Milling 1 x 6's out of 18" dia log

[whittle1]

Could someone please show me the best way to get 1x6's out of a log?  I'm needing about 1500 bdft of 6"  tongue and groove boards. In the past I would break the log down to get the widest jacket boards I could. What I ran into today was I had some 10" wide kiln dried boards that I ripped a 5 1/2" board off of and had a 4" left. I planed them to 7/8 and I'm going to run thru my moulder to end up with  5 1/4 t&g. I didnt notice the 5 1/2 boards having any sweep and there mixed in with other boards that were cut down from boards that were 6 to 7" wide. However when I got ready to rip the 4" board to 3 1/2 they had a sweep that was better than an 1 1/2 over 10'. Just wondering If the wider jacket boards would do the same thing or if it was just because of the location of the pith in the wide boards.

[Southside]

Based on your description I am presuming that you had different grains across the face of those boards. ie Flat and say rift and or quarter and when you ripped them you ended up cutting through the flat grain, or leaving the lions share of it in the narrow board which would cause the crook that you describe since that grain pattern shrinks more than the others do.  As a 10" board it held together, but once that 4" had nothing holding it back the stress won over.  

Do you have any photos of the offending pieces? One of the tricks that helps to prevent this is to center the cathedrals or peaks in the lumber face that you cut flat sawn lumber so one side of the board isn't trying to pull the other over as it dries.  Another trick is to capture all of the same grain pattern into the single board, so all rift, quarter, or flat, but not half flat, half rift.  

[whittle1]

I don't have any pics but I will look at them too see if what you described is what happened. I was stacking different width boards in the same stack that turns into a pain when just wanting a particular size. If wanting to maximize yield out of a log I will at least stack in separate stacks in the future. At least then I won't be tempted to rip a wide board. 
Thanks for your reply

[Magicman]

The boards that should not crook are the pith centered 6" cant boards and the pith centered side boards.  Anything else is a sorta crap shoot with the off centered boards taking the pot.

[WELumberjack]

I'm interested in following this since I do most of my edging on the sawmill and don't have a 2-blade edger. And only 18 months experience on my LT-30.

@whittle1 to clarify, Are you speaking of hardwoods or softwoods?  Do you have a 2-blade edger? or do you edge on the sawmill?  Or since you're talking about boards that are kiln-dried and partially planed, do you have access to a straight-line ripsaw? or a table saw with a special sled to rip a straight edge off a crooked board to 6" or technically 5.5" wide, before putting them through your moulder? 

I think I understand MM when he talks about "pith centered" cant and jacketboards/sideboards, but what about the riftsawn end-grain pattern 2-5" boards that are edged off the wider side boards (10-16") if someone saws the 18"D log in the following pattern: 1) 6" wide opening face & saw 1" sideboards down to 3" above the pith; 2) 180 deg flip and saw resultant sideboards to 6" final cant width;  3) 90 deg turn and saw 6" pith-centered boards down to near the pith; 4) 180 deg flip and saw to a final dog-board containing the pith or discard a 4x6 around the pith. 

Are those 2-5" rift end-grain boards waste since they will potentially crook? or can they be used for something else?

Usually I finish edging all the sideboards and anything with wane while the log or even against the 6" cant when it's on the sawmill (before step #4/sawing face #4) and complete edging on the sawmill before moving on to the next log.  I usually edge all the sideboards to "optimized" widths if I don't have a specific cut list I am going for. Otherwise in this case, I would try to edge the jacketboards to 6" wide.  Sometimes I find it difficult to keep the cathedral of the flatsawn boards centered in the final board when edging multiple boards at once, but I work alone. I can see when working with 2 people, where a 2-blade edger is more precise for keeping the cathedral centered and optimizing efficiency in edging; but I don't have a 2-blade edger yet.

Searching elsewhere in FF, I found this thread from 2014 potentially relevant for an 18"D log. Sawing pattern for 14" to 20" diameter hardwood logs - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=75360.0  Reading through the tread, I don't think the OP question was exactly answered, but had a good discussion. I think it's somewhat relevant to yours.
Ben

[Magicman]

And then each log is an individual unto itself and sometime logs don't play fair.

[whittle1]

Welumberjack. You bring up a lot of points that I need to look into. I've had my mill for awhile but not that experienced. I've not cut to a cut list either and just tried to maximize yield. I think I will start cutting pine to 1" over and then edge on sawmill after dried.
I have a makita track saw with a 118" track that I use to get a straight side, Then to the table saw for final blank sizing 1/4" over finished board out of the Logosol PH 260 moulder. I have not been holding a consistent thickness on boards off the mill so next to the planer to get every board to 7/8. I have purchased a Setworks from Micron that I have not installed and hoping that tightens up my groups. I think for framing lumber edged off the mill should work fine. For flooring or T&G siding it needs straight lines or passed over jointer. The moulder supposedly will somewhat straighten a board if within 1/8 or the amount your taking off on first side head. I'll see how that goes once I get up and running. An edger would be a great addition but I don't see that anytime soon. I also have a foley belsaw that looks similar to a woodland mills planer that converts to a 3 blade edger. I may look into that, it has a 5hp motor and not sure that is enough for 3 blades. I will check out the thread you suggested. 
Thanks for your reply 

[WELumberjack]

@whittle1 It sounds like you have a number of things lined up with your inventory of machines and kiln to get boards milled/moulded/finished. I scanned through your prior posts since 2016 and you're ahead of me in the learning curve/lumber making process.  I'm still in my first 18 months of processing logs and in the air-drying phase when it comes to lumber. When I purchased my sawmill, a Timberking T-802 2-blade edger came with it and a Wisconsin VF4 engine, but they weren't setup together.  So far I haven't gotten very far in matching them together to get them functional; but that's on my "To-Do" list. See my gallery for a couple pics.  My edger would need to be run outdoors.

When you say your Foley Belsaw has a 5 hp motor for 3-blades, are you saying an electric motor?  I found this thread from 2010 - How much horsepower to run edger - https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=47603.0 - but in reading through it I thought all the discussion was regarding gas and diesel engines and not electric motors.

You say you've "not been holding a consistent thickness on boards off the mill..."  Are you saying the lack of setworks is the cause for the error? or something else? I liked seeing your kiln setup and progression through the years.
Ben

[beenthere]

WEL
Please put your "couple pics" in your post so we know what you want us to see. Thanks.

It's the Forestry Forum way. 

[WELumberjack]

@beenthere - My "couple of pics" of my edger are in a folder titled "Timberking T-802 Edger" in my gallery. If someone desires to look, they can easily click on my profile name and view my gallery or search the gallery for "T-802". I don't think they are relevant for posting in this thread, unless one desires to stray from Whittle1's original theme of discussing "milling 1x6s out of an 18" diameter log." I try not to cause thread-drift..., which I notice occurs on FF now and then...  Unless that's the Forestry Forum way...

I just uploaded a couple pictures to that folder in my gallery today, but they are better suited for a different thread focusing on old edgers or when I decide to start working on putting it together and need to ask other's advice on how to proceed.  I need to take a couple of better pictures of it to give more perspective at some point soon and then post them all in the relevant post.

[chet]

@WELumberjack  Directing people to your gallery is not allowed; if you are going to reference them, post them.  The galleries only purpose is to archive pics used in your posts.

[Don P]

The rule of thumb in the cabinet/furniture shops was 5 hp/blade for ripping operations. They were pretty high production operations so YMMV, in one shop we tried one and those guys burned up a belsaw before lunch. Young and dumb but willing  .

If it is nice wood I try to keep the board centered and take the edgings as waste/stickers. In pine I'll often take an off centered 1x6 and 1x4 if the log is one that just lays there. It is a risk and I might get 2 good boards or I might get 2 pallet pieces, that informs my next cut as to whether to play by the rules or feel lucky again.

[Magicman]

My goal is always to recover one good board rather than risking ruining two.  Experience has taught me to always saw from either the hump or horn faces and always center the pith within the cant or board as I described in Reply #3 above.

[whittle1]

My foley belsaw planer moulder is a 5hp electric. I don't know of a saw head that is offered for it so wondering if I can have a machine shop make me one. This is very early in my planning phase as I haven't even pulled the top off to see if there is room in between the feedrolls and bed plates to accommodate a saw. It has a shaft and saw attachment on the infeed but that setup would pull the pc thru the saw, just not sure if that would be very accurate and would probably require an already straight side to run against a fence. I got this idea from a post on the Woodland Mills convertible machine planer, moulder, saw and sander, all done by just changing out the shaft or so it looks. 
As far as inconsistent thickness that is totally on me not doing a good job of aligning the saw head to the scale. I could make that better by getting the pointer closer to the scale so that eye alignment when above or below the line wouldn't make as much difference. I know there are sawyers on here that get good results using the scale. I'm not talking much difference but when planning a 32nd in difference can mean your board hanging up or not. That is why I think the setworks will make a big difference for me.

[whittle1]

Sorry Correction the machine I've been referencing is not Woodland Mills it is a Woodmaster. Sorry for any confusion.  

[WELumberjack]

@Magicman, just a clarification for learning purposes: What do you mean by "always saw from either the hump or horn faces"? Using my example in my sawing pattern/description in reply #4, are you saying setup your opening face for sawing a log with sweep so that the hump or horn faces end up as the faces you are sawing in steps 3 & 4 of the procedure I described in reply #4? i.e. the faces from which you are getting your pith-centered boards out of the cant.

@whittle1 - I hope whenever you get your Micron setworks installed on your LT-40, it works great for you!! I have a '93 LT-30, so I'm lining up the pointer by eye and doing my best to have consistent thickness.

@chet - Here are the photos I referenced. But again, I don't think they were relevant to post in this thread, because this thread isn't really about edgers, but rather about milling 1x6's from an 18" diameter log. I'm not at the point where I'm ready to tackle powering my edger with the engine I described and asking people for advice.  But I uploaded these 3 photos to my gallery yesterday when I had remembered to do so via pictures on my computer, so that in the near future when I have a more complete/better set of pictures of my Timberking edger and engine to upload and post, I would post them and ask advice from others in a thread specifically about edgers.  Galleries have more purpose than just archiving posted pictures. I've learned plenty of things by looking at people's galleries and developing tips, tricks, and ideas for how to improve my sawmilling, handling of lumber and waste, improving efficiencies, and finding things to build or wish to buy someday.  Otherwise, I would just drag and paste from my phone to post a picture, and there would be no archive. I enjoy using the Forestry Forum Gallery; it keeps me organized.

[Magicman]

just a clarification for learning purposes: What do you mean by "always saw from either the hump or horn faces"?

I should have said that my final cant saw through will be from either the hump or horn face.

My sawing pattern is generally to lay the log on the sawmill bed with the horns toward the loader and the hump toward the side supports for the first face opening.  This 1st face opening also determines the cant size after any side lumber has been removed.  Turning 90° after each face opening and taking the cant to it's final width with the 3rd face opening.  This will put the hump up for the 4th face opening and saw through.

The resulting lumber may bow but it has a much less tendency to crook.  Take in consideration that the great majority of what I saw is framing lumber. etc. and bow is much more desirable than crook. 

Your cut list will determine how you should set your log up for the initial face opening, which to me, is the most important cut that I will make on any log.

[SawyerTed]

My sawing technique is much like Magicman's.  Generally, I saw framing for bow and hardwood furniture/cabinet lumber for crook.  Meaning, generally, the orientation of the original sweep is up/down for softwood and to the side in hardwood when taking the majority of boards.  

Ideally, neither happens but lumber is going to do what it does.  

[Magicman]

The absolute worse thing is to not pay attention to the log before you open a face and you will saw propellers.  

[Magicman]

Many if not most logs that have appreciable sweep also have an off center pith that generally follows the hump/horn orientation.  This may also be true with leaners   Limbs almost always have a very off center pith because they spend their entire life supporting an uneven load.  Simply stated, limbs ain't logs.

[SawyerTed]

customsawyer did an excellent video on just this very topic.  

https://youtu.be/o-NWrHhHGf4?si=2uZJy6Ku0uriqDfh

[WELumberjack]

Thanks Ted & Lynn, for clarifying the result of what you're sawing. At this point I'm sawing whatever I can get my hands on/whatever gets dropped off to me; both softwoods and hardwoods.  However, I prefer to not saw propellers/twisted boards at this point..., if I can help it.  And can improve my end results by keeping these things in mind.

In searching elsewhere in Forestry Forum on the subject I came across these 3 threads with comments discussing minimizing defects of cup vs crook (among other things):
1) https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=119195 - replies #85 & #88
2) https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=109134 - reply #87
3) https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=90483 - reply #4

I also read about a leaner WDH posted about back in 2015 with a very off-center pith. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=84976
I've seen Jake's video several times. Good to watch it again.

[SawyerTed]

USDA, the Forest Service and various universities publish papers on various forestry and lumber production topics.  If you haven't, it's worth doing some online research.  There's some interesting reading in those reports.

Here's one on improving yield in out of round hardwood logs. 

https://www.fs.usda.gov/nrs/pubs/gtr/gtr_nrs130.pdf

[WELumberjack]

Yes, I have read that very article before, and now have read it twice. I've downloaded to my computer a number of USDA/Forest Service sawing and drying related articles to my computer (including a number of them by Dr. Wengert) and am slowly working my way through them. While insightful, they are a bit drier content and (sometimes) more technical than what is found here on the forum. It just depends how you learn best and who you trust to give you that info/knowledge.  In response to rereading that article, I found the key sentence to be in the 2nd paragraph of the introduction, he mentioned the line "it must be stressed that lumber yield from a log is secondary to lumber quality." Meaning, sawing high-quality lumber is more important than greater yield (what MM referenced above - reply #12); whether in a high-production sawmill or a small-scale portable setup like mine

[SawyerTed]

It's all theoretical until the log is on the mill, then it gets real.  Experience does wonders to confirm theory.  

It's not until a man uses lumber he's cut and dried that the whole picture comes into focus.  It should be a requirement for a sawyer to use his lumber to build something every so often. 

[Magicman]

I have watched Jake's video several times and always glean something new/different from it.  Listen carefully to what he says as well as watching what he does.

Note that Jake is mostly Jake's customer.  He has the option to recover that 1" side lumber because he is also in the selling business. 

In my instance, I am sawing the customer's cut list, and if there is no 1" lumber on his list, I don't saw it.  The majority of my cut lists are for 2X4's and 2X6's and any side lumber that won't make the cut list makes stacking stickers.

I very seldom saw 1" lumber except for board & batten siding.

[Southside]

Lot of truth to what Ted says there.  Myself I started out as a guy who owned standing timber.  The most beautiful timber, clear, veneer logs, #1 everywhere, straight, defect free, money wood, real money wood. 

Then I started logging, turns out some of those trees bend when they hit the ground and stay like that, no other way to describe it.  That's OK, I can work around those bends and make perfect logs.  Not sure how it happens but defects always seem to be on the face that is in contact with the ground, but those are definitely straight logs, I mean they are laying on the ground so it's obvious.  

Well then I bought a polygraph machine  sawmill.  Turns out the structural steel frame on a sawmill is a lot straighter than the ground in the woods, that or those logs bent again on their own.  Either way I began to see there is "straight" and then there is "straight".  It's no matter, I is a sawyer and I can fix it.  See - a perfect board. 

Then I bought a kiln.  Did you know that grain matters?  Did you know that knots fall out? Did you know that straight, green, lumber from a bent log is lying to you?  In case you don't know - a kiln will educate you on all of these things and more.  

Well, I got a handle on the kiln / drying thing and I bought a 4 head moulder.  Look at the beginning of this post.  There is straight, and then there is moulder straight.  They are not the same....

I don't usually build things with my lumber, I am not a wood worker and something tells me that just like the game where a grown man chases a tiny ball around a perfectly good waste of pasture while driving an EV woodworking just might be a pain in the ice, so I am better off to quit while I am ahead.  

[Ianab]

Well then I bought a polygraph machine  sawmill.

Very true, I must remember that one. Logs can hide all sorts of secrets, some minor, and other times "game over" defects. 

As for the original question, maxing out the 6x1s from an 18" log?

A swing mill deals with logs slightly differently, as it's sawed in "layers". Usually you don't move the log, but you can cut a 1x6, or a 6x1 with each pass. So, assuming you want flat sawed, you would start by opening up the top of the log, and I'd maybe make some 1x1 stickers as I get rid of the taper and open a clear face. It's time consuming, but it's otherwise free stickers from what is otherwise firewood, so I generally make a few.  Once I have a clear face that's wide enough, I can get a 1" deep x 6" wide board, saw that. As you drop down each layer the face will get wider and you might recover some 1x4s and eventually get to 2 x 6" wide boards. You can adjust the exact cuts to avoid defects / keep knots centred in a board etc. 

Around that time you will get getting to ~3" from the pith. Now you do a 6" drop, so a 6x1 now. As you are at pith level, it will also be flat sawed. Run across the full layer like that, although you might get some rejects from around the pith depending on the species. (and what secrets you have persuaded the log to give up).

After that, just see what more you can recover from the lower 6", cut the same as the top section. 

Now for a band mill, my suggestion would be you take a similar approach. Saw off some 1" live edge from that top 1/3. Roll the log 180deg, and repeat. Now you have a 6" thick "live edge" cant. Stand that up and make 1" boards. Again, depending on "things" you may want to roll the log / cant a few more times if tension starts making the wood move. But the basic plan is the same. Then you edge the live edge flitches to recover as best you can. This is different from "grade" sawing, where you aim for the widest / clearest boards, and hence the best "value" from the log. 

Now if I want quarter sawed, I reverse the procedure. Open the top of the log, and cut a layer of 6" boards, that will have close to vertical grain. Then swap to horizontal cuts around the middle, and leave a good 6" to go vertical again. There is of course a bit of rift sawed from the corners, because boards are rectangles and logs are round(ish). Quarter sawing on a band mills is a bit more complicated / takes more time, but it's still worth doing for some logs (for stability or visual appearance). 

And of course sometimes your Lie Detector finds a bunch of ants have been having a party in the rotted out remains of the middle of the log, and you just have to deal with that as best you can. 

[whittle1]

Southside you just wrote my story. I had high winds take down 15 pine trees that I took to a local sawyer. When I went to pick up the lumber and asked when I could bring him the rest of the logs he said he was actually thinking of selling his mill. I had been wanting one for awhile and with a little sweet talking to the chief financial officer "wife" that's how I ended up with my mill. Replaced about every bearing, rewired and painted. It was amazing that it cut as good as it did for the shape it was in. It is a 94 LT40HD g24 that now cuts really well but I still have a lot to learn. I watched the video you linked and read the flyer on cutting patterns. Like you those straight a perfect trees turned out not to be so perfect. Maybe the ground does something to bend em up kind of like ground shrinkage on that trophy buck. So having a Sawmill and wanting to use your own wood naturally you need a Kiln then it does its magic and bends and bows those perfectly straight and flat boards. So now I got tired of handling each board 5 or 6 times using multiple machine's to make T&G siding and have bought a 4 head moulder. Wondering what evil it will now expose.

Anyway thanks for yours and everyone's replys. 

[oldgraysawyer]

Unfortunately for me we had an F0 or F1 tornado a few years ago and my sawmill building for the old circle mill that was about 70' x 90' to have room for everything was not only blown down but all mangled up. I'm able to salvage maybe 'bout a little less than half of the material but luckily my B20 was not in it. Not to mention the downed trees I'll need to saw up.

I had been searching for a mill since my father gave our mill away and a buddy of mine went hunting up north and saw it setting in a field uncovered. He stopped and inquired and it had been setting there since 2005 about 20 mile south of the big super lake. The guy told him he wanted to try and fix it up so he could recoup some of his investment but after he got the quotes he finally called my buddy and told me to come and get it so I made the deal with him and brought it down here and been slowly rebuilding and repairing the damage.