sawmill type question remarks etc

[Quebecnewf]

I need to break down into  mostly 2x material approx 10,000 to 15,000 logs per year. These trees would be all spruce and balsam fir. Logs would range in size from 6" at top to 14" at top. Log lengths from 8' to 16'.

If you needed to do this type of sawing give a list of equipment you would go out an buy. You are on a tight budget/ second hand is allowed/ should take approx 3 people to run maybe 4/ system must be expandable if needed/ support equipment  is on site ie loader  etc etc./ both band and circle systems or a combination of both are to be considered.

Please be prepared to explain your choices to other members who I'm sure will have different systems in their heads.

Let the info flow

[Percy]

Heya Quebecnewf(neat handle :D)
My guzzintas say at 240 working days per year, you need to do about 62 logs per day or 7.81 per hour(8 hour days) or  about 7 and 3/4 miniutes per log. Using the log size you mentioned, a computer setworks and a dragback of some sort would be paramount in my opinion. An LT40 Super with a dragback (or an LT70) along with an edger, and tractor/forklift/bobcat as in what ever you like) along with a couple of good chainsaws. A recieving table to hold the flitches waiting for edging(the one that the dragback flings the boards/flitches onto). An elevated logdeck would help speed up log loading as well but an efficient sawyer could work around that. Youll need a sawyer, an edgerman and a support dude who cleans up steady and bucks logs and generally helps whoever is getting bunged up. A fourth person would help bigtime but finances may not allow.

Using a system similar to the above,(4 of us) I was cutting all 8 foot pine in the 8-10 inch top size at an average of  2 miniutes and 10 seconds per log. Some hours we did 32 logs, at 3 2X6's per log(768 bd ft an hour). Best day though was 5600 bdft. Averaged a little over 5000. It was hard work and I was chewing the inside of my cheeks all day long. I got better at it and when I could do it easy, the job was over.

Im sure there are other?better ways of doing it..... ;D

[Bro. Noble]

I would want a small conventional circle mill and a good heavy-duty edger.

I would want a loader of some sort.  It wouldn't need to be too big to handle that size of logs,  but would need to handle your finished packages.  Typical packages weigh around a ton.  A loader rated for 5000 lbs would work.

Three people should be able to saw that amount with this equipment.

[RacinRex]

I'm with Bro. Noble on that.
We used:
Frick but no edger   
White 105-2 field boss (540) PTO providing power to the mill.
White 65-4 w/ front end loader organizing the log yard and loading the log deck.
One Saywer
One Tail saywer
One guy loading the deck and running the log yard.
about three flatbed wagons for stickering lumber to transport
F600 dump for hauling slab wood, sawdust and sawlogs

we only sawed 4 months steady out of the year, but it was productive. about 3000 sawed logs with only the circle mill and no edger.

The key was the help knowing how everything worked and working together. We were working hard, eating sawdust and loving every minute.

[Quebecnewf]

Percy

Am I correct in that you were using a bandmill and just sawing through and through ie no turning and then throwing everything through th edger..

I saw with a bandmill 2x4 2x6 2x8 etc I doabout 10 logs an hour. I spend too much time turning logs and carrying slabs.

Here is what I am leaning towards

a small circle rig to produce a 3 sided cand then a 2 head bandsaw resaw with a run around deck
Sometimes the circle mill would break the log downcompletly if the resaw got overrun but I dont think this would happen too often.
The logs are small but if you can process them at a decent speed  you can make a dollar

[FeltzE]

If your considering cutting knotty stock I would consider going to a sawmill with a 2" or wider band blade or a circle mill. Production may be severly limited in knotty stock with the smaller bands!

If you are running with smaller logs 6-14" a double blade scragg mill will process 60+ logs an hour tail the cants off to a resaw with a run around.

The level of sawmilling you are talking about warrents greater effeciencies than a simple one man sawmill. In my opinion the 1 1/2 inch band mills are not optomized for true commercial production (A comment that will get me strung up on a tree I'm sure) They are very capable and offer a wide and versatile ability to cut lumber but in the end the sawmill itself is only a small portion of the material breakdown.

You are draining your profit in labor expences with each employee you are required to maintain. The cost of employees is much higher than what many people think, (hourly wage). Insurance, tax etc. needs to be considered. So designing to minimize touch labor is important.

Consider all your handling effeciencies,
Logs to the log deck for break down
scrap off the main saw
Cant's off the head rig moved to the break down saw
Flitch to the edger
Scrap off the edger
Lumber off the edger
lumber off the resaw
Lumber off the head rig.
Sawdust waste, blower or conveyor?

Debarking? too save efficiency in saw life?
debarking debris, coveyor?

How are you going to power it? Electric, diesel, Generator?

What is the largest timber you expect?


A lot of questions not many answers. I would start with determining the amount of investment capital you intend investing. Then see what the best system you can build is.

What is your intended profit margin per mbf of lumber handled.

Eric

[Quebecnewf]

Eric

Very interesting comments. I agree with what you say about labour costs. Every time you touch a log or lumber it costs you money.

I am thinking the following a Kara MILL circle to break down the log to a 3 sided cant. A log deck to hold the logs one man will saw and do all the turning of the logs this equipment is built into the Kara. All slabs are falling onto a green chain and then outdoors. The cant is dumped of on the other side and is fed through a 2 head band resaw all the output from the resaw goes onto the same green chain .outside there is a man packing the bundles the slabs are taken away by loader. I figure three men could get good output. The log deck would be angled and could hold a 5 hour supply of logs .

All units are electric but we will be running a large generator 150 kw to supply power.

Paul

[Percy]

Percy

Am I correct in that you were using a bandmill and just sawing through and through ie no turning and then throwing everything through th edger..

I saw with a bandmill 2x4 2x6 2x8 etc I doabout 10 logs an hour. I spend too much time turning logs and carrying slabs.

Here is what I am leaning towards

a small circle rig to produce a 3 sided cand then a 2 head bandsaw resaw with a run around deck
Sometimes the circle mill would break the log downcompletly if the resaw got overrun but I dont think this would happen too often.
The logs are small but if you can process them at a decent speed  you can make a dollar

Ya Qnewf ;D
I was sawing though and through allthough I had to turn each log once(the chain turner on the LT70 is fast). I had all the programs in the computer and things went well but as Eric pointed out, the 1 and a half inch blade is the limiting factor here. Your log  numbers say it can be done with a bandmill such as mine but it is the upper limit. A Kara mill is somthing else. I watched one work once and the fence thing makes the most accurate lumber Ive ever seeen from any mill as no matter what the log stress, the lumber thickness remains the same. They seem to excel in smaller logs as in what you are looking to do.  You could easily double the numbers you mentioned in my opinion but there will be support stuff needed up the wazzooo.  ;D ;D

[Quebecnewf]

Percy

Thanks for the comments I to have heard that the Kara mill can saw very straight. My problem is how to lay the mill out based on the seneraio I posted earlier. DO you know of any site or address web page etc etc where there are different type of sawmill layouts shown.

This is a great web site. I'm planning to haul some more logs tomorrow  by snowmobile last trip before the sea ice gets too thin . If the weather cooperates I will post some pictures. If the weather is bad I will go sawing instead.

Paul

[Ron Wenrich]

There are some incredibly inexpensive used automatics on the market.  I saw one that had computer setworks, 3 saw vertical edger, slab saw w/offbearer and 2 2 strand decks for $17.5K.  You would have to do something on the power end and would probably need a log turner.

For the type of operation you are discribing, I would tend to think on the lines of an automatic with a vertical edger.  That eliminates the edger man.  You can sit there and peel 2x stock at a pretty good clip.

You can shoot those 2x onto the offbearer and right onto a 3 or 4 stand deck.  Take it out at a slow pace, and one guy can take care of all the stacking, including the waste.

I would also think about a double end trimmer.  Seems to me you have a better chance of marketing double end trimmed dimension stock.  Used goes for as low as $6500.  If you don't think double end trimming would help, then don't put one in.

Figure out what you are going to do with your woodwaste.  If you're going to chip it, then you may need a debarker to make clean chips.  If you have a mulch or bedding market, you could use a wood hog.  Figure this out first, since it doesn't take too long to be drowning in waste.  1/2 of your production will be waste.

I know of one guy who has set up a mill to run basically by himself.  He saws, fills up his lumber deck, then stacks the lumber and reloads the mill.

A mill like this may seem like overkill, but money is made by how quick you can make a product.  Speed lowers your production costs dramatically.  Why work 200 days when you can do it in 50? 

[Quebecnewf]

Ron

I'm afraid you lost me What is an automatic I'm new to a lot of the terms you used but I like the price of 17.5 K

Can you give me more info.

Paul

[Frank_Pender]

Q.. I would go with two MD mills for the operation.  To fellas per unit.   One would be constantaly preparing the logs for sawing and lumber unit removal, as well as any and all waste materials; while the second would be producing lumber.  With this method I feel I could get the job done with a respectful production per day.   

[Ron Wenrich]

A standard circle mill has a blade that is 48-60" in diameter.  I'm running a 54" and can make a 20" board, if I have to.  These mills have a carriage that the log is dogged onto.  The saw is stationary, and the log is run past the saw.

There are 2 types of carriage options.  On a manual mill, you have to set the dogs by hand, set the tapers by hand, and advance the setworks by hand.  Saw feed can also come off of the husk.  Its pretty much a self contained unit.

An automatic removes the sawyer from the carriage area and usually puts him in a booth.  From there, he sets dogs, tapers and setworks.  He can also control decks, a log turner, and set a vertical edger.  Power is supplied via hydraulics.  Also, hydraulics are used for a carriage drive. 

These mills take more power to operate, but can eat logs up in short order.  My average time for sawing 4/4 grade is about 3 minutes per log.  I don't saw many logs that are less than 12".  I can also saw to a length of 24'.

[Quebecnewf]

Ron

Thank you for the info but I now have another (dumb) question

What is a 3 saw vertical edger how does it work and what is a slab saw with offbearer

Paul

[Ron Wenrich]

No such thing as a dumb question.

I'm sure you have seen most edgers that are mounted on the floor.  They are basically a 2 saw horizontal unit that has one stationary and one movable blade.  Here's what mine looks like:  The vertical edger is to the right of the headsaw.




A vertical edger sits upright and sits ahead of the saw.  You would be edging the board before you saw it.  My edger is just a 2 saw.  Both saws move from anywhere from 2" to about 24".  There is a guage that tells you where your saws are set, and you can also put on laser lights that show where your saws will cut on the log.

There can be 2 different configurations on a 3 saw edger.  One has all 3 blades being movable.  The other has 2 movable with one that is a fixed distance from the top movable saw, usually 4".  That 3rd saw could be removed, if it isn't needed.  With 3 blades, you could theoretically pull 4  boards off of one face.  I do 3 with a 2 saw edger.

Slab saws that I have seen are usually automatic.  They cut slabs to firewood length.  The offbearer is a belt that takes the cut slabs away.

Mills like mine have an automatic offbearer at the headsaw.  It takes the slabs and boards away from the saw.  A lot safer than having someone pull them away.

[ARKANSAWYER]

   Circle scragg mill and band resaw.  Saw the logs to board width on scragg and then saw the cant to thickness on the resaw.   A multi head resaw could be set up to bust them up as fast as the scragg can knock the slabs off.  A good edger can be set up so that slabs can be recovered if to thick and barky boards can be resized. Baker has a scragg mill that will make a 3 sided cant in one pass with two circle blades and a band top blade.  Then you flip the last slab up and send it through a resaw.   I would look at multi head resaws as it will save lots of time in spliting the cants.
  Waste removal will be a problem.  DO you have 3ph power?  This will determin what equipment you can buy and price.

[FeltzE]

I can't help but quote the flier I recieved in the mail today... in reference to your desire to start a sawmill...

"ULTRA MODERN SAWMILL FOR SALE BY PRIVATE TREATY"
"This is a state of the art sawmill. A shighly automated operation with current production of 350,000 board feet per shift...Reveneus in 2004 exceeded $35million dollars with the mill running at 95% capacity on one shift"


I get lumbermens and pallet enterprises and there is at least 5 commercial mills up for auction in any given month some times more some less, the most I've counted is 14 in one paper in a single month.

I would certainly have to evaluate the market pretty hard If I were to go in it full time with employees and expect to try to make a profit. Sawmills like the one Ron posted and Jeff work at have a pretty intense support staff and equipment list that keeps those head saws running.

Eric