Peterson ASM Gearbox Problems

[AusLJW]

I sold my 10 inch ASM last year with just over 100 hours on the clock.  The mill just did not work for me.  I sold at a substantial loss.  The guy who bought was the perfect customer for the mill.  His main product is pine sleepers (3" x 8") so no worries.
Now this chap has been going quite well as the mill is well suited to this simple product in pine.  Recently he has had a problem with the gear box and Petersons have given him lots of phone support.  The problem is that after reconditioning the gear box the new customer cannot get the saw to cut properly again.  It will cut but it puts a groove in the next set of boards down.  It does not seem to be able to be adjusted  out of this despite all of Petersons best telephone advice.
Has anyone any ideas as to what might be going on here.  I'm trying to help the guy I sold the mill to as to get Petersons over is rather expensive.
The mill has only 240 hours or so on the clock so it would be reasonable to expect better than this.

Regards from Australia

[Jeff]

What do you mean by reconditioning the gearbox?  Is he using an after market blade of some sort?

[Captain]

It would seem the gearbox was not installed in the same location in relation to the tilt mechanism, or there is a problem with the flange bearing below/beside the gearbox.

Captain

[AusLJW]

Jeff
The output shaft bearing had started to give up so this was repalced and new seals fitted.  All other apsects of the mill were standard, Blades etc.
Captain.  These were my initial thoughts but the new owner assures me that gear box and bottom bearing went back as they came off.
Now he has gone through the set up process and everything goes as per the book until, when the blade is in the vertical position, it is too close to the horizontal cut log surface.  This leaves grooves in the cut surface of the log.  He has tried to adjust the blade position up but is gettting problems with the blade flip adjustments.
Now the more I write this the more it sounds like it can only be the gear box position.
So-  If I were to shim the gearbox so that , in the horizontal position, it was lower in relation to the log surface, that should allieviate the problem without other side affects.
Is this just too simple?  I will be looking at the mill this weekend so I want to go armed with as many ideas as I can

Regards  AusLJW

[abatol]

If I understand you correctly the saw makes a slightly longer cut in the horizontal than in the vertical position .This would seem to mean assuming the blade is plum and true that the distance from the center of the blade to the edge is now longer than the distance from the center of swing to the center of the kerf or blade. sounds like something didnt go back on right. disregard if I'm off base

[Jeff]

I'd be willing to bet there is a part either left over or mis or mal-placed, probably a shim or a spacer. Sounds like a mis-assembly problem to me if it worked before he tore it apart.  I know from tearing stuff apart myself, You better put widget "A" where widget "A" belongs and by all means don't leave it in the parts box.  I would imagine Peterson's would have a tough time helping if the guy claims one thing, and in actuality the cure to the  problem is laying under the dog on the floor somewhere.

[Captain]

"Now the more I write this the more it sounds like it can only be the gear box position."

Can't be anything else other than the gearbox relationship to the pivot axis.

Captain

[LOGDOG]

Captain,

   I'm sitting here in a hotel in New Orleans (without my mill pics) trying to remember how that gearbox on my ASM was anchored. Is there room for adjustment on the gear box or is it in a fixed position? Is there a point he can measure "from and to" to determine if the throw is right?

    I wish him luck. I remember how frustrating that can be with the ASM. I see the guy I sold mine to now has it for sale again.  :-\

LOGDOG

[techmark]

Hey all,

Good spotting Craig and Jeff, you've about hit the nail on the head.

"Husband" has been working closely with AusLJW and the mill owner to rectify the problem, and from what we gather it seems the gearbox and the front bearing have not been put in their original positions after reconditioning.

We'll let you all know how things pan out.

[Firebass]

With only that many hours something was wrong in the first place.  It most likely spun the bearing housing  and now theres nothing holding the whole arbor from dropping down when in the horizontal position.  It doesnt take much movement to make a groove.  

One way to cheat the groove thing is set the swing pivot just slightly shy of perfect square.  I'm talking only a Minuit amount, so much that it will still cut square lumber but the groove will go away.

Firebass

[Jeff]

With only that many hours something was wrong in the first place.  It most likely spun the bearing housing  and now theres nothing holding the whole arbor from dropping down when in the horizontal position. 

Firebass

I dont know how you could read all that into it with the info provided. He might have only tore it down because of a leaky seal, or maybe the thing fell off his truck.

[Firebass]

Jeff,

True, Thanks for the correction ;D   If he were fixing a leaky seal or it fell off the truck I suppose I could be off track.  I'm just giving my best shot as a experienced member to what it could be, replying to his question "does anyone have any ideas what it could be"?.  He's already stated that he's spent many hours on the phone with the manufacture.  I suppose I did jump to the conclusion that they've already checked the simple things such as alignment.  By no means do I mean any disregard for the manufacture.  I am a big fan of there's.  And I think they will consider my observations as well.  My post maybe should have read more like this.

"When bearings fail they do damage to cases and shafts which could cause a saw arbor not to be in it original position".  Hence Grooves

Firebass

[AusLJW]

I think (hope) the shimming of the gearbox will work.  It would be good if I could measure from a point (Like Logdog said) to ascertain how much to shim rather than trial and error. I will have Petersons on the end of the phone for support.
Jeff-to my knowledge, the mill hasn't been dropped from a truck, nothing has been "torn" apart and no one is claiming one thing when another is true. 

Regards from Australia

[Jeff]

"Torn apart" or  "torn down" is a U.S. way to say disassembled. Not meant to be derogatory in anyway. My post was simply to state that coming to extreme conclusions on what might be the issue without all the information might as well include that something like falling out of a truck should be considered as well.

My simple conclusion would be that it was working but needed mechanical attention, it was torn apart to be serviced, it was serviced and reassembled. it didn't work once reassembled. So, there must be a problem with the assembly.

[Nate Surveyor]

All I'm gonna say is that something is not the same as when new.

And, it is fixable, and obvious, to the right person.

And, I gotta get my coffee!

Nate

[LOGDOG]

I would recommend at least three sets of eyes on the project. Sometimes when you're frustrated you can lose the ability to focus and spot something that is happening.

Having a point to measure from and to - repeatedly- to see if and how the problem repeats itself is important. I would take the carriage off the tracks and put it on a level concrete slab with maybe a sheet of plywood under it that you can make marks on with notes maybe on the adjustments you made to get there. Count threads on the bolts if you need to to track your adjustments and the results. Have a framing square handy so that you can keep the saw up in the air off the plywood. Remember that the saw swings something like 5.5" below it's flat elevation in midswing. With the square you can measure up to the blade accurately without getting the blade snagged in the swing. Also, take some construstion adhesive - something like PL400 and glue that plywood down to the concrete. Just a couple of dobbs in the corners to keep it from moving. You can knock it loose when you're done. Taking the head off like that eliminates variables. Hope you figure it out.


LOGDOG

[Firebass]

When I built my swing mill I experienced over cut grooves.  I fixed it by shimming my saw arbor out (towards the blade) 1/8 inch, the distance of the grooves.  Which would be the same as moving the gearbox.

So If, you move your (gear box/saw arbor/Blade-assembly) toward the blade the distance of your grooves depth it will result in cutting more wood on the previous cut which in turn results in the blade not reaching the resulting wood to make grooves.



Firebass

[AusLJW]

Look, no worries Jeff.  To an Englishman "torn apart" implies a process with little regard for detail or care.  I'm trying to get my head around some other US terminology to do with board thickness and volumes.  A 4/4 is a 1 inch board ? Does that make a 8/4 a 2 inch board?  Also, is a board foot 1/12 of a true cubic foot.  I'm asking because I'm just setting up a Nyle/WM kiln and most of the info refers to these units.  I originally learnt in Hoppus feet (hardwood) and cubic metres (softwood) in England then here in Aus its cubic metres but to get the most out of this forum and my American equipment it might be worth becoming familiar with your units (and language).

Will report on the weekends progress

Regards AusLJW

[AusLJW]

Hello
Put in a big day on Saturday and fixed the ASM.  Owner had re-removed gearbox to replace a leaky seal so I put it back with no shims.  Cut the first log and hey presto, no overcut grooves.  It took a long time to get the rest of the adjustments right.  The main culprit being the blade flip mechanism. 
I think the problem was that when the Ag engineer removed and repaced the gearbox he didn't note or mark the position of the bottom bearing.  He must have just put it back on without considering how sensitive the machine would be to this.  The owner had spent hours adjusting the machine around this mis aligned bearing so things were way off.
As the original owner of the mill I had had to replace the gearbox as the bearing fell apart  When I did this I scribed a line around the bottom bearing .  It was still there so it was straightfoward.  Had the Ag engineer looked it would have saved a lot of drama.
If the machine would stop doing bearings in the transmission this would save even more drama. 
Comments anybody?
Regards 

AusLJW

[LOGDOG]

Comments anybody?
Regards 

AusLJW

  I think it was terrific of you to go help that fella figure that out. I know how frustrating it can be to be shut down and at your witts end. And you're right, that machine can be really sensitive on the adjustments. A little goes a long ways on both the flip and depth adjustments. Good job getting things fixed up.  

LOGDOG

[StorminN]

I don't know anything about swing mills, but if the machine is eating up bearings, and assuming the bearings are good quality to begin with, the first thing I would look for is something out of balance... shaft, hub, blade, etc.

It could also be that the mill was set up incorrectly and the blade was being torqued in the cut... maybe "kissing" the sides of the cut as he milled. It will be interesting to see how long the new bearings last now that you've dialed in the setup for him...

-Norm.

[Firebass]

Good to hear you got it fixed.    

StorminN,

I'm with you on your analysis,  I would assume the gearbox would be engineered tough enough to handle a the blade being out of adjustment a bit,  even if only for safety reasons.  Eating up bearings is not a good problem to have on such a critical point.  Maybe it was just a seal problem which dried up the bearing the first time ???  I don't know what kind of gearbox lube the Peterson mill recommends but using Synthetic oil is proven to be far superior than any standard gearbox oil. 


Firebass

[Captain]

Anything but synthetic, not even a synthetic blend, in a Peterson Gearbox and you are asking for trouble.  Firebass is right...

Captain

[Nate Surveyor]

Anybody ever heard of ER? That is, Energy Release. We used to use it in 2 cycle engines, and really loved it. ER is friction reducer. Type Energy Release on Google, and it will turn up. Down side is it is set up multilevel, like Amway. But, So far, I love the product. I put some in my Peterson gear box, and it seems to run quieter, and smoother.

It is a snake oil product, but it really did what they claimed on 2 cycle motors.

Nate

[AusLJW]

Captain
What oil spec do you recommend.  Do you mean do use synthetic or don't.  I just hate the smell of gear oil.
AusLJW