The Forestry Forum CRASH OF 2007 ARCHIVES
General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: Dave Shepard on October 15, 2007, 18:15:16
Title: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: Dave Shepard on October 15, 2007, 18:15:16
It would appear that I have been roped into a TJ 208D project. How did I get roped in, you ask? Well, I'm self-roping, of course! ;) :D It needs a few things, but appears to be in decent shape. The rear hubs have been taken off to get rebuilt, still waiting to find out if they are going to reappear.
#1 This machine does not have a winch on it, but does have a hyd. valve marked "winch". There is a driveshaft yoke on the transfer case that appears to go to a hyd. pump. Would this machine have had a hyd. winch?
#2 Would this machine have had a torque converter, or is it a straight manual transmission with just a clutch?
#3 As this is not a powershift machine, does it use some sort of a reverser, or "Johnson" bar as some have called it?
If anyone has any input on this machine, I would appreciate it. I have done a bunch of hunting around on the internet, but have not been able to find any info other than machines for sale. I will probably be looking for service/repair manuals as well. Thanks.
Dave
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: Dave Shepard on October 16, 2007, 00:45:50
#4 This machine has chains only on the front. Is there a reason for this? I have seen many skidders that are only chained up on front. Thanks.
Dave
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: amberwood on October 16, 2007, 03:03:10
Dave.
All manuals etc are avail from the John Deere site..I managed a copy for my 67' 205HR. PDF download in a few minutes.
www.jdtechinfo.com
DTR
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: a old timberjack on October 16, 2007, 04:22:16
i ran a 208 for 2 seasons for a guy , nice machine it sounds like it has a manual transmission. if you are not sure just look on the floor , 2 pedals or 1 beside the throttle . i own a 225 c model, it is a early 70,s machine.
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: thecfarm on October 16, 2007, 06:25:45
I would want something with a winch too.How much will one cost to add on to this one?It would be a shame to cut down a 4 inch red oak to get to a 2 foot pine.That's about all I know.
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: Dave Shepard on October 16, 2007, 09:23:27
Thanks everyone. It has two pedals on the floor. They both move together, but I am guessing they are just riding on the same shaft and need some lube. I definately want to rig up a winch, I might have to use the Farmi to get the logs to the skid road, and then use the TJ to get them out of the woods. A bit of a pain, but I want to do as little damage as possible. I'll get some pics when I get it home.
Dave
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: Dave Shepard on October 16, 2007, 21:23:41
I tried to locate Timberjack info at that site, but couldn't get to cooperate, what steps did you take Amberwood? Thanks.
Dave
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: sawyer40 on October 17, 2007, 00:38:33
Wow a 208 grapple skidder I didn't think they put grapples on anything smaller than a 240. My 230 is direct drive from the trans it had some kind of reverser but that was long gone before I got it. So I have to shift between forward and reverse manualy using the cluch. Also I have a drive shaft off a pto on the side of the transfer case that powers the winch and a hydraulic control that works the winch and locks the brake on. As far as I know the only hydraulic pump on that machine is up front off the crankshaft. Does your 208 have a 353 detroit?
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: Dave Shepard on October 17, 2007, 00:49:42
Yes, it is a 3-53. I spent a few minutes this afternoon poking around on it. It has a four speed transmission, which is a New Process. There is a lever that goes either into the front of the transmission, or ahead of it, don't know what that is for. Also there is a lever that goes back to the transfer case, I think that might be the reverser. There is a short driveline going to a pump at the very back of the machine, but it is not plumbed to anything. ??? The entire winch works has been torched out, so I have no idea what was there. I am going to see if I can find one in a junk yard and cut it off and weld it onto this machine, the grapple will be nice, I am sure, but I would really have liked to have had a winch. If I can't find anything in a junkyard, I will have to rig something back there. I'm looking forward to getting it home so I can start tinkering, but we still have to find the rest of the rearend. Not only are the planetaries missing, but the pumpkin is gone too. This is not my responsibility, however, as the machine is to be in operating condition, per our agreement. Apparently the parts were removed to be rebuilt, still hunting them down. I am amazed at the condition of the machine, all of the tinwork is straight, and it isn't a huge mess of weld repairs, although there are a couple of small things that need fixin'. ;D
Dave
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: sawyer40 on October 17, 2007, 06:52:08
The lever going to the transfer case on mine is a hi and low gear. With that each gear in the trans will have a high and low
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: sawyer40 on October 17, 2007, 06:58:10
From what I've seen the 208 -225-230 tj are all pretty much the same with slight differances. I've seen one 208 and it looked exactly the same as my 230 except mine has 34"rubber I couldn't see any other differances on that machine.
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: amberwood on October 17, 2007, 08:46:16
Dave..
JD Manuals (http://www.johndeeretechinfo.com/index.cfm?event=productNavigate&division=FORESTRY&menuDivision=FORESTRY&and_attributes=division,model&model=208D&menuModel=208D)
just need to register as a user, then change the option to download, add a visa card etc and you have manuals. Mine are a scanned copy of an original printed TJ manual, complete with a couple of annotations from a previous owner!
DTR
Title: Re: Timberjack 208D grapple skidder questions.
Post by: Dave Shepard on October 17, 2007, 17:11:09
Thanks amberwood. I guess that means that the machine is at least a 79 or older. I wonder if a regular JD dealer (not forestry) can order from the bookstore, the friend I am getting the skidder from owns five dealerships. ;)
Dave
Dave I'm guessing that 208 is from the sixties :o
Did TJ offer a grapple and winch in the 60's? I was told that the machine was an '83, but that doesn't agree with the JD tech info. It has been very hard to find any info on skidders online other than who has parts and machines for sale. :(
Dave
I get all my parts from Lyons Equipment they are the closest TJ dealer. When John Deere took over they switched to tiger cat but still sell after market TJ parts and still have all the books for the old machines and can get any part needed. If you give them a call and the serial #of your 208 they can tell you anything you want to know about it. Lyons equipment has many locations in Ny-PA-Oh and west VA
Went poking around the skidder again today, the tag says it is a 208-GS, I don't know why it was marked 208D, unless the D is just that particular generation of that model. We've got a good lead on the guy who has the rest of the rearend parts. 8)
Dave
Hope you find em rears ain't cheap neither are planetaries
I've run into a problem with this thing. I can't get it to turn over. I put two new batteries in it, cleaned all the connections and all it will do is clunk when I push the starter. I know it is moving a little, but it won't turn over. I have enough juice at the starter to weld with. I am thinking that the starter got burned out in a past attempt to start it. >:( It sure sounds like the solenoid is working, and sending the gear into the flywheel pretty hard. Please don't tell me I have to remove the starter, unless it is only held in by the one bolt I can see. If there are two bolts ( which I am sure there are ::) ) I may have to remove the engine or burrow in from under transmission to get to it. :o
Dave
I don't know anything about this piece of equipment. However when checking the connections, measure the voltage from the terminal stud (NOT the connector on the end of the wire) to the ground on the starter. This voltage must be measured while attempting to operate the starter. If you can get access to the connection between the solenoid and the starter, measure the voltage there while attempting to operate the starter. It is possible for the solenoid to operate and engage the starter but not make electrical connection to the starter. (I have had this to happen to some of my equipment.) Voltage measurements on a starter circuit have little meaning unless made under load.
" It is possible for the solenoid to operate and engage the starter but not make electrical connection to the starter."
That is a good point, I broke the housing on the solenoid trying to tighten the battery cable, so I have to replace it. I know I have a ton of amperage at the solenoid due to a couple of arcing incidents that left a wrench lightly welded to the oil filter housing. ::) ::) What can I say, it was a long, cold, wet, muddy, greasy, afternoon. :-X :-X Thanks.
Dave
Good luck. Those starter problems seem to messy ones.
dave, i mite be going in the wrong direction, i have a mid 70's 225c and mine is positive ground, i am no electrical person but ????????
Dave my TJ is a 74 with negative ground. Are you sure it's the starter :-\. Now heres something else to worry about. If I leave my TJ outside without covering the duel exaust pipes rain will enter and fill a cylinder with water :o Put a socket wrench on the crankshaft pully nut and see if that engine will turn over. It might be stiff from setting or worse if water entered. I hope it's your starter.
I hooked the new batteries up the same as the old, negative ground, 12 volts. I can put a bar in the u-joint on the hydraulic pump driveshaft and the motor turns freely. Right now I suspect the solenoid. I have one here that should fit. Might get a chance tomorrow. Thanks
Dave
Well, tried another solenoid today. It came off of our 806. My father said that it was only put on to rule out the solenoid, and that it was taken right off as the starter was taken out to get rebuilt. ::) I've heard that one before. Solenoid engages starter gear, but I get no voltage going from it to the starter motor when it is engaged. Will get a new solenoid and see if that helps. Tip for the day: when you drop the little tiny nut for the solenoid, and spend ten minutes poking through the tall grass to find it, don't put it in a pocket that has a hole in it. ::) ::) :(
Dave
Got a chance to get a couple of pictures of the skidder today.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tj_1.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tj_3.JPG)
This next picture is of the rear section. The driveline u-joint on the left comes from the transfer case, the one on the right goes to a hydraulic pump. It is not a factory looking setup. I am guessing that the winch would have been driven from the u-joint on the left, but I am not sure.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tj_2.JPG)
Dave
At least somebody painted it.
Stonebroke
Finally making some progress on getting the skidder running. I took the solenoid apart and found one of the posts was eaten away on the inside, luckily they can be turned around. It still clicks, but it will try to turn a little, but things get hot fast. I decided to pull the battery cables out, and found a master switch down underneath the panels. The connections were totally shot. So, it's off to get new cables, and a better solenoid. Unfortunately, if I am going to get new cables, I am going to switch to stud batteries, so I will have to get a couple of new batteries too.
Dave
Dave, I admire your perserverance and determination......stick with itness. Checking the voltage drop and resistance across connections is another simple way troubleshoot. Good luck.
Some people have told me that Timberjack never made a 208 grapple skidder. Has anyone else ever seen one? It may be a hybrid of some sort. It was originally used to pull power poles in to build high voltage lines.
Dave
Could be a hybrid, when I was shopping for my skidder I saw a 230 TJ with a back hoe mounted where the arch should be,It had a grapple on it and a reese box hitch mounted in the back plate to haul a trailer. I've often thought about that since,every time I try to work when its muddy.
TJ did make a 208 can't tell you how long they produced them I've seen a few around but never one with a grapple.
The Timberjack 208D was a cable skidder only as far as I know, though they have been known to make an occasional "hybrid" by special order or experimental.
Thanks everyone. This machine was originally owned by a utility company, so a special order seems likely. The 208 G-S model designation suggests grapple skidder to me.
Dave
It warmed up a little the last couple of days. I have been needing to drain the transfer case of water, but I couldn't figure out how to do it with all the gunk frozen in the bottom of the skid pan. So, I pulle the case right out of the machine. ::) :D Probably a good thing, as I need to work on the hydraulic brake, and there appear to be some leaks. I'll probably end up taking the whole thing apart, inspeciting it, and gettting it sealed up good again. I have the rear axle tube ready to be dropped down. We may have found the parts, but if the guy doesn't have them, we are probably going to get another entire axle. Either way, it will be easier to rebuild this unit off the machine, and slide it back under when it is fixed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tcase.JPG)
Dave
What brand is the trans case? I rebuilt my cotta trans case, new bearings and seals for around $400. then the fuller transmission lost 2nd, that was total rebuild by Rodger Ramond in Bernardston Ma. for $1250. :o .
The only tag I have seen so far is a Timberjack tag, with serial number and part number. As far as I know, the case is in working order, but it does seem to be leaking, the oil is going out, and the water is getting in. >:( I still haven't figured out the mystery lever yet. Anyone know if a 208 has high and low range?
Dave
Hi Dave!Yes the transfer should have high range(for roading)neutral(for winching)and low range(for skidding).I have parts manuals and repair manuals for all Timberjack's up to 1989.Do you have the serial#?
Welcome to the forum MaineLogger.Midcoast area?Brunswick-Topsom area?
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, MaineLogger!
My machine's tag says it is a 208G-S model, serial 788,xxx, unit 0576. Thanks for the help.
Dave
Quote from: thecfarm on December 26, 2007, 10:13:20 AM
Welcome to the forum MaineLogger.Midcoast area?Brunswick-Topsom area?
Thanks!Actually to the east a little bit,I live in Cushing,it borders Thomaston,Warren,Friendship.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 26, 2007, 11:10:37 AM
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, MaineLogger!
My machine's tag says it is a 208G-S model, serial 788,682, unit 0576. Thanks for the help.
Dave
Thanks Dave!
Sometimes the first two #'s in the serial will tell you the year,the 78 might mean 1978 which looks about right to me.
The machine is definetly a factory "hybrid" of sorts but everything on that machine is common and easy to find parts for and cheap compared to other brand machines.
A good place to find Timberjack parts is Harold's Logging in Hampden Me.(207)942-8331 or Davco in Farmington Me.(207)778-9060.
Could you take some more pictures of the controls, transmission and center pins?
I'll take some this morning, and have them up sometime in the evening. Thanks for the help.
Dave
Here are the pictures of the controls, MaineLogger.
The dash board showing gauges, steering lever, blade lever and winch control:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tjdash.JPG)
The shifters. The top one, with black knob, goes to the transmission, the bottom black knob goes to transfer case (H,N,L ?) the middle one without knob goes to bellhousing, and the vertical one is parking brake.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tjshifters.JPG)
This is a shot of the lever that goes to the bell housing, a reverser maybe? The rod is just a tad to the right of center, and running vertically.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tjcontrols_1.JPG)
These are the grapple controls, just to the right of the seat. The hydrualic lines run all over the place, so they have either been replaced, or had nowhere to be routed under the tunnel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tjwinchcontrols.JPG)
Dave
dave, i can answer your question about the levers. yes, it is obvious . it is a stright 4 speed . thal lever to the side of your tranny is a reverser it has reverse in all 4 gears. parking brake, pretty simple, that little swivel knob on top is the p-brake adjuster ( if it is not froze ) last, the lever in the middle is going stright down is hi and low on the transfer case. all the way forward is hi and back 1 notch is neautral and all the way back is low. when you use your winch, the t-case must be in neautral and your tranny gears determans your winch speeds. i use 2nd when winching,...Brandon 8)
That's cool, a multi speed winch! I have a Farmi, and I like the speed, it will be handy to be able to tailor the speed to the load. The p brake adjust works, it even has a new cable. ;D Anyone know what brand and or model of winch this might have had? I would like to get a winch back on it, if it will fit in between the grapple frames. I don't know if the winch was removed to put the grapple on or not, I think they were both on together at some point.
Update on the rearend parts: talked to the mechanic who took it apart, and he said the last owner vamoosed with them. Have to start calling around for another axle. >:(
Dave
dave, you should check 2 things when you get a rear. 1st take off the yoke going to the front end and on the end of the pinion shaft ( behind the big nut on the pinion shaft) in small print, it is stamped in , you mite have to clean it with break clean to read it is the ratio .......verry very critical. whatever you get for the back has to be the same.also somewhere on the front end should be a tag on top of the pumpkin or on the back mite be a tag. you have to determin what brand it is a eaton or rockwell. if you are not sure take a pic of the front tire and make sure we can see the hub in the center of the lugnuts ( just by looking at the planetery cover from the side we can tell you what you have )
Here is a shot of the front hub. I'll have to poke around to try and find the front ratio. I hope they are fairly standard. I know where there is an old Trojan loader with this type of axle, but I have no idea if the ratio, and width is the same. Thanks.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tjhub.JPG)
Dave
Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 27, 2007, 09:29:54 PM
That's cool, a multi speed winch! I have a Farmi, and I like the speed, it will be handy to be able to tailor the speed to the load. The p brake adjust works, it even has a new cable. ;D Anyone know what brand and or model of winch this might have had? I would like to get a winch back on it, if it will fit in between the grapple frames. I don't know if the winch was removed to put the grapple on or not, I think they were both on together at some point.
Update on the rearend parts: talked to the mechanic who took it apart, and he said the last owner vamoosed with them. Have to start calling around for another axle. >:(
Dave
Your skidder had a Eaton(Hercules) winch.
Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 27, 2007, 11:46:15 PM
Here is a shot of the front hub. I'll have to poke around to try and find the front ratio. I hope they are fairly standard. I know where there is an old Trojan loader with this type of axle, but I have no idea if the ratio, and width is the same. Thanks.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tjhub.JPG)
Dave
I'm not familiar with this type of planetary.My guess is Rockwell or Clark.?Like Brandon said we'll need to look at the #'s or tag on the axle housing itself.
Dave
I have a 205HR, and manuals covering 201-200-205-207-209-217-230. They all seem to use the same Rockewell 5-39, 7.8:1 ratio axle. It looks just like yours.
DTR
Quote from: amberwood on December 28, 2007, 05:15:38 AM
Dave
I have a 205HR, and manuals covering 201-200-205-207-209-217-230. They all seem to use the same Rockewell 5-39, 7.8:1 ratio axle. It looks just like yours.
DTR
amberwood what years does your manual cover?
mainelogger
The manuals do not really have any dates in them that I can find. The 205 is a 67".
One is a very ragged original that covers 207-, then I have a PDF downloaded "original" for the earlier models. The previous owner had replaced axles/hubs/diffs using the old manual and it seems to have been close enough to get them by. I downloaded the new one from JD just to cover myself. Rather have it than be stuck out in the bush with the wrong manual!
http://www.johndeeretechinfo.com/
DTR
Talked to Nash Equipment this morning. They didn't have a complete rear, but can make up enough parts to get me going. They said ratio should be 5.39 or 5.36. I wonder if they used a faster rear with the smaller tires?
Dave
tyre size could be the difference. Mine is fitted with the taller grader size tyres. 30*16.9?
DTR
Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 28, 2007, 07:12:59 PM
Talked to Nash Equipment this morning. They didn't have a complete rear, but can make up enough parts to get me going. They said ratio should be 5.39 or 5.36. I wonder if they used a faster rear with the smaller tires?
Dave
You should find for sure what the front has for a ratio before you buy anything.
Messed around with the skidder again today. Changed the oil, and refilled the hyd., ready to fir it up. Except the starter is bad. :( I don't think it would be too bad to change it if it wasn't down in the frame rails of the machine. I thought I was going to have to pull the DanG motor to get the starter out. A little fore thought by the TJ engineers would have made it much easier. I was really close to making some "access ports" with the torch, but found that If I spent an hour removing the entire filter housing assembly, and made a bunch of specialty wrenches, I could get it out without the torch. Timberjack must have hired an ex New Holland engineer to get something this impossible to work on. >:( >:(
Dave
Thats the prblem with engineers. They should have to work on the stuff before they are allowed to design it!!!!!
Stonebroke
Being an ex engineering manager, responsible for the hiring and firing of new engineers,I debated about jumping into this thread ;D My pet peeve was the quality of education given to new engineers, meaning that they were taught by professors who had no real world experience. A lot of mechanical eng. is seat of the pants, that's good, and let's go to the next thing, esp. if you are designing one of a kind equip. To spend the time to analize every little thing makes no economic sense. The best mechanical eng. I was able to hire were farm boys, they had the hands on and commom sense req. to do one of projects. Having said that, if you were designing a product that would be made in the thousands, or more, I'm sure a more analitical approach would be good. :D
This all can be selective however, as we were building a one of a kind machine for Delphi and their project manager ask our pipefitter to move a valve because there was limited access to the handle. His response? You change the spark plugs in my van and then tell me which is the hardest to get to. :D
Bill
I got the starter back from the shop, and put it in, and it turns over. I didn't try to start it, it's 8° F and I didn't want to burn it out on it's first time out. :D When it warms up a little, I'll put the jumpers on it and see what we get. Only an hour and a half to reassemble, I guess the cold is a motivator. ;)
Dave
Well, the TJ is finally running! 8) 8) Put the jumpers on it and gave spun it over for a bit, but it needed a sniff of ether, no surprise there. It took right off, and idles nicely, and revs like a two stroke should. I was going to take a picture of the giant cloud of blue smoke I was expecting as proof, but it never showed. ??? :P Hmm, wasn't expecting that. It puffed a little white for about 20 seconds then cleared out. There is a faint blue when you rev it, but that is OK. 8) Not bad for sitting for a couple of years. Next step: find some axle parts. Nash has some, just have to confirm the ratio.
Dave
8) 8) 8) 8)
I've got another question for the TJ owners out there: what kind of oil does the transmission(New Process) transfer case, and the axles use? I know the axles use some weight of gear oil, but not sure what, have no idea what the transfer case and trans use though. Thanks.
Dave
Dave, My manual says "EP" grade for all 3, gearbox/transfer/axle. After a quick websearch it looks the like modern equivalent for EP is a heavy duty synthetic gear oil.
DTR
Congrats on making some smoke!
Use 80w90 in everything.
I just broke both of my skidders in the same day >:(!
Gotta love this below 0 weather.
So Dave do you have a running two wheel drive TJ or do you still have the transfer case out?
Stonebroke
Wauy to go Dave 8).I used 80-90w in mine but I have 55 gals of special machine oil I'm going to put in the transfer case as the oil is like honey so I feel it will stick to the gears better and get all the way up to the top gears.
Mainelogger, how did you break the skidders? I've heard horror stories of loggers up in the REAL cold places twist off drivetrains because of -30 deg weather :o .
The transfer case is still out. I have to get the high-neutral-low shifter working. I also think it is leaking oil, so I may have to regoop some of the mating surfaces, but I won't know until I get it cleaned up. I think I have a couple of pails of gear oil around, I'll have to go look. Thanks.
Dave
dave, i use 80-90 or anything equilvint. i just get a pail or to from napa. if you talk to nash equipment, if you have any tomberjack question, the guy ronnie in parts is the you want to talk to he is a walking tj encylipedia, he helped me alot, i still call him up to ask him questions. he is alot of help. i also there is another guy around keene n.h. who sells new and used skidder parts, p b e equipment. there are on rt9/202
Yes, I have talked to Ronnie. I have to get the axle ratio off the front pinion shaft, then I will call him back to order parts, hopefully tomorrow.
The skidder starts up on it's own now, don't need to jump it or sniff it (it is warm though). I hooked all the hydraulic lines back up and all the functions work properly. That grapple sure is a ways up in the air! I am guessing you would want to skid with it a little lower, that's a lot of leverage.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/runningtj.JPG)
It is all for naught, I found out this afternoon. The landowner where I was going to log wasn't doing too well last month, and when her daughter found out, she swooped in and put everything into a trust, and put the brakes on the logging. >:( >:( The landowner says she still wants it logged, but even so, I might be stepping into quicksand if I pursue this one. :o
Dave
Most of the differentials in trucks and heavy equipment in the cold parts of the country are now using an 80W-90 synthetic gear oil. Much better in cold weather but it ain't cheap.
yes, thats what i use, ( 80/90 )
Quote from: Ed_K on January 06, 2008, 08:50:45 AM
Wauy to go Dave 8).I used 80-90w in mine but I have 55 gals of special machine oil I'm going to put in the transfer case as the oil is like honey so I feel it will stick to the gears better and get all the way up to the top gears.
Mainelogger, how did you break the skidders? I've heard horror stories of loggers up in the REAL cold places twist off drivetrains because of -30 deg weather.
Well,it just seems you always find your worn parts a little quicker when it's that cold.
I was having a issue with my reverse box on my 230 but I hoped I could milk her for a couple more days then the transfer started kicking out of gear.While I was freezing trying to figure that out when the guy I had using my 380 called and said it was a dead horse back in the woods .From what I,ve been told the fiber drive is broke in the transmission.
Soooo.. I have both of them sitting side by side in the shop.230 has transmission and transfer out and I'm pulling the engine in the 380 to get to the tranny in the 380 tommorow.
I found a lubrication chart on the ceiling of the crash cage, it says 90# for all axles, transfer case and transmission.
I have been having a heck of a time trying to figure out the front axle ratio. I found a tag, but it appears they stamped everything but the ratio. :( :( Here is a shot of the tag:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/rockwelltag.JPG)
The model is PR 68 NX 14
I tried to read the end of the pinion shaft, but I don't think that is going to happen with the axle in the skidder. Is there a way to count the revolutions of the driveshaft per revolution of the wheels? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. I will be calling Ron at Nash this week, fingers crossed. ;D
Dave
Quote from: Dave Shepard on January 13, 2008, 04:36:35 PM
Is there a way to count the revolutions of the driveshaft per revolution of the wheels?
Yes you can. For exp. 3.73 means the pinion turns 3.73 times to the ring gears one revolution. Or 3 and not quite 3/4 turns.
The tricky part is making sure the tires are both turning equally.
The way I have done it in the past is lift the tires off the ground so both turn free.
Then stick a wire in the ground to use as a pointer on both tires. Mark the tire were the wire is.
Now make a mark on the pinion and housing. Turn the pinion and count, watching for the marks on the tires to line up with the wires.
If both tires and wires do not line up when done, you do not have a good reading.
Hope this makes sense? If not tell me what doesn't and I will try a better explantion.
Wally
Reddog
Do as you say, but keep one tire from spinning, and count just the free tire. Take half of its revolutions...
beenthere, that was kinda what I was thinking. I just don't know how close I have to be. Ron at Nash said it was probably 5.36 or 5.39 to 1. That is too close to "guesstimate" the ratio. If it was the difference between say 5 to 1 and 7 to 1, that wouldn't be hard at all. I will try to get a rough idea, and see what he says. Thanks.
Dave
Quote from: beenthere on January 13, 2008, 07:04:08 PM
Reddog
keep one tire from spinning
If it's got a locked or limited slip differential like many skidders do that'll be hard ;) :)
If this things got limited slip, it is going to be great for pulling the tractors out of the mud come plowing season. ;) :D
Dave
If it was mine. I would make sure it was 5.3? then put a 5.39 in the rear. If the front is .36 it will just pull a little more.
Or you can pull the front axle and the dif out and count gear teeth.
Another thought, if you can see the ring gear teeth thru the fill or drain hole. Mark one and turn it and count teeth. If you have that number, they should be able to match it.
You want any more arm chair help tonight? :D :D
My 230 has no slip at all 8) Makes it fun with a lot of speed in mud to turn sharp it won't :D :D
Reddod, it's free, right? :D :D I didn't think of that. I would just have to avoid the drip of gear goop every three seconds. ;) Might also be able to see in the fill hole. Might not be able to see anything if we get a bunch of snow. >:( It starts right up and the hydraulics are tight. I left the blade in the air since the last time I posted about it and the blade didn't settle at all. 8) When it's all together and it warms up this spring, I'll borrow a steam cleaner and see what leaks. I think it is going to be fairly tight.
Dave
I try to make sure tire size and every thing is the exact same ???If they aren't and you were to go on pavement it is gunna be bad :'( All four my tires turn the same all time .Some brand skidders Franklin for one had a switch to unlock the front end
My Mule has a locked rearend and a differential lock for the front. I worked with an old C4 Treefarmer once that had a limited slip front and a locker in the rear :)
i thkn i meigh tbe able to help ya a little .. i havent been on a in a long time so i sorta skipped a little of this but anyway .. my guess by lookin at the cage and bein that its a gs model its suwehre in the 73 and newer. we have a 225 and had a 240 d my pap sed sumthin bout there a dgs model but i gess tehy put d for short or sumthin i dont know ..it definaely had a reverserbox and we run 80 90 wieght gear oil in all the gear boxes
dave , just pull off the front yoke , 2 u-bolts, and 1 bolt in the middle of the yoke, slide off the yoke , use a rag and wipe off the end of the shaft the yoke was on and it will be stamped in the shaft . no guess work and no bs. on what the ratio is , it will be in front of you , about 10 to 15 min work. ron is 100% right, it is 1 or the other..... very critical. i have been there before.
dave a little tip for takin the shaft off.. a 3/4 drive impact is the easiest way put it in from the back then reach in the front and pull it up to the front.. and there should be a washer be hind the nut somtimes grease and mud getspacked in there and you cant see it and if ya drop the shaft and it pops out then ya gotta look for it and its a whole big thing .. been there done that ;D so you might wanna get it out and lay it to the side so you know you have it ;D have fun
timberjack 240
Ron from Nash said the numbers are on the end of the pinion shaft, and all I have to remove is the driveshaft. He didn't say anything about removing the yoke. I won't have a chance to mess with it until the weekend anyway. I wish TJ had put a couple of removable plates in strategic locations, it would really help working on this thing.
Dave
The numbers are indeed stamped in the end of the pinion shaft. But that didn't stop me from pulling the front axle off. ;)
De-tired:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tj1.JPG)
De-axled:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tj3.jpg)
Ready for tear-down and inspection:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tj4.jpg)
I want to inpect the axle for damage, now is the time to get any parts it might need, not after we have ordered all the parts for the rear axle. There is no oil in the diff or final drives. >:( We have a loader at work we are probably going to scrap that has the same axles, if we can srounge the final drives and maybe the axles, then we only have to buy the differential from a junk yard, I will need to be able to verify that they are a match, another reason to drop the axle. I think the biggest pain is going to be reinstalling the driveshaft. Oh, it's 5.39 to1 ;)
Dave
Pulled the finals and differential, good thing I did. There is a dent in the front of the axle housing that is rubbing on the ring gear, nearly chewed all the way through. I'll have to knock it back and weld up the scar. Finals were very clean and tight, but almost completely dry. :( I'll run all the pieces through the parts washer. The pinion shaft feels like it might be a little loose, don't know how to check the pre-load on the bearings. :-\ It is either a solid front axle, or has some kind of locker not sure which. I am starting to get excited about getting it all back together again. 8) Spun over twice and popped right off. 8) 8)
Dave
Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 28, 2007, 07:12:59 PM
Talked to Nash Equipment this morning. They didn't have a complete rear, but can make up enough parts to get me going. They said ratio should be 5.39 or 5.36. I wonder if they used a faster rear with the smaller tires?
Dave
The parts man at Nash is a treasure trove of information and a true gentleman. Ive had nothing but excellent luck dealing with him.
ronnie at nash equipment is the man!!!!
I will be talking to Ronnie again this week, we are ready to order the parts to get the rear axle back together. 8) Yesterday I heated up the dent in the axle housing and welded up the big gouge. You'll have to excuse the welding, I was standing on the cable and didn't get the last weld off to a very good start. :D Ooops. To the left of the weld was the big dent. Didn't quite have enough heat to do it, but it'll suffice. ;)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tjaxleweld.jpg)
Dave
Need to figure out where the hydraulic filter is on the old beast. Only place I can see would be in the front near the pump, there is a cover big enough to hide a filter. Am I on the right track? Anyone have any idea what number filter? Thanks.
When I went to NAPA for the engine oil filter the guy gave me a hard time because he couldn't look up a Timberjack. ::) I told him to look up 3-53, couldn't be simpler than that. I like Cummins, but Detroit sure is all about being simple. ;) Too bad they have such oil allergies.
Dave
You're on the right track Dave,Make sure you vent the tank before you take the cover off.
Thanks. I'll poke around in there this afternoon. :)
Dave
Pretty impressive Dave. We're still up to our pockets in snow here , it looks like spring in your pictures.
It's been downright pleasant most days, but still in the low teens at night.
Tore the transfer case apart this evening. It's got a siezed up needle bearing on the hi/lo gear, but otherwise in good shape. I've got to figure out what number the seals are. It looks like I could make it selectable between two and four wheel drive by adding a shifting yoke.
Dave
Yes you could Dave.It shows that these transfers weren't designed just for skidders.I've broke my rear drive shaft before and these things will barely move even on flat ground without 4 wheel drive.
If you ever have problems with your transfer kicking out of gear you can switch the hi-lo gear with the 4x4 gear and save yourself from having to buy a new one.Actually if you have it apart now you should check it.
Dave,
Eastern bearing in Manchester NH is a great source for bearings and seals by size if you don't have parts numbers.
I got the hydraulic filter dug out, but no numbers on it. :-\ Went rooting around underneath with a bar and dug out a 40 pound oil/mud/dirt chunk that hadn't thawed out yet. I'll have to steam clean this thing before it goes into service. Turns out all the gauges work and it charges too. 8) Going to try and finish putting the parts list together tonight, can't wait to get it buttoned up and take it for a spin.
Dave
dave , if you end up getting your hyd filter from a local autoparts store, napa, carquest etc, etc, if you could, let us know the #"s if you could please ;D
Looked up the skidder in the Carquest book. Didn't list a hyd for the 205-208, but did have a number for 225 230 and 240. I didn't look to see if they are the same number or not. I'll ask for a number when I speak to Ron at Nash.
I have put in a parts request at Nash, last time I talked Ron said he was pretty sure they had everything I would need. He has complete seal and gasket kits for the t-case. All I need to fix that is a double row needle bearing, to chicken to chance it with the one that's in there.
Axle ratio turned out to be 7.80 to 1. The 5.36 is 5 pinion teeth, 36 ring teeth.
Dave
Just looked up Colebrook NH on the map, hope I don't need a pass port to get home! :o Mapquest says 5 hours 20 minutes and 293.77 miles!
Dave
How much does that 208 weigh? ???
I'm guessing around 8 tons. I think the ROPS is rated for just over 19,000 lb machine, so it must be under that.
Dave
Parts should be on their way this week or next. 8) 8) 8) 8) Hopefully it'll be done by early september.
Dave
Well, unfortunately, it took us so long to get up to NH, that Nash had to sell some of our parts to someone else. First come first serve. So, now we are on the hunt again. Anyone have any leads for parts in the Northeast? Thanks. I'm going to try R. Chiasson and Son now.
Dave
Has anyone ever told you that the grapple maybe an EZ grapple that was manufactured (I think) in Waycross, Georgia? It looks similar to what we used. These were added onto skidders as an aftermarket attachment. We owned several of them in the seventies mounted on 225 and 230 TJs.
Welcome badluck! No, nobody has ever suggested that. It could very well be, we thought it was a factory special order from TJ. It was originally bought by a utility company for pulling in the poles for high tension lines, we thought they ordered a bunch of them like that. Perhaps they had them setup that way after market.
Dave
I researched a little more and found that the company is called Ace Equipment Co. Their website does not show any skidder grapples for sale. Could have parts for these grapples. Go to www.aceequipment.com They are located in Blackshear, Georgia. We used these grapples on the small TJ skidder, because we were getting into mechanized felling(clearcuts and 1st thinnings) and you could use these skidders either way (grapple or cable) very easy. The grapple could be hung up behind the fairlead and was not in the way of the chokers.
Thanks, I'll go check it out. The winch has been cut off of this one, but I want to replace it.
No luck finding axle parts so far. Almost had one last week, but didn't get to it in time, they parted it out. :(
Dave
Have you tried W&W Tractor in Moncks Corner, S.C.?
W&W is pretty good. Johnny Ward is a good fella. Also try Texas Timberjack as they can fab the shaft for you from one of several machine shops they use to make the parts, especially those no longer available. Deere has cut them off for certain things from what I understand so Texas TJ has found aftermarket alternative parts for most of the TJ components their customers need.
Happy Logging!
Got a chance to play around with the Timber Jack today. The rear axle has to go to a shop mid-state so they can start finding pieces for it. I've been in no rush to get it done, but I do want it out of my yard. :D This should be the final part to get removed, it's all back together from here. 8) I put jumpers on it and it roared to life after only a couple of turns. It's a good runner, that's for sure. I think, in comparison, that I am making good progress on this project, I'm only about a year and a half into it, and about half done, which is quite an unheard of rate of progress for one of my projects. ;D
Removing the axle was easy. I removed the bolts, and jacked the rear up with the grapple. I steadied it with the hoe, although it was solid enough. I rolled the axle clear of the machine on the tires.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tj1.jpg)
I then raised the grapple up and rolled the axle out. It kind of looks like I left the machine in the wrong part of town too long. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tj2.jpg)
It rolls easy enough. I plan on reinstalling the same way. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/tj3%7E0.jpg)
Hi there,
long time ago, I had a 208. It was bad work to fix it, but I made it. My one was from 1968 and in Germany it was a big problem to get the right parts. He had a Ford engine, its blow up two times. After that I took a Mercedes engine in and its still works.
When I bought the Timber Jack it was orange and had single winch. I put a double winch on it.
I hope you show pictures when you ready. Good luck.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19511/scan0003.jpg)
Bob, we are always ready for more. I'm curious as to the Germany reference and your location says Missouri. And your grammar speaks of Deutsch also. Tell us more. ;D
At first, my English is not good, I'm sorry.
It's one year ago, that I came to the USA.
In my old home country I had worked in the forestry, logging, harvesting, everything around timber . To repair forest equipment was one part of the training in the forest school.
I feel very happy that I learned this for my own.
Now I'm living in mid-west and I hope I can move more up to the north.
If you want, look at my gallery you will find more picture from logging in Germany.
Your English is better than some Americans so don't sweat it...
Welcome to the neighborhood....
Welcome Bob1! I will certainly post more pictures as the work progresses.
Welcome Bob, what part of Germany are you from?
looks like you moved to a nice lake. i only been on it once had fun. welcome aboard
Thanks for Welcome.
I came from the middle of Germany. You hear about the Loreley?
@semologger
Well is nice over here, but I miss the wintertime with a lot of snow and here are not so many Logging Companies. This is my problem, so I decided to move in the north. First step: sell my house, find a new home (same wooded acres) for us and our 30 sled dogs and maybe a Logging Company with job opening. I'm missing the work in the forest.
Bob1,welcome to the forum.Good luck with your move.Come to Maine.you won't be missing snow come February. ;D
Bob1, Does that TJ have dual winches on it ???
I looked up Loreley, that is pretty neat. I saw you're not too far from Mainz. I had some family live over there and my ancestors on both sides came from an area very close.
The old tj pullin wood yet. I've heard the planetarys can be pretty weak.my grand father had a brand new 208. told me rub a stump the wrong way your replacing a planetary. I new a guy who put 230 front and rear ends housings and all on his 208. made a nice small rugged machine.
Maybe I could trade my good, rare, front axle for a pair of 230 axles. ;D
maybe you can work something out with nash? just an idea. they are pretty knowledgeable. but shakey to do business with at best.
Still working on sourcing parts. Put an old battery in it today and it fired right up. Runs great. Maybe I can find everything I need soon.
Dave . I have very much enjoyed this thread . I have a 330 TJ that is in a various stage of not being together . It's about 600 miles away in Southeast . . . This is really an amazing thread for me mine is a cable / line skidder . The graples on yours would be Great .
Line skid bunching before freeze up then swing with the grapple . . I hope u have a line on your rear end parts . What happened to the skirts ? I'm not much or a mechanic so all the pics and explainations are very helpful . Thanks everyone .
Finally some progress on the skidder project. The rear axle tube is going to go to a mechanic that used to work on this machine years ago. He says he can get the parts no problem. When the axle comes back complete, I'll put it in along with the front axle, which only needs a pinion seal at this point. Well, it doesn't need the pinion seal, but it will never be any easier to put one in. :D
Glad to hear you are making progress.
I just read some of this thread, my father bought a 208 brand new in the early 70's, those rockwell rears and planetarys are like glass !!! he lost 5 rear right side planetarys with in a 5 month period. we finally figured out the wheel bearings were never tightened properly from the factory on that side. those bearings need to be "TIGHT" or you will have a world of problems!! The best thing to do is yank them out and put in a set of Eaton front and rear axles, i had a 79 230 that i had and ran hard for 4 years and never had any differential problems. Your machine originally had a Hercules winch on it they are nice little winches when they are adjusted right. I think you might be disapointed when you start using that grapple ,i doubt you will keep the front end down,that frame is pretty short for a grapple most early converted cable skidders to grapple had the rear frame extended a couple feet. I do hope you have good luck with it ,it will work O.K. if you load it real light. Don
We only have light use planned for it anyway, both to extend the life of the axles and to compensate for the poor geometry of the grapple.
Dave, If you need parts, Harolds logging supply in Hampden Maine used to have a bunch of Timberjack stuff,real accomadating even get parts on sunday ,as long as theres not a nascar race on. ;D he used to have all kinds of rebuilt axles,transmissions, and transfer cases for Timberjacks. Don
I hope you are not to old by the time you have it all running :D. We want to see some wood behind it
I know this skidder. It sat at the Yonkers hunt club for a long time. I tried to buy it years ago. It belonged to a good friend of mine that died in a logging accident in Ghent, Vatatie area. His name was Tom Elliot. He was a good man. Good luck with the skidder. Let me know if you decide to sell it.
is that a custom grapple machine or a factory arch and grapple?
The grapple was added by Niagra Mohawk to move poles for the big transmission lines. Axles and t case will be back this week, hope to have it together over the weekend.
Progress. Came home today to find one axle and the T case ( both rebuilt) sitting in front of the skidder. Awaiting the other axle and the helpers to put them back in. :D
Both axles are in the machine has moved ahead 3'. :D
Now that it's rolling again, maybe we can attack that last bunch of backhouse bush growing up against the garage. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/2012-11-11_08-59-42_38.jpg)
Finished, and on the job. I've got a short video loading now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/2012-12-22_12-22-37_892.jpg)
The End!
Quote from: Dave Shepard on December 22, 2012, 06:41:10 PM
Finished, and on the job. I've got a short video loading now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14240/2012-12-22_12-22-37_892.jpg)
Sweet! Long time getting there, hope it all works for you! Nice looking old skidder! I worked a hundred years ago for a guy that had a 440b JD grapple skidder! Worked like it should as long as you treated it right! :)
The End!
Finally up and running. ;D Hopefully I can get some better footage when they figure out how to use the other half of the throttle pedal. ;)
http://youtu.be/8LKNh_E0KJQ
WOW That looks great. Very well done... :new_year:
Nicely Done.
Nice lil skidder!
I just read every post in this thread. That was quite a project. Looks great and well done.
looks great.
great job, nice painting job too, looks great. i need a arch and grapple like that for mine.
Very nice indeed!
Well done!
I put a block heater on the 'Jack this week. Adventure begins here. (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,72829.0.html)
Looks great, way to stick with it. Another jack back on track.
David l
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29166/016%7E0.JPG)
Nice job, hope to see some action shots of it in the woods!
A winch! A winch! My kingdom for a winch!
The grapple is nice for clearing, or if you can drop stuff right next to your skid trail, but I've got my eye on some nice fat pine and I can't grapple them. >:( And I don't think the Farmi is going to stand a chance either. >:( >:(
How big are the pines? I think I could move some good size 16 footors with my Norse,3 pt winch. But the 40 hp tractor would not move them. These were around 3 feet and bigger. Snow on the ground should make it even easier. Or is it a up hill twitch? :o
Or the way we use to do it before the winch,4-5 16 foot chains. Sometimes we would have all 5 hooked together and only be able to move about 8 feet.
They are about 30" DBH, maybe a couple are bigger. Problem is I will need to drag the whole tree, or probably close to 100' of it anyway, far enough to get it with the skidder. Some might get taken as 12' logs, but I'm waiting to hear on a couple of 45' timber orders. I might try and see if I can fell them towards the skidder, that would get me 100' closer. ;D
Cat chokers and cable slings/chains for extension.
Not the fastest, but it works for a few sticks. :)
I don't have a straight enough shot to do that. I'd have to pull around another tree, and I'm not sure I would have enough traction. I might be able to use a block and the Farmi, but I would still have to add chain to the block to get the distance I need.
No one you can borrow a length of cable from for the Farmi?
A friend of mine has some. I got the one butt log out that I took down the other day. I might be able to get everything I want with what I've got. I think it's going to be about the weather now. Still plenty of snow in the woods for nice skidding. Going to go at it again tomorrow.
Anyone get into the NP transmission on a 'Jack? This one has some issues, especially with 3rd gear. It is hard to get it into 3rd, and if you don't very carefully move to neutral, it will stay in gear. Sometimes it will do that in 2nd as well. Just wondering if there was an easy fix, like pulling the top off and changing out something on the cover.
My buddy has the same issue on a 230a. The shifter is worn