Marking a property line.

[Gary_C]

Tracking ownership is just one of the reasons for an updated abstract. It shoud also include any previous official county/township notices that affect the property, any road right of ways on or adjacent to the property, utility right of ways, liens judgments, or other claims against the property. Anything that has been filed at the county recorders office that affects your property. There may be nothing to find, but it is worth a trip to the courthouse to check. Usually the people in the recorders office will help you search for all records and make copies for a small fee. Also when you go to the county offices, you can go to the county engineer or county highway dept and get a legal description on the two roads along your property.

One other source of information is from www.rockfordmap.com. They sell plat books for many counties. I checked and if you are in Mackinac County they have a plat book updated in 2006 for $45.00. Chippewa County has not been updated since 1980 and it is cheaper, but outdated. They are also sold by the local soil and water conservation districts and you might talk them into making copies of the pages you need. Their plat books will show all the tracts and owners names and the newer versions also show if your section is irregular in shape due to the original survey.

[LeeB]

Where do you come up with all this stuff Gary? You're a walking font of information.

[Gary_C]

Where do you come up with all this stuff Gary? You're a walking font of information.

Well, I have bought and sold property in Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. Got a real education many years ago when I bought my present farm where the previous owner was bankrupt, had loans from the Federal Land Bank (now Ag Star), the FmHA and numerous liens from local businesses. Not something I want to go thru again.   

Other than that, I have plat books and topo maps from every area where I buy timber sales. Most of the sales have GPS references that I can locate on the topo maps and see the terrain before I look at the job. Also can program the location in my GPS so I can be sure I am in the right place when I get there.

This year one of the training classes for the MN Logger Education Program I will be taking on June 13 is Accessing Aerial Photos, Topo Maps, and other planning tools. I hope to learn more about aerial photos and GIS software.

Oh and the US Army originally taught me how to use topo maps.    ;D

[Larry]

I drew a rough diagram of the property layout.



Here is the situation.

The red dot at the road corner is where the pin is. It also happens to be the section corner, so I doubt if a surveyor is going to mess with moving that.

This is how my description reads on the deed.

Parcel A:
The Northwest 1/4 of the Northwest 1/4 of the Northwest 1/4, Section 27, Town 42 North, Range 3 East.

Parcel B:
The Northeast 1/4 of the Northwest 1/4 of the Northwest 1/4, Section 27, Town 42 North, Range 3 East.

With that property description the pin at the road corner can't be the section corner???  Of course I have been turned around, backwards, and lost before.

[Norm]

The power company recently put in a new power line along a road next to our field. To our amazement the poles were in the field not in the right of way ditch next to the field. The power company had a survey done and found that over time the county had gradually graded the road to make it off the correct path. N Caribou looks like you had the same guy running your maintainer.

[Jeff]

Larry,  the map you see that I drew out is south down.  the lower right corner is actually the northwest corner, although I may have the two tens that make up my twenty oriented wrong.

[jim king]

This is a survey Amazon style .  A few months ago we surveyed our property using a GPS and found we had about 5000 acres more than we thought.  It is not uncommon here to have coordinate errors up to 50 miles.  The surveys were done years ago and are a disaster but every one knows what tree or natural feature is on the corners of the property line.  That is much more valuable here that the maps that everyone knows are wrong.  This little tour took three weeks without coming out.

[Burlkraft]

Jim,

What's that for dinner there... ???  ???  ???

[Larry]

Well now that I stand on my head the map makes perfect sense...but the writing is backwards. ;D

Think I would work it like Sprucegum suggested.  Go ahead and run both the east and south line just to see if you get closure with the existing pins.

[snowman]

I used to run corridors for a yarder with a compass and it can be very accurate.The FS only wanted 6 ft wide corridors which over the course of 2000 feet over uneven ground can be a challange. Interesting thing is, when you look back at your ribbon line you will swear it curves.The lay of the land fools the eye. When the yarder set up and tightlined that was the test. If the line was off and you had to cut more trees you had to pay for them.This didn't put you in good standing with the boss! Around here old  property lines are notoriously innacurate and most people don't harvest trees within 10 feet of their line, it's just the way things have always been done but thats around here, as I've learned in this forum what happens here, stays here,kinda like Vegas ;D

[jim king]

Burlkraft:  That is a full grown Amazonian deer.  Not like Wisconsin.

[Ron Scott]

One cannot go by roads as being on the boundary line though they may appear to be so on a the plat book, topo map, or aerial photos. I have run into a number of cases where a registered survey by a professional surveyor has placed the road well off the supposed section line.

Such cases have come back to "haunt" the landowner years after finding that the "assumed property line" was not the "correct line".

Using Michigan Law, only a Professional Surveyor, not an engineer, not an architect, not a landscape architect, or a forester, can do anything with establishing or reestablishing a corner or boundary line.

A certificate of survey from a registered professional surveyor is recommended as the best first investment for any forest landowner prior to initiating any resoruce management activities or to prevent trespass on the property.

As previously stated, the landowner is responsible for knowing where their property lines are. The first thing that the judge usually asks for in a trespass case is where is the "certificate of survey".

[Onthesauk]

Thinking about something that Snowman said about not cutting within 10 feet of property lines.  I notice around here that some of the biggest trees are near property lines.  I think over the years the loggers trying to be safe rather then sorry left trees along the lines.  My biggest cedar on 40 acres is within about 8 feet of my South line.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, that's what happens and the "true line" never gets determined. this may allow the neighbor to seek adverse possession to the "cutting line" should there ever be a dispute over the boundary line.

Neighbors don't seem to get along as well as they use to, especially when trees are being harvested. ;)

[Nate Surveyor]

Whellll, (that's a slow southern drawl!)

You have a fractional piece of a bigger piece of property.

This means that you cannot know your property lines, According to the deed, without knowing   the size and shape of the whole. In this case, the whole is Section 27.

So, although the ASSUMED (can we all say assumed) dimensions of your land is 1320' E-W x 660 N-S. BUT, to properly lay your deed on the ground, your surveyor will HAVE to know the dimensions of Section 27.

UNLESS, there are old occupation lines, that have been there a sufficient amount of time, to render them UN MOVABLE. Then, you could rely on some old fences or occupation. But, you would then not have an alliquat part of Section 27. (Aliquat means that Sec. 27 was divided into it's proper pieces) Thus, you would NOT have lines that totally agreed with your written deed.

Now, for the SHORTCUT.

There ain't one.

The north and west lines of this property are SECTION lines. So, if you wander off to the east of Paesley Road, and find the Section Line.... You might be able to project it westerly to get into the vicinity of the section CORNER at the NW corner.

But this one will need a surveyor to get to the bottom of.

Like one of the guys said above, Adverse Possession can really affect you, if you use approximate lines.

Good surveys make for good neighbors.

Nate

[Jeff]

If the east line is surveyed, and there is a pin at the north east corner, and I know that the property is 660 by 1320, cant we go off of that surveyed line?

[SwampDonkey]

I am guessing, simply measuring in from the pin 660 feet on that line should give me that corner. I am also guessing that measuring 660 feet from the section corner to the north will give me the other corner, however, I dont know if the road runs parallel to the property or not, which seems if it didn't, would throw me off.

Unless that road to the south is part of the original grid, like a crown reserved road, it's Azimuth will not likely correspond with the north line. If you could find one of those lots up Peasley Road with a well marked side line, you could take a reading off it. Your deed might have the azimuth as well, but is it in reference to magnetic north or true north on the deed? It would be nice if it's True North because you wouldn't have to figure what the declination was way back when it was originally granted. Most likely it was magnetic. On another note, I wouldn't be caught dead marking an unknown line on a property I just bought when I'm the new kid in town. I'd have the licensed surveyor do his work. It's funny there isn't any evidence marked on old cedar trees on that line, it would hold up for decades.

[Jeff]

Swamp, I'm not looking to mark the line at this time for any other reason other then to have a rough idea of where my property is and is not. Actually, I'm not really the new kid. I'm the new owner of this chunk yes, but the neighbors for the most part have know me and been friends for years, I just don't know the neighbor that is behind me yet as that is not a full time residence. Corley5 and I are going to make a one day trip up there Wednesday and the neighbor across the road, Lou, who owns near a section in that township, is going to let us use his equipment and his knowledge and with what I have learned here we will try to rough in our line.

I am guessing there is no marks on the cedars as this was probably once an 80 like the one to the east, and probably split and resplit up by family without it ever being lived on.

[SwampDonkey]

One thing you could do is ribbon some saplings with winter grade ribbons as a 'management line' and you probably won't get anyone excited.

[Nate Surveyor]

Jeff, if the NE corner is in, then you should be able to take a compass on the road on the south side, and record that brg.

then, go to the north end, and use the same compas brg, and get close.

I thought later of the fact that this is a Section line. I suspect that there is an existing Section corner out there. Using the above method should get you into the vicinity, and allow you to begin a search.

If you find it, then you may be in good shape. Be carefull that you don't find and use an old goat stake, as the Section corner!

That Section corner is necessary to survey in that section. Thus, it should be in. If it is not, then it would be computed... based on a bunch of  tie line.

Let us know if you find something out there.



N

[woody1]

We just did a rough compass run on a property a friend of mine purchased. With the compass and a hip chain we were able to find all old corners and several old blazes on the lines. It is exciting to find old stone corners and blazes.

[Jeff]

Ye never know, we might find the same thing.    If nothing else, I'll get a chance to show someone the property for the first time.  8)

[Engineer]

This is a fascinating thread, because being in the New England states, we don't use sections at all.  I haven't the faintest idea how you'd deal with your problem, Jeff.   Totally out of my area of study or expertise.  

So I'm looking forward to learnin' something here....

[sprucebunny]

Parts ofNew Hampshire have something like sections. They are called ranges and lots. Not many 90* cornors, though. They are around 100 acres.

[Corley5]

Looking forward Wednesday  8)