Anybody sold Mushroom Logs?

[Old Greenhorn]

I know, this might sound nutso but .... When I took my silviculture class and we did the field work, part of the tour was through a working mushroom growing operation near a stream out in the woods. I will spare you the process, but they work these logs, they call 'bolts' through a rotation of about 4 weeks and every 4 weeks a group of bolts produces a crop of shitake mushrooms, selling at around 7 or more bucks per pound (to the wholesaler). Apparently this is quite the little cottage industry in our area. The gal giving the talk mentioned that getting her bolts was a bit of a hassle because most loggers don't want to be bothered with the little stuff and little bucks. The 'logs' are about 4-6" diameter x 4' long or so and the preferred species for Shitakes is White Oak (not easy to find around here, but there is some). She said she had to use her "sweet talking skills' to get one of her neighbor loggers to learn how to handle the logs and get her what she needed. She also mentioned that it is a nice little side job for anyone who cares to take the time and effort. At the time I filed that information away in the back of my tiny brain. 
 Well a few days ago I got a call from a guy looking for an "Oak Log" after we played 20 questions I learned he was looking for a piece of log to grow with a mushroom growing kit he bought for a child with a great interest in Mushrooms. He (they) is (are) growing shitakes, so I gave him the full breadth of my knowledge on the subject in about 30 seconds. Eventually he came and got a 12" piece of white Oak which I just gave him, it cost me a lot more than it was worth, but he gave me a nice 'thank you' tip anyway. The whole little episode made me re-think back to that class and I realized there might be an opportunity here. I did some research to see if I could find suppliers of such logs for the mushroom folks. I found none locally. The required work is right up my alley, small scale, no heavy equipment, just need to have a source.
 I have since sent out a couple of emails to a local mushroom grower asking for advice or leads, and a forestry consultant I know for the same, but given the holiday it will like be a few days or more before I hear back.
 Now I know these logs have to be 4-6" diameter and either 3 or 4' long depending on the user. They have to be cut and handled by hand because any damage to the bark allows other bacteria to enter the log and reduce growing capacity. One log should last 2 -3 years before it is shot. They should also be cut when the tree is dormant (winter), which is now. SO I am trying to move quickly on this to get it started, assuming there is anything to start. The going price I was given was 3-4 bucks a bolt. I figure I can find (and already have found 1) a few loggers/cutters I know that will let me come in when they get the right species and cut some stuff out of their slash before it gets chipped or stacked or run over as long as I sty out of their way and leave a light footprint. But this is all new to me and you should see the blank stares I get back from cutters when I ask if they know anything about it.
 SO having said all that, my question is, does anybody here have any experience supplying mushroom growers with logs or wood chips, or sawdust? (all these are used in mushrooms for various species and growing methods.)
 Just looking for some input or maybe and interesting conversation. You have to start somewhere, right?

[dchiapin]

Funny you brought this up. I had a guy call me a few weeks ago wanting our oak sawdust for the same reason.
I had some but it was sorta mixed up with pine sawdust and he said no that that won't work.
Sure wish I had kept his phone number because just a week later I sawed a bunch of oak,
He said it did not matter that we only have (mostly) red oak here in this part of north Florida that any oak will work.
Maybe some one from the Institute of Shitake Mushrooms and Research will chime in

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, I don't have the link right now, but if you do a little searching you can find a listing of which woods are best for growing each species of mushrooms. Yes, any oak will work for shitakes, but white oak is preferred by most. I don't know anybody around here that grows in sawdust (yet), but wow, what a great way to get rid of it!

[ehp]

yes I have, mainly out of the tops here cause we cannot cut small trees to make them, I sold a bunch in the spring again this year . Mainly here its black or red oak 

[Old Greenhorn]

yes I have, mainly out of the tops here cause we cannot cut small trees to make them, I sold a bunch in the spring again this year . Mainly here its black or red oak

@ehp if you don't mind me asking, what sizes and species do you cut and what can you get for them? Do you do large quantities, or just a few?

[Haleiwa]

Here is a link to some fact sheets from Cornell.  The one on pricing bolts ranges from .50 per bolt if you do all the work cutting out of tops to $3.00 for bolts cut and delivered to the customer.  Note that oak, maple, beech, and birch will all work.  Supposedly an expert can pick out differences in flavor depending on the log species used.

[ehp]

here they only want oak period , I get $3 average sitting on landing , No I do not do alot of them but if one of the guys that grows mushrooms needs some I will cut a bunch to keep him going , 48 inches long and over 3 inch but under 8 inch diameter , most times 6 inch or less. they get heavy fast . If I get a clear cut job that has oak in it thats small I cut stuff for them to 

[ehp]

firewood pays as much and easier to lift 

[Old Greenhorn]

Here is a link to some fact sheets from Cornell.  The one on pricing bolts ranges from .50 per bolt if you do all the work cutting out of tops to $3.00 for bolts cut and delivered to the customer.  Note that oak, maple, beech, and birch will all work.  Supposedly an expert can pick out differences in flavor depending on the log species used.

Yes, for shitakes. But there are a lot of different mushrooms I am told. :D This is the best list I have found for my purposes.

[Old Greenhorn]

firewood pays as much and easier to lift

You know at 3 bucks a bolt, I am not so sure.  :D  Firewood is all about quantities and volume. I can't do that (in case you missed the memo, I am old and equipment poor ;D). I just see this as a nice way to generate some cash while getting some time in the woods. Delivering these bolts out of a pickup for cash seems to be a workable thing for me as long as the quantities are reasonable. Yeah, $.50 on the landing really isn't worth it, but $150 to $250 for a delivered load in the area does appeal to me. My needs aren't great, not trying to get rich, just buy food and beer and help somebody with what they need.

[Otis1]

North Spore out of Maine has a good website with lots of different products and some tutorial videos. I did a couple of their box kits this fall, oyster mushrooms and lion's mane; very easy and grew well. They also sell all of the stuff to innoculate logs (really pulp sticks). They have a bunch of info on what species of tree works best/ only for a variety of mushrooms. There is also better times of year to cut the tree down and it should be hand cut, not harvester because you want the bark to stay on and not be damaged. I just cut an 8" sugar maple to try and grow some lion's mane this spring.

I think this time of year until just before leaf out is the best time to cut because of all the stored nutrients. It seems like to make sense selling mushroom logs at scale, you would want to take orders ahead of time and then fulfill in winter/ spring. Also, there's some extra handling and what not because they want them 4' long. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Yes, north spore is the one I had the link to in the post above. I am aware of the cutting and handling requirements, I think I mentioned those above also. I am not looking to grow mushrooms, I am looking to see if there is a niche market I can help fill for these logs and looking to see what the experience of other folks on the forum is with this market. There is a vast amount of knowledge out there if you ask the right question and these folks are always generous in sharing it with others who are working toward a goal. I am glad to see there is a growing interest in home grown mushrooms, now I have to figure out how to help with that need.

[Corley5]

No mushroom logs but I've sold logs for hugel mound construction 🙂

[WDH]

I did the red oak sawdust for mushrooms thing once.  Collected the red oak sawdust and kept it pure.  In the end, the effort on my part was not commiserate with the return and I chose to forgo future opportunity. 

[dustintheblood]

I drilled 15,000 holes last summer in ironwood and oak logs.  Spores were plugs, and capped with wax.

Will let you know how I make out this summer with the first crop.

[mudfarmer]

Talked to a commercial grower last year, he gets his bolts from the same guy he gets his firewood from. Keeps him a good relationship with single provider and the lucky firewood guy gets to make three less cuts per stick  ;D

[leeroyjd]

@Old Greenhorn 
You should grow your own so you can tell the growers first hand that Shitakes grow equally well in Red, Black, or White Oak.
We don't have much White Oak here so used mostly Black Oak.
I had someone email our website last year looking for some.
I'll try to find it to see what we discussed for pricing.
Never did materialize, due to distance if memory serves.
He may have even been in New York. I do remember asking why he could not source them closer.

[doc henderson]

I have grown some mushroom's on oak logs, but they were not cultivated, and I would not eat them.

[aigheadish]

I'm not useful for the topic of selling these kinds of logs but I did do a little research into the grower side of things. If you can work out the operation I think there is a ton of money to be made from it. I would imagine lockdowns are hurting the business if you can't sell your mushrooms to restaurants as much as you could but from the stuff I was looking at you could do pretty well. I think I determined that I'm not clean or organized enough to work it out for myself.

[Old Greenhorn]

Actually you can do well with these if you have a market and there are a lot of health food and organic shops around here that will buy direct from growers even when the restaurants aren't doing much. I had gotten enough from a class to understand the process and saw it in operation. What I lack is a water source and a way to soak the logs for an easy operation. Once you spend a day or two inoculating the logs it only takes a couple of hours a week to do the running work. With 4 sets of logs in rotation you will get one crop every week. It's just a question of how many logs you can handle in each set. You do need a little space, preferably cool and shady and near that water source. 
 I don't really have the space or the water source and right now I have too many other things to do. Supplying the logs is just something I am looking into as another niche I could fill, pick up some cash, and make some more contacts. There are a bunch of growers around here, I just have to hook up.
 Anybody can do anything if they have a plan and have good resources to fill in the questions that come up along the way. Persistence pays, I am sure you could make it work. Start with one log and supply your own kitchen needs. They sell kits with everything you need to get started, and it is not rocket science. :D

[chep]

My partner has a small operation.  Growing shitake on maple logs. 

My take aways. 
1. Its not easy. Slugs love mushrooms!
2. You have to be around and monitor constantly.  Moisture requirements,  harvest requirements are key. 
3. Its not easy money 

I have also sold logs to people. Reminds me of old timers telling me about logging 4 ft pulp all day. They used pull hooks and threw the pieces of 4dt around willy Billy.  The thing about mushroom logs is just cant throw them around. They need to be treated DELICATELY.  that's where most of us fail. Hahah.  Try moving 100 pieces of of 4 ft 4-8 inch sugar maple around delicate like and your back will tell you that it's for the birds. 
Cant skid them. Cant drop them, cant bust them with the grapple. 

Fun hobby. Delicious dinners. But a Tough business to succeed in. 

[doc henderson]

happy birthday Danny!  @WDH 

[Old Greenhorn]

Fun hobby. Delicious dinners. But a Tough business to succeed in.

No doubt. It's farming plain and simple, and I don't know any farming that is easy. WHen I implied it was easy, I was thinking about as a side job with only 40-100 logs working at any one time. Making a living is another story, there are a few around here that do that and make out well, but they work long hours and supplement with teaching classes, doing mushroom walks, making mushroom extracts, and all the other side ventures. THAT is not easy by any means and take years to develop, but for household or small local sales, not a bad way to pick up some extra busks if you have the space and the logs and some time.
 And Yes, Happy Birthday Danny!

[mike_belben]

My partner has a small operation.  Growing shitake on maple logs.

My take aways.
1. Its not easy. Slugs love mushrooms!
2. You have to be around and monitor constantly.  Moisture requirements,  harvest requirements are key.
3. Its not easy money

I have also sold logs to people. Reminds me of old timers telling me about logging 4 ft pulp all day. They used pull hooks and threw the pieces of 4dt around willy Billy.  The thing about mushroom logs is just cant throw them around. They need to be treated DELICATELY.  that's where most of us fail. Hahah.  Try moving 100 pieces of of 4 ft 4-8 inch sugar maple around delicate like and your back will tell you that it's for the birds.
Cant skid them. Cant drop them, cant bust them with the grapple.

Fun hobby. Delicious dinners. But a Tough business to succeed in.

This is probably why sawdust in bags with slits indoors on warehouse shelving is the norm. 

[Old Greenhorn]

The sawdust beds require constant tending, the logs require very little, so it depends on the growers goal. Some species will not grow in logs at all and require wood chips. Different log species for different mushroom species. It's all very scientific. ;D
 One of the ways I have heard to handle these is to hand cut the tops in the woods and stack them cord like on a skip, then strap the load on when it is full and move with forks on a tractor. They can go right in a truck bed for delivery. Makes sense to me. But yeah, it is a lot of hand work, which would suit me fine for a seasonal sideline, not a full time gig. I am just exploring the possibilities. BTW, it's funny, but I hate mushrooms, never eat 'em. ;D :D

[Nebraska]

I just imagined a picture of your mule pulling a little logging trailer with a padded grapple on a light knuckle boom, the  manual handling would wear on a fellow, but life wears on us too. Sounds like you might be able to make some beer and tool money at this. 

[Old Greenhorn]

I just imagined a picture of your mule pulling a little logging trailer with a padded grapple on a light knuckle boom, the  manual handling would wear on a fellow, but life wears on us too. Sounds like you might be able to make some beer and tool money at this.

Actually, that's not a bad idea. The forwarder trailer would cost a bunch, but if the money is there, it is something to shoot for. I would need a pretty good relationship with whoever's woodlot I was working on, but it could be done. Right now I am hoping to get a trailer close, then use the pickup to shuttle to the trailer. I gotta start somewhere and establish the market first before I look at buying any gear, and for a seasonal thing, one has to watch the costs pretty closely. I have made contact with some folks in the loop and gotten good references for connections. Tomorrow I make more calls.

[thecfarm]

I sold some logs for mushrooms. They wanted oak, but those are my money trees. Don't want to cut one down for $50. But I cut down a white maple for that.  ;) I only cut one tree. They came with a pick up, I had the tree down and they told me what they wanted.

[Old Greenhorn]

I just imagined a picture of your mule pulling a little logging trailer with a padded grapple on a light knuckle boom, the  manual handling would wear on a fellow, but life wears on us too. Sounds like you might be able to make some beer and tool money at this.

Yeah so after I posted my last reply to this I started thinking about exactly how I am going to get this stuff out of the woods. Regular logging sites around here can be in pretty rough country and getting a pickup in is a long shot. Heck some is a challenge for a skidder. SO I spent last evening looking at ATV forwarding trailers, but a decent one runs about 8 grand or more. I can find none that are used for sale. There is no way I would use the lighter duty ones. I watch the videos and hear the engine nearly hit stall speed when the operator opens an empty grapple. That ain't gonna fly.
 I just have to focus on the supply stream. I did get one response with good references and I have called or followed up on all of them, but being the holiday week, it seems nobody is doing much.
 I just got a call form another logger friend who will stop by in a few minutes and maybe drop me off some wood. I am going to hit him up about poaching off a few of his jobs.  ;D

[WDH]

I just cut down 24 white oak trees.  Did some google searches but could find no local demand for mushroom bolts.

[mike_belben]

You dont need a grapple for little bolts.  My lawnmower has pulled out plenty of them on a homemade baby bunk trailer i built for free. 

[Ed_K]

 Don't spend 8k on a grapple & trailer only to find out that in a yr the bolt buyers are are all loaded up and don't call anymore. BTDT.

[stavebuyer]

I used to log a lot of cedar. Cedar in KY often grew in pure stands or "thickets" as it reclaimed the old hill farms that were abandoned in the 30's and 40s. Our winters here often have rainy spells for a weeks at time where the temps hang around freezing but never freezes all that hard making it difficult to skid and almost impossible to haul logs. Rather than sit around the store and whine about how the weather wouldn't let me work I would grab a small saw and cut cedar fence posts (4"-5" diameter 7'long ) and stack them in piles where I could slip the forks of my tractor under the pile when the weather improved. The posts would bring $3-$4 each and I had no trouble putting a hundred or more a day in banded piles. 

It was a lot like work but I would venture after all the long term equipment costs were figured in I probably made more clear money on the days "it was too wet to work" than when I was running wide open. Seems like every time you had a string of $1000 days $5k in parts and week or more of downtime was always right around the corner.

What does any of this have to do with mushroom bolts? Forget buying equipment. Use your firewood saw and keep them small enough to handle by hand. I haven't sold any but I cut and plugged several for myself last spring. I have a 4wd tractor and winch but you could do 3 times as many by hand. I needed the exercise anyway ;}

[Old Greenhorn]

I think you are on the right track there @stavebuyer , It was the picture I had in my mind when I started looking into it. But if it takes off down the road (accidents happen), then maybe. My only issue is working on somebody else's cut to remove the slash could mean a very long and steep walk in...and out. I will have to figure that out site by site I guess.
 The little forwarder trailer appeals to me for other uses though. I have NOTHING to lift logs with now and I make my stacks by parbuckling each log up, which is laborious and time consuming. a small forwarder would allow me to make those stacks and grab logs and put them on the mill bed. Considering the added benefits I keep my eyes open in case a used one pops up somewhere that I can re-furb.
 I have always preferred to make the money first, the hard way, put it away, and when the work justifies the equipment, make the purchase 'with a brown bag of cash' as Barge like to say. Developing the product stream will be the challenge here and I am trying to take a good business approach to it, spending little money, just sweat until more is justified. the actual work is secondary. I have to create my own market.
 I am finding, just as WDH did, in his above post that there is not much information on either buyers or sellers for this material out there. But I changed my search pattern and looked for mycology clubs and growers and began to find some contacts. I also reached out the some folks I know in the local and regional forestry circles and one gal passed along a little treasure trove of contacts. She even gave me a link to a locater map of people who can supply these logs in our state. Turns out there are NO suppliers near me, the closest being 30 or more miles away.
 So you have to dig a bit and think around the box. I made another contact for sourcing last night and he even dropped me off some stuff in Maple I could process right now.
 I will have to wait until the holiday is over to really hit the phones and see what I can shake out of this. In the meantime, I will work something up for my webpage to test the waters.
 Thanks for all the thoughts and advice so far. I will keep y'all informed as things progress, or not.

[stavebuyer]

I also would forget wading through tops. You need to cut your bolts out of pre-merchantable stems ahead of a clear-cut or land clearing operation.

[brianJ]

I think it would be easy to oversupply the local market.   Then what does that do to your sale price and the impact on machinery investment?   

In my case I will take a tractor with a loader to clear up tops or blowdowns.   What makes a mushroom log I cut and throw in the bucket.   Depending on the situation I throw some firewood in as well and often still have a log or major limb to drag along on my out.  

Works well for me as I only cut for orders I have in hand and it pays better than firewood.      

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, that isn't too likely to be workable (taking the small trees ahead of the cutters). These logs are best when they have as much sapwood as possible. SO straight'ish stems are OK IF they are growing around edges where they grow fast in unencumbered. Small trees inside an active woodlot tend to grow slower. Also working ahead of the crew is problematic for me. Most of the work is TSI and foresters tend to leave straight healthy trees to grow and thin the sick, weak, and old. Certainly, if I wound up connected to a cut like that, it would be my preference, but it is not likely. My business is based largely on salvaging things that would go to waste otherwise. Trees that are cut for safety or health of a wood lot, or to save a structure or whatever. I have to be satisficed with what comes my way and make the best of that. For now anyway.

[doc henderson]

put it on your web page, and you may be shipping all over.  who knows.  
I also agree that you watch for deals on equipment that will augment your entire operation, not just the niche market.

[Old Greenhorn]

I think it would be easy to oversupply the local market.   Then what does that do to your sale price and the impact on machinery investment?  
  

Certainly this has yet to be learned. I am not sure the commercial growers around here use logs. Many have large indoor bed cultivation. Each will have to be explored separately. Likely they already have established good suppliers, but I won't know until I ask. Start slow and manageable and learn as I go, that's the plan.

[mike_belben]

I think younshould be connecting with forestors and land managers to do PCT/TSI work by the hour and from that paid labor, round up what you want for mushroom bolts.  In the 3rd world theyd do it on rickshaws, old motorcycles, mopeds etc.  Look up moped logging if you want to see what an asian skidder looks like.  LoL




I know one thing for sure..  Buying equipment before you got the customer is like jumping out a plane before you check your parachute. 

[mudfarmer]

For the far back and the steep, do you have a snowmobile? Can you find one cheap? We have pulled out more wood than we should have with a 78 arctic cat and a home made sled on XC ski runners. Perfect for bolt sized wood but that poor thing pulled 10-18" 8 and 10ft cherry logs down out of the ridges to salvage some blow down for a whole hard winter. It was not that easy and often completely unsafe. A modern sled would make it a walk in the park. Then you get to ride it for fun if you aren't too tired.

[Jdock]

I still have the remains of some mushroom logs I made close to 10 years ago. Still getting mushrooms twice a year, one flush in the spring and another in the fall. Used to get a steady trickle year round but the logs are mostly gone now. I used red oaks, maybe 10 6" trees made about 40 3' ish sticks. One or 2 good soakings after inoculation, set up in a shady, preferably damp area and ignore until mushrooms appear. After the first year they all flush at the same time, so you have to keep making more every year to have a rotation. Good eating and decent side money a couple times a year but a lot of work to make a business venture.

[Nebraska]

I wasn't thinking one of those 8000.00 fancy small tractor atv trailers, I envisioned you Belbening up a project with and old boom off of an engine hoist, hydraulic parts from an old log splitter, a small cut down running gear, more like an $800.00 project you could move a couple 16" saw logs at a time or a load of Mushroom bolts/firewood. Just what I saw in my head.

[mike_belben]

A junkyard spindle and hub torched off a big truck makes a fine 360 slew bearing if you are doing just a winch boom.  Bolt on a rim and weld the boom tabs to that.

[WDH]

Belbening :D :D. 

[mike_belben]

Im some circles that means to bash yourself in the face/head with a tire iron or jack handle but you guys dont know me that well. 

:D

[Rhodemont]

I use "Fungi Perfecti" from Oregon for information and supplies.  Each year I cut a couple real nice 6 inch x 4 foot oak logs in late winter, seal the ends with anchor seal and let them set. I purchase plug spawn to arrive early spring then drill and set the plugs.  Stack the plugged logs criss cross in a shaded damp area in the woods.  If it gets dry during the summer , like this past, I fill the bucket on the FEL with water and take it down to soak the logs over night to keep them from drying out.  When temps are around 50 deg in spring and fall I soak them and stand on end to produce.  

Last couple years I have also left a couple good size oak stumps that will stay shaded about belt high and plugged the cambium.  Never have to soak as they
continue to draw up moisture. Had first crop from those last year.

[Old Greenhorn]

I don't know which is worse (or better?), the propensity for the members here to help others spend their money, OR the propensity of members here to talk others into projects above their heads or beyond their design range? ;D :D :D  ;D ;D
 Although I have to admit doing a build myself is probably the best approach, I lack the junk pile I would need to pull resources from. I also need to get the lathe and Bridgeport up and operational again before I could even start. The first thing on my build list is a track section on my mill built just for edging, to hold the wood square. Building a proper trailer isn't a bad idea and I already have 4 brand new hub/earing sets that I could make a walking beam suspension out of, but that will have to sit on the longer term list.
 Thanks for all the concept ideas, now lets just see if I can 'shake the trees' and get some orders.
 @Rhodemont , nice 'shrooms! Any reason you only use your logs for one season? From what I read, you should get up to 3 years out of a log.

[WDH]

I might be better off just using some of my white oak logs to grow mushrooms on for family consumption and forget about make a killing selling bolts . 

[mike_belben]

Thats my thoughts on it.  Youll make more selling mushrooms than logs. 

[WDH]

Well, the mushrooms are tasty. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Geez, youse guyz are all over the map! Did you get into some bad hooch last night or something?! :D ;D

[mike_belben]

No such thing

[mike_belben]

Belbening :D :D.

I found an example.  In this case 'belben' is a verb loosely translating to 'a proclivity for industrial accidents.'

Wait for it. No i did not hurt the neighbors 2 day old siding.
home made pressbrake - YouTube

[Old Greenhorn]

A picture is worth a thousand words, a video is even more. Now I get it. ;D I was beginning to get seasick swinging back and forth, but the crash snapped me right out of it.  :D
 Hard to tell in that video, but what part(s) failed? I would call that a success anyway, you did 'press' and it did 'break' and wasn't that the goal? ;D

[mike_belben]

Oh it works excellent but that was a big piece of 1/4 inch plate.  The threaded guide rod bent and i didnt notice it was tipping. 

[Rhodemont]

Old G,  I cut a few each year to replace those that are spent.  Most produce 3 or 4 years but I have a couple going back 6.

[Rhodemont]

This thread made me think about my plugged stumps so I took and walk to look them over this past weekend.  Rats, the two year old have been infected with local fungi, I will not get a second crop.  The first years should produce this coming spring but will be the last.  I knew this was a potential problem but sometimes you just gotta find out for yourself.

[Old Greenhorn]

I just read this whole thread again and it is amazing how spot on so many of the comments were. When I started the thread I was just thinking about it, now 7 months later I am nearly through with two cutting series, one in winter, and one in summer. The data on my winter cutting is only anecdotal, I did not keep good notes, but that showed me that there is a lot involved in making some money on this and when I started the summer cutting I kept lots of notes and a log of time, expenses, mileage, income and more. Yesterday I spent the afternoon compiling the data into a spreadsheet and although I have another week or so to go before I complete the current orders and can close it out for a summary, I can say that the numbers are 'interesting'. To say I learned a lot is an understatement. I took a strict business approach on this, no shortcuts, and documented everything. The actual billable income was small but I think all the numbers taken together at least present a somewhat comprehensive picture of what is involved and what can be expected.
 In the spirit of the knowledge sharing that this forum is known for I plan a full review when I complete this session, hours, expenses, miles, and income so that somebody else might be able to leverage what I have learned and tweak it to work better for them if they so desire. I do not know if I will continue to do this work going forward but I will share all those reasons too, as well as some tweaks I might try next time if I go that way.
 Stay tuned, I should have the report out done in about a week or two. Also, thank you to all the contributors above. Many of those commenters made me think and develop a better plan and/or methods early on in the game. Some of those comments were exactly spot on and I wish I had paid them more heed when they were written, not that I ignored them at all, I just didn't realize how accurate they were until I learned 'the hard way' on my own.
 More later....

[Old Greenhorn]

OK, I am ready to take a shot at sharing the lessons learned and financials as well as how the work was done and changes I made as I learned (the hard way mostly) better ways. I am going to do this in two, or possibly 3 posts. This one will cover the plan going in, how I got the work done and managed my time and how I wound up doing things at the end. The next one will give all the financials and how it all worked out, and then if there is a 3rd, it will be a discussion of what I would do to improve things going forward, assuming I do that. I will give a tease here and say, as you read this, it turned out to not be as big a loser as I expected. Actually it wasn't a loser at all, what I mean is the that the money I made was a little better than I felt I was earning as I went along. If I had not keep good books, I would have just said 'never again' and moved on. But keeping good records tells me a different story. So lets start at the beginning....with the process.....
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Once I developed the right contacts, got listed on a regional map as a mushroom log supplier and then mentioned in a longstanding mailing list to Mushroom growers, I got lots of inquiries. Many sent an email asking for logs, then never responded to follow up emails with the details, I want to say about 20%. Many inquiries were for between 4 and 20 logs with some for 100, 50 or somewhere in between. I had one serious inquiry for between 1,000 and 4,000 logs IF they were all white oak of very specific dimensions. I kept honest expectations with all inquiries and was clear on what I could and could not do, but also kept good notes on those requests so I could keep my eyes open to future opportunities. So I had orders, I took no money in advance and held everyone to their word, I was clear about that. I had to wait until the trees had fully leafed out before I could harvest and I kept my clients in the loop as time went on with updates when I began harvesting so they knew it was on the way.
 Sourcing logs is the hardest part I think. I got lucky. Bargemonkey had a place with a willing landowner who would allow me to take tops, we toured the property before the cut. But as luck had it, another job popped in and he needed to do that first, so he invited me to take logs there. It turned out to be the most perfect setup I could ask for. It had trails looping through it that my Mule would just fit through and I could get pretty close to the trees which is critical. Barge got the ball rolling by dropping a few BIG red oaks and leaving them until I took out the top wood. This is where the learning began. I thought I had it made. 
 As it turned out, those branches take a beating as they come down and working in tops is tough. I cleaned out 4 or 5 trees that were on the ground, but when you consider that Mushroom logs have to be between 4 and 6" diameter and you look at the branch wood that is in the range, the amount you can take gets smaller than you might think. Then take out the pieces that got scarred on the way down and you have even less. On big trees it is very dangerous to try to climb into the top and just cut out what you want, safer is to cut the whole branch, drag it off, then cut your lengths. This also allows you to get the branch closer to the Mule for loading but you risk chafing more bark off. The first day I got 47 logs. It was good, but not really sustainable. I had cleaned off what I could from all the trees on the ground. I knew this would require too many big trees, so I started looking at options. 
 This ground is overgrown, so there are a lot of trees fighting it out for sunlight that had to be thinned even if not clear cut. Many were the red oaks I needed. So after talking with Barge about the property plans, on my next trip I switched gears. I started cutting trees that were about 7" on the stump and I could get 4-6 logs out of those. Some I cut were bigger and I would leave a short firewood log for Barge and those produced sometimes up to 8 logs or more. Finding trees was also time consuming so I would walk in the mornings with flagging tape and mark trees so I could find them easily later, then start cutting and shuttling logs. I pretty much stuck with this process for the rest of the harvest.
 Log handling was something I put a lot of prior thought into. These logs cannot be picked with mechanical means. Any bark scratches allow entry points for bacteria that will compete with the mushroom spores. So every log has to be picked up off the ground and hand loaded in the Mule (not thrown), then they get lifted from the Mule to my trailer for the ride home, then from the trailer to the pile in my yard, then at some point reloaded for delivery if not picked up by the buyer. Get the picture? Lots of handling, by hand and these logs weigh up to 60# or more. I knew up front that would wear me out. So I came up with this 'great idea': I would lay two 1" straps across the Mule bed, then lay my logs in. When it was full (15-20 logs depending on size) I would tie up the bundle with those straps and maybe add another few loose logs on top. When I backed the Mule up to the trailer I had installed a truck crane on the trailer and could pick the bundle out of the Mule and swing it into the trailer bed. This actually worked pretty well. The issues were adjusting the positioning the 4-500# load in the trailer to fit things properly. Usually one or two loads a day would fall apart as I lowered them in the trailer or tried to maneuver them, so I would pull the straps off and easily re-position them as individuals to fill in holes between the other bundles. The system worked 'OK' but I wondered just how much effort or time this was saving me. About halfway through the season I just started handloading and foregoing the straps. I didn't seem to suffer for it at all except for a lot more pinched fingers and small cuts. Also, by that time I had delivered the orders I was stocking for separate delivery runs out of the area. Now I was cutting as much as I could one day, leaving them on the trailer, and delivering them the next morning directly to the client's drop off point. Which brings me to the next consideration of how much heavy physical work I could handle.
 It was clear very early on that I was exhausted every night I got home after collecting logs. My daily routine was to get up early, leave the house before 6am dive a little over and hour to the Country Store, have a good solid sit down breakfast, drive another 12 minutes to the property, pull the Mule out of the weeds, load my tools on, fill the water jug and get to work by about 8am or so. I would work until 2 or 3pm, empty the Mule of tools and stow it in the weeds, bind down the load, head to the store, get a milk shake (they make the best!) for the drive home, and get home by 5pm. I was shot. But I still unloaded the trailer each night (when I was stocking logs). The heat would suck the life out of me. I took breaks when I needed them, but maybe not as much as I could have used, drank a lot of water and some gatoraide, but those first few days my legs were shot, which did improve over the course of the job, but not that much. The point is, there was no way I could do the run up to harvest day after day. I needed a day in between, so I sharpened my saws, picked up any supplies I needed, mowed the lawn, sent and answered emails, and did other stuff on the 'off day' that was 'light duty', and as I mentioned above, I did deliveries on that off day also. There was also the weather to work around. I don't think I avoided any hot days, but steady rain was not worth the trip. Mud was an issue at some points, but I found other paths and could work around that.
 One other consideration was 'hired help' which we all know is not really available, but I was curious how this would effect productivity. Assuming any helper would not be marking and cutting his own trees, that would mean a laborer only to be doing log loading and helping move brush (I had to be at least a little neat and keep all trails clear). So I was lucky enough to get a friend help me one day so I could test the theory. It turned out to be the best log count day (72) but not double the average day. He also turned out to be pretty good at finding 'right sized trees' of the right species, another plus. He turned down the payment I offered him that I thought I could afford (a little over $15.00/hr), but after I pushed him a little he took half to take his wife out to dinner. He enjoyed the day and tried to get another day off to work with me, but it didn't come together. Another side benefit was having a second person with another set of eyes. This is really not a small thing. If I got hurt, he could help. Also I confess that there was a little stress working alone and having my head on a swivel for bears. These woods were so dense that one could be on you within 20 or 30 feet before he broke through the brush. I saw fresh sign on most days, which was more than enough to keep me 'alert'. I don't like carrying a sidearm when I am working, but I kept a little something in the Mule glovebox. At times it felt very far away. Having another set of eyes and ears took a load off.
 So those are the most of the operational considerations I can think of. Of significance is that I did try to research anyone who had done this sort of thing and found nothing. All the people I talked to were selling logs off their own property as part of their normal thinning operations, or folks who got logs from a 'one off' opportunity. It seems nobody does this as an ongoing routine and thus, I had to come up with my own plan. There are no tools or machines designed for these purposes, and looking at the money I can see why. I also noted that the information available on the internet is really not accurate at all when it advises people on getting started in growing mushrooms. They say you should be able to buy bolts for $1.50 to $3.00 each. I can tell you nobody sells logs that cheap. Some of those documents have been updated since I called out the authors on it. That information got me off to a bad start, but once I figured it out and corrected, it got a little better. All my logs sold for $4.00 each this year, but that will likely change if I go forward. 

 In the next post I will lay out the numbers and results of my little experiment. Let me know if you have any questions as we go along here. Sorry this was so long, but I am writing this for folks who come along later and might be interested. Might as well share the knowledge I worked so hard to gain for good or bad.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   Excellent write up and I look forward to reading the next chapter even though I doubt I will ever be a mushroom logger. It does make me remember the old statement when working for big companies about being treated like a mushroom - kept in the dark and fed BS.

    As to the help situation are there any colleges nearby offering forestry related degrees? If so have you contacted them about possibly getting interns or such from them. My son studied forestry and he had to complete a related internship for credit before he could graduate. Many of his counterparts did such internships for free but he was lucky enough to get on with the state putting out gypsy moth traps and got paid for his work and got intern credit at the same time. It looks to me like the work you are doing would easily qualify for such an internship and might be a source for labor for you. I'd check it out if you have not done so. Good luck.

[cutterboy]

Tom, this is valuable and practical information. You approached this like a scientist doing a research project. Thanks for sharing this information.

Looking forward to part two.

[Old Greenhorn]

Howard, when I was contacted by Cornell, which started out as a 1,000 log order and wound up at 300 logs, I asked them this very question and was immediately met with all the reasons of 'why not', "paperwork, steady employment for a period, my certifications, and most of all liability and insurance", not to mention how slow academic institutions work to sanction a new, if temporary, position. There was also a researcher with the cooperative extension who wanted to document the actual work, time, and costs associated with harvesting logs for resale. She was (is?) trying to get a grant to do the study. She went dark when I sent her an email to come on out and that I was actively cutting and hauling. Funny thing is, she lives only about 20 minutes away from where I was working, so it couldn't have been better or easier for her. I put out the word and found a gal who was a certified arborist with considerable forestry experience, no longer doing that work, but was interested in finding an excuse to work in the woods again. The problem there was her schedule and I would have to find her a place to stay or camp for cheap (free). Given that my work schedule was every other day, that couldn't work out. But the search continues for some young person just looking for extra cash on a day basis. I figure a 14-16 year old person would be just fine and it would be a fair learning experience. My grandsons aren't growing fast enough. But, as I said, the search continues because finding such a person could be a game changer for me. These things take time and a little luck.
Cutter, I figure the only way to really know how you are doing is to keep an accurate accounting and in this case the numbers revealed a different story than I would have thought if I hadn't kept them. I don't like 'unknowns' especially when they can easily be 'knowns'. Hence this exercise. Collecting the data meant a little extra work at the end of each day and trip but it was very much worth it and I realized that although we have here on the Forum a fair amount of growers and folks who have at one time or other harvested mushroom logs, none stuck with the log harvest portion for a period of time. This is much like what I found as I made calls and talked to a lot of folks who also tried it. I wanted to know why they all tried different approaches but all came to the same conclusion: "It's just not worth the time". I wanted (and still do) to put a fine point on that 'why' question and find a solution if I could. Remember, I am retired and don't need to bring in $1,000/week to get by. I am just trying to make enough money to keep my family and household 'whole'. SO I don't set a goal on how much I have to make an hour and how many hours I have to work each week. That would be setting foolish goals that just make me feel like I am not producing enough and have to work harder and longer to get by. SO I do it backwards. I do the work and then when done I look at what I made for the time and effort I put in. If it's too low, I adjust the next time. I don't know what I would do if it's too high, that hasn't happened yet. ;D

[Old Greenhorn]

OK, I am going to take a shot at the numbers here. I am not posting the spreadsheets because I am no accountant and my format is likely a little odd, but it works for me. I kept records on all expenses, sales, and other cash flow. I did not track small expenses such as drinking water, meals on the road, etc. I also kept records on 'non financial indicators' such as driving hours and average time to collect each log (working time per day/number of logs per day). I kept track of my actual hours working and the days dedicated to this project. A work work day cutting counted as "1" whereas a local delivery counted as ".3" which is pretty accurate.  As mentioned in the previous post, I did not put a dollar value on my time (as an expense), instead I just added up the 'profit' then divided by the number of working and driving hours I had put in. This gave me an hourly result which I can use as an indicator of how I did. Hopefully this makes sense as I lay it all out.
________________________________
General numbers:
Total miles driven: 1,617 (this includes to and from worksite as well as deliveries, not driving in the woods)
Driving time: 47 hours (includes stops)
Working days: 14.3
Working Hours: 74 hours 15 minutes (actual working time harvesting or loading/unloading)
Total actual Hours: 121 hours 15 minutes (working + driving time)
Logs harvested: 556 (539 were sold, the rest given as 'extras' or shorts, or slight defects)
Average time per log: 7 minutes and 14 seconds (this is the working time per day divided the number of logs that day)
Time per log including driving time: 13 min. 5 seconds (same as above number but with that days driving time included)

--------------
Financials:
Total Expenses: $711.49 (this includes everything)
Fuel Expenses: $361.30 (included in the number above, but interesting to note separately for later discussion)
Sales (income): $2,540.84 (includes logs, sawdust, and any delivery charges collected)
Income less Expenses: $1829.35 (simple balance)
Income per hour: $15.09 (income after exp./total hours driving and working)
------------------

Discussion:
 The one metric I didn't collect was the number of trees I took. It means little, but I am curious. If I had to guess, based on a rough guess average of 5.5 logs per tree, that comes out to about 100 trees. 
Another important note is that I did not pay anything for these logs, I had a gracious benefactor and these trees will likely be cleared out anyway as part of the land rehab. They are also too small for a commercial firewood operation to deal with. Still, consider that if I paid $.50/log it would take another $278.00 off the bottom line and drop the hourly income to $12.80. Something to think about. In order to make it an ongoing concern, the landowner has to get something out of it besides a warm fuzzy feeling. It doesn't always matter because it is not a lot of cash, but it is something I need to work on.
 I started the work on June 1st and made my final delivery on July 2nd, so a month dedicated to this project.
 I will hold the 'what if' speculation based on these numbers for the next post. The numbers are what they are and I found them revealing. Yes this is a very small operation with low dollars compared to what others do here. With the exception of one day's work from a helper, all the work was done solo.
 In the next and final installment I will cover lessons learned and discuss some of those 'what if' options as well and talk about how I would change things if I do it again.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, it's a gloomy day outside and I want to finish this off while it is still fresh, then move on. So here is the last part: what did I learn, what would I change, and what will I do going forward?
 Some will recall in the beginning I was hot on getting a bigger trailer to do this work more efficiently but through no fault of my own could not find one in time. I have a 5.5' x 10' trailer and thought that was too small/light to be efficient. As it turned out, it was pretty much perfect. You see I could not manage to get much more than 70 logs on my best day and that fit just fine in this trailer. With the exception of one delivery of 130 logs I never overloaded and frankly a bigger trailer would have been overkill. I will still get that bigger trailer, but for other reasons, not these logs. Now I can wait until I find the right trailer for the right price.
 I had added a truck crane on the trailer (expense @ $194.77) and although I used it for the first half of the season, I didn't need it in the second half. No regrets on that one time expense and it has other uses. It did also allow for a longer work day when I used it, but I would like an improved version where I could adjust the boom length under load.
Improving the bottom line:
 If you look at the numbers a few things stand out.
 The obvious one is my log price. If I were to raise that to $5.00/log and not change anything else, it would put me at $19.50/hr and at $6.00/log it would be $24./hr. I asked my clients in a round about way how they felt on the pricing and the vast majority (all but one) thought my price was more than fair (one said I was pretty cheap) and they all had trouble finding a source until they found me.
 Another big one is driving time. If I took out the 47 hours of driving time it brings me to $24.60/hr. Now of course some driving is required no matter what and there are deliveries (which are paid for as a separate charge), but still the number goes way up. The only way to reduce this however is to find a log source much closer than 50 miles away. Not really do-able, but worth looking at for sure.
 Along with driving time is the fuel cost, which you may have noted was just over 50% of my total expenses at $361.00. Any amount I can bring this down would go directly to the bottom line. Again, this means either finding a closer source, taking more logs per day (less trips), or in the extreme, staying on site until larger loads are collected. My truck averaged 14mpg over the course of the month and I don't think I can do any better on that point.
Improving the process:
 Try as I might there was nothing major I could find that would make a fundamental improvement in productivity. I tried to think of ways to mechanize some of the work and little came to mind that wasn't overly expensive. True I did work on technique a lot because this allowed me to work longer and safer with a little less effort to get the logs off the stump and on the trailer, but these things were not very significant, except in how tired I felt at the end of the day. I found that cutting several trees in one area at the same time, then bucking them, then loading seemed to work best rather than doing each tree complete one at a time. I also got better at finding trees and figuring what I would get out of them. I finally settled on the perfect tree being about 9-10" on the stump with a pretty straight stick. I could get 8 or more logs out of these and leave a short firewood log besides. Early on, I adjusted my '4-6 inch' log diameter to include logs that ranged from 4" on one end (3-1/2 on the other) up to 7-1/2" diameter because I just could not leave that stuff as waste on the ground. Beyond what I have mentioned, I don't think I can come up with too much else to work on or improve but part of the reason I am sharing every detail is because the folks here are dang smart and often point out things I have missed. I am hoping that happens again.
 I learned and used a lot of information from this thread during the planning and execution process, so I am hoping that there will be a little bit more coming out yet. Also, for anyone looking into this, I wanted to put something down that was close to a comprehensive reference because I could find nothing else out there. Somebody has to do it.
 I can say that if I had not kept the records I did and reviewed them, I would likely never do this again. I say this because it 'felt' like I worked really hard and made almost no money at it. But looking at the numbers tells me that for my purposes I really didn't miss the mark too badly. The plan was pretty solid, there were few surprises along the way, nobody got hurt, and I sure did not 'lose money'. True, it was very tough on my body, especially the heat, but I did manage to harden up along the way and tune a few new muscles. My legs eventually got stronger and I think those 'off days' for recovery helped that to happen, it was like an extreme training program without paying for a gym membership.
Going Forward:
 I don't yet know if there will be a 'next season'. It depends on a log source first and foremost and that is a seasonal thing in itself. (If it wasn't for Barge, I never would have had this season at all.)  For sure, my price is going up to at least $5.00/log, that's a no-brainer. If it is too high for some folks, I can't help that, they are welcome to find another source, I will even recommend one who is cheaper. The higher  price will improve the bottom line and may also serve to reduce the large orders, which is also fine. I need to keep this work do-able in a short period so I can get back to other stuff. This is side work, not the main gig. So for now I am calling it a season. I do have two possible sources for small quantities of logs that are close to me and both have offered to let me look. So I plan to take a half day here and there and walk these properties during full leaf out to identify and flag possible trees. This gives the owner a chance to see what I would take if I could BEFORE I cut it and we can have a conversation about what works for their land management plan. These trees would sit marked and when I get a call for logs, they would be ready to cut during the proper season. Saves me time down the road finding them again too. If I get no orders, or drop the business, it is easy enough to pull the flagging off and if the landowner wants to keep a particular tree I have marked, they can remove the flag.
 I hope the contents of this thread helps somebody else down the road. I am no expert, but my research shows that there are no experts in this tiny niche, I also could find no information anywhere on the internet that is even close to what is in this thread. If you've found it, please share it here. Certainly you won't find a full financial study such as this so I took the effort to include it and share the knowledge. I hope it benefits somebody.
Tom

[Nebraska]

Tom I have a feeling you have moved the mushroom log industry  forward  a bunch. by honestly putting your analysis of your harvesting processes here in a forum where it will come up for others find.  
I would think that you could get short term interns to help, if you look in the right places, not sure what the insurance  you may need for them would look like.  A young person  would learn bunches just being in the woods with  you. Running a chainsaw, good felling practices, tree identification etc. 
 Where you can make this part of a TSI project close to home with less road time will make this look much better...
 I do think your rates should be a little higher, maybe a break at l 20 logs or less, 20 to 50 logs (a days time) 50 and up (multiple  days). 


Still liked the analysis  and write up, thanks enjoy the holiday.

[Nebraska]

I have been amazed sometimes with a handful  of folks who got "interns" to come to the farm and give free labor for the learning experience of ....(a list of things remember  over the years) 
Milking  cows
Berry Harvesting/ canning 
Dressing chickens
Building  paddock fences for rotational grazing
Installing active solar arrays
Straw bale gardening
There is more  but those  are the ones that came to mind quickly. 

My guess  is there are urban types willing to come experience  the real world just have to figure how to connect with them and not end up with too much headache.

[doc henderson]

well you did not loose money, that would really have sucked.  for the trips, a larger trailer with a helper would drop that.  If it was a kid, and you paid 10 bucks and hour, (provided they were as hard a worker as you, we can dream)  then you would more than break even.  most businesses rely on making more per hour than they pay the help.  might be a great grandson experience, but sounds like as they age and grow so will you so that may not work.  what is the state of the tree you need for harvest and how long and how must/can the "perfect" logs be stored.  will your bigger clients be stocked for a few years now, or do they anticipate a similar or larger order next year.  I am sure the larger order are for resale or for value adding to a course as you described.  at least then the price of the log going up 2 bucks can be passed on to a consumer.  seems like you could price larger logs more (maybe you did, but I do not remember)  I assume you can place more spawn, but also a heavier log for the less physical growers, or balcony grower in the city.  could consider price by the the pound of wood, if indeed a larger log produces more end growth.  this would help spread the cost of the trip, and effort out.  I assume the mushrooms rely on the sugar in the sap wood.  from what I have seen in nature, most "srooms" grow on the top or side of logs.  can a larger log, be split in half on the mill, and have a nice bearing surface (flat bottom)  and grow on the top.  what is the needed moisture in the log.  I assume high, as these are fresh.  I have had logs lay in the yard for 6 months and still sprout a bunch of small branches in the spring, with no roots.  I know you know this and it is spread throughout the thread, but I am just thinking out loud, and these are questions for you along with my thoughts, and I personally do not need these answered for me.  so in other words, do not feel you have exhaust yourself to re-answer these questions.  The other benefits, are health benefits of getting out and getting in shape.  you will likely see your stamina in the shop improve after all the wilderness boot camp you just completed.  You also seem to have gotten some satisfaction from the process of the study.  you also seemed like an old guy on vacation with video of the boats, and harbor, and very much enjoyed the problem solving process.  It is also hard to calculate the value of the contacts you made.  part of the efficiency may be when this is old hat for you, and you can get logs for milling in addition to mushroom logs so the trip is more profitable.  then the larger trailer will come in handy.  sounds like the visits to the forest (and the store for breakfast) were what you might enjoy, if you were dinking around trying to find something to do.  as your timber stand business grows, it may be the link as you describe, finding closer trees, and will be able to show, in a thought out plan, how the cull trees may not go to  waste.  I am just up, and work night 3 this evening.  we had a crazy day yesterday, with folks not coming in and worked with all kinds of nurses from around the hospital (not being used to the ED documentation and pace).  so this woods business, sounds kind of nice.  It can always be worse, and it can always be better.  oh well, to paraphrase, next year is another year!  

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, this is yet another reason I spent 3 hours typing up the summary, you guys bring up some great points as usual.
 Nebraska, I had forgotten to mention pricing structure in my summary, but yes, I need to add a premium for small orders such as 1-15 logs or so, those cost more in service time than they are worth. After 15 logs it is pretty much a wash. I do bunch all the orders together, so each cutting day I am maxed out on whatever I can get. If I had to do a run for just one client, like they guy who will call me tomorrow now that I am done and want 25 logs, yeah, the price will have to reflect that. Overall the will be a price increase if I go forward, no doubt.
 Rolling this into TSI or property improvement work is ideal, but tough to do. Usually these are the type trees I save out for future growth, but if I ever hit one that is overgrown like this last was, then yeah, I'd love to save out those logs.
 Interns, yeah well.... When Cornell first contacted me with their 1,000 log order, which whittled down to 300 I asked about student help and hit a wall, all kinds of paperwork and it would take too much time and it is not regular work, and of course, the insurance issue. But your idea of getting urban folks involved is an interesting angle that I must explore. I am always asking and looking for young folks however I can get them and perhaps learn them up a little. I'll keep pecking at it.

 Doc, I won't address all your points but for a few... That larger trailer buys me nothing until I collect over 120 logs/day (see discussion above). Log storage is a problem and after a few months they become firewood because the natural bacteria has entered the logs and will compete with the mushroom spores. Nobody has an exact number on this but it is widely understood that they need to be inoculated as soon as possible after cutting, 2 weeks or less is best. I stack the logs like cordwood and cover them with a piece of geo cloth to keep the sun off. If we don't have rain for a while I hose them down to keep the moisture up. The geo cloth lets the water run through. I think the longest I had logs 'in stock was perhaps a week and a half before I got them to the buyer. Most were delivered within a few days of cutting or even 24 hours.
 I wish I could charge more for heavier logs but that makes it really complex to sort on price. Yes, you can get more spores on a larger log, but a larger log will also produce for a year or two more than a small one. Most residential growers ask for smaller logs, most commercial growers don't want any 4" logs at all asking for 5-8". It's a tricky dance because I don't want to waste wood. There are also many growing styles. Some stand the logs up against a wire strung between trees, some stack like a cabin fir pattern, some plant one end of the log in the dirt. Some water the logs by soaking, some by watering (sprinklers) and some let nature do it. With all these variations, it is hard to find one working supply plan.
 Yes, this project had intangible benefits, that which does not kill us.... And I did add a bunch more contacts that may have other purposes down the road. All this is part of my daily goals anyway. No, I didn't lose money, but I didn't expect to either and would have bailed if it got that bad. But I did push the limit on what I could do in a day by myself and was a bit out of my comfort zone at times.
 If I could execute one of the fundamental improvements I listed above I would be in OK shape, if I could execute 2 of them I would be in good shape going forward. But it will never change that this all hinges on find trees I can take that have good access and that little nit is the Achilles heel on this whole thing.

 Thanks for the comments guys, they keep me thinking and improving.

[Nebraska]

Would a parafin sealing on the ends extend the shelf life of freshly cut logs thus retarding  bacterial entry, cold storage at say 35 degrees  might be useful too... :  I know not likely practical just waiting  for folks to show and wheels turned...

[WDH]

One sobering realization I discovered when I officially formed a LLC and declared myself as a business was the impact of insurance.   Especially commercial vehicle insurance.  I realized that if I used one of my personal vehicles in my business to haul stuff, my regular auto insurance would not cover me in the event of an accident because I was a business.  The cost of commercial vehicle insurance was shocking and continues to be shocking each year as the cost goes up as I renew it.  Be sure and check that your insurance coverage is in effect if are using your personal vehicle to go get or to haul or deliver mushroom logs. 

[Corley5]

  A guy we know on the other side of town grows shitakes on logs in his woods.  We traded some syrup to him a couple years ago for some fresh and dehydrated.  They're good.  Not as good as morels but good ;D
  In unrelated business dealings a processer of extracts from other naturals expressed an interest/made a suggestion to grow mushrooms using sawdust from my firewood processing.  I forget the name of the fungus but it wasn't one containing psilocybin.  It's not an edible mushroom but is further processed for the compounds it contains.  They're grown from hanging mesh bags that are kept damp.

[KEC]

A thought comes to mind: Instead of supplying a quantity of logs to someone who grows mushrooms to sell, cut and sell them one or 5 at a time to a hobby grower who wants their own mushrooms. Maybe build a rack with a roof over it out near the road and advertise. Let them come and get the logs and pay more than you'd get to delivery to a commercial grower. Or maybe find a retailer willing to carry the logs and sell them, much like some guys have worked out arrangements with retailers to sell bundled firewood.

[mike_belben]

market them as moon phase enhanced, aura inducing chia pets to moonbat hippies around the world. kissed by gaia and infused with lavender and all natural essential oils.  "ships to you" on facebook marketplace.  slam dunk.  

[Clark]

OG - First of all, kudos to you for tracking everything!  I agree with your sentiment that many would take a look at the general numbers and write this off as something that isn't worth their time. How they value their time is their own business but the smart businessperson evaluates with pen and paper what the potential assets and liabilities are before throwing it all into the bin. You've gone well beyond that and deserve a round of applause from us and everyone that will follow you.  smiley_clapping

As a former business owner I can offer a few insights and suggestions but like most advice, its probably worth what you paid for it.

It would make for a better baseline if you used the IRS mileage rate for your vehicle and trailer. It would make the financial analysis less profitable but would include the total cost of vehicle ownership.

I think your price needs to go up. If you're the only game in town then guess what? You get to decide the pricing structure. Price/pound makes a lot of sense and is likely the best representation for the growers of what they are buying but presents significant hurdles to implement. Have you thought about pricing it by diameter? Three different color paint sticks in the field would be an easy way to mark everything without adding significant cost or time...if you're customers aren't picky about size.

When it comes to continuing the process I think there are several options. One would be to get in good with consulting foresters. They likely have clients that could use your services if you're selling this as a pre-commercial thinning. The science of thinning overstocked trees is pretty well established. Your service would give them bigger trees faster at no cost (or direct payment) to them. 

The other option would be with State or County property. Granted, you get into more issues with insurance, workmen's comp, etc but the reality is they likely have stands of oak that would benefit from your work. That is a higher hurdle to jump but has the potential for a bigger reward. 

Clark

[Old Greenhorn]

Ah, you guys have some crazy ideas. :D
 Let me address a few of these things though. The pricing by weight may sound like a good idea at first, but the reality is that it's a non-starter. Just because there are few sellers around here does not mean I can redefine how logs are sold.  Selling by weight would be a logistical nightmare and human nature being what it is the vast majority of residential buyers will go for the smaller cheaper logs. Also, nobody in this business cares what a log weighs, they care how many logs they need. Everything is by the log, not by the pound. Imagine the questions: "How many logs can I get for 100 pounds?" if you have ever had to explain over and over and over again what a 'board foot' is, imagine if I tried selling by the pound? All the buyers will go cheap. That leaves me holding the bag on the bigger logs and I won't do that. It would set me up for a big loss on my time. Likewise pricing by size is also a non-starter. Trees do not come in 4", 5" and 6" sizes. Each tree will yield from 8" down to 4", every tree. As I told my last buyer, I get what I get out of each tree and she has to accept the range because I will not leave good wood laying on the ground. I cannot spend time and produce waste trying to coddle to picky buyers. The buyers I really want is commercial, not 1-15 log buyers that I have to spend a lot of time with for a $15 sale. This is also not supposed to be a full time business income. I would hate it if it was, too boring doing the same thing all the time. To paraphrase Levon Helm "I ain't in this for the money (entirely)", but I am favoring a 'get in and get out' philosophy which means selling a bunch of logs to a few buyers and getting done and moving on. It adds variety to my yearly cycle.
 Also, I have said this a number of times, but maybe it got missed. These things have a shelf life of 4-6 weeks. You can't leave them out in the sun on display, they won't sell like cordwood. This is a specialty field that requires other materials, knowledge and tools. Its not something folks will do on a whim.
 Nebraska, sealing logs is a good idea and I have asked this question of the experts I've met. Nobody has done a study on it and the general wisdom is that the ends of the log need to be able to absorb moisture during the soaking cycle, so they all (so far) have recommended not sealing the logs. I still think it might add to the shelf life but what do I know? They do advise to seal bruises and branch cuts with wax though, which adds to my confusion. I don't write the science here, I just cut logs.
 I appreciate the continued input, but there are a lot of, moving parts and technical issues as well as 'customer proclivities" involved in this tiny business. I have spent a lot of time figuring it out and don't think I will ever nail it completely, but it is interesting. The customers run the gamut from flaky to pros and seems to me it is much like the cross section most sawyers run into. (Think: "how much will you pay me to cut down my highly valuable walnut tree?")

[WV Sawmiller]

   @#)&%$! Fat fingered another reply off into cyberspace. I hate it when I do that.

   Great write up. Thanks for collecting and writing up your findings in such detail. I concur this does not look like a profitable stand alone enterprise and needs to be combined with other work although TSI sounds like a non-starter as you mentioned since these are likely the same trees people want to save.

   I like getting the urban wannabees suggestion. Charge them a fee to come cut and haul mushroom logs. Like people paying major universities a big fee to go on an archeological dig. They pay to go do all the grunt work under a supervising professor who gets all the credit.

    Think of Eustace Conway (Mountain Men TV series) down near Hickory NC who conducts workshops and people pay to come learn how to make shingles or skin a hog, tan a hide, pick blackberries or such on his Turtle Island Preserve. Also he gets interns who come work for free to learn his lifestyle. I'm on his mailing list and it is amazing what people will pay to come see and do.

   I assume you'd have people sign a waiver but you'd still likely need a good liability insurance policy with a safety plan and program approved by the insurance company.

   Sourcing wood?

    Can you conduct workshops as a consultant and charge a fee to have people come to their woodlot and show/train them the type trees needed and how to process them?

    Can you sell your services to come cut a set number of logs for people with them providing the trees? Be sure your pricing includes a minimum show up fee and is set up to make a minimum acceptable wage whether they have good or poor trees. Kind of like a minimum fee to bring a sawmill then charge by the hour or bf based on the conditions you find when you get there.

    How about cutting on shares where the landlord gets a certain percentage of the number of mushroom logs you cut off his property. Pricing would have to account for poor, medium or good woodlots. Maybe the owner gets a higher percentage based on larger quantities so the more logs his woodlot provides the more he gets to encourage access to better woodlots. Either you let him have and use or market his share of the logs or you market or buy them back from him. My dad and his brother used to cut firewood on shares as kids. The landlord got the first cut off the butt log off the tree and it was split, stacked and delivered to his place and they got the rest of the tree.

   Partnership with logger in the area especially where clear cutting will be done and the smaller trees you want will be cut. I'd think this would require some scheduling to let you go in first so the trees were not damaged by other larger falling trees in the area. A harder sell but might work in some cases. 

   How about construction/building sites where you get first access to high grade the useable trees then they come clear the rest as needed as part of their normal site prep work? It might take a while to get the right contacts for this and I don't know how you compensate them to encourage their support unless you give them a few logs or mushrooms and I assume you are not interested in the growing mushrooms aspect.

[aigheadish]

I like those ideas WV Sawmiller!

I thought similarly, about some woodworking stuff, to your last point, regarding construction sites. It's not uncommon, around here, to see a chunk of woods get knocked over for some developer to build McMansions on and I thought it'd be neat to get in ahead of time to acquire a fair amount of the good wood, before it was knocked over. Then, in consultation with the developer or home builders discuss pieces of furniture that could be built to be sold to, for, or with the houses being built there. Maybe it's a bar top, or a dining room table, or a mantle, or crown moulding, but I think the folks buying the houses would love to have pieces, in their house, that came from the property, at a premium. I don't know if idea this is a thing or not, but if not anyone is welcome to steal it. 

That could turn into a semi-neverending revenue stream, especially if you are reasonably skilled and get some workflow together, and a decent relationship with some home builders.

I think just about any company out there would love to tag any of their promotional stuff with how "responsibly" they use or take down trees, and they could brag about feeding people with the mushrooms those logs help create. There is tons of companies out there virtue signaling for all kinds of garbage, this would be an opportunity for them to signal for something good.

[WV Sawmiller]

Tom,

   A question I meant to ask earlier and is probably covered somewhere here or in your sister thread but who and how are the logs inoculated? Do you include that as part of your service when you sell the customer his logs or does the buyer have to do that himself? How are they inoculated? Do you buy a little bag of spores you sprinkle on the logs or something? Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks.

[Old Greenhorn]

Ah, now I got your disease. I typed a long comprehensive answer then fat fingered the entire browser window into oblivion. 2nd attempt:
 I just cut the logs, after that choices have to be made. I leave that to the grower.
 The logs are drilled with rows of 5/8" holes about 3/4-1" deep spaced about 4-6" apart. There are 4-6 rows of holes spaced around the log depending on diameter. The holes are filled with either loose spores or plugs purchased form a lab that makes them. The species and type are up to the grower. After inoculating, the holes are waxed over to seal them and any bark defects are waxed also. Then they sit, stacked in a cool shady place in the woods with as much airflow around the log as possible.
 There may be one small flush at the end of the season (fall) if the logs were prepped early enough in the spring. The following spring, when the weather conditions are right, the logs are either soaked or watered heavily for 24 hours to simulate heavy spring rains, then the logs are 'thumped', that is whacked on the end with a heavy hammer or mallet (I am NOT making this up) which is supposed to simulate the tree hitting the ground and wake up the mycelium (if I'm lyin', I'm dyin'). Then they get stacked again and in about 3 weeks (I think) they are about ready to harvest. Full time production growers will run a group of logs each week, that way they are harvesting every week, the logs need (I think) 3 weeks to rest after harvesting before then can be cycled again.
 Now it's true there is much bigger money in selling fully inoculated logs, but you have to choose a species, get the tools and materials and do the work, which is not too difficult, just work. Then you have to sit on them until sold but they will hold for the better part of the year before they hit a fruiting season. Inoculated logs sell for $25.-$40./ea plus shipping. AT this point I am just not ready to go there yet. Not everything is about the money. Buyers will of course hold you responsible for the log yield down the road regardless of how they took care of them. I am not too fond of that aspect.
 Anyway. I hope this answered your questions.

 Oh, and of course, now that I am done for the season I got a text from a new buyer who wants about 20 logs ASAP and wants to know how soon they could pick them up.  :D :D :D :D

[Nebraska]

Awww bummer folks  snooze you loose... it's obviously  after the end of legal mushroom log season, that was celebrated a few days ago... getting more towards dance board wood sawing, bench making, and I better cut firewood season.  ;)

[Old Greenhorn]

I drilled 15,000 holes last summer in ironwood and oak logs.  Spores were plugs, and capped with wax.

Will let you know how I make out this summer with the first crop.

Hey @dustintheblood ! This was 3.5 years ago, wondering how all that work worked out for you?

[SwampDonkey]

Never see anything like it around here. Shaga was going to be a big thing according to media hype. It kinda works like a pyramid scheme, the collector wasn't getting much when travel and time was factored in. Anyone I knew doing it was in the off season, seasonal worker or hobby farmer. You have to have an idea of where to look and have access, so most collectors tend to be woodlot owners or work a lot on public land. I could count on one hand the number of people who I knew about that were once interested. Only knew of one buyer in these parts. When there is only one buyer, it never works well for the collectors. 

[Oth]

Never see anything like it around here. Shaga was going to be a big thing according to media hype. It kinda works like a pyramid scheme, the collector wasn't getting much when travel and time was factored in. Anyone I knew doing it was in the off season, seasonal worker or hobby farmer. You have to have an idea of where to look and have access, so most collectors tend to be woodlot owners or work a lot on public land. I could count on one hand the number of people who I knew about that were once interested. Only knew of one buyer in these parts. When there is only one buyer, it never works well for the collectors. 

I don't know how 'professional' foragers manage it. I've heard of folks who start down south in February and work their way north through May as the morel season creeps along. The vast knowledge of particular spots that no one else knows about to make that work is staggering. You can't really just count on wandering around in the woods. You've got to know your trees down pat and be willing to walk for a quite a while with no guarantee of reward. Specifically on morels, I have to think they're getting pricier since half of my few local spots were mycorrhizal with ash trees. All gone now

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, you guys are talking mostly about 'foraging' which is finding and collecting mushrooms in the wild. I know very little about that and don't work with those folks. Here in NYS, by the way, you now need a permit and certification to forage if you want to sell them to shops or restaurants, or even individuals. The certification is not easy, you have to take a class which runs 3 days over 3 weekends and pass the test, which in part requires identifying over 200 different mushroom types. I was 'around when my friend and client John was working of the class syllabus for that program and he taught part of the first few pilot programs. I thought I might take it, just for fun, but when I read the class plans, I realized it was like another job requiring a LOT of study and I backed off. I didn't think I could pass that test, in any event.

 I work with growers, from the curious "I just wanna try it" types, to the full time "doing it for years" full farming operations. It's not a pyramid scheme for the latter, they are making good money. But the dirty little secret is: It's a LOT of work. Full time farmers are used to that and have the equipment and faculties. They also need the high end targeted marketing, direct to high end restaurants or major specialty wholesale outlets. That is THE key to it all, selling take work that a lot of folks don't like to do or have the skills for.

 This story is not typical, BUT it is an interesting example. When I first got started I had a guy from NJ come get a BUNCH of logs (close to 200). We hit it off and chatted a while. This was still in the depths of COVID days and it turned out he was a body building, weight lifting coach, and personal trainer. He was trying the mushroom logs just to fill in some time and thought they were fascinating 'things'. Well he inoculates his logs and sets them up around his place. He thought he would have to wait a year, but that first fall he discovers he has mushrooms popping out all over and now he has a full time job for a few weeks clipping and drying his crop. He had a big mess of mushrooms and no idea what to do with them all he is giving them away to family and neighbors and still has a pile. So he mentions it to a friend and that friend suggested bring some over to the gourmet restaurant around the corner. Well, the Chef takes some and tries them. He calls the guy back and says he will buy every mushroom the guy has. He is still buying them and BOOM, he's in business. He's been back every year to get more logs and expand, and grow at least 3 different strains. Shitakes, Wine caps, and Lion's Mane. We stay in touch. This year he has quit his job and although he is still selling, he didn't buy logs as he has gone back to school for an engineering degree. But he told me to expect and order next year. 

 But I want to find out how @dustintheblood made out with all those holes.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, I know some folks found out in a hurry around here, if you sell mushrooms it's like running a meat shop, a license plus your premises where you prepare it can be inspected at any time.

[Frickman]

Twenty-five years ago we had a big fad of growing shitake mushrooms come through here.  Everyone was going to get rich.  I had a lot of orders for logs.  Let me tell you something, as a logger/sawmiller who was extremely busy all the time it was not worth the effort.  Oh, producing the "bolts" was easy enough. I could always cut them out of oak tops as I felled the trees.  It was the special handling that cost time and money.  Here I was running a conventional operation hand-cutting timber and skidding with small cable skidders and forwarders.  I was skidding tree length and cut-to-length logs, eight feet long and longer.  And then I had to figure out how to skid/forward three and four foot long sticks and not scuff up the bark when doing so.  No thank you, it's not for me.  And then the customers always were very, very picky about quality, no scuff marks or scratches on the bark.  They always thought I just went to the "log warehouse" and picked up a load of logs.  They never realized wood is a natural product and the process to produce logs is very physical and dangerous. 

I can see if a person had access to the wood, cheap, and a way to cut it and handload directly on a pickup truck or tractor and cart you could make it work.  And then your marketing has to be top-notch.  You have to sell the "sizzle" along with the "steak" to get enough $ to make it all worthwhile.

Back when I was in the industry I made a name for myself working in a lot of specialty and niche markets nobody else would enter.  It made me a good living.  Mushroom logs was not one of those markets.

Oh, and one more thing.  It was hard to get a good price out of mushroom logs because "It's just wood." Around here, nobody thinks wood is worth anything until they have some to sell.  And then they always want a fortune.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I have been cutting these logs since 2020, and one thing I will say is that there is not one thing that you said that I don't agree with.   Spot on, right down the line.
 I am not surely not trying to make a living off these logs, I do it to add to my income seasonally for a change of pace and I have my price up to where it really does make a difference and is worthwhile (for me). But it is everything you said it was as far as hard work and yeah, I do lift and carry every logs, at least 3 times if I'm lucky, 5 if I'm not.
 BUT, as you said, there is a lot in the marketing end and a lot of folks don't have the time, patience, or finesse to deal with that part. I have built a small but valued list of framers that really do grow mushrooms for market as part of the crops, and they are pretty easy to deal with, especially after the first sale. They know that I understand their business, take it very seriously, and keep my promises. They also know they get good logs from me. I took a few years to build that rep, but it's working now. I picked up 3 new farms this season because I am the only guy around they can find and get return calls from, let alone logs.
 Treat it like a business and you can build it, treat it like a source for some extra cash and it won't do much for you. I started at $3/log, that ended quick and I went to $4/log which was nearly break even or a little better, $5/log and I started to see some daylight. Now I am at $6/log and it's pretty darn good money. If folks don't like my price I happily refer them to others who proport to sell these logs in our state. One did buy logs from another guy and called me up 3 weeks later, drove 3 hours to get here and bought logs from me. The other logs he got, he said were junk and all dried out, sitting around for months he thought.

 Funny you post this today. I had a series of correspondences today with a gal at one of the county (not mine) cooperative extensions connected with Cornell University (also a former log client of mine). She is putting together a new program for loggers in September. Something about 'Alternative revenue streams for loggers'. She had asked if I could prepare a session on cutting logs as it seems I am the only one in our state that is doing it as a business, keeping notes, and selling every season, with repeat clients. I sell logs in 3 states now.
 But you are right, it IS a LOT of work! Some days it kills me. But at least now I can afford to pay my chiropractor.