Peterson vs Lucas

[1953greg]

I am trying to decide which way to go?  what are the pros and cons of these mills against each other (disregarding any bandmill considerations as i have ruled them out due to blade/head maintenance).  im leaning to lucas simply from a logistic/domestic reason (100 mi n of bailey's in jackson tn).   i have seen neither in action,  only the lucas on tape.  any comments appreciated.  prices?  thanks 1953greg

[DanG]

I've seen them both in action.  Judging strictly from my own observations, the only thing Lucas has going for it is price.  IMHO, the Peterson beat's it, hands down, in every other category.

Among other, more minor things, I am very unimpressed with the Lucas method of raising and lowering the saw head.  It isn't too awful bad if you have a second person, but it would be tough to operate alone.

[Kirk_Allen]

Hum?  Lets See?  I cant seem to find a Lucas link on this here gold mind of information site ;D

I think Peterson would get my vote!

I have looked at both and one day hope to add a Peterson to my collection for those WHOPPERS that are kicking my but.

[Ianab]

I'd vote for the Peterson too, even though the Lucas isn't a bad machine.
I think the construction and ease of use features put the Peterson ahead.
Having said that we wont laff at you if you do buy a Lucas, they do work well  too

If you phone Peterson (see the link over on the left ) they will send you a video and more info on their mills too. Maybe you can even arrange to see someones mill in action.

Ian

[Captain]

Well everybody knows my vote ;)

Lucas Mills do the job, and Peterson ATS Mills are fractionally more expensive when comparing, however there are operating points and features that stand out.  I would urge you to contact Peterson for some information and try to see each mill in operation if possible. 

Best of luck with your research, and if you have any specific questions I can help with, let me know!!

Captain

[CosmoPack]

Well,  I bought a used Peterson in December.  Great move on my part.  I was leaning toward the Lucas at first, but the 10" cut capacity on the WPF made me lean to the Peterson.  The mill cuts great in the large oak logs that I am milling (36"-52").  I am cutting cants from the logs (6x6 to 8x10). I've cut a good number of 1" boards as well.  All the lumber is square and true.  I also have a small band mill and I do have some waviness (sp?) in some lumber.   I like that you don't have to turn the log while using a swing mill.  That saves alot of handling time.

I asked alot of questions here about this issue in December and received alot of good responses.  Captain helped me out alot in my initial learning stage about set-up and operation.  The folks in NZ have been extremely helpful as well.

[Hokiemill]

Greg,

Both mills will make lumber for you.  Both mills have pros and cons, and either way you go, you'll be darn happy to just have a mill and a stack of fresh sawn lumber and unhappy that you don't have a kiln or trailer with a knuckle boom, or a saw shed, or .......

With that said, I'll give you my opinion.  I would get the Peterson.  I own a Lucas 618 that I bought used and cheap and I hope to upgrade to a Peterson once the mill money starts flowing (hopefully).  As best I can tell there are four primary benefits to getting the Lucas:

Price:  Buying new or used the Lucas costs a bit less than the Peterson.  However, the difference isn't nearly as much as some believe.  Problem is, people make an apples to oranges comparison with the Lucas and the WPF.  The Peterson ATS is the comparison that should be made as the WPF is a completely different beast (an upgraded beast) and when you make that apples to apples comparison, the pricing is reasonably close.

Head lift:  This can be viewed as a pro or a con depending on how you look at it.  As DanG mentioned, the way you raise/lower the Lucas is a bit different than the Peterson.  The Lucas has two hand cranks at either end of the track, while the Peterson has two hand cranks, both on one end.  The con part of this is that for vertical adjustments on the Lucas you have to walk to the far end of the tracks or have a second person.  The pro part of this is that the Lucas set up allows you to raise the ends separately and this allows you to easily adjust your tracks to run parallel with the center of your log (adjusting for log taper).  With the Peterson this is done by shimming one end of the log up on its bunk after raising it with a hi-lift jack or similar.

Thin blade:  I believe the Lucas has a slightly thinner blade than the Peterson which results in a slightly smaller kerf (less wasted wood).  But the difference in kerf size in very slight and I think it makes very little difference (if any) in the end with how many boards you pull out of a log.  The downside to this is that if you want to make a full width cut (6" or 8") you will probably have to do it in two passes.  The thinner blade has a tendency to wander when making big cuts.

Location:  You mention that you're within 100 miles from the TN warehouse and that's a good thing.  But if you're like me, I'd rather wait on a couple days of shipping than drive 100 miles. 


Now, even though the Lucas pros can look like cons, there are some definite Peterson pros.

Side to side head adjustment:  You move the Lucas side to side by pushing it.  The Peterson moves side to side with a handwheel and chain arrangement that lets you easily crank the head in either direction.  On my 1998 Lucas, the side to side pushing is not always easy.  Even with the moving parts (wheels and UHMW block) cleaned and lubed, the shear weight of the head assembly can make a day of pushing that head side to side 1 inch or 6 inches at a time a bit tiring.

Side to side head adjustment lock:  This may be a problem specific to my mill, but the Lucas method for locking the head assembly once the side to side adjustment is made, doesn't work so well.  The lock is similar to a biesmeyer table saw fence turned upside down.  Vibration seems to make the lock handle drop and the head ends up moving small amounts.  I have to counter this by pushing the head against one of its side to side stops while I'm pushing the milling down the log.  Makes my hands tired.  I've adjusted every different way and it still won't work smoothly - I'm in the process of re-engineering a different lock.  If I remember correctly the Peterson lock is a bar that drops down into one of the head assembly wheels to keep it from turning.  Simple and effective.

Head swinging:  On both mills the head is rotated from vertical to horizontal the same way - a single handle with a gas cylinder assist is pushed through a 90 degree swing.  I'm not sure of the mechanics, but there is a huge difference between my 98 and the Peterson I saw at the Richmond logging show.  My Lucas takes a good bit of effort to get it moving, then the gas assist helps with the rest.  I was able to swing the Peterson head with one finger - no, really, one finger.  This can make a difference after a long day of swinging that head.

Loading:  If you're going to load your mill into the back of a truck by yourself, the Peterson has the edge here.  With my Lucas, I set up two ramps, put the two wheels on the head assembly, push the motor to the end with the wheels, lift the light end, and then push like hell.  At 155 pounds, I can't get the mill into the back of my truck unless I have help or I have the mill uphill from the truck.  The Peterson takes advantage of the hand crank side to side adjustment and a couple of small wheels on one end (in addition to the big jockey wheels).  Basically you place the light end (with the small wheels) on your tailgate, use the crank to move the motor up to tailgate end, lift the light end, and push it into the bed while it rolls on those little wheels.  I haven't done it, but it looks easy on the video.

Fit and finish:  From what I saw at the Richmond show, the Peterson seems to have, in general, a better fit, finish, and feel to it.  More aluminum, less painted, etc.

Double cutting:  Both mills have the ability to cut a board twice as wide as their stated sizes (an 8" mill can cut a 16" wide board), but it isn't an easy process for either.  Due to how it's made, the Lucas requires the entire head carriage to be lifted, spun 180 degrees and then lowered back onto the tracks.  The Peterson requires the removal of a blade guard and you're ready.  It isn't a process that you'll want to do all day long, but when the need arises for a wide board or beam – advantage, Peterson.

Support:  One big factor is the support you can find right here on the ForestryForum.  Peterson is a forum sponsor and several of its employees/founders are members who are considered part of the FF family.  Captain is a rep (I think) based in the Northeast and I think he stocks some parts in order to reduce shipping time.  When you ask a question about a Peterson here, someone who designs and/or builds them will answer.  Lucas is really a NZ company and Baileys is their U.S. rep and neither of them seem to be involved in this forum (or others).

Now, a couple caveats.  My comparison is based on my 1998 Lucas 618.  Things might be slightly different with newer models, although the overall design hasn't changed.  Also note that despite my pros/cons list my Lucas does saw boards ;D and I do have fun with it.  However, as an engineer, I'm always looking for easier, more efficient ways to do things and it appears to me that Peterson looks for these things too.  I have a Lucas because I didn't have much expendable cashola to chase a hobby and a $4000 swing mill is hard to pass up regardless of who makes it.  A Peterson is definitely in my future as soon as some money shows up  :D.

I hope this helps answer your question.  Get the Peterson video and go see both of the mills live and in person before you buy.

Wow, that was long.

[Jeff]

I can't resist to comment, but everyone knows what I would say for production, size of logs sawing and such.   I just have not found a mill that can do the precisions and production for one fella or gal like the two I have.

Yes, and ain't it a shame, with all the owners of that particular mill manufacture that are members of the Forestry Forum, and all the mentions that they get here, That that mill manufacturer's owner will not give the Forestry Forum any support let alone the time of day.

Looking at Swing mills, Peterson is a great mill with great people behind it.

[crtreedude]

Jeff,

To me this would be a very strong argument against the Lucas sawmill - it just says that they aren't that smart when it comes to marketing or to supporting customers.

On this forum, we get good information and not to be part of it when you get mentioned frequently seems to be pretty short-sighted. Makes me wonder if they intend to be selling to the market for a long time. Based on my experience, Petersons will definitely follow up with you - even if you live in Costa Rica - much less in USA.

Fred

[Jeff]

Jeff,

To me this would be a very strong argument against the Lucas sawmill - it just says that they aren't that smart when it comes to marketing or to supporting customers.

On this forum, we get good information and not to be part of it when you get mentioned frequently seems to be pretty short-sighted. Makes me wonder if they intend to be selling to the market for a long time. Based on my experience, Petersons will definitely follow up with you - even if you live in Costa Rica - much less in USA.

Fred

I'm not talking about the lucas mill. I'm talking about the kind of mill DanG has. But I think you make a good  point.

[D._Frederick]

I have seen these mills operate year after year at the LOGGING CONFERENCE and the Peterson gets my vote, it is much more user friendly. If you want to cut large cants, you don't have to pick-up the saw frame and turn it around.

Both of these mill need young legs to operate, if you are overweight and have knee problems, I would look at a different type mill.

[DanG]

D brings up a good point. (He gets one of these every year or two. ;D)  Unless you shuck out the bucks for the automated Peterson, swingers are labor intensive.

Another option that IS a forum sponsor, is the D&L Double Cut.  That's a multi-blade saw that gives you most of the flexibility of the swingers, with a lot less work.  You really oughta at least take a look at it.

Any way you slice it( ;D), making lumber is a lot of hard work. Anything you can reasonably do to reduce the effort required, is something worth looking into.

[Ernie]

I was comparing the Lucas and the Peterson, there are plenty of both around our neighbourhood (note the Kiwi spelling).  I discovered that a mate of mine has a Rimu twinsaw and "I liked it so much, I bought the company"  Well actually I bought one.  They are made in the South Island of NZ by Rimu Engineering Ltd.  The maximum cut is 12" X 6"  but with the slabbing bar, I will be able to get 5 ft wide slabs.

We have  Pines (radiata), redwoods, Tasmanian Blackwoods (Looks like walnut) various varieties of Eucalyptus  Poplars and Cypress macrocarpa which we want to mill.

Upon hearing that we are getting this particular mill, neighbours who were planning on getting the local Lucas and Peterson lads in have been beating on the door.  The consistent accuracy impresses them all.  Being a metric country all measurements and prices are metric, the going rate for milling is NZ$150.00 per cube + a tax known as GST (12.5%).

It will be hard to get around to our own stuff with prices like that.

The mill should arrive in the next couple of weeks so I will keep you posted as things progress.

Here is a picture from the top of our farm for your interest. Whoops, I guess that I had better learn how to attach a picture.

[T_in_SC]

Here is a used Lucas on Ebay in California.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61788&item=3871362339&rd=1

There is also a Mobile Dimension listed in Puerto Rico.

[Ernie]

Thanks to Jeff, I think that I have learned to attach a picture.

Here is the view from the top of the farm that I referred to in my last post

[DanG]

Wow, Ernie.  That's a nice photo! 8)

Welcome to the forum. I'll be looking forward to some pics of that Rimu. Don't think I've seen one before.

[Tom]

Nice picture, Ernie. 

You know that we have a thread on sky pictures, don't you?  That one would fit in there real good.  You could copy the address and not even have to upload it again.

[Ianab]

Hi Ernie

Good to see another Kiwi on here.
Picture looks like you are in North Taranaki, around Urenui area?
I've seen the Rimu mills running up at the Fieldays, they look pretty sweet but were out of my price range  :

I'm in Stratford by the way.

Cheers

Ian

[Ernie]

Hi Ian

We are at Mangamaio between Urenui and Uruti on the Mimi  Stream.  I dont think that I should translate the maori place manes for the forum, I might get banned.

Ernie

[Wife]

Hokiemill, I just wanna thank you for your very thorough and fair comparisons, even though you own the other one - I'm always on the lookout for a good salesperson - interested?? No, but seriously, that was brilliantly said. Thank you so much!

Oh, and just got a couple of updates for anyone whos reading...

Thin Kerf - The Lucas and Peterson blade "tips" are pretty close. But the Peterson blade "plate" (the body), is thicker. That means less waving, less heating up, less stress, less retensioning costs, with the same kerf. Plus there's a few more teeth on the Peterson blades, which reduces tip loading and therefore plate stress...oh, and sometimes a better finish too...OK, I'll shut up about blades!

Micro Kerf - My little bro' (Jake) has also invented this awesome new product especially for those "multiple 1x boards" where kerf is everything (or the bandsaw owners that just don't want any more sawdust). So we've now got an upgrade kit which allows you to cut 6" x 1" boards with a teeny 3.5mm kerf (just over an eighth of an inch)!

Head Lift/Taper - Since we've had so many requests for the ability to adjust the tracks to taper, yep, you got it. Jake made a teeny weeny modification to the ATS Track Frame, and now all new ATS mills can also be adjusted to the taper with a little handle. Don't you just looooove little brothers...

Oh, Oh, and the Production Manager is going to beat me up when he sees this, but I know Jake is also in the middle of designing some secret awesome Log Dogs that will also help with taper adjustments....and can line up your logs...and can hold several small logs at once...keep an eye out.

Factory - Ph 1877 3271471

[chet]

I think dat der Hokiemill, deservers one of dem nice Peterson hats.  ;)

[Wife]

I am inclined to agree with you Chet. And what size shirt are you, Hokiemill??

[Ga_Boy]

Now want the be a hoot.

Running a Lucas wearing a Peterson hat and tee shirt. :D

You gotta post a picture with that set up.



Hey Hokie,

If you ever want to run a 10" WPF, drop by my place around the middle of April.  I should have mine by then.



Mark

[NZJake]

Here's the Rimu's page...Rimuengineering.co.nz

Petersons have many Patents that are in various stages of acceptance, two of which have major importance to the generic make up of our mills, our High and low track system (high/low), another generic system is what we call the (ATS), this gives the abillity to raise one track independantly of the other. You will see that this company offers both very similar options. Just a point of interest at this stage. Other then the seemingly similar frame make ups, the Rimu holds one very distinct difference in that the operator must push two blades rather than one (if your cutting an 8/6 board you will need to push the mill through a 14" bite), they do have automated versions however, if you are going to mill with twin blade type mills automation is the right direction in my opinion.

I cut a huge hard wood log up in the weekend into 8/4, cut 2600BF in 4hrs (half the log, with a strong helper), I've got a bunch of pics of the tree getting removed and milled, I'll post them soon.

Ernie, keep us up to date on the accuracy of your mill, I know that it's gonna have to be pretty accurate to put the old swinger down. I thought you'ld look more toward a single saw for dealing with the harder tensioned logs you'll be getting? One blade means tension release, it also gives more power to the blade, I know I was apreciating it over the weekend with the big old gum I was dealing with.

Cheers, Jake.

[Hokiemill]

Wife (and anyone else with free shirts) I'm usually a Large unless the shirts run a tad small then I go for the XLs.  I'm a small guy but I gotta have breathing room  ;D.

Captain, I'd be more than happy to be a salesman for you.  Send me a 8" ATS and I'll demonstrate it to anyone who's interested, and if it's free then I can afford to keep my Lucas and I can show them both side by side.  Man, the ideas are flowing now.....

One more obvious thing to point out - I'm pretty sure the Lucas design has remained the same for many years - my 98 looks just like the mills in the current literature.  Based on info coming from Captain and NZJake, the Peterson continues to evolve and improve.

For my next product review I'll be comparing kilns for the small sawmill operators.  To be included in my review, all kiln manufacturers should send one working kiln to my home address.  In order for the review to be thorough and fair, the review process could take several years so you shouldn't expect the return of your kiln until the comparison is complete.  ;)