New Shank/Bit Instal Help?

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 01:03:13 PM

This is how my old shanks looked. I am specifically looking at the connection between the bit and the shank. That engagement looks pretty clean to me.

These new bits and shanks are not fitting as cleanly as the old ones.
Is the space between the bit and shank acceptable or not?
If not how do I correct the problem?
Thank
Charlie

captain_crunch · December 03, 2012, 01:08:45 PM

By no means an expert but that don't look like it will fly to me :P :P I would Email pic to these people for their opinion

mailto:info@menomineesaw.com

Jeff · December 03, 2012, 01:10:06 PM

That doesn't look right. Are you using a lubricant when you are installing your bits? It looks like they are going in hard, and the shanks are rotating out of the tooth rather than getting it to seat properly. I used rust reaper (Now blue creeper) when ever I changed teeth for a lubricant, to make things go together easier. Did you get the saw hammered? You should always get a saw re-tensioned when replacing the shanks.

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 01:10:55 PM

CC,
I will do that. I didn't think it was great myself. the old one were not that easy to remove but the new one seemed especially difficult to install even with the correct instal tool.
Charlie

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 01:13:19 PM

Jeff,
I did use some penetrating oil, as I put them in and yes they are going in hard. I stopped with the second one to see what suggestions you guys have and have already taken those 2 out.
I will be having the blade hammered next week.
Charlie

ALWOL · December 03, 2012, 01:24:40 PM

That is not the right bit for that socket. Look at where the base of the bit meets the socket. It MUST seat firmly in the socket without a gap, and still be flush at the tip of the socket. It may be possible the shank is correct, and will be fine with the proper bit, but that area does not look right either. I would double check the source of the new bits and shanks.

+1 on using a lube when installing the shanks. I always dip the shank in a pan of oil before install.

Alan

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 01:38:53 PM

ALWOL,
I ordered the bits and shanks together, I hope they sent the correct bits, but I do see what you are looking at. I will contact the company and see if they have some info!
Thanks

Ron Wenrich · December 03, 2012, 01:46:18 PM

Your tooth is sitting just a might bit high. I don't think it'll go much more without it slipping from the shank. I've had that problem from time to time. Do you seat your shanks after you install your tooth? Did the second tooth look like that? Simonds does have some quality issues.

I've used rust reaper in the past. Before that came out, I used to dip my shanks in diesel when I was installing them. Sloppy, but it works.

For new shank install, you should get it hammered, like said before. Was there any particular reason to put in new shanks?

beenthere · December 03, 2012, 01:47:30 PM

Send those same pics to the company and ask them for some clarification and suggestions. They will quickly see what you are up against and likely have the right bits on the way.

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 02:00:06 PM

Ron,
I was going to replace just the bits, and when I began to remove the shanks I noticed very fine cracks in the bottom of a few shanks, so I was concerned with metal fatigue and after taking them all out I found several had cracks on the bottom. The shoulders were in pretty good shape but, I didn't want to take the chance on the thing comming apart, in my opinion the cost is nonimal as apossed to my saftey.

Beenthere,
I just sent them the photos after talking to them on the phone should know something soon.
Thanks guys.

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 02:06:16 PM

Ron,
I already heard back and they said they had seen the problem before and it is a Simonds dimensional problem and would send me out a different brand today!
Charlie

ALWOL · December 03, 2012, 02:34:28 PM

I have had some "dimensional" problems with the Simonds bits also, but this is a rather serious problem. Sounds like they should be able to fix you up.

Alan

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 03:46:34 PM

Alwol,
I recieved another email from the company and they advised that the size "B" shanks has changed over the years and my blade is an older one. So we think the problem will be solved upon the arrival of the older sized b shank.

Does anyone have this type of historical information on saw milling available? I like the technical information from the past and in this case
it would have helped.
Charlie

ALWOL · December 03, 2012, 04:34:07 PM

If your supplier is telling you there is two different B style sockets, you had better get a second opinion from another supplier, because I have never heard of such. There are several different types of style B shanks, but they all fit the socket. Here is an example of an older and newer shank:

On the top is a new Simonds, and on the bottom is an older Superfine. The only difference in them is the shape of the sawdust swell and the profile of the tail, they both fit eqally well in all style B sockets.
In your case though, I don't think the shank is the problem. Even if you were to install a new bit with an old shank, it still would not be right because the bit is not the correct dimension. The problems I have had with the Simonds bits were with the actual cutting tip being offset a small distance.
Hope I didn't just confuse you more!

Alan

Ron Wenrich · December 03, 2012, 05:01:29 PM

I've run B style shanks for a long time. But, I run a winter shank and a summer tooth. What you were running before was a summer shank and a standall bit. The standall is a winter tooth. Either one of these combinations are good for guys in the more northern states.

The combination you have now is a summer shank and a summer tooth. That shouldn't be a problem. I've had those "dimensional" problems with Simonds in the past, as well as poor quality steel. I'd like to know more about another brand. Seems that Simonds has bought out every bit maker in the US and Canada. There are no more Hoes or IKS bits being made. There are some out of China, but those are really, really bad.

As for the cracks in the shanks, I've had them as well. They're stress cracks, and your shank won't fall apart while sawing. At least, it never did for me. I was running at 700 rpm, and sawing oak and hickory at those speeds. I have had a few that split when I put them in, but they usually split on the tip. They were generally a new shank.

Jeff · December 03, 2012, 05:14:48 PM

Quote from: ALWOL on December 03, 2012, 04:34:07 PM
If your supplier is telling you there is two different B style sockets, you had better get a second opinion from another supplier, because I have never heard of such.

That's really a rather unfair assumption about the supplier as they are a long time forum sponsor and been in business longer than you've been out of diapers. :D In fact, they were trouble shooting me as a new sawyer and keeping me going before you were born. ;) Old shanks get worn, his saw is old, his shanks are older shanks, they may have been in and out of the saw countless times. This makes them a different size than the newer shanks, and I'd bet that is what they meant. Peach is the saw guy at Menominee and the last I new had hammered over 10,000 saws, and that was a few years ago. Don't doubt Menominee for one second. They know exactly what they are talking about. If something gets confused in translation that's one thing, but please don't hammer a sponsor "because I have never heard of such" There are other size B patterns. Those are the oversize that as I knew came in 1x, 2x, 3x, and maybe 4, that were purposed to fit worn sockets.

I'm wondering about the alternative brand of bits as well. Last I knew all that was available was simonds any more. I think I have a post on here cursing the quality and size of the bits from 10 years ago.

We went to running summer bits and super-shanks all year round. I just didn't get along well with standalls.

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 06:05:35 PM

I could very well have mistaken what they were saying. I do think the supplier really do know what they are talking about because is wasn't 1 minute from the time I sent the email they sent something back explaining they had seen the problem before. As for as the other brand bits, I am not sure what thwy will send, as soon as I get them most likely tomorrow I will let you know. Here are some more photos of the combinations of shanks and bits, maybe it will help diagnos the problem.

This is the old shank and a new bit

This is a new shank and an old bit

This is a new and old shank. The new shank has a milimeter or two deaper belly than the old one.

The old and new bits are identical in size other that as mention earlier one is a winter and the other is a summer bit.

Jeff · December 03, 2012, 06:16:31 PM

Did you clean the sockets up on the saw? Sometimes minute wood fibers can collect under the shank, in the sockets almost as if they were a shim. Look to make sure there isn't any kind of build up like that on the saw, a new shank is not going to want to fit right.

Both those photo combinations above look good to me.

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 06:32:41 PM

Jeff,
I am cleaning them as I go. I thought both combinations look pretty good myself. I do wonder how difficult the new shanks should be to get in. The old shanks and this may not be right, but they take a couple whacks with a rubber mallet to the end of the install handle to get them all the way in and started out. The new ones take a few more wacks. Is this about right?
Charlie

Jeff · December 03, 2012, 06:45:10 PM

Honestly, I've never had to whack em to get them to seat unless something wasn't right When everything is clean, and lubed, they should turn in with simple pressure applied to the tool handle, with a couple of umphpahs at the end for good measure, then a rap on the shank to seat them. Coming out can be a bit tougher if they have been in awhile and "glued in" with wood juices.

ALWOL · December 03, 2012, 06:54:01 PM

I do not claim to know everything, and certainly did not intend to "hammer" on a sponser, and do honestly feel bad about saying that now, but there is not more than one style of B socket. There is however several oversizes of the B style.
Charles, is there a chance that the shoulder of some of your sockets have been repaired at some time?

Alan

dgdrls · December 03, 2012, 07:36:15 PM

I was thinking the same, perhaps one or more of the sockets are "over-sized"??

DGDrls

Charles135 · December 03, 2012, 08:04:09 PM

Alwol and Dgdrls,
I too am not a expert, but I have looked at the blade very closely over the last few days and have not noticed anything that would make me think there was any repair done. Also, all of the shanks were stamped B 9 and had no other markings on them to make me think oversized either.

For clarification on the info I relayed earlier: The supplier's response stated that my blade looks like an older saw (which it is) and that over time the measurements on the B-9 have drifted (I do not know about this at all). Again I am not sure if there will be a different brand or just another size!

Jeff,
When you say "a rap on the shank to seat them" what do you apply that "rap" with?
Charlie

beenthere · December 03, 2012, 08:11:13 PM

I think this video is member steamsawyer, but may be mistaken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr4pyjsCgnk

Jeff · December 03, 2012, 08:13:01 PM

I always waited until all the teeth were in, and used the handle on my swagging hammer. I would grasp both ends, and use the middle to give a wrap in the middle of each gullet. At each rap, I would use the handle to pull the saw around towards me so the next gullet was ready to rap. It would only take less than a minute to do 50 bits.