Lesson on knowing your property lines

[barbender]

The South line of our property was surveyed, paid for by the neighbor. They moved that dang line back and forth so many times, I got bored with it. It didn't matter to us much on the south side, but when it moved it obviously affected our north line as well. The neighbor to our north is encroached on our property from 5' all the way up to 60' on that crooked north boundary (it's just hayfield abutting woods on our side) The original field is probably 100 years old at this point. So when we bought the property, I talked to the owners (who weren't the original owners either) they just asked if they could continue paying it, which we had no problem with. I'm not positive on our legal standing with it, I'm under the impression that if I want to run a fence right down the survey line that's out right. But I'm not 100% on that. I do know that behind our property, State land adjoins their's. The company aims work for logged their property, up to the fence line. A State forester came out and saw the harvest, and assessed a timber trespass against them for cutting over the line. So the State is still treating that as State property, which fact I would quickly bring up if we ever ended up in court😁

[SwampDonkey]

Consentable lines I don't think would stand here. Never hear of it. I own what I own and I don't what I don't. I hope you have good, happy, non confrontational neighbors. I think that is getting rare. All it takes is an outsider to upset the apple cart, and probably burn it to. :D I've seen the mill reestablish line locations all the time on new purchases because woodlot owners rarely survey and mark lines up here until the need to or it's too late. More than one instance where you could tell someone encroached years ago on a neighbor, where the line ends up a few feet into a field. :D I've seen a lot of crooked lines over the years, you'd never follow a compass down them. They go for a ways on one bearing, then might go at 4 degrees another way, then back and forth. :D Lots of land here surveyed off field edges, where a farmer sold off the cleared land and kept the woods and maintained a right of way to it. Or sometimes the woods comes to the road anyway.

[stavebuyer]

Add in some "colorful" metes and bounds "descriptions" recorded by neighbors who agreed to agree and recorded that deed in a courthouse that was purposely burned during the civil war to destroy the records. Then comes the question of who actually owns the place after 3 or 4 generations of absentee ownership with no recorded wills.

Cut-over ground was often abandoned to tax sales 100 years ago.

Ky has a timber trespass law that if you mark the harvest boundary line and notify the adjoining neighbors you are off the hook for the triple damages. 

Always the best plan to get the neighbors involved before you cut even if its surveyed. Almost more important to know where the neighbors think the line is than getting in a legal dispute proving them wrong.

[moodnacreek]

Don't ever build a stone wall along a property line like I did. Build it on the line or not at all.

[dgdrls]

The South line of our property was surveyed, paid for by the neighbor. They moved that dang line back and forth so many times, I got bored with it. It didn't matter to us much on the south side, but when it moved it obviously affected our north line as well. The neighbor to our north is encroached on our property from 5' all the way up to 60' on that crooked north boundary (it's just hayfield abutting woods on our side) The original field is probably 100 years old at this point. So when we bought the property, I talked to the owners (who weren't the original owners either) they just asked if they could continue paying it, which we had no problem with. I'm not positive on our legal standing with it, I'm under the impression that if I want to run a fence right down the survey line that's out right. But I'm not 100% on that. I do know that behind our property, State land adjoins their's. The company aims work for logged their property, up to the fence line. A State forester came out and saw the harvest, and assessed a timber trespass against them for cutting over the line. So the State is still treating that as State property, which fact I would quickly bring up if we ever ended up in court😁

Not necessarily,    original monuments, and often occupation will control over any distance or direction call.
Question is; what prompted the surveyor to move it??

D 

[barbender]

My understanding was that the original markers burned in a forest fire in the early 1900's. That and one corner is under a lake. I never really got a straight answer.

[SwampDonkey]

Don't ever build a stone wall along a property line like I did. Build it on the line or not at all.

excerpts from "Mending Wall" by Robert Frost
 
I let my neighbour know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
There where it is we do not need a wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him,
He only says 'Good fences make good neighbours'.

[mike_belben]

times have changed.  As addictions and economics increase the dispersal of poverty where poverty never was before, and erode morals where morals always were before... Boundary lines are ever more important to protect your liberty before and after something goes down.

A man struggles his whole life to afford an "outback" to park all his junk outta sight of his wife and neighbors view.  Then the low life takes advantage of working in privacy to walk off with your stuff.  Its not the apple or pine who needs to be reminded i will cut him down for being on the wrong side of the fence one night carrying off my property.  

With no fence they all say the same thing. 'I thought it was abandoned.'  My snub nose shows them out. 

[stavebuyer]

times have changed.  As addictions and economics increase the dispersal of poverty where poverty never was before, and erode morals where morals always were before... Boundary lines are ever more important to protect your liberty before and after something goes down.

A man struggles his whole life to afford an "outback" to park all his junk outta sight of his wife and neighbors view.  Then the low life takes advantage of working in privacy to walk off with your stuff.  Its not the apple or pine who needs to be reminded i will cut him down for being on the wrong side of the fence one night carrying off my property.  

With no fence they all say the same thing. 'I thought it was abandoned.'  My snub nose shows them out.

I have read that in Texas its legal to defend one's homestead after dark from trespassers. It should be everywhere.

[mike_belben]

Im willing to get killed or go to prison.  Im not willing to be a victim.  Someone wants my stuff, combat is the cost. Come and take it.

[moodnacreek]

Im willing to get killed or go to prison.  Im not willing to be a victim.  Someone wants my stuff, combat is the cost. Come and take it.

And I thought you where getting into poetry.

[hacknchop]

Just the opposite here I don't own anything worth killing or being killed for.Now I might just pull your arms off and slap you in the head with the wet ends but kill somebody. Life is not cheap,possessions can be replaced lives cannot.

[SwampDonkey]

I don't kill anyone over a stick of firewood. That's all there is up at the woodlot, just trees. ;D I'll sure enough be mad if they helped themselves. But if asked, I would get a neighbor some wood as long as they come pick it up and load their own wagon and I drop the trees. ;D Of all the years I've had words with one individual over taking green brush without asking. Never saw the guy again. Once in a while sapling along the road gets cut for whatever reason, nothing to get worked up over. If you have a presence on your ground on a regular basis it tends to keep the trash out in these parts. ;) These days, if wheels ain't under'm they ain't going off the road. And I don't need no roads. That is invitation to a lot more than missing firewood, they will make your ground their dump.

[wisconsitom]

Thinking l might have a situation that bears watching...field to west of my property has in past been rented to big giant farmer who proceeded to drift glyphosate onto young growing stock of mine two years in a row.  Took agency action to deal with back then.  Fast forward to the present, I see surveyor's flags along there which likely indicate this individual bought the little 30-acre.  Flagging seems both a bit aggressive and a bit crooked!  I don't know if somebody's just out there with their mobile phone app or real survey.  Plus, oddly, whoever it was used 2 t-posts I had eye-balled in years ago and which are by no means necessarily accurate, as part of the line.  Kinda weird and something I am going to need to keep one eye cocked on, possibly two.

[beenthere]

Do you have a certified survey for your property?  If so, then there is likelihood that corners are established with steel stakes and just need to run your own property line to be certain if the flags are correct or not.

[wisconsitom]

Hi been there.  We got survey when we bought in 08.  Yes there are iron pipes at corners.  Yes, I can borrow friend's locator and find those corners sometime.  But not today-snow-covered ground up thataway.

I have grass lane going down that side and could have mowed out into buffer a bit over time, but the apparent lack of straightness of this newly marked line plus apparent laziness in just putting tape on posts of mine from yesteryear seem odd.  I just have to watch this, and I'm there often.  I had already planned on getting my corners all relocated.  Stuff sure gets lost quick!

If it's who I think it is-online app may not be up to date-then it's one of main guys in that area knocking down lots of woods to grow more corn and spread more manure....

[dgdrls]

Hi been there.  We got survey when we bought in 08.  Yes there are iron pipes at corners.  Yes, I can borrow friend's locator and find those corners sometime.  But not today-snow-covered ground up thataway.

I have grass lane going down that side and could have mowed out into buffer a bit over time, but the apparent lack of straightness of this newly marked line plus apparent laziness in just putting tape on posts of mine from yesteryear seem odd.  I just have to watch this, and I'm there often.  I had already planned on getting my corners all relocated.  Stuff sure gets lost quick!

If it's who I think it is-online app may not be up to date-then it's one of main guys in that area knocking down lots of woods to grow more corn and spread more manure....

Good plan to stay with it.  Do you know if your survey was recorded with the County Registrar/Clerk?
FWIW  the field crew may have just flagged the evidence they found while taking measurements along the line.
D

[Dom]

They retired the old survey monuments around here a few years ago (1996). Service NB maintains all the old historical data, but not the old physical monuments. I still know where there is one, it still has it's signage up on an old dirt farm road. They ditched them for GPS system now.

The old monuments are here, click on the triangle to get the coords. No idea why they call the one near here 'Wicklow', when it's in Knoxford (J Clark Road), can't even get that right. Plus 'Beechwood' is actually Upper Wicklow, Beechwood is across the river. :D

SNB - NB Survey Control Network

Centennial Survey Monument

Thanks SD, I had no idea that existed!  

[SwampDonkey]

If you use RINEX data to post process Trimble GPS data, SNB has that online, or you can enter a new site in Trimble's Pathfinder Office for your local station.  I used to use it from the Woodstock station, but I went Garmin. Good enough for silviculture work. I gave up on Trimble when their qualified service centre wanted $500 for $60 battery. :

[HemlockKing]

SD, are you saying NB went away with iron pins and posts? and rely on GPS? I cant say id trust it, especially over time(if the severs dont crash and loose all the info)

[luap]

At first glance of the thumbnail I thought I was looking at Big foot but I have seen him before and have also been known to hallucinate after getting all my cancer drugs. My neighbor was rebuilding the fence line between our properties and was going off the old posts and wire most of which was on the ground same same as your situation.   I called the local surveyor and w hen he finished, the old fence was not anywhere close to being accurate. I told the neighbor to  cut what ever was necessary to keep the line straight. Now We have a very nice looking fence on the boundary and both of us satisfied. He did all the labor and i paid for the survey which was very reasonable because the corner was already established. Our county has a policy that they survey x number of section corners per year for whatever there budget allows.

[SwampDonkey]

SD, are you saying NB went away with iron pins and posts? and rely on GPS? I cant say id trust it, especially over time(if the severs dont crash and loose all the info)

No. These are old monuments as references to tie in surveys. These aren't property corners. But these days, property surveys are all done by GPS, have been for years. Still pins and posts put in. You know the government, they love paperwork, computers mean a lot more of it. :D

[Dangerous_Dan]

 

 
This is part of my western facing property line.
There are bluestone stacks with a rebar pin at these points.
Luckily someone marked it well back in the day.

[B.C.C. Lapp]

In PA if you cut across lines its 3x stumpage value.

That aint quite right. This is the pa timber theft statue.
§ 8311. Damages in actions for conversion of timber.
(a) General rule. -In lieu of all other damages or civil remedies provided by
law, a person who cuts or removes the timber of another person
without the consent of that person shall be liable to that person in a civil
action for an amount of damages equal to:
(1) the usual and customary costs of establishing the value of the
timber
cut or removed and of complying with the erosion and
sedimentation control regulations contained in 25 Pa. Code Ch.
102 (relating to erosion control); and
(2) one of the following:
(i) three times the market value of the timber cut or removed if the
act is determined to have been -deliberate;
(ii) two times the market value of the timber cut or removed if the
act is determined to have been negligent; or
(Hi) the market value of the timber cut or removed if the defendant
is determined to have had a reasonable basis for believing that
the land on which the act was committed was his or that of the
person in whose service or by whose direction the act was
done.
(b) Restitution. - Any damages awarded under this section shall be
reduced by any restitution which is made under 18 Pa. C.S. § 1107
(relating to restitution for theft of timber.)
(c) Definitions. - As used in this section, the following words and phrases
shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:
"Timber." Standing trees, logs, or parts of trees that are commonly
merchandized as wood products.
"Market value." The value of the standing timber at local market prices
for the species and quality of timber cut or re

[B.C.C. Lapp]

I've been a logger, timber land owner and a buyer of timber for over 30 years.
Ive had ONE property line dispute that wasn't easily resolved.  
I bought a small lot of timber, 12 acres, from a nice young couple in their early eighties.  
They had owned the property for 60 years and lived there always.  They had some large trees and wanted them thinned to make for less branches to pick up and less leaves to deal with.
They mowed about 8 acres of this property.     They showed me their lines. And the survey pins that were driven 60 years ago when they first bought this land.  
I cut 4 loads of logs. Did the skidding with horses.  They were very happy.  Not the horses, the people that sold me the timber.
Flash forward 20 months.   I get served a lawsuit by a sheriffs deputy.  Seems a man bought the land next to those folks where I cut the timber.   He had it surveyed by a surveyor that works FULL TIME FOR HIM.  His employee.   And of course his surveyor finds that the line is really 60 ft over yonder.  And he sues me, the landowner and then wants to know where I sold the logs and who trucked them.  He wants to sue them as well.   I call my lawyer. He says no problem who is suing you?  When I tell him he says, "settle" right now.  I ask why. He says that's what this guy does.  He buys land, his surveyor surveys it, finds that the lines are wrong and then he sues the neighbors for whatever. My lawyer tells me its like a hobby with this guy.   Ended up I had no say in it anyway. My insurance company wouldn't fight it and gave this crook 3000 bucks and the landowners insurance gave him 3000 bucks.  
Point to the story is that every case is not that the landowner is right just because he is the land owner.  All situations are just a little different.