Problems with milling oak timbers on a Lucas 6-18 mill

[buckeylee]

I'm about ready to scream. Background first, using a Lucas swing blade mill with 6" cut capacity. Trying to cut dried oak timbers for oilfield mats. These are non treated timbers 8" thick, 8" to 18" wide and 16' long. I have cut them previously on a Wood-Mizer LT35 but was hoping to have more success in cutting 5" planks for some decking. The timbers are sitting on some a-frame type stands shimmed to be level. So we squared up a timber and started cutting by indexing down 1". What we ended up with was a really tough go of it cutting it and the board ended being a weird shape. On the end where we were beginning the cut, nearest the blade, it was too narrow and ended up slightly too thick on the far end, HOWEVER, a closer examination showed that on the beginning end but away from the cut, in other words the part of the horizontal cut the meets the vertical return cut, the thickness was ok. We thought, well, we screwed up the leveling. So we checked everything, the next cut was thicker in the middle than at either end!!! So we decided to try one more cut, we couldn't get even 3' down the timber without binding the the cut riding up. Cutting the saw off, we slid the blade in and it started to bind on the bottom of the cut. WTH? We thought this was a new blade but can't confirm that. I need to cut 2000 bf of planks or go by plywood. Help. See photos below

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

         

[doc henderson]

I am not a swing blade guy, but in general it looks like the blade is cutting on both front and back.  something is out of alignment or moving.  could be the blade itself, or the installation.  does it have a centering bushing that could have slipped out of place.  out of the cut, does the blade run true with no wobble.  it could be the frame, or the wood or its support.  maybe a video would be helpful, if you are able.  for not only us, but for you to watch and see what is going on.  wow that has got to be frustrating.  hope some swing blade guys chime in soon.  good luck.

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum

Blades are getting dull quickly and not cutting well at all. 

Being successful is doubtful, at best.

Don't want to be a wet blanket, and maybe someone can offer hope.

[doc henderson]

what are the timbers from, they may be dry and hard.  any rocks or grit.  yes if it is stalling the blade, must be dull or in a great bind.  what were the problems with the band saw?  you stated was hoping to have better luck with the swing blade.

[Don P]

It looks like you are trying to take the full 6" in one bite? If so that is likely the problem. I can get away with that is something soft and green but not in something like that.

Is the blade running true? Try another. If it just happened, its probably the blade or its mounting, check the collar. To me it looks like its fluttering.

If none of that works break out the video and check the entire setup.

[wkf94025]

I agree depth of cut may be part of the problem.  Are you aware that your horizontal depth of cut is typically much less than your vertical depth of cut?  Vertically the sawdust collects equally on either side of the blade.  Horizontally it all packs below the blade.  Makes a big difference.  I only cut half of full width in first pass, then rest of full width in a second pass.  And sharpen my blade twice daily.  

[chep]

Everything said up above. Def try 2 inch passes. Then 3 inch passes. Dont do it all in 1 shot. Not in that dry material. You have the lucas sharpener? Make sure there no sawdust packed in there and set up correctly.  Then try a new blade .

[beenthere]

From the OP

Trying to cut dried oak timbers for oilfield mats.

I read that quote that these are "from" oilfield mats that have been used (not "for").. and that appears to be confirmed with the pics shown.
But could have misinterpreted what is being sawn into boards.

Hopefully the OP buckeylee will be back to help out what is what here. ;)

[btulloh]

I think beenthere got it right with the mis-read word. I'd wager their FROM oilfield mats based on the pictures and the size of the sawed material. If I HAD to saw them, I'd spend my winnings on a lot of carbide tipped blades, a pressure washer, and a case of single malt malt scotch.  (Better yet - two cases of scotch.)

[longtime lurker]

Here's a checklist.
Mill setup:
1. Spray a bit of black paint down the inside of one of the rails and then stand off to the side and make sure those rails are parallel end to end.  Doesn't matter if one end is higher then the other so long as they are dead set parallel. If they aren't shim a corner up until they are. If you're out of parallel you'll cut a twist into the timber
2. Check your diagonals. The mill needs to be square. (EDIT: you see that shiny streak down the inside of the rails in your pictures - thats the diagonals being out and the carriage dragging on the rail at some point. But it might not be today's problem)
3. Make sure that both ends are on a solid surface. I've seen guys set up and one end was moving up and down as the weight of the saw carriage moved back and forth.
4. Check the carriage rollers are good. They last a long time but eventually they wear out (diagonals being out accelerates carriage roller wear rapidly)

The Log:
1. Make sure the log is secure and can't move about as you're cutting. You'd be surprised how often...
2. Old timbers often have weird moisture gradients. They can spring just as much - if not worse - than any log. Something to keep in mind.
3. Tungsten carbide is hard but brittle and inclined to chip. There's no saw known to man will do well in dirt, or ground in grit. Embeded sand or rock fragments are particularly bad for chipping out the corners of your teeth, and then it forces the saw to cut off line the same as sharpening a lead into them would

Blade:
1. Sharpen it - it's blunt. I can see that from the pictures. So long as the mill is set up correctly 95% of the problems with a Lucas not cutting straight are a saw that's not sharpened and sharpened correctly.
2. If you've bound the saw up or it's cutting poorly you'll get friction, get enough heat and you'll lose saw tension. The saw may need to be hammered. That's the cause of a further 4½% of problems with a Lucas not cutting correctly.
3. Try another saw. I used to keep one fresh from the factory that only ever got used for confirming it wasn't a saw issue, if I put it on and it cut straight then the problem was the saw... then I'd take it off and put it away for next time. It was nearly always a saw issue.

If that doesn't fix it come back and I'll run a list of the other uncommon things it could be. DO NOT play with any of the blade adjustments yet, and if you get the urge to do so make sure you write down exactly what you've done... chances are you'll need to find the factory zero settings again later.
Hope that helps

[buckeylee]

what are the timbers from, they may be dry and hard.  any rocks or grit.  yes if it is stalling the blade, must be dull or in a great bind.  what were the problems with the band saw?  you stated was hoping to have better luck with the swing blade.

The timbers are definitely dry and hard. They are power washed to remove any grit or foreign material.
We seemed to be dulling the blades on the bandsaw and they would start walking and dipping. We may have to go back to that. 

[buckeylee]

I agree depth of cut may be part of the problem.  Are you aware that your horizontal depth of cut is typically much less than your vertical depth of cut?  Vertically the sawdust collects equally on either side of the blade.  Horizontally it all packs below the blade.  Makes a big difference.  I only cut half of full width in first pass, then rest of full width in a second pass.  And sharpen my blade twice daily.  

I was NOT aware of that. We could reverse our process and make the deep cut vertically! Additionally we could do two passes to full depth of cut. Do you advise doing the the horizontal cut first so the board doesn't "fall on the saw when the last cut is made?

[dgdrls]

buckylee,

What @longtime lurker said.
And
When you can, make your deeper cuts vertical and
don't saw more than 1/2 your blade dimension in the horizontal position.

For the horizontal cuts if you need to
and they are deep enough place a couple felling wedges
in the cut as you progress.

A little water/solution may help too

D

[buckeylee]

Here's a checklist.
Mill setup:
1. Spray a bit of black paint down the inside of one of the rails and then stand off to the side and make sure those rails are parallel end to end.  Doesn't matter if one end is higher then the other so long as they are dead set parallel. If they aren't shim a corner up until they are. If you're out of parallel you'll cut a twist into the timber
2. Check your diagonals. The mill needs to be square. (EDIT: you see that shiny streak down the inside of the rails in your pictures - thats the diagonals being out and the carriage dragging on the rail at some point. But it might not be today's problem)
3. Make sure that both ends are on a solid surface. I've seen guys set up and one end was moving up and down as the weight of the saw carriage moved back and forth.
4. Check the carriage rollers are good. They last a long time but eventually they wear out (diagonals being out accelerates carriage roller wear rapidly)

The Log:
1. Make sure the log is secure and can't move about as you're cutting. You'd be surprised how often...
2. Old timbers often have weird moisture gradients. They can spring just as much - if not worse - than any log. Something to keep in mind.
3. Tungsten carbide is hard but brittle and inclined to chip. There's no saw known to man will do well in dirt, or ground in grit. Embeded sand or rock fragments are particularly bad for chipping out the corners of your teeth, and then it forces the saw to cut off line the same as sharpening a lead into them would

Blade:
1. Sharpen it - it's blunt. I can see that from the pictures. So long as the mill is set up correctly 95% of the problems with a Lucas not cutting straight are a saw that's not sharpened and sharpened correctly.
2. If you've bound the saw up or it's cutting poorly you'll get friction, get enough heat and you'll lose saw tension. The saw may need to be hammered. That's the cause of a further 4½% of problems with a Lucas not cutting correctly.
3. Try another saw. I used to keep one fresh from the factory that only ever got used for confirming it wasn't a saw issue, if I put it on and it cut straight then the problem was the saw... then I'd take it off and put it away for next time. It was nearly always a saw issue.

If that doesn't fix it come back and I'll run a list of the other uncommon things it could be. DO NOT play with any of the blade adjustments yet, and if you get the urge to do so make sure you write down exactly what you've done... chances are you'll need to find the factory zero settings again later.
Hope that helps

Great advice..
Mill setup
#1 sorry, I'm having trouble visualizing how to do what you are describing.
#2 I will check the diagonals in the morning 
#3 this I am sure of, we dug down and then set solid cinder blocks shimmed and set.
#4 I will check in the morning
The Log
#1 Log is secure, clamped, BUT, I am not happy with the stability of the base that the stands that the clamps are welded to. We are actually planning on pulling the beams and stands out and pouring 2 concrete pads with anchor bolts to attach the stands to ( these were old 3-d a-frame type stands, very stiff) and bolting them down.
#2 I don't think that is our issue here
The Blade
#1 we will get that done ASAP. Actually I believe we have the setup to sharpen the blade on the saw.
#2 I do not understand the term " the saw may need to be hammered"
Thanks for all the patience!!
Buckey

[Ianab]

#1 sorry, I'm having trouble visualizing how to do what you are describing

It's a basic check that both rails are parallel vertically. What I do is stand a little way off the side of the mill, so you can see both rails, then move around so you can see the top of the near rail lining up with the bottom of the far rail. This gives a sight line if the rails are parallel in height. If you see a fraction of daylight evenly between the rails, they are. If one end has a bigger gap than the other, then you need to adjust and fix that. 

I don't run a Lucas, and my rails sit on the ground, but you still have to get that alignment right, and adjust the end supports to cope with any uneven ground. 

The rails don't have to be exactly the same height, or exactly level. Close is better of course, but the operation can work OK with less than perfect in those areas.  But the rails do need to be as close to parallel as you can get them. You can adjust a Lucas to mill slightly up or downhill to account for taper in a log etc, as long as both rails are aligned. 

The diagonal check is the next one, and that makes sure the horizontal plane is parallel. Less critical with my mill's design, it's hard to get wrong. But a Lucas could be set up a bit askew. 

[longtime lurker]

 

 

Those rails are parallel, so if you stood where that picture was taken you should be able to look across the closest rail and the far rail should be in line with it.  If your were to put a tape on that the height between rail and ground should be the same across the end frames, assuming that floor is dead level. Floors - and particularly dirt floors or the ground outside - are seldom dead level so I used to run a strip of spray paint on the inside of the rail and just standing back there and eyeballing it: paint just makes it stand out a lot more, particularly if set up outside.

If there is any cross in the rails... say one corner was higher (or lower) so you could see less (or more) of the far rail... then as the saw carriage runs down it it's going to drop or lift on one side and it cuts a twist into the lumber. A lot of the time that's barely noticeable but its there, and if its there enough your saw will start binding.

On a side slope you can have one rail higher than the other due to slope (within reason) and it will still cut straight as long as both those rails are parallel.



 

If you look at the corner of the end frame there you'll see a little non factory modification, comprising a coupler nut welded to the crossbar, for a piece of ¾" threaded rod with a plate welded on the bottom. One of those on each corner gives you fine control in terms of getting those rails parallel without having to have the ground level or messing around with shims trying to level the crossbar. (I had a couple holes drilled in the ground plate so I could drive a pin through it and some pre-drilled 10x 2's I carried with me it into the ground... if you can stop it sinking you can saw in sand or mud)


Hammering... the actual sawplate is under tension which makes it slightly dished. If heated to much the dish will distort, or get a little hot spot in it. That doesn't seem like much but at operating speed its a bit like an out of whack bearing and it means the rim of the saw where the teeth are isn't going to track true. If that happens the saw needs to be sent to a saw doctor who will put it on an anvil and hammer the saw back into the correct tension. Sawplates can take a fair bit of abuse but eventually, or if heated too much, the steel wont hold tension anymore and they're only good for wall ornaments.

[Nebraska]

Might try some  4 degree blades on the band mill. Just another thought. Better on dry hard stuff.

[moodnacreek]

If your going to stay in business , get a circle sawmill and at least a mud saw. I think you are trying to do too much wood with not enough iron. Just because it can be done does not mean it is the way to go. Among other problems wood that has shrunk on the outside may be wet inside and pull when being taken apart [sawed]. L.L.  can cut rocks if he has to, with a skill saw, but how much work can you put into this project?

[longtime lurker]

If your going to stay in business , get a circle sawmill and at least a mud saw. I think you are trying to do too much wood with not enough iron. Just because it can be done does not mean it is the way to go. Among other problems wood that has shrunk on the outside may be wet inside and pull when being taken apart [sawed]. L.L.  can cut rocks if he has to, with a skill saw, but how much work can you put into this project?

Gee thanks mate.  Actually rock's not so bad, just got a sharpen a bit more often. The last couple weeks has been more dispersed iron - old utility poles - I've actually finally found an application where insert teeth are da bomb! :D

[buckeylee]

To all of y'all who replied. I haven't been able to reply or try the suggestions yet. Same day I posted, I found out I have some long blood clots in my right leg. Put a crimp in my schedule. 3 months of blood thinners!!! Anyway, thanks to all and I will update y'all on progress with saw

[moodnacreek]

To all of y'all who replied. I haven't been able to reply or try the suggestions yet. Same day I posted, I found out I have some long blood clots in my right leg. Put a crimp in my schedule. 3 months of blood thinners!!! Anyway, thanks to all and I will update y'all on progress with saw

Sorry to have been negative in my post but that is the way I [being me] feel. Really sorry to hear about your problem, hope that works out.

[buckeylee]

To all of y'all who replied. I haven't been able to reply or try the suggestions yet. Same day I posted, I found out I have some long blood clots in my right leg. Put a crimp in my schedule. 3 months of blood thinners!!! Anyway, thanks to all and I will update y'all on progress with saw

Sorry to have been negative in my post but that is the way I [being me] feel. Really sorry to hear about your problem, hope that works out.

Hey, I don't see it as negative. I appreciate the comments. Looks like I am going to have a change of business and scenery. I have had joint bruising since I when on the thinners. I think I will have a LT 35 with blade sharpener and setter and resaw attachments, about 100 blades but they rusty and need cleaning, even the new ones, for sale. It will need new hoses etc. anyway thanks to all of y'all for your help. Buckey

[SawyerTed]

Sorry about the necessity to change plans.  

[maple flats]

Buckeylee, I hope 3 months of blood thinners does the trick, I've been on them for 5 years now, finally 2 months ago, the dosage was reduced, because I had no new clots in the 5+ years.
Back to your sawing issue, while I had a Peterson, not a Lucas, the working should be the same. Parallel track rails is a must. I also found it hard to cut oak that was real dry in one pass of 4" or more. My mill was an 8" cut x 20HP Honda. On dry wood do your cuts in 2 or even 3 passes and be sure to sharpen the blade often enough. Old Oak mats likely do a job on the teeth. How many teeth are you running? On my Peterson I had 6 tooth and 8 tooth blades (8" cut) . If you have a choice of 2 different toothed blades, go with the one with fewer teeth. You may also find it necessary to sharpen much more often than you ever do when sawing clean, fresh cut logs.
I imagine the mill came with a on the mill sharpener. I used to sharpen even 8 teeth in about 6-8 minutes, once the sharpener was set up.
Good luck on your clots and on milling!