I found it very useful to read their docs. The recommended fastening pattern is much different than what I would have expected. Plus these docs have a lot of technical info that's good to know before hand. I'm going to try and attach one or all of them, but some are pretty big files and I think there's a size limit of attachments.
One very important thing is the recommended spacing for the blocking or horizontal support members. They recommend 24" max, although mine is closer to 30" and no issues (with the steeper angle, it's less of a problem. It's also important to allow room for thermal expansion in the panels. It doesn't take a lot, but it will keep them from buckling. This is accomplished by using their fasteners, which self-drill the correct clearance at the fastener location. Also not trapping the edges and leaving a slight gap between the panel edge and the h-strip center strip. It really comes down to the details in their docs. Oddly enough, I followed their recommendations (which is against my nature ;D ) and everything works fine.
Quote from: btulloh on June 22, 2021, 09:18:12 AM
There are several good documents out there (google) about installation, not all from the same manufacturer, although it's the same product no matter who made it. I found it very useful to read their docs. The recommended fastening pattern is much different than what I would have expected. Plus these docs have a lot of technical info that's good to know before hand. I'm going to try and attach one or all of them, but some are pretty big files and I think there's a size limit of attachments.
One very important thing is the recommended spacing for the blocking or horizontal support members. They recommend 24" max, although mine is closer to 30" and no issues (with the steeper angle, it's less of a problem. It's also important to allow room for thermal expansion in the panels. It doesn't take a lot, but it will keep them from buckling. This is accomplished by using their fasteners, which self-drill the correct clearance at the fastener location. Also not trapping the edges and leaving a slight gap between the panel edge and the h-strip center strip. It really comes down to the details in their docs. Oddly enough, I followed their recommendations (which is against my nature ;D ) and everything works fine.
I've read all of those, but can't seem to find any technical drawings showing the actual size. To use the H-Profile extrusion, they must be something like ~47.25" wide and not actual 48".
Unfortunately the closest Menards to me is two states over, they seem to have the best selection. Lowes & "Chinesium" Depot have a scattershot selection and nothing 12ft long from what I can see. I'll be ordering my glazing online I guess.
Also, did you use the bubble washers or just rely on the gasket on the screws? I have yet to see any documentation that states the bubble washers must be used.
One more thing to keep in mind - figure out where your fan board will be located and install blocking at that location. It's important to block the space above so the air flow doesn't short circuit. The only path for air flow between the hot side and the cold side should be through the lumber stack. There'll be plenty of leaks around the ends of stacks because it's hard to seal them perfectly, but the better the seal, the more efficient the air flow through the stack. Leaks all the air to go around the stack instead of through it.
It's easy to miss this detail, and some of us (me for instance) had to block the gap above the fan board after we were essentially finished, and this was more fiddly than doing it initially.
I believe the dimensional detail you're looking for is one of the docs I attached. I do believe the width is exactly 48". It's not essential that the edges meet exactly in the middle of the rafter. fasteners are not used there, except on the outside edges.
Quote from: btulloh on June 22, 2021, 09:30:44 AM
I believe the dimensional detail you're looking for is one of the docs I attached. I do believe the width is exactly 48". It's not essential that the edges meet exactly in the middle of the rafter. fasteners are not used there, except on the outside edges.
https://www.interstateplastics.com/Polycarbonate-Clear-Extruded-Divide-H-Channel-202-Profile-POLCEXD00315x14400.php (https://www.interstateplastics.com/Polycarbonate-Clear-Extruded-Divide-H-Channel-202-Profile-POLCEXD00315x14400.php)
I guess what I am getting at is the H-Profile has a center extrusion, of unknown width because that detail drawing doesn't show the dimension. One or two rafters over and you no longer have a rafter to screw into if the panels are 48" actual...
I'm going to go to my local Lowes & Home Depot and see if I can measure what they have.
I'll have to order all the glazing before I start framing.
Having the glazing on hand will increase the comfort level for sure.
I have no fasteners installed at junction of the sheets and h strip per the recommended pattern, so the rafters don't have to fall exactly at the seems (although mine do). I did a lot of over-analysis before hand that proved to be unnecessary, but unavoidable in my case. My nature. I think scsmith said something about that, like don't sweat the details. For me that's easier said than done, but next time I build one I'll be a bit more relaxed. Your plan to get the glazing first should improve your comfort level. I think your kiln is going to turn out fine.
Quote from: btulloh on June 22, 2021, 10:00:20 AM
Having the glazing on hand will increase the comfort level for sure.
I have no fasteners installed at junction of the sheets and h strip per the recommended pattern, so the rafters don't have to fall exactly at the seems (although mine do). I did a lot of over-analysis before hand that proved to be unnecessary, but unavoidable in my case. My nature. I think scsmith said something about that, like don't sweat the details. For me that's easier said than done, but next time I build one I'll be a bit more relaxed. Your plan to get the glazing first should improve your comfort level. I think your kiln is going to turn out fine.
I design everything in CAD before I cut anything, so always sweat the details. It's what I do for a living, hard to break the habit. I never start building and figure it out as I go, not in my nature.
These days, when designing mechanical systems, you can pretty much download 3D models of all the aftermarket parts used in a design (models can't always be trusted though). However, in the construction industry that's not always the case. Materials like this glazing are a crapshoot on whether or not you can actually find even 2D technical information needed to precisely model them in 3D. In some aspects, Architecture/Design seems a bit more "free" than Mechanical Engineering.
Sounds like you and I have a similar nature. CAD design pays off and makes the actual building process a lot smoother and the results more predictable.
Selecting fans became a big process for me, converting cfm air flow to fpm based on area and such. I had to analyze the effect of static pressure on cfm ratings to make me happy with my fan choices. Others just bought cheap box fans and installed them and seemed to do ok. I found the current crop of cheap box fans to have blade designs that caused the cfm rating to drop to almost nothing when subjected to the static pressure in the kiln application. Maybe over analysis but my measured air flow throw the stacks can achieve the recommended fpm for the various species. I guess I don't like to just wing it, but ... we all have our comfort zone.
Quote from: btulloh on June 22, 2021, 11:30:05 AM
Sounds like you and I have a similar nature. CAD design pays off and makes the actual building process a lot smoother and the results more predictable.
Selecting fans became a big process for me, converting cfm air flow to fpm based on area and such. I had to analyze the effect of static pressure on cfm ratings to make me happy with my fan choices. Others just bought cheap box fans and installed them and seemed to do ok. I found the current crop of cheap box fans to have blade designs that caused the cfm rating to drop to almost nothing when subjected to the static pressure in the kiln application. Maybe over analysis but my measured air flow throw the stacks can achieve the recommended fpm for the various species. I guess I don't like to just wing it, but ... we all have our comfort zone.
That was going to be the next thing I looked at, the CFM requirements.
Any progress on the kiln plan?
Quote from: btulloh on July 03, 2021, 06:28:25 PM
Any progress on the kiln plan?
Yes, but I am spending more time outside these days than sitting in front of the PC designing. I have logged about 30 dead standing and fallen Norway Spruce. Bartering with my brother who has a circular mill, trading wood for his deck for his time to mill up what I need for the kiln.
Just finished the logging today actually, so hope to get everything sawn by the end of the month. Once I know what lumber I have I can tweak my design to suit.
I started milling up the creosote poles for the kiln deck & subfloor.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0904211649.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1630881970)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0902211402.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1630881845)
Logged the last of the spruce I need to mill the lumber for the rest of the Kiln.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0905211305.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1630881947)
Hope to start building soon. Leaning towards a 24ft long kiln so I can dry the 22ft long decorative Scotts Pine beams for my house.
Finished the deck framing today. Took longer than I thought to get it all level & square.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0918210959.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632009114)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0918211153.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632009173)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0918211113.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632009111)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0918211915b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632009135)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0918211914a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632009245)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0918211917.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632009267)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0918211915.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632009130)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0918211915a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1632009129)
And yes, I know the ground slope will make it difficult to load/unload with forks, but this is just a temporary location near my electrical service for drying lumber/beams for my house. I'll load/unload by hand for now.
Some more progress pictures. Progress is slow as I have to wait for the lumber I need to come off the mill, and that only happens when my brother has time to mill stuff...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0925211534a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633255464)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0926211230.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633255500)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1002211221a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633255523)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1002211432.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633255551)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1002211519a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633255574)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1002211652.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633255600)
We are currently building a solar Kiln based off the Virginia Tech First Gen with a few twists of our own for moisture monitoring and fan control. Also doubled up the floor joists. 2x8 construction for the floor. We plan on building a bigger one next but using this as a test.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59153/9BEA31F9-EA7E-4209-9563-A7C5609F6BE5.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1633300272)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59153/D23C011B-CA1B-44CE-A3D0-DC09F54E0225.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1633300276)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59153/62F434F5-CA08-4B4B-B323-584F97282309.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1633300275)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59153/44871BA6-E3CD-41B8-9B02-C1FABFAA4925.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1633300277)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59153/27026EB1-E173-4E3D-9446-9BA52664E0EE.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1633300278)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59153/44871BA6-E3CD-41B8-9B02-C1FABFAA4925.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1633300277)
what was the overall dimension and why did you double up the floor joists? looks great.
Agree with Doc. That looks good ... makes me want one for my own.
I finally finished the deck, can start framing soon. Having to rip all my lumber on a contractors table saw to get it straight enough to use...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1008211814.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633736343)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1008211814b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633736366)
Started on the framing. Sure looks bigger in person than it did on my computer screen...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1009211111.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633897719)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1009211114.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633897740)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1009211050.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633897759)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1010211122.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633897787)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1010211433.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633897810)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1010211550a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633897832)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1010211601.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1633897851)
A bit more progress, was fighting some gloomy weather until today.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1016211451.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634675346)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1016211451b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634675367)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1019211100.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634675388)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1019211147.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634675409)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1019211451.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634675434)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1019211529.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634675458)
Looks good.
Just about finished with the framing:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1023211631.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635042380)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1023211632.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635042403)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1023211632a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635042421)
I'm trying to get back to this project.
I want to buy the glazing, but a bit confused. The Virginia Tech build uses Tuftex polycarbonate. Home Depot has SunTuf, which looks like the same material: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Suntuf-26-in-x-12-ft-Polycarbonate-Roofing-Panel-in-Clear-101699/100049922 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Suntuf-26-in-x-12-ft-Polycarbonate-Roofing-Panel-in-Clear-101699/100049922)
However, I thought I read on these forums that dual wall polycarbonate is needed for moisture? Is that only when used in the winter?
I can't source the dual wall polycarbonate locally, and it's much more expensive than the single wall corrugated.
Does anyone have a good method for doubling up and sealing the corrugated glazing?
you could use 6 mil plastic sheeting on the inside. the more you spend like for uv protected greenhouse plastic the longer it will last. it is for a thermal barrier airspace to keep in the heat. the dual wall stuff is more expensive, and can be had at Menards, ect. after two layers, there is diminishing returns, all well documented. read the solar kiln paper, and watch the kiln stuff on the NHLA website by Dr. Gene Wengert.
I used the polycarbonate on the outside and on the inside used 6 mil plastic. UV would make the 6 mill brittle and the air from the fan would crack it. I think I usually got about 3 years from the 6 mil before have to replace it. I had this kiln in service for I suppose 12 years or so and it dried 3 or sometimes 4 loads a year.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/kiln.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1346896234)
You can get a glimpse of the 6 mil lining the inside here.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/kiln1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1346896248)
Will any twinwall work, or is thicker better? I am looking at the 6mm twinwall at ePlastics website (never mind, the shipping alone is almost $700). Menards is not in my area.
A local Lowes has the 6mm twin wall, but only 8 ft lengths. I have a 50 deg roof due to being up north. This made the panels required 12 ft long, however, that is about 288 sq-ft of solar collector area. Which is ~2800 board feet. I calculate I can load about 1800 board feet into the kiln. So I'm wondering if I can go with the 8 ft glazing even though it doesn't cover the entire roof?
I think it was 1 square foot glazing per 10 board feet to dry. but less for hard wood like oak, and more for soft wood. depends on what you will be drying. I think the 6 mm is the air space.
Quote from: doc henderson on June 17, 2022, 08:59:49 PM
I think it was 1 square foot glazing per 10 board feet to dry. but less for hard wood like oak, and more for soft wood. depends on what you will be drying. I think the 6 mm is the air space.
Yes, 6mm is the air gap, but more gap means more insulation. So was wondering if 6mm is sufficient.
As far as the ratio, yes, it's 10:1 board feet to collection area for 1" thick "lumber". I would be drying primarily spruce & pine for my house build, and then later get into cherry & oak.
It seems the 8ft panels are my only affordable option, so my collection area drops from 288 sq-ft down to 192 sq-ft.
I'm leery of the corrugated + plastic sheet idea in my climate. Seems like I could have moisture issues.
Lowes and HD will let you order it and PU for free unless it has changed recently.
Quote from: doc henderson on June 17, 2022, 09:36:31 PM
Lowes and HD will let you order it and PU for free unless it has changed recently.
Yeah, they still don't sell 12 footers. Lowes has the 8 footers in stock, HD only has the corrugated.
I'm taking a look at my design to see if 8ft twinwall will work.
I looked several years ago, and you could, but now with supply issues, maybe not.
There are joining strips available that will work and allow you to use 8' + 4' to make your 12'.
I got mine from HD, free ship to store making the price very reasonable. 6mm is fine.
Quote from: btulloh on June 18, 2022, 09:04:01 AM
There are joining strips available that will work and allow you to use 8' + 4' to make your 12'.
I got mine from HD, free ship to store making the price very reasonable. 6mm is fine.
The H profiles? I figured water would run under the profile if I used that to join seams cross-wise along the roof. I thought those were only to be used along the roof pitch to join.
I got some free used steel:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0618221019.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655562040)
The steel siding wouldn't hold in moisture correct?
There are some installation docs available for download that show recommended practices for all situations. Very worthwhile to check out.
there is an e-plastics that has them, but shipping may get you. If you plan to dry some soft wood, then I think you want the largest glazing surface you can get.
Quote from: doc henderson on June 18, 2022, 01:28:03 PM
there is an e-plastics that has them, but shipping may get you. If you plan to dry some soft wood, then I think you want the largest glazing surface you can get.
Yeah, I looked at two places online, over $600 shipping for both, not gonna happen.
Quote from: btulloh on June 18, 2022, 01:09:27 PM
There are some installation docs available for download that show recommended practices for all situations. Very worthwhile to check out.
OK, so I don't see the instructions showing end to end joining to make a 12ft run out of a 8ft + 4ft. In fact the instructions specifically state the H-profiles are for side to side joining. I assume the panels will leak if joined end to end.
https://us.onduline.com/sites/onduline_us/files/2021-04/Tuftex%20Multiwall%20Installation%20Guide_0.pdf (https://us.onduline.com/sites/onduline_us/files/2021-04/Tuftex%20Multiwall%20Installation%20Guide_0.pdf)
And the Suntuf instructions state that the aluminum H-profiles are needed outdoors because the plastic H-profiles may leak:
https://polycarbonate.com.au/suntuf-sunlite-twinwall-installation-guide-and-tips/ (https://polycarbonate.com.au/suntuf-sunlite-twinwall-installation-guide-and-tips/)
I assume on the Kilns since the roof is so steep the plastic H-profiles work ok as the water runs down the roof so fast it doesn't have much of a chance to seep in between the H-profile and the twinwall panel?
The instructions also state that 100% silicone can be used, but that it expands at a different rate than the polycarbonate, which can cause leaks.
Quote from: doc henderson on June 17, 2022, 09:36:31 PM
Lowes and HD will let you order it and PU for free unless it has changed recently.
No longer free, Lowes is charging $79 delivery fee (to the store and I still pick up) for both the panels and the H-profiles, so $158 extra right there. Only 8 footers, they don't offer anything longer, likely due to the insane shipping costs these days.
God this economy sucks.
I just caught up on this thread. Would you be able build a separate solar collector infront of /alongside of the kiln you could make up the difference in collector area that way with a little insulated duct to bring the heat in.
Quote from: Nebraska on June 20, 2022, 09:41:04 AM
I just caught up on this thread. Would you be able build a separate solar collector infront of /alongside of the kiln you could make up the difference in collector area that way with a little insulated duct to bring the heat in.
I think what I am going to do is just go with 8ft x 24 ft of collector as opposed to my original design 12ft x 24ft. A larger portion of the roof will not be glazing as I intended, but I can't justify $2000 in glazing due to a crating fee of $250, and shipping charges of $650. When I can go to a local Lowes and get everything much cheaper.
To me, from reading everything I can about twinwall/multiwall, they are not designed to be butted end to end. That's why they are extruded up to 24ft long...
Ultimately I suppose it means I can't dry as many board feet at one time as I intended. Unless the volume of air inside the kiln plays a larger role in drying than I am understanding...
That's pretty much what I did. Sized down a bit so I could use the 8' panels. That makes my ideal capacity 800 bd ft insteadof 1k bf. If you put 1k bf in it just takes a little longer. For me, the smaller loads are not an issue and using the 8' panels saved a lot of money and/or complexity.
Quote from: btulloh on June 20, 2022, 10:22:08 AM
That's pretty much what I did. Sized down a bit so I could use the 8' panels. That makes my ideal capacity 800 bd ft insteadof 1k bf. If you put 1k bf in it just takes a little longer. For me, the smaller loads are not an issue and using the 8' panels saved a lot of money and/or complexity.
I guess I should have made this decision before I finished the deck & framing:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1023211631.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635042380)
Too late now. Unless there is an air volume issue this is the way I intend to go. I suppose I will have to now insulate the portion of the roof that won't be glazing.
No problem on the air volume. I suppose if your fill in roof is black you'll get some benefit and no need to insulate. Main thing is to get your vents and fans right so air circulation through the stack is correct.
Quote from: btulloh on June 20, 2022, 10:53:43 AM
No problem on the air volume. I suppose if your fill in roof is black you'll get some benefit and no need to insulate. Main thing is to get your vents and fans right so air circulation through the stack is correct.
I intend to roof the non-glazed portions with black asphalt shingles.
Looks good!
Menards has poly-carb panels up to 24 feet long, if you have those.
Quote from: doc henderson on June 21, 2022, 09:02:01 PM
Menards has poly-carb panels up to 24 feet long, if you have those.
I bought 8 ft panels from Lowes yesterday, so stuck with those.
The closest Menards to my location is about 250 miles and the panels are a special order.
I'll just have to make due with what I have...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Solar-Kiln-Floor-Framing-14.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1655904711)
Not an ideal solar collector, but such is life.
I didn't want to have to buy plywood, but my sawmill is not up and running yet (waiting for some utility poles to be sawn up by another mill to use for my sawmill bed) so can't mill boards for the sheathing/siding.
This thing is costing me way more than I wanted.
I worked on the framing a bit more this past weekend.
Over the winter/spring, the boards I used for the decking (mainly sawn 2x8 white pine which was air dried for about 1 year) swelled and snapped many of the decking screws I used to fasten them down. So the south wall of the kiln was bowed out nearly 2" from the swelling. I had to fix that by taking out all the nails on the south wall, clamping back into place and this time I used SPAX screws on the sill plate. I trimmed the decking that was sticking out with a chainsaw as that is all that I could get in there. It looks ugly but that cut will be covered up anyways. I tried to use my sawsall but that didn't work well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0626221509a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656324791)
Since I could only buy 8ft Tuftex locally, and my design was to use 12ft, I decided to strengthen up the framing at the ridge of the roof. Over the winter/spring, the "naked" roof rafters sagged and twisted in the weather. Some of them sagging 2". This extra framing in the roof allowed me to support the rafters better, to the point they only sag about 3/4" in the center of the roof now. This is the first time using air dried framing lumber for a roof of any kind, I should have gone with 2x6 rafters. I followed the VA Tech plans, but my kiln is about twice the size. 2x4 rafters just are not enough if you want to keep the roof perfectly flat. Too late now, kiln should still work as long as it does not develop leaks in the roof due to a slightly concave roof. At a 50 angle, I think it should be ok in terms of rain/snow.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0626221503.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656325081)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0626221502a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656325142)
The north wall door opening is 8ft tall and 23-1/2ft wide. Prior to this extra framing, the door opening sagged in the middle about 1". I supported both the roof and this door opening while I framed, when I removed all the bracing after framing, the door opening now only sags about 1/4". It will sag more when I get all the siding and roofing installed, but I can live with the amount of deflection I am now seeing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0626221503b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656325431)
One negative of adding the framing is it bowed the 23-1/2ft door opening outward in the middle about 1/4". The roof rafter extra supports are pushing that part of the north wall out a bit. But, I guess I will still be able to get doors to function. I'd rather have this than the roof sagging 1"+.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0626221503a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656325586)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0626221510.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656325609)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/0626221502.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1656325633)
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Is there any reason why the whole building can't be covered with a sheet of plastic or tarp to keep the rain off? Just pull it off to the side while working on the structure.
.
Quote from: Sod saw on June 27, 2022, 08:07:21 AM
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Is there any reason why the whole building can't be covered with a sheet of plastic or tarp to keep the rain off? Just pull it off to the side while working on the structure.
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I probably should have covered it over the winter. Hope to have it done this summer so don't plan on buying any tarp.
I expected to get farther along on it last year than I did...
The non-kiln dried lumber I am using moved around a lot more than I thought it would.
Started on the siding:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0002.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1656888007)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0003.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1656888044)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0001~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1656888088)
I am wrapping the steel around the corners as I have no J-channel, F-channel, Z-channel etc:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0007~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1656888175)
It's annoying that this steel has a bunch of holes in it as well as tar all over it. Came off an old leaking roof. Oh well, it was free. I'll try to use a heat gun to remove the tar, then quickly sand all the steel before priming & painting. Lot of extra work but this saved me about $500 in plywood.
Metal siding and trimming out the door opening is done. Probably do the non-glazing portion of the roof next. Will have to buy plywood for that as I am all out of sawn stock and my sawmill is not up and running yet, still building the bed for it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0001~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1657145939)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0002~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1657145961)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0003~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1657145980)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0004.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1657145997)
Even though I framed in for vents on the north wall, I ended up covering them with the metal siding to make the 23-1/2 ft span header as stiff as possible. Looks like I will be venting through the soffit.
The soffit is 12ft above grade. I'd like to use some kind of round vents that I can turn 180 degrees full open etc, via an extension tool from the ground. Anyone ever see any vents like that?
Something like this, but with a hex head in the center so I can reach up with a socket on a long tubular extension to rotate the vent.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/Butterfly-Vent.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1657146475)
How about big pvc ball valves hung upside down you could turn them with a forked metal piece ( street wrench)
like you would use if they were an underground water shut off. Then you could vary the air flow if you want. Hose clamp some screen over it to keep out the bugs...
Quote from: Nebraska on July 06, 2022, 09:56:47 PM
How about big pvc ball valves hung upside down you could turn them with a forked metal piece ( street wrench)
like you would use if they were an underground water shut off. Then you could vary the air flow if you want. Hose clamp some screen over it to keep out the bugs...
That's a good idea, thanks.
Edit:
Ok, the large PVC ball valves are crazy expensive.
I have rectangular vents in my solar kiln, I open and close them with a stick. Once they are right, they pretty much never have to be moved again, until the seasons change.
Do I need to spray foam at all between the metal siding and the framing before I install fiberglass insulation or is that overkill?
I think you have to be careful not to trap the fiberglass between two "vapor barriers". so, a vapor barrier on the inside and leave the fiber glass on the outside so it can breathe and not trap moisture.
I am almost ready to install the glazing. Do I need to use the 1" bubble washers between the screws and the plastic? Lowes didn't have those, and I didn't order any as the instructions made it seem like they were optional.
Was off all last week, made some decent progress on the kiln:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0002~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1657487559)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0003~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1657487590)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0005.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1657487621)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0008~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1657487650)
I am a little late to this party. I usually watch for these builds to show up much closer.
For the roof glazing why not just overlap it like you would with shingles?
Quote from: Crusarius on July 10, 2022, 08:09:43 PM
I am a little late to this party. I usually watch for these builds to show up much closer.
For the roof glazing why not just overlap it like you would with shingles?
I mulled that over, as well as butting them with H-channel. Decided to just go with 8ft of glazing. After I read the instructions for the twinwall, they don't recommend silicone for sealing due to movement via thermal expansion. I figured I would use the twinwall as per the instructions. I don't want to risk leaks. The kiln will dry about 1000 bd-ft less than the original design.
Another reason was the 24 ft long structure seemed unstable to me. Putting the plywood on the roof stiffened things quite a bit. I think it would have been too flimsy with a full glazed roof. I scaled up the VA tech design but still used 2x4 rafters and studs. I probably should have used 2x6's, at least for the rafters anyways.
Is this the twin wall stuff you were talking about? If so, when it says 49.5 inches, is that the vertical, and then the width is 99"?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/Twin_Wall1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1658061253)
depends. :) the width is across the channels and length is along the channel. they are usually oriented top to bottom.
Well I'm interested to see how the panels are installed. I read the instructions:
https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/content/files/pdf/Multi_Install.pdf
I understand the point fastening, but am not clear about joining panels together, and how the panels join at the sides and bottoms of kiln so water doesn't get in.
@etd66ss (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=56578) are you using the 8mm twin wall panels?https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/coverings/plastic-sheets/polycarbonate-sheets/easy-ship-2-ft-wide-twinwall-polycarbonate?returnurl=%2fcoverings%2fplastic-sheets%2fpolycarbonate-sheets%2f
Quote from: Brad_bb on July 17, 2022, 08:34:27 AM
Is this the twin wall stuff you were talking about? If so, when it says 49.5 inches, is that the vertical, and then the width is 99"?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/Twin_Wall1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1658061253)
I bought the 6mm twinwall Polygal Tuftex from Lowes, it measures exactly 48 x 96. Which is kind of a pain, because I framed the roof 24" on centers. When using the H-profile to join, it ads 1/2". So I need to trim every panel along its length in order for the rafters to work out at the center of each H-profile. I didn't want to buy the glazing first because I wanted to see how the kiln build went before I spent that much money, but I should have. I would have framed the rafters differently so I didn't have to trim each peice.
Quote from: Brad_bb on July 17, 2022, 02:08:00 PM
Well I'm interested to see how the panels are installed. I read the instructions:
https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/content/files/pdf/Multi_Install.pdf
I understand the point fastening, but am not clear about joining panels together, and how the panels join at the sides and bottoms of kiln so water doesn't get in.
@etd66ss (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=56578) are you using the 8mm twin wall panels?https://www.greenhousemegastore.com/coverings/plastic-sheets/polycarbonate-sheets/easy-ship-2-ft-wide-twinwall-polycarbonate?returnurl=%2fcoverings%2fplastic-sheets%2fpolycarbonate-sheets%2f
From everything I have read, you do not join at the ends, only sides, and the sides run down the roof, not across. If you need 16ft lengths for the roof for example, that's what you need to order. I decided against 12ft because it was $3000 for the glazing 12ft long due to shipping being outrageous. The 8ft long was $560 for 6 pieces at a local Lowes to get me my 24ft wide kiln glazing. I had to change my design on the fly but I wasn't going to spend $3000.
Cleaned all the roofing tar off the second hand steel, scuffed it up and cleaned with acetone. Filled all the old holes with pop rivets and got two coats of KILZ primer on the steel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0001~2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1658693784)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0002~3.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1658693829)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0003~2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1658693789)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0004~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1658693791)
I don't think I want to paint the whole thing black.
Good progress. Thanks for the update.
I painted the outside dark green. Absorbs heat pretty well but more attractive than black.
Quote from: btulloh on July 24, 2022, 04:24:06 PM
Good progress. Thanks for the update.
I painted the outside dark green. Absorbs heat pretty well but more attractive than black.
So with the walls insulated, I still want to paint the outside a color that absorbs heat?
Not essential but does add some heat to the situation. Depends on what you want it to look like too. I liked the green because it made the kiln blend in with the landscape.
It is looking very good. remember that insulation slows the movement of heat. so hotter outside means less of a gradient so less heat movement to the outside, so higher internal temps or more water evaporation. I say or because if the heat is used to change water from liquid to gas, there is no increase in temp as the energy is used to do the "work" of the phase change.
I went with a dark green:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0005~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1659301726)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0004~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1659301723)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0003~3.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1659301721)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0002~4.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1659301717)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0001~3.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1659301716)
does that green have a specific name, it is very classy with the black trim.
Quote from: doc henderson on August 01, 2022, 06:14:30 PM
does that green have a specific name, it is very classy with the black trim.
I just went to Home Depot and got the cheapest exterior satin base they had, Gliden. Color is a Behr paint chip called North woods.
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) amazing lumber stacks never cease to amaze me. Talk about precision. I'll get there one day.
Any update on the build @etd66ss (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=56578) ?
Quote from: VB-Milling on September 14, 2022, 09:00:47 AM
Any update on the build @etd66ss (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=56578) ?
Yeah, I have some new pics, will post when I get a chance.
Was busy fixing up and selling my house, hoping to build this year, doubt the solar kiln will be ready to aid in the construction of my new home.
This is where the project is:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0002~5.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675935889)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0006.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675935896)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0015.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675935909)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0017.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675935913)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0026~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675935947)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0021~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675936126)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0029.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675936152)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0031.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675936186)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0030.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675936216)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/DSC_0032.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675936266)
Still have to design the double folding doors I want to make, put in the soffit with vents. I also bought some circular vent louver covers for the interior that will cover those holes in the ceiling, hopefully to keep out wasps etc.
Also still need to design and build the wall to house the attic fans.
And I also might have to move this thing, as I have now decided that my Barndominum build will be in the area where the kiln now sits... I calculate it already weighs about 4500 lbs.
It is amazing what you can do with some light rigging moving some heavy stuff. I have loaded and unloaded my vertical steel mill onto and off of my trailer a few times with nothing more than ratchet straps rollers and a pry bar. Never had any help to do it either.
What did you use for the translucent material? How thick?
Quote from: Crusarius on February 09, 2023, 10:12:56 AM
It is amazing what you can do with some light rigging moving some heavy stuff. I have loaded and unloaded my vertical steel mill onto and off of my trailer a few times with nothing more than ratchet straps rollers and a pry bar. Never had any help to do it either.
What did you use for the translucent material? How thick?
I only had one option local to me for the glazing: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Tuftex-Multi-Wall-6mm-Panel-Clear-4-ft-x-8-ft-Corrugated-Polycarbonate-Plastic-Roof-Panel/1000689436 (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Tuftex-Multi-Wall-6mm-Panel-Clear-4-ft-x-8-ft-Corrugated-Polycarbonate-Plastic-Roof-Panel/1000689436)
Shipping in 12ft lengths was cost-prohibitive hence the reason my kiln has a partial asphalt shingle roof. I had planned on 12ft glazing when I designed the kiln but COVID killed any chance I could afford the 12ft glazing, so had to augment my design to be able to afford the glazing...
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Your kiln looks good. They are a lot of work, more than folks might imagine while just looking at a completed operating one.
Is there any reason that you could not hang a sheet of clear or black plastic over the opening where the double doors are intended to go to keep some of the heat in? It may be somewhat usable to dry some of your wood for the house build. Not perfect, but usable. Faster than straight air drying.
Plastic may also help keep rain off the floor.
I have enjoyed your photos, etc.
I moved a 10,000 lb boat, after a rebuild, with short pieces of 3 inch pipe, a pry bar and come-along. Jacking and moving houses are shown on U-tube. Those houses are much bigger than your kiln. The principals are the same. You have my "permission" to copy their ideas.
have fun with it.
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I found some more pictures on my phone:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1011221818b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675968860)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1020220943a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675968885)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1020220943b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675968887)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1020220943c.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675968892)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1020220943d.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675968893)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1011221822.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675968867)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/1011221821.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675968868)
Last couple pictures shows the vents & louvers I plan to use for airflow via the soffit. I don't plan to buy anything for the lower vents. I will just make sliders in my doors like most solar kilns have.
One adjustable butterfly vent on the outside of the kiln for every 2 louvers on the inside.
I had to move my kiln as I decided I want to build my Barndominium in that location:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230701_094904.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688253339)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230701_094929.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688253338)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230701_095223.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688253356)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230701_095101.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688253415)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230701_114400.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688253358)
I bet it likes the spot down by the pond better. A little closer and you could add a deck to fish off of, if it weren't for the loading and unloading thing. :) looks very good.
It looks like you had enough machine for the job👍😁
Yeah, too much of a machine is usually just about right... smiley_thumbsup
Fully relocated/setup & leveled:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230704_095008.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688850260)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230704_095012.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688850307)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230704_100634.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688850350)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230705_081909.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688850393)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230705_113122.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688850430)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66578/20230705_113142.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1688850477)
Now I just have to finish building it...