Farm tractor logging

[twistedtree]

I've read the various posts on logging with tractors and would like to hear about the experience people doing this have had.  As background, I've got about 250 acres in Vermont that's mostly forested.  It's all under current use with management plans etc.  I've done a number of cuts with the help of a forester and professional loggers, but am considering doing some of the upcoming work myself a bit at a time.  I've got 10 acres or so of pine due for a thinning, a a bunch of areas that would benefit from removal of some of the pioneer trees (birch and popler) now that the maples have taken hold.

The good news is that I already have a tractor and Farmi winch, and am experienced with a saw, so the tools are in place.  So far I've used it for maintenance of the land, roads, etc., which is quite a bit.  I'm also slowly clearing some areas to re-open fields and a few other features of the property, all in concert with the management plan.

My question really has to do with taking the next step to do a small scale harvest.  I'd have my forester mark the trees, then I'd cut, skid, buck, and market them to the local mills.   At least that's what I'm thinking.  I've got a trailer and figure I could cut a handful of trees and process then thru to loading on the trailer and delivery to the mill.  I'd mostly be doing it for the exercise (I spend way too much time behind a desk) and just the enjoyment of it (I know, I'm crazy).

Specific questions are:

1) What sort of daily productivity range (in MBF) might be expected?

2) Are mills receptive to small loads?

3) Is there any economic advantage to this?  I'd obviously avoid cut and skid charges, which run around $150/MBF in this area.  For example, if my time to process the same wood takes me 150hrs, then I'm getting $1/hr which is silly.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[maple flats]

I do this all the time. $1.00/hr is better than -$1/hr  ;D. Seriously, You will get much more than the $s if you do your own but you will not get rich in $s. I do it because I love doing it. I work at my own pace when I am cutting. If you do it you will find that you will leave the woods much healthier and you will take pride in that. First you should study the ways to minimise any damage. Don't get too close to trees, it compacts the root zone, make wet area crossings using approved methods and always look for dangerous situations and take time to study the best and safe way to do it. After you have done several acres just look at it, you will feel tremendous pride in your accomplishments, and you will have a real respect for the woods and will know every aspect of the woods better.

[wiam]

twistedtree where in VT are you? I live just south of St. Johnsbury.  I take logs to a local logyard on a trailer behind a pick-up.  The price is not always the best but it is only 8 miles round trip.  Today I took about 6000' of pine that I cut on Friday afternoon.  This is not typical because these pines were over three foot on the stump.  How big is your tractor? 

Will

[Max sawdust]

Twistedtree,
This is a great forum isn't it!
I am about 80% done with a 150 + cord hardwood thinning/aspen and birch removal in northern WI.  I use a John Deere 855 (24 hp) tractor with a front end loader that has two 2 1/2 foot peices of well pipe attached as forks and a Farmi winch for skidding.

I do not have specific answers for you, but I can tell you that I find it takes just as long to Skid/buck and stack as it does to fell and brush.  I have found that full length skidding is faster with the farmi, but you increase damage to the remaining stand.  With big 80-90' aspen I can put up 6 trees in a day.  (4-5 cords).  I would say 4-8 hardwood trees per day in difficult terrain, brushing very well and avoiding damage to the stand is typical for me.  Cords and MBF will be determined by the size and quality of the trees.  With a selective cut, I will cut all day and get one sawlog but lots of pulp/firewood.
Max

[twistedtree]

We're in the Royalton area - a bit south of you.  There are mills in Royalton and Bethel that are 20-30 minutes drive from the woods.

I was exagerating, I hope, with the $1/hr figure.  Although I'm not looking to get rich off this (good thing, eh), I would like to be confident I'm not doing something stupid compared to hiring a logger again.  Actually, for larger harvests I would hire a logger again.  We're just talking about the smaller ones here.

6-8 trees per day?  Feels like $200 to maybe $800 per day in wood?  Does that sound right?

My tractor is 30hp, and the winch is a Farmi 351.  The tractor is a bit small for the job, but is still satisfactory.

[Gunny]

twist:

Your numbers look pretty realistic and I'm wondering if you've given any thought to selling your logs from your landing?  I had some real good fortune doing just that with our certified tree farm back in the '90s and it was always a pleasure to welcome the sawmill owner onto our land with his entourage.  We never loaded-out semis, mind you, but did manage to move from 8-12MBF every week Ma Nature allowed us a good go at the timber.  And by "we", I mean "me" and my Husky and Farmall "Super M."  Essentially a one-man, old dog operation. 

Some of the smaller mills in your immediate area might be happy to come get smaller quantites per trip with their smaller equipment.  It'd save them some $$ and save you lots of time. But I'd sure start thinking of investing in a "starter" bandsawmill.  SOON.  The difference in your income realized/log will floor you.   You could pick one up, new, for about a week's worth of exercise in your woodlot, too.  Just an added dimension to your potentials.

Welcome to the Forum and remember: Always keep your thumb wrapped underneath the handle of that chainsaw!  After over 30 years in the woods, I still haven't had a stitch taken.  (The other stories don't count!)

[wiam]

Twisted,  to answer one of your questions.  I have taked logs to a local mill.  They are very good to deal with.  They even bend their specs for little guys.  Some species they want in longer lengths than 12s but the buyer told me not to worry because I would not flood them. :D :D

Will

[Frickman]

twistedtree,

I know you already have all the equipment, tractor, winch etc., but farm tractors DO NOT belong in the woods. Even on small scale harvests. If you do use a tractor, be very, very careful. There have been alot of people killed and alot of equipment busted up from logging with tractors. A horse or team of horses is actually a better alternative.

I know this sounds harsh, but it comes from experience. I've been logging and farming all my life with all sorts of machines and animals, and have no desire to log with a farm tractor. The machine was built to farm, not bounce around the woods. You have enough acreage to maybe justify a small skidder. One should be easy to come across in your part of the country.

As far as marketing your wood, good quality logs always sell. Sometimes for more, sometimes for less, but you can usually move them. A small bandmill will increase your options and soon pay for itself. Then you need a kiln, planer, etc. and be in it up to your neck like the rest of us.   ;D ;D

[beenthere]

Well Frickman  :
They are coming to the woods, big time, the way I see it. 
Today was the local "Forestry Field Day" and the woods was full of farm tractors set up for 'in-the-woods' work with farmi-winch type equipment and grapples, and FEL's with attachments, and trailers with boom grapples for loading logs, then there were the 3pt boom grapples, and more.  Also, obvious that the ATV equipment and usage in the woods for logging is getting to be big business. (I need to download some pics I took).  I suspect at the Paul Bunyan show there will be lots of 'farm tractors' touted for use in the woods.
Maybe the outgrowth of this apparent demand will lead to a 'discovery' of the smaller skidders that have been discussed on the Forum, and they will replace the small 4wd compact utility tractors being applied now.
I grew up with a Ford 8N in the woods, and it was one of the best pieces of equipment to move saw logs for a reasonable expense.  Now the tractors have the ROPS that should make them safer but they could still be considered 'farm tractors' and I think, reasonably safe. 

[dail_h]

   I 've skidded a lot of logs out of the woods with a farm tractor in my lifetime,and while as Frickman said they were not designed for logging,with a good SAFE  and ALERT operatorthey can be very practical.More time and thought will need to be given to skid trails,and especilybrush removal,but it is a very good optoin for small operations. IMHO

[Max sawdust]

Frickman,
True the horse is great, it is as low impact as you can get.  But I like my "horse power" to eat diesel. :D
I 100% confident you have vastly more experience than me.  You have a strong opinion against farm tractors in the woods.  I take issue with what you are saying though.

Have you ever used a Farmi type skidding winch? 
1. You do not drive through the woods. You skid the log to the tractor which remains safe on the "improved" logging road.  (This also reduces damage to the existing stand.)

2. If you have a heavy load or have to go through difficult terrain you "drop your load" drive forward and skid the load back too you.  (Thus reducing the risk for flipping.)

I think of a tractor with a Skidding winch as a fairly effective cable skidder.  However I belive a small forwarder would be best for moving the logs from the side of the logging road to the landing.

Beenthere, look forward to the pics on the attachments you saw for farm tractors. 

Max

[hillbilly]

            I don't have one of those fancy farmi wenches like you fellows are using ,but I did build something similar to one last year .I think that we pulled some where around 35000 ft w/it last winter and this spring ,all red and w/oak timber some of it I had to skid almost a1/2 mile to get to the mill ,rough hillsides and out of aBIG HOLLER.
             You wont get rich by no means ,a tracktor is actualy to slow to really make any money on ,But you can cut your own place and do a good job that you will be happy with ,take your time be careful.
             Alot of people have skidded logs w/8n ford tractor and such for years but if you have something w/front wheel asist and some sort of winch you can get alot more done.
                               HILLBILLY

[Patty]

Have you ever used a Farmi type skidding winch? 

Yes we hook ours up to the JD when we skid logs out. They are great.

Our tractor is the handiest farm tool we have, with attachments we can till the land, pull wagons, skid logs, mow the weeds, etc. We just don't have the money for or the need for a special tractor for each use, when one tractor can do just about everything we need it to.

[beenthere]

Max sawdust
Posted in another thread in this Forum   

[Frickman]

If you are in smoother country than I am, and are doing it on a limited basis, yes you can use a farm tractor. Farmi does make a good winch, as do other companies, and I've seen them in operation. If you know your limitations, and will work within them, then a farm tractor will work for you. If you put in alot of hours, in rough terrain, in big timber, you may find you are not saving much money if you add in the wear and tear on the tractor. If you have to build better roads through your woods just for the purpose of skidding logs you have to figure in that cost also. Used small skidders are fairly cheap, I just sold a Deere for less than $6,000. If you have several hundred acres to work on it shouldn't be hard to justify a small skidder. If a person is doing limited logging, under the right conditions, and knows their limitations then a farm tractor can do the job. It's just when you get you start to log with a farm tractor you may have a "false economy", where you think it's saving you money when it's really costing you more than if you used other equipment. If you do use a farm tractor, be very, very careful.

[Max sawdust]

Frickman,
I agree with what you are saying.  The farm tractor thing is SLOW.  (Especially if safety is your biggest concern.) I spend substantially more time preparing trails skidding and stacking at the landing than felling /brushing and bucking.  I have compared notes with another one man operation with a small forwarder and skidder, and he can put up at least 2-3 times more than I do with the tractor and farmi. 

However my small tractor trails are nice narrow walking/skiing/ ATV width, and I get alot of comments on how an area does not even looked logged.  Very low impact with the turf tires. 

All that being said, I have my eyes open for a small forwarder someday. I will use the farmi to pull snags and get logs out of tuff areas and areas were I do not want to drive in leaving the "untouched" look.
max


max   

[hookhill]

We are close to you, Washington, Vt. Last winter we skidded out 10,000 ft with a 30hp Kubota/Farmi winch and had Stacey Thompson from NH pick the logs up at the landing with his tractor trailers. We also sold a few loads to Buck Kendall in Bethel, VT. You can bring the logs to Buck right on your trailer and he will unload it for you. As far as a daily wage, I would say $200/ day is about right, if all goes well and the trees are fairly good size. Good lord , if you had some decent maple you could do much better than that. 250 acres is a lot of land to log yourself with a tractor. We only have 25 and I could take a load out once a year. Have you looked into a used skidder? As far as taking the logs to the buyer, I am not sure if it is worth it. Fifth wheel trailers can hold around 1000ft which gives you a savings of around $50-60 per load (what log haulers would charge/1000ft). In the time it takes you to take the load you could be in the woods pulling out more trees. Good luck.

[twistedtree]

Thanks for all the insight.  Although I have 250 ac total, it comes due for harvesting in much smaller stands.  The stand that's due for a cut in the next few years is no more than 20ac.

Although I'd love to have a skidder, it's not going to happen.  I also like the reduced impact of the tractor.  I'd buy a small forwarding trailer before I'd get a skidder.

I very much agree with all the safety comments.  I'd pretty paranoid about safety (and proud of it).  I've got my wheels set to their max width, and as someone else described, I drop the logs for steep hills and other dangeroud terrain, drive over the bad area, then winch the logs through to the tractor.  It can be done safely if you put your mind to it.

Horses would be great, but it too just isn't going to happen.  Quite frankly, they would be much more dangerous for me than a tractor given my complete absense of hourse handling skills.

Having someone else truck the loads is a definite possibility.  It will depend on how much a cut over what time period, and the weather.  I just need ot be sure I get the wood out before is starts to stain and lose value.  I just worried that it will take me too long to cut a truck load, which leads me to hauling it out myself in smaller batches.

[wiam]

The local log yard wants hardwood within 1 week in summer.

Will

[slowzuki]

I use a 50 hp kubota / farmi combo.  They are very common for use in the east as we don't seem to have the western steep terrain.

A good friend uses a much bigger tractor, a 90 hp Ford/New Holland with a big winch and he has really good production.  He can skid a lot of wood in a day and pull like 6 stems per cable run.

Part of this suceeding here is nearly no small scale logging is done in the summer.  All winter on frozen ground.  Our biggest problems are wet ground and bogs so winter lets a little tractor flit around the woods easily.

I got caught last spring with about 30 stems still in the woods when the thaw came, I got most of them out in mornings on the frosty ground but the last few came out in mud and the tractor was nearly useless even though its 4wd and big lugged tires.

If you take a tractor in the woods there are a bunch of good articles around on the web for reference on production, modifications you should make and costs.

[Kleek]

I use a JD 5320 with a Nokka 3pt grapple and a grapple on the loader for my firewood operation.  I skid tops and cull trees, also do clearcuts.  Easy and efficient for me.  See pic.

[Deadwood]

I don't know if this is much help or not Twisted Tree, but I recently did a small harvest in my own woodlot and used a small 25 HP Kubota Farm Tractor and small winch. As I went along I took a lot of pictures and added some text that I thought would help a person trying to do what I was doing....make a safe, small woodlot harvest. It might be too basic for you, but it does cover everything from planning the harvest to getting the most out of your logs. I will include the link in the hopes that it might help you in some small way. My e-mail is also on there in case you want to e-mail me directly.

Here is the link...http://www.railroadmachinist.com/Log_Intro.html

[twistedtree]

I read your whole account when you posted it elsewhere, and enjoyed it immensely.  Thanks for sharing it with us.

[Deadwood]

Thanks for the compliment Twistedtree. I orginally intended it for another forum, but they declined to use it. Now I am glad they did because it sent me here to a group of likeminded people. It was also a lot of work and I don't just mean the logging part. It required a lot of thinking and planning to make the harvest kind of photgenic and worthy of putting on the web. In the end my hard work was definately worth it. If you (or anyone else for that matter) has not seen it in the last 24 hours, you might want to take another look. I had the portable sawmill guy come by on Tuesday and reduced the pile of logs to boards. Nothing riveting by any means, but it is the final chapter on a pretty good harvest. Now you will just have to watch my New Shop page to watch the boards go up on my new shop.

[thecfarm]

I use a 40hp new Holland 4WD with a Norse winch.I don't have forks on mine.I use the bucket to haul rocks into a wet hole,to smooth out a rough place or just to haul out some extra  firewood with it.I do have a set of forks that I could put on.I myself would hate to use anything smaller than a 40 hp tractor.I have quite a ways to get to my wood yard.It takes me about a month to get enough for a load,about 5000bf.I have a job outside of my home.I'm very fussy on every thing I do on my land.I have about 120 arces of wood.You can't run a tractor over brush,high stumps,big rocks etc.Using a tractor in the woods really teaches you alot about the land and how and where to put in twitch trails.If I cut off a branch that is 12 feet long I will cut that at least 3 times so that it will lie on the ground and rot and so that it doesn't stick up in the air.A guy with a skidder will run over his brush and break it up.A farm tractor is very slow in the woods for getting logs out or it should be.My father and me use to use the NAA Ford,almost same as the 8n-9n.This was real slow.We did not have a winch than.Only a whole bunch of chains.I've never felt unsafe on my 40hp tractor in the woods.You can't haul a half cord of wood at a time.You have to know your tractor limit and haul less.My land is very boney too.I have big rocks,wet spots,hills,very uneven ground and at times all of the above all at once.Just takes more time to get the product out.I get all of the money,so there no reason to be in a hurry.Just need the right tools and the right frame of mind to get the job done.