Proofs of Concept

[EOTE]

In my professional career, I was an enterprise software architect.  A common practice was to build a proof of concept for the application we were building and use it as the "foundation" of the main development effort.

In the same vein, when I retired, I continue to use the proof of concept to try out ideas that I will need in constructing our retirement home.  While I have done several proofs of concept already (such as shiplap for my sawmill house roof to develop the production process) I decided to start this thread to share my proofs of concept as well as others who want to share theirs.

The current proof of concept is to develop the process of creating T & G sub-flooring.  However, I wanted to do something that I can use besides a couple of boards.  The T & G process I set up is using my router/router table and the new router bits I got and power-feeding boards through  to make the T & G joints.  While the actual sub-flooring will be 5/4", I used some interesting blue-stained and pitchey 4/4" boards I found and set aside from my shiplap process to create a counter top to replace the sagging one in the barn.  Since I don't have a jointer, I chose to use my Dewalt Track Saw to true one edge before final sizing on the table saw.  I will probably use the same process for the sub-flooring.  Although I know it will be a lot of extra steps in the process, the track saw can produce perfectly straight edges up to 12' in length.  I don't savor the idea of having to do this for 1,500 board feet but it is the best process I could come up with for the equipment at hand.

So the process I ended up with is:
Each step requires feeding the whole lot of boards through each step (approximately 300 boards).
1. Size the 5/4" boards to length on my compound miter saw production line - depending on the rough boards, 4', 6', 8', 10, or 12' final length.  Length is determined by how much warpage the board has or if there are knots or defects that have to be removed.  Beginning rough length is 12'-4".  Sizing also squares up the ends.
2. Plane the boards to thickness.  Generally I can do this in two passes, one per side.
3. True one edge of the board with the Track Saw.
4. Size the width of board on the Table Saw.
5. Cut tongue on router table.
6. Cut groove on router table.

I tested the process with 5 - 4/4" x 8" x 8' boards.

Once I tested the process, I glued up the test boards into this counter top.  After glue up, I cut the counter top to final length.



 

I decided to use a clear glossy polyurethane finish for the wood.  Probably not the best choice for a counter top but the idea was more to protect the wood from additional staining than to create a rock hard surface.  The camera doesn't do the wood justice (looks washed out).




 

Here is the counter top waiting to dry after the polyurethane application.  This photo does a better job of showing the true color of the wood.





Besides developing the production process for the T & G lumber, it gave me an opportunity to hone some of my finer woodworking skills in making a cabinet grade counter top.

[low_48]

If you are going to use the countertop make sure you put as many coats of finish on the bottom of the countertop as you did the top. Good to put a coat on top, then fairly quickly put a coat on the bottom. When you mount it, you can screw through small holes in the back of the cabinets, but only through slots in the front. Both of these address the seasonal expansion and contraction of wood in it's width. 

[Don P]

I usually plane first then chop, if there is snipe you can save a little more length that way.
I don't have a track saw or jointer. If good is good enough I'll set a long straight board along the fence on the tablesaw. If it needs real edge jointing I'll use a long router table with the infeed fence set about 1/8" behind and parallel with the outfeed. That will make glue joint quality edges. Just more ways to skin the cat.

[Dakota]

I did the whole inside of my cabin with T&G pine. After the boards had air dried for a year, I used my Lucas sawmill to put two straight edges on the boards.  I was thinking you could use your LT 40 to put an edge on your boards a lot faster than a track saw.  Help me understand why that isn't a good idea.

[EOTE]

I did the whole inside of my cabin with T&G pine. After the boards had air dried for a year, I used my Lucas sawmill to put two straight edges on the boards.  I was thinking you could use your LT 40 to put an edge on your boards a lot faster than a track saw.  Help me understand why that isn't a good idea.

Actually, I hadn't thought about using my LT40 for truing the edge of the boards...It sounds like a great idea that I will have to try.  I could probably do a dozen at a time and save the really bad ones for the track saw.  I probably could do that before sizing to length as well.
Thank you for the suggestion.

[alan gage]

I recently used my track saw to straight line about 1500bf of rough sawn hardwood after it came out of the planer. It wasn't near as bad as I thought it would be.

I thought about using my mill but it was winter and the mill was tucked away. Also, the mill wouldn't give what I consider to be a usable cut edge in my situation (butted together for wall paneling) so even after straight lining on the mill it would have meant an extra pass through the rip saw to get two clean edges. The track saw however did leave a clean and perfectly square edge so it just took one trip through the rip saw to get to final dimension.

I connected a shop vac and dust deputy to the track saw and collected about 50 gallons of sawdust in the process.

Nice looking counter.

Alan

[EOTE]

I see a possibility of using the LT40 to straight cut one edge but in thinking about how rough the saw blades leave lumber, I can think of only two options...first rely on the track saw  which leaves an incredibly smooth edge or, second, find a saw blade for typical vertical woodworking band saws that would fit the LT 40.  A 1-1/2" blade 158" with a fine tooth edge might be an option but would require some testing.  

Where I am making the T & G for flooring, I definitely want a smooth fine edge that will not leave gaps.  

I already have a known where I set up my track saw on my big-as_ table and can process boards one after another.  With only 300 boards to do, it might take a couple of days, but I would probably spend that looking for a suitable band saw blade and testing it with unknown results.

[alan gage]

The problem I see with the sawmill in this application, even with a smoother cutting blade, is ensuring that all the board edges are cut at a perfect 90 and also getting a perfectly straight cut with no waves. Anytime I've used my sawmill to straight line boards they come out straight enough for construction purposes or for running through a table saw but if I check them with a long straight edge (track saw rail) I usually find slight humps and dips that wouldn't look good if you were butting the edges together straight off the mill.

After reading Yellowhammer's track saw posts about using a piece of construction foam under the boards I tried that and found it worked great. Absolutely no slippage. Knowing I was going to be doing so much ripping I bought a dedicated rip blade for my track saw. It cut noticeably easier than the standard blade that came with the saw when ripping.

Alan

[luap]

I agree with Don P, Cut to length after planing, maybe even after the T&G operation. any tear out from grain imperfections, drying defect or whatever can be eliminated. My T&G projects were always done with random length boards so you really have many options for trimming out defects. I always did an over run of 10% to ensure enough. Any extra always seemed to get used somewhere. 

[EOTE]

Thank you all for your valuable input on the possible variations to the T & G process.  

I checked my board inventory and have 600 boards available to run through this process.  The plans call for 2,550 square feet of sub-flooring which would be approximately 425 boards if they are sized to a final width of 7" and actual 6 1/2" installed width.

My original thought on sizing the boards first is to allow me to take boards with a large crook and resize them into shorter lengths of either 4', 6', 8', or 10'.  That way when I cut the boards with the track saw, I won't lose more than about a quarter of an inch in width.  Because of the 24" between centers on the floor joists, I want to keep the lengths in multiples of 2' and the final width of the boards at 7".  The unsized boards are all between 12'-2" and 12'-4".  In this step I can also remove any major defects such as large knots, splits, etc.

My second thought on the order of steps in the process stem mainly from the layout of my production lines.  I have three parallel production lines in my barn: sizing, planing, and sawing/routing with space enough for a 4' x 12' lumber stack footprint between lines.  I would have to set up my track saw outside under the awning as a separate production line.  During each process, I need two lumber stack footprints, one for raw and one for step finished.

So the workflow would follow this route...The rough lumber is brought in on stickered pallets from the drying house to the awning outside the barn.  From there, the boards would go through the sizing line and they would be stacked next to the planer.  The boards would then be fed into the planer for the first side, stacked between the planer and the table saw, and run through for the second side after which they would be stacked outside under the awning to be trued on the track saw.  After the first side is cut on the track saw, they would be stacked again inside the barn next to the table saw for the final width cut.  After the final width cut, they would then be stacked on the other side of the table saw for the T & G  steps which require two passes through the router (on the table saw extension).  After the T & G passes, they would be stacked and palletized outside under the awning.  Because of the limitations of the production lines, the boards need to be processed as a whole before moving to the next step.  Processing as a whole also allows me to minimize the footprint of the stacks of boards between steps.

Process steps:
1. Size the 5/4" boards to length, squaring up the ends, minimizing crook (dividing the boards up into lengths of 4' to 12' in multiples of 2 feet), and removing large defects.
2. Plane the boards to thickness, two passes, one per side.
3. True one edge of the board with the Track Saw.
4. Final width sizing of board on the Table Saw.
5. Cut tongue on router table.
6. Cut groove on router table.
7. Palletize finished boards and store until needed.

The process requires a lot of handling and is pretty labor intensive.  From previous experience, the sizing step takes about two days (300 boards per day).  The planing will also take about two days and I am guessing from my test run, the process of truing the board to width will probably take about 4 days.  The T & G process on the router will also be fairly slow with an estimate of 4 days.  So all total, it will probably take 12 man days.  That's a pretty good physical fitness program.  Now, if I could only market this as a new fangled "workman's gym", I could charge people to come and do my work for me.   

[Gary_C]

Are you going to dead stack between each step and how long will the palletized wood sit between steps? Sometimes even a short time in a dead stack can cause some movement because of one side or edge exposure after processing.

[EOTE]

Are you going to dead stack between each step and how long will the palletized wood sit between steps? Sometimes even a short time in a dead stack can cause some movement because of one side or edge exposure after processing.

Unfortunately, because I am a one man band when it comes to building this house (with my wife helping on the weekends) my time is split between different tasks, like right now I am focused on putting in the concrete forms for the house pad.  That relegates work like making the T & G sub-flooring to a "rainy day" task.  Also, as you notice the number of man days needed to do this work, it would take approximately 2 weeks to complete from start to finish...toss in my other tasks and this could be drawn out over a couple of months.  So realistically the wood is going to spend the majority of its time in dead stacks.  It's something I plan for by having an overage of materials.  So far this strategy works pretty well as I have followed this throughout making 6,000 board feet of shiplap.  Once the T & G process is completed, I palletize the wood, band it and cover it with plastic until needed.  It will be stored back out in the drying house until it is needed.
Here are some of my pallets of shiplap after processing.



 

[Dakota]

Concerning steps 5 & 6(T&G).  When doing the interior T&G in my cabin, I quickly found out that pushing the stock through the shaper(router in your case) was really labor intensive.  I bit the bullet and invested in a power feeder.  What a game changer!  With the job ahead of you, you might think about getting one.  This is the one I bought:

Shop Tools and Machinery at Grizzly.com

[EOTE]

Concerning steps 5 & 6(T&G).  When doing the interior T&G in my cabin, I quickly found out that pushing the stock through the shaper(router in your case) was really labor intensive.  I bit the bullet and invested in a power feeder.  What a game changer!  With the job ahead of you, you might think about getting one.  This is the one I bought:

Shop Tools and Machinery at Grizzly.com

It is a great idea.  I actually did it after the first day of feeding boards through the table saw for shiplap.
I bought the Powermatic power feeder and mounted it on my Grizzly table saw.  I mounted it in a way that I can use it also on the router table extension.



 

[Dakota]

That is a serious power feeder!

[EOTE]

That is a serious power feeder!

When I looked at power feeders, I didn't want to be disappointed by one that only worked in some situations.  It had to be powerful enough to feed all my boards for shiplap and T & G.  I wasn't disappointed and the couple hundred extra bucks was worth every penny.  I chose a 1 hp single phase feeder.  

I can feed 1" x 8" x 12' boards for shiplap at 108 fpm through the table saw and T & G at 13, 36, and 43 depending on the load on the router.  It can handle hard and softwoods and the speed can be adjusted to the load on the saw or router.

When it is dialed in, it can handle just about anything I can throw at it.  A big plus it that it also keeps my hands away from the saw blades so its less anxiety about keeping all 10 fingers intact.

It took a while to decide where to mount it as I didn't want restrict the saw or router's use.  Currently it is mounted where I can feed through the saw or the router without problems.

I have a video of the power feeder running 6" shiplap at Powermatic PF41

[Dakota]

Wow, that thing really feeds in a hurry.  If you had some help, you could put an edge on your T&G stock in no time.

[Hilltop366]

Now if one could do the final pass on the second side on the planer and run two routers for the T&G at the same time you could do 3 operations in one pass. 

[EOTE]

Wow, that thing really feeds in a hurry.  If you had some help, you could put an edge on your T&G stock in no time.

I hate the thought of feeding each board through the router 3 times.  Hilltop had a great idea of having 2 routers on the exit side of the planer to do the T & G.  If it were only that easy to set it up.  Unfortunately, I would be long done with making the T & G in the traditional way before I finished fabrication on the 2 routers idea.
I will just have to bite the bullet and handle each boards multiple times...in fact so many times I will be on a first name basis with each board.  "Hi Wane,  haven't seen you for a while.  Oh hey, there's Crook again.  He looks pretty straight after his encounter with the track saw."

[EOTE]

3. True one edge of the board with the Track Saw.

Today, I wanted to do a more serious test of the process as I had 30 - 2" x 6" x 12's that needed straight sides. I decided to test the track saw part of the process on the 30 boards.  I got through 23 boards and the saw decided to take up smoking.   Needless to say it couldn't finish the 23rd board.

That brought into focus the weakness of this process considering that I have approximately 700 boards to process into T&G.  So now I need to come up with a replacement of this step.  One thought is to construct a 24' long rip fence for my table saw using 2-1/2" x 2" x 1/4" architectural grade aluminum angle.  Using my skate wheel conveyors on infeed and outfeed to support the extended rip fence.  Cost would be about $100 bucks.  This would allow the boards to remain against the fence for the first truing cut.

Any thoughts that FF members have that would work would be greatly appreciated.

[Don P]

I worked in a small cabinet/millwork shop running the rough end. They had blown the budget buying a newfangled (at the time) throughfeed molder and were strapped for straightlining upstream.

They had an old ripsaw with a feed. We set up a roller table in line front and rear. in between rollers nearish the ends of each section there was a vertical pivot post. Across which there was a crossarm drilled center and set down on the pivots. A piece of flat stock 20' long pivoted from each end of the crossarms which gave me a quickly moveable fence. All this was set up so I could get the fence close to the blade but could not run the fence into it, max rip width was around 1'. Hanging from the infeed roller table were a series of drop in plywood blocks that dropped between the pieces of flat stock setting the fence width from the blade. Not elegant but it worked for a couple of years till we paid off the molder and got a SLR.

Before you give up on the tracksaw, measure from blade to guide front and rear, was the saw tracking straight or was it having to cut in a bind? Only other thought is a dull blade. If a worm drive will bolt up they have more oomph.

[EOTE]

I decided to create a rip fence for my table saw that allows me to rip 12' boards and true the edges.  If a board is bowed or has some waves in it on the edges, I can put the edge of the board against the rip fence and the power feeder will maintain steady pressure on the board against the rip fence for the full 12' cut.

Because of the length of the rip fence (26'), I am fabricating stabilizers on my skate wheel conveyors (infeed and outfeed) to hold the rip fence stable while in use.

This idea is to replace the fried track saw.  It also will eliminate unnecessary board handling inherent with the track saw.





I use the same clamps that I use for my sacrificial fence to clamp the rip fence to the saw's existing rip fence.  To help the clamps hold the aluminum, I cut a 4' piece of wood to the interior dimensions of the aluminum tube and inserted it to the point where I drilled the holes for the clamps.  The new rip fence is 1-1/2" x 3" extruded aluminum tube.  Very light and resistant to bending and sagging.  


 



I am going to try it out on a batch of boards as I hope this is a better solution for truing up the boards I am making T&G out of.

[alan gage]

That's impressive. It should make things go smoothly if it works as anticipated.

Sorry to hear your track saw pooped out. If I remember correctly you had a Dewalt or Makita, correct? I'm glad I ended up going with the larger offering from Festool. The real reason I went with it was for the extra depth of cut but I also came to appreciate the extra power when cutting through hardwoods. A few times I spent 2-3 hours straight lining non-stop with no complaints from the saw. Cut a lot of 2x material with it too.

Best of luck!

Alan

[EOTE]

That's impressive. It should make things go smoothly if it works as anticipated.

Sorry to hear your track saw pooped out. If I remember correctly you had a Dewalt or Makita, correct? I'm glad I ended up going with the larger offering from Festool. The real reason I went with it was for the extra depth of cut but I also came to appreciate the extra power when cutting through hardwoods. A few times I spent 2-3 hours straight lining non-stop with no complaints from the saw. Cut a lot of 2x material with it too.

Best of luck!

Alan

I honestly wish I had gone with the Festool.  I had the DeWalt track saw but lately I haven't been having any luck with the brand.  Burned up a router on some fairly easy stuff and now this track saw after only 23 2x6's.  I guess you get what you paid for.
I tried out my super long rip fence on a warped and bowed 2 x 6.  I was absolutely amazed that it cut off the side perfectly straight.  One more pass and it was a perfect 5" wide and the edges were as straight as my aluminum straight edges.   This will really help out the T&G processing.

[Walnut Beast]

That's impressive. It should make things go smoothly if it works as anticipated.

Sorry to hear your track saw pooped out. If I remember correctly you had a Dewalt or Makita, correct? I'm glad I ended up going with the larger offering from Festool. The real reason I went with it was for the extra depth of cut but I also came to appreciate the extra power when cutting through hardwoods. A few times I spent 2-3 hours straight lining non-stop with no complaints from the saw. Cut a lot of 2x material with it too.

Best of luck!

Alan

I honestly wish I had gone with the Festool.  I had the DeWalt track saw but lately I haven't been having any luck with the brand.  Burned up a router on some fairly easy stuff and now this track saw after only 23 2x6's.  I guess you get what you paid for.
I tried out my super long rip fence on a warped and bowed 2 x 6.  I was absolutely amazed that it cut off the side perfectly straight.  One more pass and it was a perfect 5" wide and the edges were as straight as my aluminum straight edges.   This will really help out the T&G processing.

If you get a Festool track saw you won't be disappointed. You probably wouldn't use your table saw as much. The tracks come in various lengths and can be put together. The only downside is it's so darn expensive and then you want more of the Festool stuff 😂