I did a quick search for Beech Russ and didn't find much but these guys.
http://www.genemco.com/acatalog/Equipment_Catalog_Vacuum_Pumps_90.html
Sure is a lot of used vac pumps out there.
If the Beech Russ will pull vac, it will work.
Here she is. Ain't she a Beauty ???
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/FDHkiln1.jpg)
NOW, how do we convert this thing to a wood dryin, board spittin, money makin piece of machinery ??? ??? 8) ;D ;D ;D
Fla._Deadheader,
How big is the tank? Needs a little paint to make it a beauty. :D :D :D :D
She's 40" across and 14 foots long.
If we paint it, them code-enforcin hound dogs will find it. This-a-way, they expect it to be UNused. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
is it a bomb?
just had to ask, you did say wood splittin
Harold
1000 gal. ought ta do it eh? When ya gona start sucking the juice outa those cypress trees?
Gunna use vac or dh ?
RED, that was S-P-I-T-T-I-N ;D :D :D :D
VAC all the way, according to Den ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
:D
sorry, meant cannon.
:D
cool 8)
I'll do an estimate of how much 12' lumber might be loaded into the 'beauty' and do a guesstimate of vac pump size. and you probably know how a couple pieces of angle, with one flat side up, can make a track in cylinder. And we can talk about the heating system. Maybe I can do a really good deal for you on a controller. yep. I'm excited. :D
Herold you's as lucky as a swamp dog with water wings. I'm envious now. Get that thing up and running and I'm coming down to copy it. If you need any relays, transforners, switchs, magnetic starters, fuses and holders let me know. I've collected a whole shelf full of junk, ah, that is good use electrical components. Got a numbers of motors also.
Good Luck with the construction and post pic along the way.
Lets see where did I pass that big propane tank last?
Ole Jason sent me some sorta elec-tronical contrapshun fer controllin somethin ??? ??? ???
Ain't had time to un-wrap the package yet. I gotta send him some shippin funds afore he confiscates the thingy ;D :D
THANKS, Jason. Does it werk ??? :D :D :D :D :D :D
Den, I got it figgered that around 850-900 bd/ft would fit in that tank. Have to make some MIGHTY skinny duct work for the air circulation dealy.
The pressure treatment plant in Deland uses a series of tanks that are about the same diameter, only LONGER. The lumber that we sawed for the campground owner was tight bundled at 30" square and 16' long. That's 1200 bd/ft per bundle, no stickers.
Fl,
The last time I used that Keyence PLC it worked fine. I also sent you a programming guide and user manual. I believe it has six inputs and four outputs. Should be enough to get you going on a project like that. It is also expandable with extra input and output modules availble. I have no idea on what those cost though. Keyence still makes that PLC so it should be easy to find out costs on add on stuff.
I'll send you an IM on the shipping cost.
Jason
Fl
Be careful with that open frame 24 VDC power supply I sent you with the PLC. If you grab it while plugged in it will bite back ;D :o :-/
It should be fairly straight forward to program :P
Remember it is 24 VDC inputs and 24 VDCoutputs so applying 110V to the input/output will let out the magic smoke that makes it work.
Jason
:o :o I seen that smoke before. Yer absitively right, it won't work if ya let that smoke out ;) ;D :D :D :D
aw Jason! Are we going to make him face the agravation of a PLC? :D Can't I just send him a loop controller that will run on anything from 90 to 264 volts, has relay outputs and only requires 3 connections for the RTD, 2 for power and 2 for the relay? I mean, he makes 7 connections and flips the on switch and it's done and runnin'. It tells him the temperature (right out of the box) and he pushes an up arrow or a down arrow to move the setpoint up or down. He's going to have enough of a challenge without being bored to death with a programming manual.
You must be a little geeky! :D :D :D
Den,
The open frame power supply is good for 110 and 220V. Just have to reconfigure the input in the primary of the transformer. ;D ;D
Ya, the programming may be a hurdle at first but one you get the hang if it pretty much falls together.
I have moved on to microcontrollers like the PIC16F877 that is why the PLC was collecting dust in my desk drawer.
Jason
Actually, he will eventually need a PLC to dump water and calculate MC and drying rate. That will be way down the road.
FD,
If you did decide to go this route. Why couldn't you weld pipe external of the tank for duct. Say 6 or 8" would do and save all the inside space. You got to be welding and cutting anyway.
FD.
Paint it blue!Den likes blue.
Cut both ends.Easier to make repairs.Trust me on this.
Mike.
External pipe might work. I was concerned about the fan for sealing the duct. Wouldn't the fan be subjected to extreme conditions ??? How would you seal the wires leading to the fan, OR, how would you seal the fan itself??? No fan ???
Flanges would be my choice for connecting the duct to the tank. ???
My BIG question, is, where do you get a gasket big enough to seal the door(s) ???
To get wires through a chamber, I run them through a 1/2" x 4" SS nipple. Temporarily wrap electrical tape tight around one end. Put the nipple in a vice with the taped end down and fill it full of potting epoxy. When the epoxy is hard, take the tape off and thread it into a fitting welded into the chamber.
Flanges are good, tight fittings.
To make a door seal, I use half-round neoprene extrusion. One flange remains flat but the other needs to have a channel configured to hold the neoprene. With my square or rectangular doors, strips of SS sheet do the job. Round is more difficult but I have a customer who managed it on two cylinders. Mike's cylinders use hydraulic hose with rope inside to keep it from getting flattened. The neoprene works a lot better.
RE: Mike's mention of blue
I 'introduced' his company to using PVC pipe for cooling water and vacuum. It's so easy to change design or make repairs to PVC. One time I walked in and found that they didn't like the look of the plastic so they painted it all blue. :( No more easy repairs. You had to sand the DanG paint off to do any gluing.
I used to use the hose/rope compo but the seal didnt last long.
I found a gum rubber tupeing from Mcmaster Carr that works a lot better.Its pretty cheap,easy to put on and last forever.
I can do one of my kiln doors for under $160.
We painted the outside PVC for uv ray protection.
The inside PVC got painted because I think the RF operator just got bored.Old#22 must have been running good that night! :D
How do you join the ends to prevent leaking ???
A little silicon rubber to get a seal. Once it's sealed, atmospheric pressure will push the door down very hard which reminds me, no hinges unless they have slots that allow the door to move toward and away from the chamber.
Already figgered on the door movin in-out before opening or closing.
I was maybe thinkin about welding the flange to the END of the tank material, and then, putting a split gasket over the edge of the domed end door ??? That would mash it against the flange, and there would be no need to groove one side of a flange ???
I think the gasket would get cut in half but that's an interesting idea. I wonder if you could put flanges on both pieces with a gasket around the edge of one. Actually, if you used regular pipe flanges, you could use a regular flange gasket. I would guess that you would bolt the flanges together while welding to assure a perfect mate of the surfaces.
Den, I just had another crazy thought. ::) Since you don't use the vac pump, the expensive part, could you use one pump to operate 2 chambers? The cycling times would have to be coordinated, and it might slow down each individual chamber, but that shouldn't be a problem. ???
VacuTherm sold two chambers and switched them back and forth.
More later. I'm busy as the dickens
FL,
To keep it simple with a flange just use some t handle bolts and just clamp it tight like that. 6 or 8 of those should seal it up nice. Kinda like how the door seals on a Harvestor silo. The only problerm I see without having a groove for the seal it might get sucked in if it isn't glued down well.
Jason
A few months ago I lost a vac pump and was told the wait for a new pump was 3 weeks.I piped over from one kiln to the other with 3" pvc.No Den.Its still white.It worked but I dont cycle my CP.
If your door seal is going to come into contact with a flat surface put a little film of greese around the frame.
My doors are grooved so I buy the gum rubber just a tad bigger and work it into place with a rubber mallet.I can change a seal in about a half hour.
As I was saying, VacuTherm used two chambers. Instead of totally losing the vacuum in one chamber, you could connect the two to pull some air out of the one that was going into the vac cycle.
One of my customers has two WoodMizer VK2000's that I put on one big pump. clumsy system. I wouldn't want to do it again.
I've welded a couple wings on big nuts to make something like the tee-bolts. You only need four if everything is flat.
I like the 'D' shaped extrusion because it seals with a light touch. You don't need any messy grease.
Well, based on the name of this thread, I guess you don't need the pair of 22,000 gal alum. tanks I came across. :-/ ::)
Yesterday, I met with a company that is interested in drying to 13% for bending chair and table parts. Continuous vacuum serves well but what do you do to get the bent parts down to 6%. You can't put them back between plates. I started talking about 'discontinuous' vacuum drying. The potential customer says 'how about a hybrid vacuum kiln that could do both'. ??? hmmm ???
We stopped by the local Pressure Treatment Plant, on the way to the camp on Tuesday.
Talk about surprised. :o What we found was SOOOOOOOOOO DanG simple, we can't wait to get started.
The guy spent about 30 minutes talking to us, and showing us anything we asked about.
I got so many questions to ask, I don't know where to start.
The door system will be really simple. The clamping mechanism for the door will be very easy.
The track is pure simple. The seal will be easy.
Now, about the heat. Right now, any piece of metal, left laying in the sun, for 2 hours, will burn the skin, if you try to handle it. If we paint the tank flat black, would we need additional heat, if the temp inside is to be around 80° to 90° ?
According to the guy, he gets about 2 quarts of water from each batch of fresh Pine. His chamber is 48" dia. X 50 feet long, and he does 4 loads a day, of vacuum and then pressure treat. Soup's on and I'm starvin. Be back.
Need some input here ??? When figuring the cu/ft of the inside of the chamber, suppose you need a 30 CFM Vacuum pump. When you fill the chamber with wood, you reduce that cu/ft dimension by around 75%--80%. Would you still need the 30 CFM pump ???
If we install a piping system on the outside of the chamber, can we put a fan inside the piping and have a "Closed loop" air circulation system, using 3 or more ports entering the chamber ??? That may eliminate closing a valve to permit sealing of the chamber ???
Would you HAVE to bleed the chamber of water during a drying cycle, or, can it wait until the door is opened ???
Wouldn't glossey black get hotter ??? Can you adjust it so the sun hits it like a solar colector? Could you paint a five gal. buckett inside and out with differnt combinitons of paint set them in the sun an monitor inside temp to see what works best. I don't know zip just thinking first time this week 8)
Flat Black is best. The heat transfer through the metal should be more than adequate. Just need to hear from the Vac Guru ::) ::) ;)
10 4 Had the same idia long time ago good luck . May find in older post been waiting for a good inventor to work it out . Best way to hide a LP tank put a boat motor on it tell everone it's a sub not none around here 8)
Bought 2 Vacuum pumps today. What else do we need ???
(https://forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/Vacpump.jpg)
I've been out canoe/camping. 8)
The CFM of the pump isn't for evacuating the chamber. It's for vaporizing water. I'll use Red Oak as an example since I know those numbers well. If you have a 1000 bf of Red Oak, you have to pull out about 4.5 gallons of water to make it drop 1% MC per hour. One gallon of water makes about 1700 gallons of vapor. 1700 x 4.5 = 7650 gallons of vapor. Multiply 7650 x 0.13368 = 1023 cubic feet of vapor. Divide that by 60 minutes and you get 17 CFM.
I like the idea of the black chamber in Florida. heat all day and vac all night. :D
Think we can make it work ??? How about completely automatic, so we don't hafta sit and monitor the thing ??? ;D
No matter how you heat, we should have the Remote Temperature Device thingy (RTD) in the wood to turn on the vac when it's up to temperature and vac off when it's cooled down. Da loop controller (loop consist of temperature in and relay out, temperature in, relay out in a loop) can make it automatic. No good for turnin' goats into jerky, though. :D Need one of those mobile horse kilnin' trailers for that. :D :D :D :D
Gotcha ;) :D :D :D :D :D :D
Have you taken a look at the pic I posted of the Vac Pump I just bought. Might be too big, but, the price was right. Got a deal going with the "Teech". There were 2 units in the pkg I got. It's a Beach-Russ 4-D Pump. MIGHT get 4 of 'em ;D ;D
Ya better get ready to start makin this Kiln work. We will start cuttin and welding on the tank in 2 weeks. ;D ;D
Boy oh boy oh boy oh boy. We's gonna dry some wood 8)
FD you going to cut it with a smoke wrench ???
That's the onliest way to cut them Propaney Tanks. Makes life interesting :o ::) ::) ;D ;D
On some tanks if you can cut a small hole on the other end it helps. 8)
Hopefully pump co2 in to displace any remaining gasses before putting the fire to it.
There are 2--1½" outlets on the top of the tank. It has been empty and the holes open for quite a while. If the tank can breathe, the danger of blowing is greatly reduced. I will still pump engine exhaust into the tank before putting the torch to it.
Won'T start on it until the end of next week, at the earliest.
Yep that helps 8) It never hurts to plan for the unexpected . Mabey Dr Roof, Dr J and even Dr Buck's home phone numbers would be a comfort. Don't know what Dr Buck is a Dr of but I would cover all bases As I sm shure a fellow FF member would theat you right ;D Also have Bro Noble on stand by ??? All else fal's look under the post for services and call CFI :D :D Good luck JT
Fill it with water. Not nearly as exciting, but safer. The water should expel any lingering fumes.
I'd vote for exhaust fumes continusouly running in through a hose while cutting. That way no danger of water trapping any lingering fumes near the top, or in a pocket where it can't get out. Take lots and lots and lots and lots of water to fill er up too.
Bout a 1000 gallons ::) ::) ;)
:D :D :D
Yeah, and I think it might leak when you start to cut! ;D
FDH,
They look like rotary vane pumps like we use on the farm. Grab the shaft of the pump with the belt off. If you have any side to side play or up/down play thats bad. Replace the bearings before running it.
Remember you have that PLC with 6 inputs and 4 outputs to help automate things... You will need a loop controller for temperature as Den states. Omron has temp loop controllers for under 100 bux.
Let me know if I can help with any "glue logic" for your system. PIC's are cheap and can interface with lots of stuff.
Jason
Thanks Jason ;) ;)
Harold, I wish you all the luck, But if the thing blows up while you are cutting on it...Our # is 911... :o
Thanks Kev ::) ::)
Actually, these things are NOT as dangerous as people believe. The fumes are what ignite, and if there are openings in the tank,(which we have), the most that will happen is, WHOOSH, flame up. It's when you have a CLOSED container that gets ya in trouble.
My brother used to weld up gas tanks in cars and trucks. He would have the customer fill the tank absolutely full of gasoline. He would then top it off at his shop and weld up the pinhole. Gasoline does NOT burn, directly. The FUMES burn.
(this oughta get some discussion) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
We useta have a blacksmith shop here and the only way they would weld on a gas tank was to first run a vacuem pump in it for a day.
I was taught when cutting a propane tank to first run an air hose inside with no end on it. I guess the theory is to replace whatever is in there with fresh air. I have done a few and never had a problem.
F D you are right I was funning trying to get Ck and every one in on the fun. ;D I saw a tank sucked in once it had no vent . Talked to some guys that worked for Hultcher I think it was out of Dallas they do some cool stuff rail tank cars and such said they knew Red. Watch the joker behind you as he may set off a fire cracker to test your reflex's ;D Did you here about the man that jumped out the plane an his shute didn't open? as he was comming down he met a man going up he says know anything about parashuts? Other guy says no you know anything about gas stoves?( or cutting LP tanks)
:D :D :D :D
FD.
I have been reading this thread with much interest and must confess that I dont have a clue as to how you are going to vac dry with this set up.Are you planning on heating up the chamber during the day and then pulling a vacuum at night?
I am lost as to how you are going to control the heating only using the sun.Will the charge get to hot or not hot enough?
Are you still going to be under a vaccum during the heating or are you going to heat and than pull a vacuum?
Help me out here.Im lost.
Mike.
You think YOU'RE lost ??? :D :D :D
Did you ever fly at night, without lights or instruments, and try to land in a little clearing, surrounded by trees and ravines ??? :o ;D ;D That's how I feel.
The Vacuum Guru, Ole Den, is the one who will make this work. He will build the controller and program it for me.
There will be a heating device, for when it's needed, but, it gets DanG hot here, and anything out in the sun will get hot. The controller should handle that.
We have a special need to dry the wood slower than normal vacuum. If the wood cools during the night, it should help relax the drying stress?
Den has been in touch and feels that this system will work very well.
Just stay tuned, as I will, for further developments ::) ::) :D :D
Did I say it would work "very well"? ??? :D
Mike,
The idea is simple enough. We will circulate warm air to warm the wood. When the wood is wet, the air will be moist. We will monitor the temperature of the wood and when it's at it's set limit, we will start the vacuum. The evaporating water will cool the wood. When the wood is cooled to the bottom limit, the vac will shut down and reheating will begin.
Den
FDH: If you put a large pin on each end of the tank and mount it on post with bearings then if it don't work as a kiln you could make the worlds largest rotisserie chicken roster. :D 8) :D 8)
You probably already told us but what species are you trying to dry?
I never flew in the dark but I did drive a 1972 Nova 8 miles home in reverse on night.Darn thing wouldnt go forward?
Den.
Im under the impression that any wood dried in a discontinuse vac kiln needs to have lots and lots of air drying first.
Am I missing the big picture again?
Mike,
Nope. I work with a company that dries 3" RO newels from green. It takes them three times longer than my kilns (6 weeks) but the discontuous vacs do work. But I didn't say well! ;D
Den
Well........
Ok!
I am starting to understand FD's idea.I will just hang out and see what happens.
Im a vacuum plate kinda guy.
I will offer my 2.3 cents if I feel I have to.
One more thing FD.
If I make it down for the Pepsi 400 this year I will have to take a side trip and maybe have a cold one with ya!
Mike.
3Dogg, we are drying very wet Cypress and Heart Pine. We can't leave it out in a stack to air dry. Thieves, don'tcha know ::) >:(
We hope to put it directly into the kiln and let nature help us get the water out.
My feeling is that, the vacuum will lower the boiling poit of the water, and it mAY be slower than a conventional kiln, it will have less damaging impact to the wood, as in, degrade, splitting, warping, etc.
We are about 45 minutes from Daytona, to the camp. C'mon down. ;)
Den, it BETTER work VERY WELL . Yer starting to worry me :o ;D ;D :D :D :D
It's relative. A conventional kiln takes a year (I'm told) to dry 3" RO. A discontinuous vac kiln takes 6 weeks. A continuous vac kiln takes 2 weeks. So the discontinuous vac looks like a miracle to one guy and a snail to another. :D
FD.
I just dried 8000BFT of 8/4 RO in a vac kiln.
It took 404 hours to reach 6%.I know this sounds a little slow but the RO wasnt graded so I was taking my time to try and reduce degrade.What went in as "junk" came out as junk.The nice clear pieces look great.I cut a few 16 footers in half and found no HC,zero stress and no surface cracks.
I feel that if you have a good control system on your solar/propane vac kiln you should be able to dry your lumber with very little trouble.
Now Im attempting 8/4 Ash.
Thanks 3dogg. Sounds better than what Den was saying about "work very well" ::) ;D ;D ;D :D :D
Your welcome FD.
Vac drying is fairly easy if you have a good control system and know a little about the process.
Some species can be a bugger[White Oak].
What is the BMC of your Cypress?
??? ??? ??? BMC ??? ??? ???
Begining Moisture Content.
Knowing this will help determin how fast or slow you need to dry.
The BMC of Northen Red Oak is 70%.
OooHHOooooooo, THAT. ::) Sorry, I'm waitin for my list of Kiln vocabulary terms, from Den. ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
If Northern Red Oak is 70%, this Cypress is 250%. Several days after we haul it out of the river, it's still leaking water from it's pores ;D ;D ;D
It will be a slow drying process.Even for a vac kiln.
On average,how long has it been under water?
Are you the guy who sent some 100 year old Cypress up to PA to have it dried in a convental kiln?
I think it was near State Collage?
I know the wood came from Florida.
This stuff has been in the water for up to 100 yeras or so.
I never tried drying any of it, other than air drying and in our shop or my house attic.
Never sent any to be dried, anywhere.
Yep. BMC is one of my terms. So is 'rebake'. :D
We recently dried some reclaimed logs from a lake in Canada. Strange looking stuff.
http://www.pcspecialties.com/redoakwetHC.htm
I sanded the MC wafers. The middle 2 x 4 has more than 100 growth rings from corner to corner. All three logs were Red Oak.
Wait till I post some pics of one of the boards we just planed and put in the attic. NEVER seen the design before ;D
Den, Those hoses; are they the heating plates with hot water pumped through??? No stickers required ???
Yes. Red hose is hot water in. Blue hose is cool water out.
Hey Den.
Please tell me that aint your mini van! :D
She's a stainless steel minivan.
How strong a vacuum does one of these vacuum kilns get down to?
Well, I think we have been through this before but, since you are new here, and welcome to the forum, I'll skim over the subject again.
The weight of the air above you is enough to push a column of mercury about 760 mm high. When talking about pressure, one mm of Mercury is called one Torr.
When there is 760 Torr of pressure pushing liquid water together, you have to heat that water to about 212'F to get that liquid water to change to gas (water vapor).
If you reduce the pressure on the water, it takes less heat to make the water boil. If you reduce the pressure to 100 Torr, it will boil at about 126'F. If you reduce the pressure to 50 Torr, it will boil at about 100'F.
So, a 'strong vacuum' will pull the pressure down to something less than 50 Torr. Water will boil at the same temperature that the woods sees on a hot, summer day.
I may know somebody in your area of NY. Do you know a guy named Aaron? I may have the towns mixed up, though.
If we are talking about the same guy, Ben Aaron, he lives just down the road from me, less than a mile. I have seen his radio vacuum kiln. he didn't have an answer for me when I asked him about how high a vacuum it pulls. Ben is busy making maple baseball bats last I heard.
Okay, less than 50 torr. that works out to about 1 psi absolute.
I was getting confused on this issue of vacuum, when I looked at information from a google search. Some gages report vacuum as negative pressure which assumes atmospheric pressure is "0" pressure. Other gages measure absolute pressure so a pure vacuum would be "0". When people write stuff up and post it on the web they neglect to mention if the readings are absolute or relative. It would seem that with varying atmospheric pressure due to elevation and weather that absolute readings would be more prevalent.
oh well, I think I am on track now.
just wondering, has anybody out there with a vacuum kiln tried drying other things, like hay bales. I know wet hay can catch fire and burn your barn down, but baling wet means that you have less leaf shatter than when you bale dry hay. There are people that bale wet hay and then wrap the bales in plastic which makes haylage, a fermented product like corn silage. I wonder if there would be a way to bale wet hay, then dry it fast in a vacuum kiln, having the benefit of a dryer product with better nutrition. certainly a bale wouldn't be compressed so tight that a vacuum couldn't suck all the water out. It would make a good horse bale.
Hmmmm-m-m Pike's Peak might be a good place for a kiln operation, eh? :D
Getting the wood to the top may be a problem but a Zip line would get it down pretty quick and it would make a heck of a tourist ride in between loads. 8) :D
yep. Ben Aaron. I visited him about a year ago. The RF kiln was down and he was running a WoodMizer VK2000. He has a great place for a vacuum kiln. He has free cooling water from an artesian well. That lets him keep the WoodMizer supplied with fresh, cool water. Here's an interesting story.
http://mlbbetting.nextads.net/article7.htm
It's a very small world.
Vacuum, negative pressure, relative or absolute are confusing terms when trying to talk to people about vacuum drying. That's why I always talked about reduced pressure and it's measured with an absolute gauge.
I wonder if the discontinuous vac could dry hay?
You would dry the hay but then the bales would loosen up and fall apart. That would be a mess. Integrate the vac kiln on the baler and process it real time. You would be a rich man if you could get that to work. Farmers would then bale hay after cutting it with that new fangled machine and not have to rely on the weather man ;D
How about a vac grain dryer that does a batch. Preheat the grain and then suck a vac to get the moisture out. It would have to be somewhat fast and efficent.
Jason
I think I work with some people that had a vacuum pulled on there head :D
I heard a story one time of a guy who bought a RF/V kiln to dry wood.Found out that it didnt work all that great so he decided to try hay.I dont know if it worked for him or not but I once saw a picture of a square chamber loaded full of hay.
Once the hay dried out it would fall apart so they had the bales wraped in plastic.
I just dont know how they kept the whole mess from catching on fire.
interesting stuff about drying hay.
specifically I was thinking of drying alfalfa for the pet rabbit/guinea pig market. Horse people might like hay dried this way; good nutrition, dry enough that it would store for a long time without molds developing.
I figure it would be beneficial to be able to dry lots of different things in kiln of this sort.
How is that propane tank kiln coming along?
It's going fine. Still sittin in the weeds where we found it. ::) ::)
Time is of the essence. Don'T have any left over every day. ::)
Our office basement got flooded one time.A bunch of books and manuls got wet.These were important and we couldnt throw them away.What to do?
I took them up to my shop and stuck them on with a charge of 1.5x1.5 RO.Seven days later all of the books were dry and as good as new.
So yea.I do think vacuum drying can be used for other things.
Mike.
FLD.
I was gonna offer to come and help with the vac kiln but if you get me out on the boat you aint gonna get me off!Going after them sunken logs sounds way cool.
Dogg, I got more pics of retrievin them logs, this past week. I will post them later today on the "Day in the Swamp" topic, on the General board.
Hi!
I'm new to the forum, but I have been doing lots of research on vacuum kilns and found this to be a very informative and interesting forum.
Just wondering if anyone has finished building their vacuum kiln yet, and if so what kind of results they had?
Craig
Too many projects, not enough time. Got most of the parts to get 'er done, though. Glad ya tuned in here.
Hello! You discuss about an opportunity of vacuum to dry hay? I for a long time have lead(carried out) dryings vacuum sea kale, an onions(a bow), garlic, a potato, a forage for dogs. I wrote a site www.titbit.ru a forage for dogs, the vacuum perfectly dries. Only I have changed a design, fans are obligatory. I have reached(achieved) an output(exit) of water of 50 litres hour! A fire is not present, hot water of 95 degrees. Vacuum I do(make) 75 mm of a mercury column. Temperature of boiling 40C. Fiber does not perish, quality excellent(different). Sergey
http://www.titbit.ru/catalogue/beef.shtml I am sorry to look it is necessary. So the vacuum dryer dries.
Soooooooo hows that kiln workin for ya FDH? ???
Guess you ain't been paying attention, lately ??? ;D
After storms and death, we have not gotten anything done. :(
Well Deadhead,
there's still nothing I can do about the tragic loss of your wife but I'll daydream that I have time for a vacation in Florida and we'll throw that kiln together. Boy! that would be nice.
Den
No problemo Den. What day can I expect you ??? ;D
That WOOD be nice. ;) :) :)
Wuz stompin' around up at Mr. Hootie's place the other day. My 8 year old Grandson wanted to see some old Army Trucks. :)
Anyway, I ran across several old propane tanks that are approx. 3' diameter by 16' long. Perfect, or what? ;D
How many didja drag home ??? The one we have is 40" X 14', probably the same kinda tank. ;D 8)
Didn't get one. Didn't even get a price. When we got back to the office to leave, Mr. H. had gone to lunch. He tend's to be real proud of all them "mistakes" out there. ??? ::) Ya could probly have one custom made from stainless steel for less money. :D :D I have no idee what inspired him to get off the Hootiemobile for $1500. $5000 would have been more in line with his usual price structure.
I also found some nice steel pipe that would be ideal to make a "DanGDeadheader" loader for the "new" trailer. Gotta get back up there to ask about it.
He also has some arresting cables for an aircraft carrier, if anybody happens to be building one. :P ::) :D :D
Hey Den!
I'm new to this forum, but would it be possible to take a round tank that is made of 1/4" steel and weld a flange around each end? Then take and weld up a flat door like you use on your square kilns with lots of reinforcement. how much reinforcement would you need to have on a 40 or 50" round/flat door?
Thank you
Craig
From the ones I've seen, just cut the tank in ½ and add a ¼" plate, rolled into a tube to one end. That can be whatever length you want the kiln to be. Use the round end for the door. No bracing needed, and make the hinge out-away from the tank. That way the door swings OUT, then around, so it won't damage the seal when it swings.
It's pretty easy to build. The rounded ends allow for extra length of wood, also.
I was just wandering if it could be done without the rounded ends since it seems it is a little hard to come up with a cheap tank that has more than 36" dia in my area. I was wanting to use a kiln like this to dry large crotch pieces for table and desk tops and some of these can be 50 to 60" wide.
Craig
Craig, have ya ever eyeballed the Propane Tanks that are TRUCK mounted ??? I wood betcha that most salvage yards wood have 1, at least. With the cost of steel, it wood be hard to beat a truck tank. Got to be 7' across and 14' long ??? Probably be thicker, too, being as how it's used on the road. ;D
Ya know they have vacuum trucks with tanks just that size, only the end is a door already, and swings just like that. ;D
Hey Furby. You been thinkin ;D 8) That's probably a good tank, if you could find one.
Don't know how many of you guys have really digested what Den and Serg have stated. If water is put in a vacuum, it greatly lowers the temp that it will boil. That is why the Vacuum kiln will have less degrade. Lower temp to extract the moisture. Then, a quick rise in Temp, if ya need to set pitch or kill bugs.
We been thinkin about getting out of the water logging business. Ed can't run it himself, and we have tried for 2 years to hire someone.
We could sell the tank and Vacuum pump and tanks and stuff, and supply plans for making the Kiln, if someone wants to get a real deal. I plan on taking some of the stuff to CR, IF I make the move. A Vacuum kiln down there will revolutionize the Timber Industry. Just gotta find a tank. MUST be something hanging around one of the Port Towns.
The real benefit of vacuum drying comes from the fact that you can remove water vapor from beneath the surface instead of only from the surface.
Den, instead of a Florida vacation, are ya up for a Costa Rica Vacation ??? ??? ??? ;D ;D It stays between 68° to 80°. YEAR ROUND. ;D ;) :D :D
The weather up here is going down hill fast. CR sounds real good. :) 68 to 80, huh? A couple months ago I was sick of sweating. Do they have a trade wind like Hawaii?
YEW BETCHA. 8) ;D ;D ;D :D
Den
I found several places where I could get tanks that are rated for over 100 lbs pressure. The one I am interested in is 8' x 12', the end caps are 5/8" thick and the side walls are 1/2" thick. Would this work or would I have problems getting a seal on a door that size? What size pump would it take for a chamber that size?
Thank you
Craig
I also saw a different method for air movement on another website that might interest some of you. They use hot water coils down each side and a fan at each end faced so that they are blowing toward that same side of the chamber. The air meets in the middle and the back pressure from the fans causes the air to move through the stack where it can be pulled back through the fans from the other side. There is a panel on each end of the stack make sure that the air goes around and through the stack.
Craig,
I can't engineer a chamber from here but I can say that is thicker than many vacuum chambers. Also, a door that will hold pressure will hold vacuum because the vacuum pushes the door inward to make the seal.
Den
Deadheader,
That truck sold at auction last spring.
Could have left the tank on the truck and delivered the lumber straight from the kiln. ;) Or taken the tank off and had a real nice flat bed to haul with.
Watching the auction in a couple of weeks for another one. ;) ;)
Hey ya never tried to hire me............................
Sounds like fun, and with this white stuff moving in, I'm ready for a warmer climate. I figure I'm more likely to get hit with snow in Mich. then a hurricane, even in Florida. Although.............CR is sounding pretty good as well. ;D ;D ;D
Furby, There has been an open invite on the Forum for well over a year. Lots of folks say they will be down. No-one has made it here, yet.
Even tried to Hire the "Baby Logger" ??? No go- all talk ::) ::) ;D
FDH...
I made it by... ;D Well not much of a trip for me I guess huh?
Yeah, I guess you are right, you have been inviting us all down for a while.
Would probly head down this winter, but I can't afford to fix the truck. Been milking it along for over a year now. ::)
Took our visiting in-laws to the camp today, as we took the mill up there. Went out and got a couple of logs we knew were there. Ed got into the water, about chest deep. The in-laws could not see Ed's arms under the surface.
You guys DIVE in that water??? YOU'RE NUTZ ;D ;D ;D ;D
I guess I really don't blame y'all for not showing up. ::) We're NUTZ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I for one don't think you guys are NUTZ!
Maybe that just makes me NUTZ as well, but I really DO like the concept. I really hate to see ya give it up, but without actually seeing you all do it, I guess it's a hard call for me to understand what you have to do to make it work. ::)
Furby, I know Harold personally. HE'S NUTZ! ;D ;D Somehow, that don't keep him from being a fine feller, a great innovator and a hard worker, though. He ain't so NUTZ that he don't stay on the boat while pore ol' Ed goes into the cold water with the gators and snakes, though. :D :D :D
Is that why FDH has been wearing that ugly cammo hat ? Hiding from ED.... and here I thought he was just trying to get used to all that CR jungle.
QuoteHe ain't so NUTZ that he don't stay on the boat while pore ol' Ed goes into the cold water with the gators and snakes, though.
There is a difference between being NUTZ and being STUPID !
VA-Sawyer
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Ok. Problem with tuning in very very late, is that I have no idea of what it is exactly that you have. Is it an old oil tank? If so, do you know anyone in the Staunton, Charlottesville, lexington, Harrisonburg area of VA that wants one? I've got a 1000 gallon one. I have another question for you out there. I inherited a 30 foot greenhouse and wanted to dry wood in it. Any ideas? I have been using green poplar to build a barn/workshop but would like to use some of the wood for indoor shelving. Thanks, HB
old-hb, covered with black plastic, that would male a right smart collector. Check out to thread on Solar Kiln on this forum.
HB, we are discussing an old Propane Tank. It is ¼" thick steel, and should take a pretty good Vacuum pull, without collapsing. Wood in a Vacuum will dry without much degrade, due to the heat being lower while the wood is wet.
Thanks, It did look like a tank of some sort. In my mountain place, we had a 1000 gal. oil tank which only heated a run down boiler. I stopped using it four years ago and use propane instead. I'd love to get rid of the oil tank.
I've used green poplar to build me a workshop and carport but the mill which provides me with the wood (CHEAP) also has green ash, walnut, oak and occasionally cherry. I'd love to use that for some indoor projects but don't have a place to dry the wood. Always looking for some means of using the green wood. I'll try draping black plastic over my green house and maybe installing some fans to drive out the moisture.
FD, I know I read some place on here that you was scrounging looking around for parts to get that kiln made in CR. I don't have any leads for parts and such, but was wondering about some follow up on your progress. Be nice to set some of that Pilón you been sawing into it, eh? ;D 8)
SD, I located the perfect thing. Time, money, and too many projects are keeping me from proceeding. Fred and I talked about doing the Vacuum Kiln, but, we never got to it.
I sawed some Tuits the other day, Dead-header. I'll save you a few for your next trip. ;D
If you do, you better clean out that metal barn to store 'em in. 8) :D :D
Yes Tom those round Tuits is DanG handy things to have. :D
:D :D I didn't know what Tom was talking about 'til Leweee 'splaned it all. ;D