What is you opinion about WDE kiln ?

Den Socling · June 04, 2004, 07:24:36 PM

Read page 5 of 'I got me one".

old3dogg · June 04, 2004, 07:28:50 PM

Page#5.
???? ??? ???

Den Socling · June 04, 2004, 07:34:12 PM

Jeez! ;)
https://forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=drying;action=display;num=1082336613;start=80

rerednaw · June 05, 2004, 01:07:52 AM

Den,

For first time i think what mylar is used for heat plates. Now i see what it is only for protect plates. In which way they heat it ? really by VERY HIGHT current ? maybe you remember thickness and width of plates and how high current they use ? and why they don't use another metall (with more low electroconductivity then aluminium) ? and (if right understand what is mylar) it must have very low heat conductivity and this is no very good. or maybe they use high-frequency current for heat plates ?

rerednaw · June 05, 2004, 01:18:31 AM

Don_Lewis,

we need to dry not long board but smal near 5x30-10x50cm. i think in convertional it will be crack. about dehumdification kilns i first time hear mounth ago when woodmizer in belarus plan to buy one for internal use. and i'm sure for 100% what in our town (400 000 people) no one have dehumdification kiln. so i totally unknow how good and quick they are. Is they usefull for drying small board like i described ? as they principle is dehumdification i need hermetic kiln for it ?

Den Socling · June 05, 2004, 08:04:47 AM

Rerednaw,

The fuse on the high voltage (240VAC) side of WoodMizer's transformers was 15 amp. I'm guessing that about 10 volts was supplied to the blankets. That would put current up around the 200-300 amp range.

On Tuesday, we will be installing a conventional kiln controller for a company that still runs two WoodMizers. While there, I'll take a look at the blankets again. The flexible blanket was supposed to take care of the heat transfer problem in a continuous vac system. Have I mentioned that discontinuous is much less complicated and easier to build? :D

Den

rerednaw · June 05, 2004, 11:18:35 AM

Den,

One more thanks for you answers

i try to made discontinuos vac system as you advice, but with electrical heating, becouse i think what heating with plates will be quickly and precise then by heat air. maybe i wrong ? and buy the way "disconyinuos system" mean discontinuos heating or discontinuos vac ? as i understand - vac

is it possible to make photos of this plates or maybe this person who have it will be kindly to talk with me by email ?

And what is you opinion about dehydration of air by wiltering woven wire cloth (like C120 at http://www.lepse.ru/eng/catalog_e/woven/filt_w/) ? is it better when condensation on pipe with could water ?

Den Socling · June 05, 2004, 02:51:53 PM

Rerednaw,

A discontinuous vac with heating plates? An interesting idea but it is more complicated than putting the wood on stickers and blowing air through a heat exchanger. I've actually considered using our water heated kilns in a discontinuous fashion for wood with unusual shapes like bent chair parts.

In discontinuous vacuum drying, neither the vacuum nor the heating is normally continuous. The vacuum is interrupted to heat and the heat is interrupted for the vacuum. One thing you will need to be careful with and that is the heating. When I suggested to these guys that they blow warm air, it is because that can be gentle heating. The air can also carry high humidity to protect against cracks. A heating plate could be damaging to wood.

A good, low cost condenser could be available from any company that sells heating systems. The fin tube that they use in baseboard hot water heaters works well. The aluminum fins somehow hold up to the acid, the copper is easy to work with and it's fairly cheap. You could probably get it from a salvage yard, as well.

You might contact WoodMizer and see if Mike Eichenberger is still there. He was the last one left (that I know of) who knew about their vacuum kiln. He may be able to give you some technical details. By the way, my idea to counter the hot spots was to cut the blankets into slits. The idea was that the resistance would go up and the current would go down at hot spots. WoodMizer's engineers wanted to test the idea the the kiln 'discontinued'! and we never tested it.

Den

Fla._Deadheader · June 05, 2004, 03:35:26 PM

Space Race, eh ??? :D :D We had to pay for the insurance and new User's Agreement this past week, so, we had to hustle for some bucks. If the backhoe is still available this coming week, we will drag the tank out and cut the end off to fashion our door.

Still trying to figure the best way to make the heat exchanger. Thinking about a Solar water heater and that base board heating tube. Once the tank is cut, I will be pestering Den for ideas on the heat duct. ;D

Den Socling · June 08, 2004, 05:32:34 PM

Rerednaw (where did that name come from?) sent me a link to Russian vacuum kilns. I do believe that they are discontinuous.
http://www.ecp.ru/en/products/bc.shtml

old3dogg · June 08, 2004, 05:58:50 PM

Yep!
Aint no plates in them babies!

Fla._Deadheader · June 08, 2004, 07:13:37 PM

  Very good link. 8)

  Den, would you care to try to explain how the air duct? on top will circulate the air??? Maybe I am trying to make this more difficult than it is. Looks like the 4 pipes going into the top of the chamber, are fed from the larger pipe that is directly behind the air duct??? If so, how does the air get in and around the stack of boards, if you are blowing air straight down??? Is it possible that the air just needs to be blown into the chamber and it will circulate itself??? Is there baffles needed inside the chamber to direct the air flow ???

  I already know how the door needs to be hinged, and I have a good idea on how the gasket mating pieces should be fabricated to get a good seal. The air thing is what has me confused, unless, the pipes on top are the VACUUM manifold ???

rerednaw · June 09, 2004, 01:05:30 AM

Den,
rerednaw (wanderer) - just a nick

My name Alexander.

all,
if you want i post a lot of link (but in russian lang) with photo of vac kilns. about previous link and other: they write what his kiln dry in 24 hours, but in real life it is not true

in russia it is normal

this one with heating plates:
http://www.estikaru.nsys.by:8101/pictures.htm#3

http://lesosushilki.ru/vakyym.htm
http://www.magnetron.ru/eng/products/index.htm
this one the best i think:
http://www.vacuums.ru/proc.html
http://www.vacuums.ru/econom.html
http://www.vacuums.ru/part.html
another one with plates:
http://www.pribor.mari-el.ru/vacuum.html
http://drywood.narod.ru/drykiln.html
a lot of good photos:
http://www.kv777.ru/kv777.htm

Den Socling · June 09, 2004, 05:40:04 AM

Wow! You have been wandering the Russian internet. Thanks for all of those links. Very interesting pictures and I'm glad I can't read the descriptions. Probably says 'perfect drying in 24 hours - bright, white and degrade free'. :D

To you builders: there's some crazy looking stuff in some of the photos but some ideas, too.

Tom · June 09, 2004, 07:46:51 AM

I don't know everything I looked at, but I sure enjoyed the visit.

serg · June 12, 2004, 01:22:24 AM

Hello! You actively discuss technology of drying of wood in vacuum dryer WDE. Our site www vacuums.ru let's discuss not only a contact way of heating but also other technologies. We are ready to discuss technology of drying in the environment sated pair in vacuum. If we have distracted you from a discussed theme, we shall not disturb more. Thank.

Fla._Deadheader · June 12, 2004, 04:55:56 AM

  Hi Serg. I doubt if anyone here feels disturbed. The technology of drying wood differs from country to country and all info is very welcome in our Forum. I for one, wish there were a way to convert the website to English, so I could better understand the info.

  If anyone knows of a way to translate the website, I would sure like to know about it.

   //www.%20vacuums.ru

Den Socling · June 12, 2004, 05:19:13 AM

Well, right click and 'translate to English' didn't work too well. :D

And Serg, welcome to the forum. The discussion is open to all.

Tom · June 12, 2004, 08:50:49 AM

Serg.
You're welcome to the site to join in on discussions. Don't use it for an advertisment for your company. Your presence will get you recognition without making an effort at drawing customers.

I received a report asking me to attend your website. That reporting function you used is for members to report offending posts to administrators of the Forum. It will not enhance interest in your website.

Some of the members you see on our Drying topic are manufacturers. Some are kiln operators. Some are potential manufacturers or customers. By taking a part in the thread, you will soon find who they are and they will contact you if you have presented an image of good knowledge.

rerednaw · June 12, 2004, 07:11:58 PM

as i remember this site is very poor for interesting techical info. Tomorrow i check it again and translate all about his kiln to english. But Serg i think (if he want) can say a little bit more about drying process in his kiln.

serg · June 13, 2004, 02:09:40 PM

Hello! Once again excuse for ignorance of the English language. We communicate with the help of the program of the translator. I want to address to the colleague from Byelorussia.
   As I have understood from a forum, you want to make the vacuum drying chamber from the railway tank in diameter of 3 meters, a way contact due to flexible heating elements. If it so you receive effect not what æäåòå.:1. A pine and an alder not that wood for which the vacuum way of drying is required. 2. As far as to me have personally explained at an exhibition in Moscow, the contact way of drying is effective only from initial humidity of 25-30 %. And where you are going to dry from 80 up to 30 %? 3. The Russian manufacturers from Izhevsk, and a board of an oak, a nut, a beech etc. thickness 50ìì can not dry others.
4. The contact way gives up to 25 % of a marriage(spoilage) (disorder of humidity on length and thickness)
5. How you are going to load on such height of a board?
6. If you will collect a condensate all surface of capacity you will have marriage(spoilage) of wood because of small quantity(amount) pair in the drying chamber.
7. If you will apply fans, stagnant zones which to find out very difficultly will appear.
8. Under the cost price of manufacturing in Byelorussia you receive heavy losses. Expected effect will fail.
You are right, in the Russian market the set of vacuum drying chambers both domestic, and import is offered:
1.    Vacuum, Mr. E.Pan'otstsi
2.    Vacuum, Teodor Vanihec
3.    Vacuum - compres Russia
4.    Vacuum - pulse, Russia
5.    Vacuum - aerodynamic, Russia
6.    Vacuum - having blown Russia
7.    7. Vacuum contact, Russia

Half of sales declared in the Internet there are in one copy, and some only in the theory.
If to continue, I wait for questions. Thank serg

Den Socling · June 13, 2004, 02:51:59 PM

A discussion between two Russians in our forum.

wow

Serg,
I think I tried to warn about 'degrade' (marriage spoiled :D) a few post back. I'm afraid the points of contact will overheat.

'Contact' drying is good only from 30% down? I'm glad that isn't true but I can't tell you how to fix your process.

If I read your post correctly, you are right about condensing everything on the chamber wall. If you do, humidity will get too low for some species at some times.

Again, you sound like a man with some experience in vacuum drying when you mention the 'stagnant zones'. That is another point I've tried to make in this discussion of building a discontinuous vacuum kiln. It will work only if the builder can get air to circulate (and heat) evenly.

Den

rerednaw · June 14, 2004, 02:31:21 AM

"1. A pine and an alder not that wood for which the vacuum way of drying is required."

For me important is time of drying. Only from this point of view.

" 2. As far as to me have personally explained at an exhibition in Moscow, the contact way of drying is effective only from initial humidity of 25-30 %. And where you are going to dry from 80 up to 30 %? "

I hear this for first time. Why only from 30% (when in wood is no more "free" water) ? What prevent water from evaporate in 30-80% ?

"3. The Russian manufacturers from Izhevsk, and a board of an oak, a nut, a beech etc. thickness 50ìì can not dry others."
Maybe they need to develop one more program process for pine ?

"4. The contact way gives up to 25 % of a marriage(spoilage) (disorder of humidity on length and thickness)"

i still totaly not understand why heating by water in plates (contact metod, right ?) don't overheat and degrade wood while electrical plates overheat ? Even if i control temperature in area where wood cannot have an influence.

"5. How you are going to load on such height of a board?"

height it only 1.80m

and 1.20 (60 and 60) is unused area.

"6. If you will collect a condensate all surface of capacity you will have marriage(spoilage) of wood because of small quantity(amount) pair in the drying chamber."

I plan to control amount of pair in chamber but don't know at which point (i think near 50%) and dont know its help or no.

"7. If you will apply fans, stagnant zones which to find out very difficultly will appear."

in you www you write what you dont use fans, but speed of movement of air in you chamber is 1m/sec. how you do it ? only by convection ?

"8. Under the cost price of manufacturing in Byelorussia you receive heavy losses. Expected effect will fail."

I think what difference in Russia in Belarussia is what in Russia you can do a lot of manufacturing by unofficial way

So if we find this possibility in Belarussia price will be comparable. no ?

serg · June 14, 2004, 10:34:16 AM

I support and agree (if have correctly transferred(translated)) the American colleague. Only it is warm also air in regular intervals can provide qualitative drying. In Russia of it have not made. Pair a little, start to exhaust water through atomizers to do(make) humidifying for the top layers of wood. While nothing it turns out. Cracks turn out. Internal layers of a tree do not get warm, internal pressure(voltage) exist. If speed only the microwave will help is necessary for you. And why you have overlooked about quality? You look cinema and trust, and I saw all in work! In 2004 of Izhevsk has passed on plates with water from stainless steel. They have adopted it at Italians, only without press. Why they dry from 30 %? Because free water at humidity of 80-100 % gives many(a lot of,much) pair. It results in rotting a wood. The third item(point) I can not understand.
Flexible heating elements adjoin to a surface non-uniformly, with air, as results in non-uniform heating.
Italians have replaced them with aluminium plates with water and have pressed down from above. It has enabled to remove a stain, but has not given them an opportunity to dry from humidity of 80-100 %. Such way have gone also some Russian.
To operate quantity(amount) pair difficultly if the pair is not present, bad quality of a wood and when the pair is a lot of turns out, there is no drying and there is a rotting a wood.
Yes, only a cold downwards warmly upwards it is possible to achieve results.
It is possible to make informal way. You are the inventor.
The essential moments: manufacturing of a flange, the welding seams, capable to hold vacuum. The flange should have a groove for vacuum rubber. The special machine tool is necessary for manufacturing a flange.
Dear sirs! Explain, who the first has applied an electric way of heating America or Italy? Thank.