Basic question for you guys that saw dim. lumber all the time. What's your technique?
In my part of the country there are virtually no conifers (other than ERC) so sawing dimension lumber is pretty much non-existent. Once in a while some oak trailer decking gets cut, but even that is often odd size.
I just sawed a little hackberry yesterday that I thought I'd use for the floor & sides on a carry-all for the back of a tractor. (not sure if it will hold up but we'll see)
Not a big deal to square up a cant to get a couple of stacks of 2 x 6's out of, but is there a simple method to figure your cuts if you want a mix of sizes out of a log?....or are you just better off cutting all one size and saw some smaller dim lumber out the flitches if you can get some?
I'm not sure about easy, but easy enough I reckon. Now this will make many folks kindof cringe the way I did it, but it for sure made good boards, Now if you know how many you will need, making the cant sized up and drop cutting is as good as a way as any, but if you want to get say some 2x 4's, 6's and even 8's all out of one log, then the way I did it is such: I would go ahead and make my drop cuts to the desired number, say, mine was 1-5/8", now, I would proceed with this on the first two sides, and now on the third face, I would see how the sweep of the log looks, many times it does not matter, other times it can bite you. I then would go to either 9-1/2" or sometimes 10" for 2x4's and 2x6's, then once I'm at that number, flip to the 4th face and make the 1-5/8" drops through, then I would take these flitches and make the 4's and 6's out of them, now the reason for the heavier (over sized ) flitch was to take the trim cuts to remove the stress (if) any, out, to reduce the possible crooking of the boards, I would trim cut the 4"s leave clamped then take the 4" off, then you are left with a heavy 6, two more trims to bring to size, sounds like a lot of trimming, but it makes good boards, mixing up the combo numbers for 4's and 8's, or 6's and 8's, or any other you need is all done the same way. I've just found that going straight to the number so many times has just produced crooked boards that are a pain to build with, just my way, thought I would share,, since you asked,
I should have previewed,, so just to add, and I'm sure you already knew, but some may not and it may have sounded confusing, the first two cuts are just slabbing cuts, face opening cuts, to a 4 or maybe 6" face, I figured this was a known, but had to say it anyway, hope this helps,
Thanks,
Might take me a bit to think through the process, but with a little experience i'm sure it will make more sense.
My system is pretty much the same as drobertson. It was just the system that I came up with when I started, I didn't even realize it was helping to reduce the stress and keeping my boards straight.
D6c, after you do it once it will all click. In a nut shell the first 2 sides, you just squaring up by cutting slabs of a usable thickness. The third side is the one where you do your math. Say with full dimension 2x6, on the third side I'll figure slabs that will leave me at, lets say 18 1/4. Once I get there, I drop down to 12 1/8, then down to 6". Then flip the three can't up and start peeling off 3 2x6's with each cut and giggle watching the off bearer try to keep up.
Do you always rough cut to full dim? For ex: cut full 2" x 4" and plane to 1 1/2 x 3 1/2"
...Or for utility lumber do you saw to finished size? For my purposes I was rough sawing some boards right to 1 1/2" x 5 1/2".
I wasn't concerned with shrink or planing because of what it was going to be used for.
I can see how cutting oversize to nominal inch makes doing the math in you head a little easier.
It really boils down to what the plans you have for the lumber, I for a long time have used an 1/8" over for SYP on the thickness and widths. This was just because I sawed for folks building sheds and barns and such on a limited budget for the most part, and these numbers matched up with lumber yard boards when the logs did not fill the order, which often times happens once the building and changes begin. Window I've found to be the big changes in builds,,and rightly so, windows could be framed in with nice flush transitions for interior finishing. But after a few bigger builds with longer spans and wider truss and beam components, I've discovered that if the folks let the lumber stacks air out longer, the widths will shrink more, and for this reason, after measuring the boards and knowing where the began, I started using 1/4" oversize for 6" and above. For around these parts at least, air dried SYP dried up nicely for (rough) builds) and no, there is no planing of the boards, they just go up, fastened and done. Oaks, now at times, follows pretty close, but then again, its wood, it changes, how and where its grown, moist conditions, dry? for air dried fab work,,it really is and boils down to experience and luck of the draw,, saw plenty, over the estimated build material list. this is kinda SOP anyway,
I never saw oversize with the intention to re-saw or plane.
I saw it however the customer asks me to. I just used full dimension in the example for easy math. The extra 1/8s are for the blade kerf.
10-4 on what folks want, but what they have when the build starts is two different animals,. many folks just don't care, I'm thinking they just don't know, and they have learned how to build with (rough sawn) lumber. I sawed a pretty big job for a Vietnam vet some years back, his comment was, " if folks cant build with whats available, they maybe should not be building at all," well once I was done, he shook his head, and said, I did not know it was possible,,,I'm just saying anyone with a mill can turn logs into lumber, but "user friendly lumber" is another topic all by itself,,some folks get it, some folks don't, and the over size comment,, well, when questions are asked, I answer, and sometimes I offer without being asked. Around these parts, 1/8" over will match some of the crap from the lumber yards, but if green is cut to the final number, it will surely be under and the wider the board, the more under size it will be when dried out..
Hey D6c,
I saw with a swing mill so its all dimension lumber
Softwoods I saw at full dimensions, 2x4, 4x4...etc
Hardwood I will often add an 1/8 to the dimension
I have a small handful of crafters who purchase the hardwoods I saw
and many appreciate the extra for planning/finishing
D
With a swing blade or a well tuned bandmill the s-green dimensions would be fine;
http://cwc.ca/wood-products/lumber/visually-graded/dimension-lumber-sizes/
This is an overview of another method that works better with hardwood or logs with more stress like plantation pine;
https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fplrp479.pdf
Quote from: Magicman on December 11, 2017, 01:56:39 PM
I never saw oversize with the intention to re-saw or plane.
You never have intentions of doing anything with what you saw....you leave it. :D :D :D
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on December 11, 2017, 07:51:28 PM
Quote from: Magicman on December 11, 2017, 01:56:39 PM
I never saw oversize with the intention to re-saw or plane.
You never have intentions of doing anything with what you saw....you leave it. :D :D :D
There is more to this than meets the eye, just saying, it stinks to have crooked boards, no matter how many you might have, and from my experience, at least around here, folks have (X) amount of logs, and need, I said Need! what they need to get the job done without a lot of waste,, its never a saw'em and leave em' situation here,, just saying,,no joking, no ill intent, just saying, folks that know, know, those that don't, well they just don't,,and I reckon they get buy because its' all they've ever known, hard to say, the way we see it out this way is useable lumber is full length,
Pretty, scarry to go against the grain aint' it,? well, just saying,it is what it is,,I don't care about saw'em and leave em, around here, many times I help to build, I don't much care for, well lets say, culls?
Over here I cut full size lumber, What all my customers want, they use LVL joist hangers if they need hangers. I box the heart and go. I don't have time to resaw, I get it right the first time.
When someone sees what they're working with their good.
What ever you cut just be the same on all of it, don't jump around with extra.
Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 11, 2017, 09:06:05 PM
Over here I cut full size lumber, What all my customers want, they use LVL joist hangers if they need hangers. I box the heart and go. I don't have time to resaw, I get it right the first time.
When someone sees what they're working with their good.
What ever you cut just be the same on all of it, don't jump around with extra.
getting the numbers right when sawing is not the issue, its when it lays, then things go haywire, anyone who builds knows this,,taking stress out of green sawn boards can be time consuming, but, it sure makes for better user friendly materials, like I said, most folks are so use to the same ole same ole, they just don't know the difference till they see it..
I know what you saying droberson,
My business is growing with what I'm cutting, ;D
They make hangers for full cut 2x material
The supply yard I buy from stocks them
Full 2x very popular in these parts
Visiting any local yard here in OR and you can find boards with saw marks that the planner didn't get. The boards are green too. I cut 1 5/8" minus the saw blade and get slightly over 1 1/2" which will fit common joist hangers. Like mentioned above it all depends on what you want to do with it and I think commonly available hardware speaks really loud about what you size you should be cutting. My 2 cents.
I always cut wider than finished width. When milling down through a cant, for 2 X 4's for example, I cut 2 x 5's, then trim off both sides, four or five boards at a time.
I didn't know two inch hangers were available, Thanks.
2" hangers are available, but nail guns won't shoot nails long enough to face nail 2" lumber, if that matters to the end user.
All I do is dimension.
Basic technique is to pull the smallest log that can cut what I want today and hack it and everything that won't make target size goes to whatever other sizes it'll make and put into stock. Stock is important when you're in the dimension game: it's a leg up on the next order.
Grab the next smallest log and repeat.
Try and use logs with a diameter 3x target width when backsawing. Makes for less cup down the road.
Always leave the best logs till last. Invariably they will cut something better and if you hack them today chasing 6x2's you can bet tomorrow you'll get an order for 8's and be trying to pull them from thin air.
And repeat.
And repeat.
And repeat.
Any time I saw dimension lumber if the customer wants "store bought" sizes I saw it 1/8" over on each plane to allow for any drying shrinkage. A 2x4 is sawn at 3 5/8 x 1 5/8. I do the same for anything I'm sawing for my own use. I mill lots of framing lumber for sheds and barns from Poplar and it works out pretty much right on when it dries.
btulloh hit a nail on da head, full dimension takes a full nail, commons, not box or sinker. Green lumber prefers deformed shanks, rings or spirals, and preferably hardened.
The saw marks in dressed lumber are graded as hit or miss OR as hit and miss and is limited to depth and degree within a grade.
From memory a regular hanger has a 1-1/2" opening, lvl/engineered- 1-3/4" and rough sawn- 2" opening in the Simpson hangers.
There are no Simpson StrongTie connector/hangers available in my area other than 1½", 3" (for stacking two), 3½", and 5½". There are no hangers available for full sized 2", 4", etc.
In my entire sawing "career" I have only sawn full sized framing lumber twice and that was for customers matching some older construction.
I reckon I got all side ways again,,, I thought the question was what and how to saw out dimension lumber,, for me at least dimension lumber means widths and thicknesses like one might find at the lumber yards, for building with.. I've sawed plenty of full size for folks,, I just felt like it was a waste, unless of course it was to match up to existing structures. In this case and one job in particular had this very requirement. It's why having a mill is so sweet, there are no limitations to what can be produced. But for the standard dimensional numbers as I understand them, an 1/8 over will fit the brackets, and hangers, and then shrink up nicely to lumber yard stock, from what I've seen, the widths is where it gets tricky, from what I've witnessed, the boards shrink more on width than they do on thickness, If plan sawn.
In any case, if the folks using or buying it are happy, well then nuff, said, and it needs not to be said again, but I will,
I miss my mill!!
I built my barn out of full dimension rough sawn lumber...very strong
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26820/FB_IMG_1508840562533.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1513157453)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/26820/20171103_154247.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1513157537)
Sizeways what we do here - and hey we do things the "right" way :D is a bit different
Country went to metric in 1972 and I think things like 4" x 2" x 4.5m instead of 100 x 50 x 4.5 but thats pretty common across the industry here still.
We can assign a grade at 20% MC for framing and most building timber is used green.
6 x 2 is a rough sawn GOS (Green off saw) size.
Mostly it gets used as "sized" so sizing is cutting/dressing the edges to straighten and so the width is consistent across a parcel at +/- 1/16". Sized your 6x2 comes back to 5 9/16 x 2.
Exposed green framing is usually DAR so we're now at 5 9/16 x 1 5/8.
KD or seasoned framing would be later dressed out to 5½ x1½ to allow for shrinkage.
Dont really matter what size you cut if it's what the customer wants. The main thing is to have it straight and consistent for size because if you can do that then they keep coming back for more. There mostly isnt a whole lot of money in cutting dimension per piece but there can be a whole lot of volume if you can get it right and that little bit, little bit, little bit stuff adds up. For me its the backbone of my business because its the month on month cashflow that keeps the place ticking over and turns the specialty timbers and cabinet/joinery stuff that are high value/low volume into cream.
I agree! Depends on the customer! Box store and lumberyard sizes are dominant around here. Has anyone tried installing wire brushes on their wheels to brush off dust and chips, especially when cutting mostly pine? Keeping my wheel belts clean is a huge problem for me on my Woodmizer!
Great barn! Did you nail up green from the saw or dry First, and if dry, how long? Is this pine or what, looks like poplar!
Welcome Shutterman :)
I agree, give them what they want.
Sometimes they might need a little education to temper what they think they want :D Just part of the job.
If you do need other simpson hangers, if the store is selling the regular ones they can have anything from the catalog in a few days. The same is true if they carry one of the other brands. They stock what moves but they can get any of it pretty quick. When you're building houses there is always a dozen of this oddball connector or that. I've got one house up the road with California seismic anchors... give em what they want.
I myself like to full size lumber. No way would I even think of using joist hanger for full size lumber. ::) Full size lumber has The Look. I built Brenda a Women Cave using full size lumber. It has The Look,and many have said the same.
Quote from: Shutterman007 on December 13, 2017, 09:10:14 AM
I agree! Depends on the customer! Box store and lumberyard sizes are dominant around here. Has anyone tried installing wire brushes on their wheels to brush off dust and chips, especially when cutting mostly pine? Keeping my wheel belts clean is a huge problem for me on my Woodmizer!
Great barn! Did you nail up green from the saw or dry First, and if dry, how long? Is this pine or what, looks like poplar!
I made a shield to bounce the sawdust off before it hit my drive wheel.
When I was cutting pine the dust would shoot between the wheel and
the blade packing it in. Now I don't have that problem. I used 1/4" thick
rubber for the shield.
Quote from: Shutterman007 on December 13, 2017, 09:10:14 AM
Great barn! Did you nail up green from the saw or dry First, and if dry, how long? Is this pine or what, looks like poplar!
Thanks! I did sticker the Southern Yellow Pine lumber for a couple of weeks before I put it together, but I have built plenty straight off the saw! I'm not too picky about my own barns!
I'm going to try this again, and not to sound to much like ole festus hagen, but it stands to reason he may have had a point in this conversation.. and I believe it would be something on this order,, Now if the feller was a asking,,how to get a bunch of differn' size boards from one log, and they was to be like the ones you might get from the yard in town,,then just how did uin's go bout get'n them thare boards out that thare log? don't ya see, it's a straight up question on logs and differing boards sizes, not what outfit that has or don't have them thare hangers,,how uins gettn' them differn. boards from them thar logs,,? just asking don't cha see?
Quote from: drobertson on December 14, 2017, 06:29:51 PM
I'm going to try this again, and not to sound to much like ole festus hagen, but it stands to reason he may have had a point in this conversation.. and I believe it would be something on this order,, Now if the feller was a asking,,how to get a bunch of differn' size boards from one log, and they was to be like the ones you might get from the yard in town,,then just how did uin's go bout get'n them thare boards out that thare log? don't ya see, it's a straight up question on logs and differing boards sizes, not what outfit that has or don't have them thare hangers,,how uins gettn' them differn. boards from them thar logs,,? just asking don't cha see?
:D
That's funny, I build my floor systems with a "bond timber" what the old carpenters used to call it, don't need no hangers that way, and strong. Joists and rafters are "toe nailed " in place and sit on top of the "bond timber ". I'll take a picture tomorrow
Quote from: Lawg Dawg on December 14, 2017, 08:31:46 PM
Quote from: drobertson on December 14, 2017, 06:29:51 PM
I'm going to try this again, and not to sound to much like ole festus hagen, but it stands to reason he may have had a point in this conversation.. and I believe it would be something on this order,, Now if the feller was a asking,,how to get a bunch of differn' size boards from one log, and they was to be like the ones you might get from the yard in town,,then just how did uin's go bout get'n them thare boards out that thare log? don't ya see, it's a straight up question on logs and differing boards sizes, not what outfit that has or don't have them thare hangers,,how uins gettn' them differn. boards from them thar logs,,? just asking don't cha see?
:D
That's funny, I build my floor systems with a "bond timber" what the old carpenters used to call it, don't need no hangers that way, and strong. Joists and rafters are "toe nailed " in place and sit on top of the "bond timber ". I'll take a picture tomorrow
That barn looks good, how did you get to the numbers while sawing out the boards,,?? that was the OP, question, not to kick a dead horse, just asking,? He just wanted Ideas on working a log up, unless I missed something, from the original posts question,
Unless I missed something the question was answered in the first post.
Well, lets all go have a big helping of grits.
You know, whether you consider that a present or a punishment sort of depends on how you look at it doesn't it.
From response #2 on down was a present to me, just sayin.
If every topic was exact and not allowed to deviate into other related ideas/subjects, then every topic would contain only two replies. :o Pass the Grits. :)
All good info....most interesting to hear about what's done in different parts of the country. In this area I haven't seen anyone build with rough sawed lumber in my lifetime and I'm pushing 60.
The older sheds around the farm were built with what was referred to as "native" lumber....meaning it was locally sawed hardwood rather than store-bought softwoods....hard as concrete and nearly impossible to drive a nail into. My house is also partly built with rough lumber (1948), but that's because they tore down the old house and reused whatever they could.
The support posts in my basement are hand hewn oak timbers from the old house.
There are many topics on different ways to setup/saw different lumber dimensions. Here is one that I found: LINK (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,63328.msg939911.html#msg939911)
You must remember that each of us have different markets so all replies don't necessarily fit all sawing situations. Also, some replies are "opinions" and don't necessarily address real world circumstances. Glean the best and flush the rest.
Pass me some more Grits. food6 thumbs-up
Quote from: Magicman on December 15, 2017, 09:47:50 AM
There are many topics on different ways to setup/saw different lumber dimensions. Here is one that I found: LINK (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,63328.msg939911.html#msg939911)
You must remember that each of us have different markets so all replies don't necessarily fit all sawing situations. Also, some replies are "opinions" and don't necessarily address real world circumstances. Glean the best and flush the rest.
Pass me some more Grits. food6 thumbs-up
Thanks for the link
Go that route if you want and need a lot of crook boards, they make great short boards real fast, if you just saw'm and leave em' you may never ever see it, I reckon I miss understood the first question, (dimensional) lumber, around here this means, full length usable, with the logs that are provided with a cut list, I reckon a good salesman could sell ice cubes to an Eskimo, not in these parts,
David, you have managed to call me out several times concerning sawing framing lumber.
Quoteif you just saw'm and leave em' you may never ever see it
And the above quote is a cheap shot. Yesterday I finished sawing 3857bf of framing lumber for a many times repeat customer, who built a home for his son with framing lumber that I sawed for him. It just so happens that I know what I am doing when I take on sawing a framing lumber job.
Most times it's how you open a log up. If I don't do it right, I can get crooked lumber.
But, If I do open it right the lumber is as straight as an arrow.
Magicman is way past a million BF, I think he has [got it down] :D :D ;)
Exactly right Peter. In Reply #23 in the above linked topic I said:
QuoteYes David. I was geared toward the OP, but the first face that is opened on a SYP log is absolutely the most critical cut that you will make. If you are turning 90° for each face, that opening will determine the orientation of the cant for sawing through. Especially if the log has sweep and you get it wrong, the entire log/cant will be junk.
I open too many logs, saw too much lumber, and have too many repeat customers to be accused of sawing unusable lumber.
Y'all can say what you want but I've learned a lot from Magicman about sawing.
In fact I save a lot of his post just to refer back to and show Kirk on the best way to open a log and produce good lumber.
I can saw until I'm 90 and still will learn something from somebody. :)
MagicMan, have you sawed poplar into framing lumber? I have some projects at my own place and a lot of poplar on the to-saw pile, so any notes or opinions would be welcomed. I'm gonna start sawing next week.
Thanks!
Yes I have but you can expect to see a few "noodles". Be absolutely sure that you are "sawing through" from either the hump or horn side and try your best to center the pith on each end within the center cant.
So far I have not had a call for dimension lumber. We don't have the long straight SYP up here you get just a hundred miles or so south of us. All we get is white pine and sometimes Hemlock.
IMO the greatest vote of confidence and compliment a customer can give us as sawyers is a repeat contract to saw for them again. The next best compliment is a referral to their family and friends.
That is lifeblood of a small mobile sawyer. We can't and should never try to compete with the big box stores on price but we can beat their quality and provide a personal touch they can't provide.
You can not compete with a box store or lumber yard sawing framing lumber. You would be miles ahead to sell your logs and buy your lumber. My niche is that landowners have dead/dying SYP trees that they can not sell. It basically a "salvage" job so rather than take a complete loss it gets sawed.
If it is blue the sawmills will not take it because it will not meet grade. Reason; blue is a sign of decay and there is no way for the grader to know how far along it is, so it's easier to reject it.
Quote from: Magicman on December 16, 2017, 08:04:01 AM
Yes I have but you can expect to see a few "noodles". Be absolutely sure that you are "sawing through" from either the hump or horn side and try your best to center the pith on each end within the center cant.
x2 on this. I saw lots of poplar for framing. Probably more than anything else. I find it hard to get much straight stuff over 12 ft lengths, especially in 2x4 and 2x6 sizes. On my current project I'm using 12 ft 2x4 for interior walls in my new shop and I'm using a lot more blocking to help straighten out some of them. :D
Polar (Tulip Poplar) is also inherently bug proof. My barn siding is poplar, as are most around here, and no termites, ants, or even carpenter bees will touch it. Many of the old homestead log cabins around here were made with poplar logs and are still standing. It's decent framing lumber, but excellent siding.
Thanks for the poplar tips. I got a lot of it in on a timber purchase and quarter the large ones, but the others I may saw into framing/siding for a couple of projects.
I'm working on building a new kiln ASAP (over the holidays), so can perhaps use it for that. The siding idea works good too, as I'm trying to keep my buildings looking nice, maintaining an inviting aesthetic.
I find poplar in NH will move a lot while cutting.
Same here...I have some that is HIGHLY stressed. (boards crack and split the entire length coming off the saw) and others seem to be fine. Can't crack the code as to which I'll get. >:(
Watch diameter range and see if you see any pattern. It can have a lot of growth stress, one reason I tend to saw/dry/rip if possible. On the bug comment, the white sapwood is very high in starch apparently, ppb's love it here, the green heartwood is pretty immune to them. I've seen carpenter bees tunnel in poplar fascias. It is one I try to borate right off the saw which help a great deal. Those little buggers have about eaten up my poplar barn frame. That is why my shop is pine, which the carpenter bees seem to enjoy better :D If there's food here there is somebody to eat it.
Generally Poplar will not behave as well as SYP regarding stress. The framing lumber that I have sawn from Poplar has been from 20"+ logs. Flat sawn behaves better than QS or rift sawn. You can control bow but crook is crooked and twist is worse.
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 16, 2017, 10:57:15 PM
Polar (Tulip Poplar) is also inherently bug proof. My barn siding is poplar, as are most around here, and no termites, ants, or even carpenter bees will touch it. Many of the old homestead log cabins around here were made with poplar logs and are still standing. It's decent framing lumber, but excellent siding.
I wish these WV powder post beetles would read this post and quit eating my hay barn which is almost entirely made from yellow (Tulip) poplar. They are seriously munching away on it. It will rot quickly where it touches the ground but walls 2-3 inches off the ground are 15 y/o and still as solid as the day I put them in.