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Skidders

Started by rahtreelimbs, February 06, 2005, 10:28:06 PM

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rahtreelimbs

I know the arbo end of treework but not the logging end. As a treeape my knowledge of skidders is limited.

What does a good skidder cost?

Can they accomodate a bucket?

Why are the chains so expensive?

Anything else I missed?
Nothing Like A  Modded Saw To Start Your Day!!![/SIZE]               Later, Rich.

Jeff

Can't resist. Another good place to drop a link for our new photo archive. Look for the skidder archive!

https://forestryforum.com/imagearchive_menu.shtml
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

leweee

Rich... Be'en a logger for 20+ years I'll give this a Stab
       1.   Cost about the same as a bucket truck.... depending on year & condition.
        2.  No bucket needed (loggers keep both feet on the ground) besides they don't pay well enough for use to climb.
        3.  Chains & Tires are  expensive because of the sever conditions they are subjected to. ( ply rating for tires  & wieght of chain with center rings & grauzzers)
       4.  Two main types of skidders ( cable & grapple)
Well maybe 3 ( If'en you gets too close to the swamp in summer there might be lots of ..moe-skidders) :D
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

sprucebunny

There is a skidder mounted bucket around here every year. Got pics but I can't find them.
They are sometimes for sale or at auction. Do a search on the 'net ;D
The skidder usually has an extended frame and nothing but the bucket. I would think a usable one was more than $25,000 .
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

rahtreelimbs

When I mentioned "bucket" meant the type that a dozer has not the kind you work out of........a cherry picker.
Nothing Like A  Modded Saw To Start Your Day!!![/SIZE]               Later, Rich.

leweee

Rich.. if it has a bucket on the front instead of a blade they call it a PAYLOADER
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

Barkman

leweee,

When you say "PAYLOADER" are you just talking about a regular articulating front end loader?  That is, no grapple or winch on the back end?  I've never seen a wheeled machine with a loader on the front and a winch or grapple on the back.  Might be handy to have a loader on a skidder sometimes, but I would think the backends on most skidders would be a little light to counter-balance the weight of a full bucket.  ???

leweee

Quote from: Barkman on February 10, 2005, 10:26:30 PM
leweee,

When you say "PAYLOADER" are you just talking about a regular articulating front end loader?  That is, no grapple or winch on the back end?  I've never seen a wheeled machine with a loader on the front and a winch or grapple on the back.  Might be handy to have a loader on a skidder sometimes, but I would think the backends on most skidders would be a little light to counter-balance the weight of a full bucket.  ???

you dun broke the code ;D now you know why you never see a bucket on a skidder :) you can have one or the other .... not both ::)
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

Hoop

There are 3 (three) different types of skidders.  A cable skidder, a grapple skidder and a forwarder.

A cable skidder drags trees in tree length sections with the use of a mainline & chokers.

A grapple skidder has a "paw" that grabs tree length sections.

Forwarders (also called short wood skidders) pick up logs that have already been cut into 8' - 16' pieces and transports them to the landing, where they are sorted by species & grade.  Only forwarders have a bucket.

Good skidders are extremely expensive.  A new Ponsse with a double bunk will set you back somewhere in the neighborhood of $250,000.   Timbco's, Valmets and Timberjacks are in the same price range.
Used skidders are like buying used cars, strictly a situation of "Let the Buyer Beware".
There is a used equipment venue very close to here.  http://www.threelakestruck.com/logging.html
All of the used equipment came from auctions or is being sold on consignment.  Most of it was overhauled with a paint can, and nothing more.  Almost none of it is suitable to make a living with, and if one secures a loan, using their house as collateral, they will likely get to experience the joys of moving into an apartment.

I don't think Three Lakes Truck & Equipment is any better or any worse than any used equipment seller.

Loggers generally don't get rid of a skidder that is trouble free and gives them good service.  They do get rid of junk that is a constant money pit, which needs frequent expensive repairs.



leweee

Sorry Hoop ... I don't consider a FORWARDER  a SKIDDER , That's why they have seperate names. :o
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

Dom

A skidder and a forwarder are not the same machines, but they basically do the same thing. A forwarder is used for cut to length harvesting.

My girlfriends father has a 1969 225 super duty Timberjack skidder, its a solid machine and was well taken care of. From what I can see, it doesn't matter what age the machine is, its all about how it was taken care of. A skidder in good condition can be rather expensive, but if you gonna use it, its worthwhile to buy a good one.

I can't say much about chains, but I do know that tracks are expensive as they are very well built. The process in which the metal is treated is complicated. If you were to weld on normal steel, it would not last as long as tracks and chains built by a well known manufactuer. That's my 2 cents, take it as you will. ;)

CosmoPack

I work for an Equipment manufacturer now, so I'll throw in some market info for you.

There are two types of skidders - cable and grapple.  Forwarders are a completely different type of animal.

Grapple skidders are over 98% of skidders manufactured today.

There are two types of grapple skidders - single arch and dual arch.  In the US, typically 70% of skidders sold are single arch and 30% are dual arch.  In Canada, the numbers are reversed.

The single arch skidders have one structural piece "Arch" on the rear that moves the grapple head in an arc up and down to pick up a pile of logs. 

A single arch machine is simple to operate, has fewer moving parts and is cheaper up front.  Also, grapple choices are limited to smaller sizes and more machine movement can be needed to position the grapple to the load.

A dual arch machine has two structural pieces - the lower piece is called the "arch" and moves in an arc like the single arch structure to produce an "in and out" motion.  The "Boom" is atttached on a pivot on top of the arch.  The boom moves in an "up and down" fashion.  This combination of the arch moving in and out and the boom moving up and down makes a dual arch skidder a more versatile machine. 

A dual arch skidder is more versatile, can lift a load higher, can carry larger grapples.  It is also more difficult to operate, has more moving parts thuis requiring more maintenance, and costs more up front.

The question has always been asked, "Which is better - single arch or dual arch?"   There is no definitive answer.  Loggers that operate on flat ground tend to have more single arch machines while loggers opeating in swamps and rugged terrain tend to have dual arch machines.  The higher cost of a dual arch has made loggers shy away in the past, but more loggers are realizing the higher production potential by using a large skidder with a dual arch and a larger grapple and see a benefit there.

There are several segments in the market.  The AEM (Association of Equipment Manufacturers) tracks market size in two classes - <161HP and 161HP+.  1907 skidders were manufactured in 2004. 

In the competitive marketplace, however, there are four distinct classes.  This is a list of the major players in each class-

1 - Deere 548-III/TJ 360D
2 - Deere 648G-III/TJ460D, Cat 525B, Prentice 490/CTR950
3 - Deere 748G-III/TJ560D, Cat 535B, Tigercat 620C
4 - Deere 848G-III/TJ660D, Cat 545, Tigercat 630C

This is the market share of each of the skidder classes in 2004-

Class 1 - 6%
Class 2 - 68%
Class 3 - 13%
Class 4 - 11%

There are some specialty types of skidders as well that are sold in small numbers - clambunks, 6-wheel drive, 8 wheel drive, track drive.  Thee numbers of these machines are very low and most are built on a special basis.



leweee

Cosmo  THANKS for the information  :P  That helped me to understand the subject of grapple skidders a Lot ;D
just another beaver with a chainsaw &  it's never so bad that it couldn't get worse.

Barkman

Yes Cosmo, you are a wealth of information. :P 

I am wondering why your numbers leave out some of the manufacturers.  Notibly Franklin/Tree Farmer and Ranger. 

Thanks,
Kirk

Tillaway

One type not mentioned but seen out west is the swing grapple.  It has a small boom and stick similar to a loader and is able to reach to the side to collect turns.  Maybe about 20'.  They are used to reach over and through obstacles to collect logs and skid them in.

On another side note there has been a large shift in western Oregon and Washington to shovel logging.  Shovel logging does allot less resource damage and is usually more productive than a skidder.  In fact I personnally would be very happy to never see a rubber tired skidder again working on any of my sales.  I may suggest that we eliminate them as an option all together in future sale contracts.  Shovels have the ability to build a mat of debris to work on and only make a few trips along these trails to move all the logs.  So far price wise a conventional skidder ground side is unable to compete in both quantity and quality of the job.  Shovels also load trucks and can carry a set of drums to cable yard upto 600' or so and or throw tongs up to 300'.  Far more versatile machine than anything I have seen so far.  One drawback is they tend to be wide and high which makes them less suited to hardwood thinnings.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

CosmoPack

Hey  Barkman,  I just listed the major players in each class.  Franklin/Tree Farmer and Ranger have several models of skidders, and in certain small pockets have a good following.  On the North American market, however, they are small players with very small market share. 

Tillaway, we have built a few of our machines for the swing grapples to be installed.  I think tha the machines went to Montana and Washington.  I have had the opportunity to go out west and to New Zealand and watch the high lead and shovel logging crews.  Thats quiet a different style of logging. 
Shovel logging has also taken hold in the swamps of the Southeast.  Timberjack introduced the 735 Shovel Loader that made many of the large swamps in the SE accessable.  This method is being used in some pine plantation harvesting on sensitive soils as well.  The logger will cut with a track cutter and throw the trees towards a central skid trail.  The shovel machine will travel out and build a mat with the felled timber.  Skidders with dual tire set-ups will drive out on this mat to the back side of the block and skid timber out to the landing on this mat.  The shovel travels back towards the landing taking up the timber road as it goes.  When the shovel reaches the landing, all the wood is gathered up and little ground disturbance has occured.  This method has enabled loggers to operate in wet conditions without damaging the soils that would otherwise have shut the crews down.

Scott

These track skidders from Cat have geen gaining a lot of popularity on the west coast over the past decade or two. Note the swing boom and the track extended to the rear.

(picture from Timber West Magazine)

timberjack240

that machine looks like a fun one to run and a beast wen it comes to pullin but...... you no wut would make it better.... the name TIMBERJACK 8) on the side instead of Cat  ;D just kiddin  ;D cats are ok

Scott

 Timberjack is the prefered skidder brand around here. I've seen a 230, 350, 380, 450C, 450B (2) and a 560 as well as a 1010 forwarder and a 230 forwarder. These machines have all worked within a 10 minute drive from my house over the past 6 years, the first 3 where on one of my dad's woodlots. If i were to buy a skidder for myself I'd prbably buy TJ. theryre cheaper to buy than a Cat or Deere and the parts are cheaper/ easier to find. If I had more money or if i had a company I'd go Cat or Deere though.
Cat is my prefered brand for most heavy equipment (especially for dozers) followed closely by Deere.     8)

Tillaway

There are some 527 and 517 cats used around here set up just like the pictures.  I have one sale now where the 527 is parked and only used to water bar and spead rock for some spur roads.  They shovel logged all the ground they could have used the skidder on.  They may have used the skidder to "swing" out some right of way wood.  I need to start packing my camera.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

CosmoPack

On the brand issue - remember that the Timberjack machines produced today are Deere machines painted green.  Deere bought TJ a couple of years ago and changed the product line.  The Prentice 490/CTR 950 skidders are based on the 460C Timberjack using a Dana Torque Converter transmission and Dana outboard planetary axles.  I also believe that Ranger uses similar components in new machines produced today.  Komatsu has made a deal with Allied to produce a Komatsu labeled skidder for their distribution that may be introduced at the Oregon Logging Confrence.

Model comparisons -
Deere                    TJ                    Cat             Prentice/CTR
548G-III               360D
648G-III               460D                525B          490/950
748G-III               560D                535B          Coming Soon!
848G-III               660D                545B

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