Help with selection of Mill purchase

[woodworker9]

Hello to all on this great forum.  This is my first of many, many questions.  I've been reading and learning here for over a year now, but this is my first time starting a topic.  I've searched what I can, but need some additional help.

I'm a woodworker by trade.  I've been having another sawyer with a sawmill saw my logs for me for over 10 years now.  Without getting into it, he has become unreliable, and I've decided to get a mill.  I will be sawing for my own use, but also to sell hardwoods to woodworkers.  I've got a good network of woodworkers near me, as I teach some classes, and know quite a few folks in the industry.  I've never had a problem selling off my "overstock" in hardwoods, so I'm looking at this as a small additional profit center to my already established business of 20+ years.

After much study, I'm basically stuck between a bandmill and a swing mill.  Eventually, if all goes well, I can see having both, but for now, due to the present economic situation of the US, I want to start small.  I have a need for 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and 8/4 stock, as well as a need for wide boards. 

If I get a bandmill, I'm gonna buy a Woodmizer.  I've only been able to read about them, both online and in this forum.  In wanting to start out with as little invested as possible, I was looking at the LT 15.  However, my concerns are with the mill being so basic as to not having toe boards, log turner, etc.....  I do have a bobcat and forks, so log loading is not a concern.  But, not having any experience with a mill, I don't know if using the bobcat to turn larger logs is even feasible without wrecking the mill.

If upgrading to a LT 28 or even a manual LT 40, I don't know what the extra's on each mill will do for me, and whether or not it is worth it.  Also, I don't seem to see many LT 28's around, and the Woodmizer guy in Wisconsin, (the closest to me at about a 5 hour drive each way) doesn't even have one to demo, so can you see my dilemma.

I'm afraid of buying the LT 15, and not being able to deal with taper, turning large logs, etc....  Am I not understanding this correctly.  Is there a reasonable way to deal with taper on a small manual mill like the LT 15, and should I even be concerned about it.   I've learned, mostly here and through my own miserable experiences, that the best wood for woodworking is near the bark, not the pith.  I want to be able to maximize my yield of what I call quality lumber.

OK,  I'm long winded as heck here, so I'll wait for some of your great input, and ask more questions as I learn.

Thanks a lot, and I hope you all don't mind me being a pest with many questions in the upcoming months.  I'm looking forward to this like a small kid in a candy store.

Woodworker9 
aka Jeff

[Tom]

First you need to determine how many logs you are going to be cutting.  If the quantity is 2-5 a week and no more than 10 on occassion, an LT15 would be a good piece of equipment.

Handling taper can be as easy as putting a lever under the end of the log and placing a wedge between the log and the bed of the mill. No rocket science, It's just that you have to stop and do it.  The more you get into a production atmosphere, the less you want to stop to do menial tasks, even if they are important to the end quality of the job. ...ergo, more hydraulics, more horsepower, more equipment, more help, etc.

It is my opinion that a little bandmill is more friendly to logs in the 12"-9" range than a swing mill.

An LT15, or similar mill, will usually be a stepping stone to a bigger mill, but, it doesn't necessarily follow that the LT15 will be disposed of when the bigger mill is acquired.

I was told some good information one time by an old tractor salesman.  I was concerned that the little tractor I was looking at was big enough.  The salesman said, "How fast do you want to finish?"   Then He explained that the most tractors would get the job done, but a bigger one would probably do it faster.   I got the smaller tractor and never have regretted it.  I also found that the little tractor would do things and go places that the big tractor would not have gone.    So, How much time do you want to devote to the sawing end of your business?  How much time will the rest of your business allow for you to devote to sawing?

When you boil a little bandsaw down to its common denominator, it's the same blade being driven by different sized wheels and different horspower.  The blade, even on different manufacturer's machines should perform the same if the  quality of the machine is comparable.

So, the first thing is to determine how much money you have to spend and buy the mill with the most horsepower and log handling features available.  Horsepower is a good thing.  :D

If I were you, I wouldn't even be concerned about buying a used machine for my first machine. Most, if not wrecked, will perform admirably.

[woodmills1]

look for a used hydraulic if you work alone.

[pineywoods]

I would definitely look for a used bandmill. Swingers have their place, but you can't very well upgrade them. I can't speak for the others, but I can the mizers. I bought a used manual LT40 with over 4000 hrs on it. that was 5 years ago. so far I have replaced some belts and bearings and changed out the motor for a different type even. Put brushes in the up-down motor, and replaced some rusted-out sheet metal. That's about it as far as maintenance goes. Added my own hydraulics, well worth the time and expense but that's another story. As long as the frame is intact, these mills can be put in tip-top shape for very little money.
As far as wrecking the mill, never heard of anyone doing that. Do have a friend who bent the backstop on his LT40. BUT, he used a 6000 lb clark forklift to do it.
Whichever way you decide to go, there's more help and encouragement available here than you'd ever dream.. Go for it...

[woodworker9]

Tom
Thanks for the thoughtful response.  I do really appreciate it.

In the beginning, I will probably be sawing 10 to 15 logs per month.  Most of the logs that I come across are in the 15" to 30" diameter range.  The sources I get my logs from know my end use, and don't even call me with the smaller stuff, as I've asked them for larger ones.  With the large amount of growth in this area, there seems to be an abundance of trees being cut down.  On more than just an occassion, I get some logs that would be perfect for a swingmill, in the extra large range.

I've only seen a couple of used LT 15's for sale, and they have sold for within $1000.00 of new price.  For that, I'd prefer to spend the extra, and get a new one.  And, with that in mind, I am certainly not worried about selling it if I want to upgrade.  I don't want my first experience with a mill to be fixing somebody elses problems, as I have ZERO time for that.  However, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase a slightly used mill in great shape for the right price.  (Sounds obvious, huh?)  I check sawmillexchange, as well as here, frequently, and mostly have seen 10 year old mills with lots of hours and use.  That's not gonna be for me until I know what the heck I'm doing.  I figure that I can't diagnose a problem if I don't know what it is.

In your opinion, with the 25 hp upgrade, which I would definately spend the money on, would the LT 15 be able to handle logs well in the 15" to 24" capacity.  I know the specs from Woodmizer say "yes", but I'm looking for practical experience here.

Also, what about turning logs in that size range, 10 to 16 feet long?  Am I asking for a problem relying on the bobcat.  I'm 6'1",  250 lbs, ex-jock, so I'm no wimp, but I have never even had a logrite in my hands, so I don't know what to expect.

Thanks again for the help.

[Dave Shepard]

That LT15 should do what you want. I run two LT40 manuals. One has the manual tapers, however I broke one of them with a HUGE pine log, so now I just use wedges. I keep a variety of wedges and bits of 2x4 on the log deck, and use a Hi-Lift jack to lift the huge logs, it works well. I would say that turning logs in the size range you have mentioned with a peavey should not be a problem. I have turned logs 36"x16' with a peavey on the LT40 before, but it isn't a lot of fun.


Dave

[Larry]

Most logs I turn with a canthook...get the Logrite.  For those too big wrap a chain around the log like a yo-yo and pull up with the loader.  If you want to get creative a boat winch can also be made into a turner.

Toe boards are no biggie either...as Tom wrote a lever along with a wedge is all you really need.  If you can work steel I have a tutorial on how to build a roller toe board on the cheap, somewhere round here.

That 25 HP should zip right through logs.  I have a lot of pics of my 16 HP making 29" wide slabs...slowly.

A new thread was just started today about the large number of good used mills now on the market...sure wouldn't hurt to see what you can find.  Check craigslist and eBay...and be prepared to move fast to catch a good one with low hours along with the right price.

[zopi]

From a guy, who, three weeks ago had not ever operated a bandmill (chainsaw mill, yes) and have only seen one or two
operate, The lt15 is da bomb! yes, I would like to have hydraulics, and have the thing on a trailer..buncha stuff I'd like..

The mill is good stuff, easy to operate, easy to maintain, and easy to work on.

the drawbacks...manual everything, loading, turning, offbearing, setworks, and mill drive.  But it's not that big a deal,
turning a big log, say, 20-28 inches is a pain, depending on how you are cutting it..but there are ways to deal with that,
a little winch boom behind the mill, with a timber hook, wrap the cable around the log (over the top) and winch away..norwood builds a setup like that..i'm about to build one for mine..the other drawback is that the mill is waay too close to the ground...but it can be set up on blocks so there is not as much bending and stretching..you already have a loader so that is a no brainer..raise it up!

I just went back and read your original post..as big as you are..don't even worry about using the cant hook to turn the logs..
I'm 6' 140 lbs (on a good day) and can load and turn an 9' 20" pine with little difficulty..do get the Logrite tho'..must have.

Working a log bigger than about 24 inches on it is a pain..if you will do mostly logs that big, you may be happier with a
larger used mill...if you get a used mill from WM I believe they bring the mill maintenance up to date..

The really big stuff can be quartered with a chainsaw..either freehand or with a CSM..but it's alot of work.

By all means, get the biggest engine you can afford...the 15hp works well for me, it slows down alot on logs bigger than 20"
or so, but it's the difference of maybe 5-7 seconds in the cut on a 20 incher, vice 10-12...big deal..you are making twice the lumber in the same distance...I would like to have the 25, it would make hard wood go alot quicker.

Tom pretty much hit the nail on the head about mill capacity (one of these days I will know as much as Tom.. ;D)
If you are working for production numbers...you want something a bit bigger..I come home from work and go out
and saw for a couple hours...maybe a half hour actually cutting lumber and the rest stacking, or cleaning or rolling logs..
and will ordinarily make 150- 200 bdft depending on what I am cutting..i've cut..ummm...call it 20 logs in the last week and a half..couple or three hours in the evenings..

For a guy who never operated one before, it took me maybe a couple of days to get the hang of it..it'll take awhile yet
to be any good..but that is just experience I'd imagine..

If you want wide boards..the band is maybe the best bet..slabber attachments on the swingers will do it..but they seem
a little spendy to me...I don't know alot about swingers..want one tho...and I certainly won't knock them..

Are you going to saw primarily for furniture grade wood, or are you doing trim carpentry..or something else?

what lengths are you looking at? Both the lt15 and the swingers are easy to add length to..I am glad I got the
extra bed section..can squeak a 17' log up on there..16 is easy.

Like I say..i'm a nOOb..but in the couple of weeks since I got the band, I am totally sold on both WM and
the bandsaws..and I KNOW I'd still be pretty much clueless without this forum...

now, I just have to learn something about lumber.. :D

[gharlan]

 I bought a used Norwood about 9 months ago. It is their lumbermate 2000 and Is probably very comparable to the  LT-15. I have a 20 honda on mine and the power is plenty so the 25 would be great. I load and turn my logs with a tractor. I can put forks on but have not had a lot of luck with it. The depth between the bed and log is only several inches and I discovered it was quite easy to slide the mill while trying to get under the log. You would have better visibility on the bobcat so that would help. I have gone to wrapping a chain around the log so it will turn in the direction I want when I lift. I will say working it alone  is very slow. I do the same for taper--lift one end and cut a wedge to size with the chainsaw.  I have probably only cut around 1500 bd feet of usable lumber so far and I will tell you that I lust for hydraulics. Once I get a cant to a size I can handle I can produce a lot of lumber quickly, its getting to that stage that is the problem. I find myself taking a few more cuts on a face than I want just so it will be a little easier to turn by hand as getting the tractor is a slow process. I suspect that using the manual mill would be a lot like working in your wood shop with only a table saw for a power tool. It would all get done but at a slower pace.

I do not live in a part of the country that has timber. This is farm land so the logs I come by are few and far between. In my eagerness i can say I have cut several that were just firewood but I am learning. If I thought I could produce some marketable lumber with my mill I would upgrade to a used hydraulic mill. I enjoy cutting logs and seeing what I find inside but at the end of a day on the mill I am quite tired and then I have a stack to sticker. Maybe the best advise would be get a manual mill and see if you enjoy it. If so keep your eyes peeled for a hydraulic.  good luck and happy sawing----gary

[woodworker9]

I'm gonna get on up to Woodmizer in Wi and check out the LT 15 and the LT 40.  That will help me alot in making a decision.  Thanks for all the good info.  It seems that starting with the small mill and seeing how it goes makes alot of sense.  It'll probably end up being what I do.  I'll continue to ask questions as I think of them.

[Furby]

WM headquarters in Indy is only about 4 hours or so from you depending on when ya pass through Chicago.
Seems like I'd go there instead of 5 hours to WI.

[gharlan]

Sounds like a great plan but you might want to make sure you are in a vehicle with a good hitch!

[woodworker9]

Furby
4 hours to Indy, maybe at 4:00 AM.  Trying to get through Chicago, even going around, is always an adventure, and I'd rather go North, anyway.  It takes me 2 hours to get to a Cubs and Blackhawks game.

gharlan
I here ya on the hitch.  I'm a bit afraid I might drag back something bigger than I need! 

[beenthere]

Besides, then he has a possible chance of a Roxburger on his way up or on the way back... ;D ;D 8)

(woodworker9...let that be an invitation..for sure)

[Furby]

I've spent the last two years delivering in and around Chicago and that means as many as 6 days a week through there at times.
It isn't that bad and you don't need to do it that early.
I wouldn't have given you that time frame if I didn't know for a fact that it was possible.
If you need some travel tips through there drop me a note.

[woodworker9]

beenthere

Hmmmmm.............what's a Roxburger?? ???  Sounds good!

Furby

Thanks for the offer on help.  I'm a  born and raised Chicagoan.  I guess I just hate going through there, and it's definately why I moved way out to Crystal Lake.   Besides, I love driving through Wisconsin.  It's just purtier....

My son's a hockey player, senior in high school.  We travel all over North America.  In the last month, I've driven to New York and Pennsylvania for tournaments.  Traffic around "the horn" was horrible both times.  And, to make it real fun, I hit a snowstorm on the way back on New Years Eve.  Now that was real fun!  Four big rigs jackknifed, and in the ditch.  One on it's side.

[beenthere]

Roxburger??

Stop by the Roxbury tavern, (only open for lunch on Fridays if'n it is winter season), get a Roxburger.

Comes with a fresh ball of grilled ground beef, on a grill-toasted bun, with slices of ham, bacon, and a fried egg.  Deelicious.. (or search "Roxburger" and catch up on this stopping spot).  We'll try to work out such a side trip if'n it works out with the WM trip schedule.  Roxbury is NW of Madison.

There are other options that we might make to catch up with you on your way through, depending on your timing (and ours...including Burlkraft here too  ;D ) 

p.s. I'll see him in an hour at the Rox. 8)

[ErikC]

  by pineywoods

I would definitely look for a used bandmill. Swingers have their place, but you can't very well upgrade them.

To some degree thats true. You can't really add hydraulics, but why would you. The swing mills don't need them. Blade size can be upgraded on Petersons, as can motor size, and track length. Elecric sizing is available as well. So there is room for upgrade, on what is a very versatile mill in the first place. Wide boards are the biggest disadvantage with swingmills in my experience. But that can be dealt with to a large degree by doublecutting.

Erik

[woodworker9]

Erik

I've been intrigued by the swingmill for quite a while.  At first, I thought that it would be my first choice in a mill.  However, I'm leaning towards investing in the bandmill first. On the swinger,  I like the idea of not having to turn the log, and it seems that quartersawing would be a much easier task on the swinger.  I suppose, also, that having a slabbing attachment would take care of cutting wider slabs, but I wonder how much waste is involved with the chainsaw-like kerf.  The swinger would be perfect for making 8" wide boards for woodworking (I was looking at the Lucas), but the concept of double cutting by myself seems tedious, and unrealistic as an individual task.  Am I wrong??

I think starting with the bandmill will work well for me.  Then, if all goes well, and I have a steady outflow of sales of hardwood like I believe I will, I may just make my next mill an 8" or 10" swinger, and keep the bandmill for those wider slabs.  I guess only time will tell.

I've got a large cabinet job that I've got to complete for a customer, approx. 2 more weeks.  When it's done and installed, the next day I'm heading north to check these Woodmizers out.

I'd considered a small 6" Lucas to start with, but 6" wide boards don't do me much good with the type of work I do.  I need wider boards for bookmatching, etc... so an 8" would be the minimum that I would consider, and that's alot more money.  If double cutting were easier to do, I'd be alot more intrigued by a swinger to start with.

Thanks alot for your input.

Jeff

[Part_Timer]

WW9

The LT15 is a good mill.  I had one for a couple of years then went to the swinger. The lt performed well and dealing with taper and turning is no problem at all.

Doublecutting on a Peterson is no big deal at all to do by ones self.  it just takes a bit of practice just like anything else. 

If you ever want to try running a swinger just drop a line.  I'd be happy to let you run mine for an afternoon any time you want to.  I'm about 1 1/2 hours straight north of WM Indy.

[Tom]

In your opinion, with the 25 hp upgrade, which I would definately spend the money on, would the LT 15 be able to handle logs well in the 15" to 24" capacity.  I know the specs from Woodmizer say "yes", but I'm looking for practical experience here.

Also, what about turning logs in that size range, 10 to 16 feet long?  Am I asking for a problem relying on the bobcat.

The 25 hp upgrade is money well spent, especially if you are going to be working with larger logs.

The 15" logs, even in 16' lengths will be little trouble.  The 24", or greater, will probably test your constitution.  Still there are rigging tricks that will get them turned.  Some as simple as greasing the bunks of the mill, learning to use the "big" muscles to lift or your weight to pull, lengthening the handle of the canthook but putting a piece of pipe over it, rolling the log backwards when it doesn't want to go forward, and using the hydraulics of the bobcat as a last resort.  The bobcat should be a good attribute, though you will soon find that it can slow you down as much as help you do the job.  Speed comes from having everything already done.  You lose a lot of time when you stop, mount the machine, crank it, move it, do the job, park it, get out and go to the mill to resume sawing.   It's neat when you first start, but soon, as you become more experienced, nothing will be fast enough, including the LT15.  Just understand that experience even slows down the LT300 to an operator too. :D

You might consider building a frame over the mill so that you can hang a chainfall over the mill. Then you could use it to turn big logs.  A boat winch will do it too as long as you can lift upwards. Put a hook(like a fishhook) on the end of the line, wrap the line around the log and stick it into the log. It'll turn.

[thecfarm]

I myself keep my loader away from my mill.I put the logs on 2 bunks and than I roll them by hand,peavey,on to the mill.I don't need to push the mill around because I can't quite see what is going on.I've been known to be rough with stuff.I have had to get the wife to dog in a few logs for me.I can do fine with at least 2 square sides.It's just the second one is hard.The log will try to roll back because I can't quite hold the log and work the dog.These were all 16 footers.I've seen those winches on manual mills.The guy I bought mine from has them set up at demos.They do work good,but I can still do it with a peavey,so I will.

[zopi]

I suppose, also, that having a slabbing attachment would take care of cutting wider slabs, but I wonder how much waste is involved with the chainsaw-like kerf. 

@ 1/4" kerf...1 bdft per 4 foot cut in 12" material... ;)  or 1 bd ft in 3 ft for 3/8" kerf...I think...it's been a long day.

[ErikC]

  I have only run the peterson, but doublecutting is no extra effort. Once you get the procedure down, it's easy. There is a heavier kerf with slabbers than the blade. I above log scale all the time. The slabber is not so much for wide boards as thick wide slabs, so it isn't as wastefull as it seems. 16" wide boards are plenty for me, and thats what the 8" mill will do. I would get the 8" over 6" if the money is there. I bought the 6" and upgraded it later, cost me a lot more in the long run. The manual band mills are more work in some ways, but everyone who has them seems to like them.

Erik

[woodworker9]

Part Timer

That is a kind offer, and I'd love to operate a swingmill.  I'll definately contact you when the weather improves to do that.  I can't think of a better way to learn than watching someone who knows what they are doing. 

Tom

Down the road a bit, I definately plan on putting a roof over the mill.  Having some beefy structure to hook a chainfall to is a good tip.  I'll mostly be milling 10 footers.  I'll only mill 16 footer when I need moulding stock.  I have a Williams and Hussey Moulder, and do a little bit of side business on crown and base to a couple of local builders, so I may be able to amp that business a little, too, as long as I can get the longer logs.  99% of the time, the tree guys and the excavators cut the logs shorter, anyway.

Erik

If I learned correctly, the Peterson Mill doublecuts by removing a cowl/shield and pulling the saw back.  The lucas requires the carriage to be picked up off the tracks, and reversed.  Is this correct??  I don't see myself picking the carriage up too frequently.

[WDH]

Woodworker9,

I am no big producer, but I have cut about 30,000 bd-ft on my LT-15.  I do not have the bed extension, so I can only cut logs up to 10.5 feet.  However, I cut for woodworking as you plan to do, and with the exception of moulding, most of the time in hardwood, shorter is better for wood working end use.  There are times when people need 16 foot hardwood boards for projects, but many times, 8 feet is all they need. 

I aim to cut 10.5 foot logs if the tree can handle it.  You can easily turn 95% of the logs in this length with the log peavy by yourself.  I also cut 8.5 foot logs, but prefer 10.5 foot as ideal.  This allows you to stack more footage in the same height stack versus 8.5 foot boards, and it increases production on the sawmill.

Here are some numbers for you.  Alone, with the logs prepared and near the mill, I can cut, tote and stack 500 bd-ft a day.  However, a day in this context is a full 8 working hours.  This is with logs that average 12" or larger on the small end with a mix of 10.5 feet and 8.5 feet in length.  To me, the ideal log is about 16" on the small end.  I have cut up to 26", and the mill did fine.  It is harder to handle the logs, but I could do it.

With a partner, you can easily cut, tote, and stack 1000 bd-ft in a day if the logs are ready to saw.  My best day with a partner, on walnut, was 1300 bd-ft per day, but the logs were ideal in size.  I am not sure how these numbers compare to the published Woodmizer numbers, but you can depend on them because they come from many days of sawing on my part. 

I normally average 500 - 600 feet with a blade.  However, I wash the dirt off all the logs before I put them on the mill.  Takes a little time, but I am not a professional sawyer where production is critical, so the extra time is better spent in my opinion. 

With the number of logs you are talking about, that mill will be sitting idle 95% of the time.  Buying bigger won't help unless you plan to saw many more logs than you described.  The re-sale is super, so it is a sound investment if you want to bet bigger later.

[ErikC]

  On the peterson, just take off the blade gaurd and doublecut. It is 2 wingnuts that fasten it. Pretty easy. Someone with a Lucas will have to go over the method for theirs, as I haven't run one.

Erik

[ironstumper]

Woodworker9,
                       I operate a used Lucas 827. But I am still new to this business,so keep that in mind. My understanding is there is a shortcut to double sawing which I admit I havn't tried yet. The way to do that by your self would be to saw through the horizontal cut. Then bring the carrige back over the log so the blade will be supported by the log.....Lower the rails to take the pressure off from them.....Then simply rotate the carrige 180 degrees. You'll have to take carefull measurements to bring both sides of the rails back to their original position. And keep in mind...If the carrige is not in the center than you can release the brake and reposition that while swinging. I believe that would be fairly simple once you get the hang of it......And by the way....I got a pretty good deal @ 6k price tag for a machine barely used....That with a log arch put me into business 

[cantcutter]

I think no matter what type of mill you buy, you will be very happy with it. I started out looking for a mobile demensions and ended up with a Timberking 1600. I get into alot of large hardwood logs and the timberking is advertised as being able to saw a 36 inch log. I have found that when dealing with logs that large it would be handy to have a swinger or MD. First off the loader on the mill cannot lift a 10 ft oak log that big around and second, once it is on the mill there is no way in the world you are going to turn it :D I have a backhoe on the job now and even wraping a chain around the log and lifting up with the hoe only manages to bend the log stops :
So the bottom line is not every mill is handy for every log. If anybody has a swinger in central kentucky and wants to barter some sawing,  have a few logs that need doing

[woodworker9]

WDH

Thanks for the information.  That sort of hands on experienced info is exactly what I hoped to hear about here. 
Most of the logs I'll be cutting will be 10 footers, plus a little for waste.  I'll need the 16 foot capability only for moulding wood, so we'll just have to see how that part goes.  I've got one good customer on mouldings right now, and he buys 12 foot lengths from me, mainly because I've got alot of dried poplar in that size, and he builds custom homes with alot of painted mouldings in it.

If I get to 30,000 bf with this mill, then something is definately going right!!

ironstumper

Wow!  You got a great deal on your Lucas.  If I found one anywhere near here for $6K with an 8" blade, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.  Then, one of you fella's would have to show me how to work it!! ;D

[WDH]

WW9,

The production numbers that I quoted are for 1" material.  If you were cutting 2" material for framing/construction, the production rates would be higher.

[clousert]

My portable mill has tapers - they are a very nice feature.  I also have the lap siding attachment for sawing lap siding.  It is cams on a long rod that rock the cant up and then back to home position.  Change it every other cut and get lap siding.

If you can afford the log turner, it sure is handy.  Portable mills are more difficult to turn the log with a canthook because you end up climbing up on the machine to turn heavy logs.

[ahlkey]

I was recently purchased my first sawmill.   I researched all the top mill manufactuers  (ie...circular, swing, chainsaw, and bandsaw),  talked with numerous customers, and then visited onsite the operation of two mills.   I looked at around 10 different mills and even took the time to visit the WoodMizer Wisconsin headquarters as well. 

In the end, I decided on a bandsaw model and narrowed it down between the WoodMizer L-15 and the Norwood LumberMate 2000.  These two models have comparable specs with the WoodMizer cutting 28" logs up to 11 ft long and boards up to 23 inches wide.  The LumberMate  2000  cuts 31" logs up to 13 ft long and boards 24" wide.   One deciding factor for me was the overall construction.  The LumberMate comes with nearly twice the thickness in the steel makeup as the L-15.  I also liked the modular design since if you accidently damage a rail with a skid loader or something  you can replace a section easier than the entire welded rail.   The references of the LumberMate customers spoke highly of the lifetime service support they get while the L-15 customers did not express the same degree of confidence.   I am always surprised what customers say (if the manufacturer only knew ????) so I would encourage you to not only test drive the sawmill but call directly at least 3-5 references who have used the sawmill for 2 years or more before deciding on the sawmill that fits your needs.  I decided I needed a larger HP model for those larger logs so it came down to the WM L-15 with the 25 HP Kohler engine listed at $6,995 or the LM with a 23 HP Briggs & Stratton for $5,890.   In the end, my decision was to go with the LumberMate but the comments on the WM L-15 made it a close second.  I have been very happy so far.   I hope this helps somewhat and best of luck to you in your decision

[woodworker9]

Thanks to everybody for all the insight.  I'll be checking out a few mills in person in the next few weeks, and hope to have my mind made up by the end of the month.  I will certainly let you all know what I get, and since I see "We like pictures!!" more than any other statement here, with the possible exception of "DanG",  8) 8) :D :D , I will try to figure out how to post some pics of it when I get it home and running.

WW9

[Dan_Shade]

I think an important thing to keep in mind is opportunity cost when doing a lot of tasks.  Many of the smaller mills take a lot more time to operate than people may realize, if you aren't careful all of your free time revolves around beating the bugs to the boards, so to speak. 

I have an LT40 hydraulic with a 25HP engine, I wish I had more. I'm sure what Tom said about the LT300 and the operator waiting on it is true.  8 - 10 logs a week can turn into an all day event with a smaller mill, most professionals don't have enough time to do that sort of thing because it's not a money maker, it turns into a money looser.

I also believe for grade material, a bandsaw or traditional saw is the way to go, I turn the cant a lot while sawing for grade, i'm not sure how to accomplish this with a swing mill.  The best advice that many people never take is going to work around a mill for a day or so with a guy that has one like you want, a full day or two will let you see what you like and dislike.   

[woodworker9]

8 - 10 logs a week can turn into an all day event with a smaller mill, most professionals don't have enough time to do that sort of thing because it's not a money maker, it turns into a money looser.

Dan_Shade    This statement says it all.  This is the only concern I have with buying the smaller mill, and is the one issue I haven't worked out in my head, yet.  Seeing the different mills in action will hopefully settle the issue for me.  I won't spend a nickle until I've figured it out the best I can.  Thanks for reiterating what my largest concern is.  It's good to know my concerns are shared by others with much, much more experience.

WW9

[Dan_Shade]

I learned that when I owned a small 8hp manual mill, I'd spend all day gnawing on logs.  Now, I can cut in a weekend what I cut in a year with my old mill.

Have you beat the bushes for another sawmill operator in your area?   If you need to have a reasonable production level, the mills that will meet that criteria are expensive.  Do you work alone, with "free" (friends/family) labor, or hired labor? 

[thecfarm]

ahlkey,welcome to the forum and congrats on your first mill.Do you have it yet?Sawed anything with it?You will have alot of fun with it.I only have a manual mill,but I only saw for myself.I have turned down alot of jobs.I will saw out enough for a dog house,but that is it.I might of made $500 with it so far.I did not buy it to make money with.I bought it to saw out my own trees to build things that I want.I have heard of people trying to make a dollar with a manual mill.Takes alot of work to do it and it's alot slower.Time is money.

[woodworker9]

Have you beat the bushes for another sawmill operator in your area?  from Dan_Shade

Dan
I have been using the only local guy with a mill for about 10 years now.  He has turned his operation into a pretty large one, and makes as much, if not more, mulch as he makes lumber.  He is charging $1.00 per bf now, and won't budge on price.  All logs must be brought to his site.  He won't travel with his mill.  He has a LT40.

He's managed to really aggravate the local excavators, woodworkers, and the like with his pricing, but I don't think he cares.  The last 2 times I brought logs to him, I had about 1000 bf of cherry, and 1500 bf of maple.  I gave him specific instructions on how I wanted it sawn, and he sawed them through and through, anyway.

It won't take much to take business away from this guy, if that's what I want to do.  Right now, my intent is to produce really good quality woodworking material for sale.  My woodworking business is quite established, and I also teach woodworking classes out of my shop.  I've got a decent sized group of hobbyist woodworkers who come to me for 100 bf here, 100 bf there, etc.... and I've made good contacts with other cabinet shop owners who've expressed an interest in what I'd be selling.  There are 3 hardwood lumber sources around here, and all are about an hours drive.  They are charging $4.50 to $6.00 per bf for cherry, maple, walnut, and QS white oak, and getting it.  They give us cabinet shops a 10% discount on their normal pricing.  So, there definately is an opportunity here.

I'm not looking to break the bank with this, either.  After being in business for 20+ years, I've learned quite well about adding new small profit centers to the existing business, and this would fit right in.  I hope to add approx. $2000.0 per month in income, and if it does better, then great.  If not, we'll all still be just fine around here.

Thanks for your input. 

[Steve]

Holy smokes $1 per board foot!!! 8)

[Dan_Shade]

You definately have understandable concerns, filling a demand often leads to new enterprises.  Good luck, the best thing is you have a good understanding of what woodworkers want and can market that experience.

My motto is "if it were easy, everybody would be doing it". 

[ahlkey]

theCfarm, thanks for your comments.  I saw for my personal use only and would agree if I was worried about labor costs I likely would not have purchased a manual sawmill.  So far I have been cutting for only a little over a month and everything is going well.

[ronwood]

woodworker9

At $1.00 per bd ft. I would be looking for a mill also. How does he get any business?

Ron

[thecfarm]

At a dollar per bf I would be sawing out more than a dog house.       

[Drew b]

Re: log turning.  My band mill has 2x6 channel rails onto which I welded a couple of heavy hinges with 2x2 tubing welded to them.  Then I welded a trailer axle with 15" wheels onto the tubing.  My mill sits up about 2.5' from the ground so the axle hangs out of the way below the mill.  When I need it I swing it up and chain it into position and peavey the log against  the wheels.  The fir logs are pretty stinking heavy but I can still turn 24" x 18' log.  But its a lot of work for an old fart like myself so I did some magic with a hydraulic cylinder under the frame.  The hydraulics are slower but for really heavy wood it saves the shoulder.  With the swinger you can make all your horizontal cuts (up to 8 if 1") before lowering the rails and swinging the trolley 180 degrees to finish the other side of the log:  max width 16".   At a buck a bdft I'd be full time!!  The guy is obviously too busy.

[woodworker9]

woodworker9

At $1.00 per bd ft. I would be looking for a mill also. How does he get any business?

Ron

Tell me about it!!!!  Everytime I drive by, he's got a stack of logs waiting to be milled.  I could write pages of all the mistakes this guy makes, but noone would care, and it isn't pertinent.  I'll tell you one, though, because it effected me on my last load.  I wanted to be there when he milled my cherry.  I offered to offload for him, at no discount, as it wasn't by the hour, and to sign a waver for liability.  He said, "NO!"  I told him, then, to call me as soon as he was finished, because I wanted to get the boards stickered asap.  (He deadstacks EVERYTHING on his site.)  3 weeks go by, and no phone call.  I finally drive over there, and my cherry boards, sawn through and through, instead of for grade, with knots right down the center of every 18" board, is sitting out in the 90° direct sunlight, warping away, stacked with no stickers.  I was furious.  And, the bark was still on.   After a pretty tense 20 minute "discussion", I paid him 50 cents per bf, agreed to not snap his scrawny neck, and started researching sawmills that night. 

That's how I found this great forum.

Ronwood

He gets business because he's the only game in town.  Well, not for long!  And truthfully, I really don't want to saw for others, at least not initially.  I don't think I could with the small mill I'm going to start with.  I also have very little experience operating a sawmill, and want to learn what I'm doing on my own logs before I'd do it for someone else.  With all the help around here, I don't think it will take to long.

[zopi]

y'know...if this guy is the only game in town, you seem to have a golden opportunity to take the high grade market right away from this guy...he is obviously concerned only with volume, and it seems like there are a number of folks in the area who would
be most interested in what you have to offer...I think you are getting out of the LT15 range though..I love my mill and wouldn't trade for it (bigger WM excepted of course..)..I can saw out a good bit of lumber with a quickness, but not in the same category as where you seem to be going, sawing for grade, as little as i know about it consumes alot more time and effort than what i have been doing...I will likely start turning cants in search of "pretty" in the next few logs I have lined up..wifeys floors must be pretty..it will take alot more work on that manual mill than simply zipping out dimension stuff..

The question is...do you want to go that far? There is market opportunity there, but you may be looking at a hire, and likely a
bigger mill to get it done...maybe a used 40H or 40 with hydraulic retrofit?....there is a guy down the road from me who has
an older 25 with hydraulics fitted..I think it'd do what you want, maybe too slow tho?

Me, I want to saw with a bigger mill sometime in the not too distant future, so I have an idea of what to look for if it comes
to and upgrade in a few years..

[ronwood]

woodworker9,

Its a shame that he can get away with it. Has he never heard of sawing for grade. On some logs I will saw thru and thru if the customer wants some flat, rift, and quarter sawn boards. I mainly do that with red and white oak and only with their approval.

Looks like an opportunity if the would like to go for it. I charge 35 cents for flat sawn and 45 cents for quarter sawing. 

I will dead stack the lumber for the customer and put it in the shade right away. Call the customer right away so they can pick it up.

Ron

[Lud]

Woodworker9,
                           How are  you set up for  storage and drying?  High volume cutting implies substantial storage, stickering, etc.  Are you thinking of a kiln?  There's more to it than just cutting it,right?

                           By the way,  as a manual hobbiest,  I'm getting a lot of great wood cutting a few logs a week.  Whipped out a 4' by 8' workbench for the shop with 3' by 5' legs, 4' by 4' stretchers and a 2 and a quarter inch top out of ash for FREE!  ( OK ,  paid for a handfull of lags I spun in with the pneumatic).

                           It's all good once you've been do'in it.    Go with the manual for the real baseline taste. 8)

[woodworker9]

The question is...do you want to go that far? There is market opportunity there, but you may be looking at a hire, and likely a
bigger mill to get it done...maybe a used 40H or 40 with hydraulic retrofit?....there is a guy down the road from me who has
an older 25 with hydraulics fitted..I think it'd do what you want, maybe too slow tho?

Me, I want to saw with a bigger mill sometime in the not too distant future, so I have an idea of what to look for if it comes
to and upgrade in a few years..

Zopi
For right now, I just want to saw my own logs, and create a nice stock of hardwoods for sale.  Once I complete that mission, and have the milling process figured out, I'll decide if I want to go further with it.  There are only so many hours in the day, and my furniture and cabinetmaking business keeps me very busy.  I already have 2 employees, and one of them has been with me 14 years.  He's a sharp guy, and I can easily teach him the use of the mill.  Heck, we'll probably be figuring it out together, and I can have him mill a few logs here and there by himself when I'm busy.

Lud
I already have a dry shed for storing lumber.  It's 25' X 19', 12' ceiling with large doors that open up to let air through on nice days.  At one time, it was filled with hardwoods, but what I haven't built with, I've sold off.  I am definately going to build a kiln.  I've pretty much settled on the Nyle 200 to start with, and we'll see how it goes from there.  I have been air drying all my lumber with very good success, and I finish it off (12% down to around 7%) in a small dh kiln I built inside my shop.  It certainly can't be used to dry in the volume I want to produce, so I know the Nyle will be a nice addition.  From what I've read, and from the guys I've talked to who have one already, the kiln will pay for itself and a little more, and I'm not too concerned about it at all. 

[woodworker9]

Ronwood

For the life of me, I can't figure the guy out.  He used to do a nice job for me.  But, for the last 4 years, he's been spending alot of time making mulch.  He bought one of those tubgrinders (I think that's what they're called) and he's feeding that thing wood all day long.  Around my area, there is only one place for the tree service guys to dump logs, and they charge for it.  The township has a free dump, but everything has to be cut 18" or shorter, and it's behind a gate, and watched full time like a hawk.  So, all the tree service guys drop off their days refuse at this guys place, and he grinds it up into mulch.  He's got a stack of broken up pallets about the size of a basketball court, too.  Last year, he sold 200 cubic yards of mulch to a local daycare center, and made the front page of the local paper.  They found a 5 gallon pale of nails in it.  It was spread out in the playground where the kids are swinging, and running around, if you can believe it!!

If I can get just a couple more of those tree guys to bring the nice stuff to my place, then I'll be in pretty good shape.

Thanks for your insight.

[Handy Andy]

  Your sawmill guy sounds about like the one I had.  He sawed all the lumber on his inch scale instead of 4/4.  The lumber was 7/8 to 15/16 thick.  You just can't joint a board flat and then plane it if you only have 1/16 to each side to get it straightened up.  So I got my own mill.  Already had a skidsteer and trailers, now just need a sawshed, kiln, and whatever else comes up.  But it sure is a kick for a woodworker to be able to make lumber.  I'm addicted to wood!

[zopi]

    But it sure is a kick for a woodworker to be able to make lumber.  I'm addicted to wood!

Ain't that the truth? Did some 16' 2x10 for the headers in my sawshed tonight...and enjoyed doing the mental math
about how big a check I'd had to write for 'em and the Big Box o crap store.  ;D

I did saw them on the inch scale though...15/16"... ;D :