iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Clearing an old pasture

Started by aquinnk, January 16, 2021, 11:09:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

thecfarm

Correct on the pine will not put of suckers. 
But on my land, disturb the soil and I have nothing but EWP coming up.  :o  It's just like a good carpet. That mini bush hog does a good job on them.  ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

kantuckid

EWP story- I dug up 5 wild EWP seedlings then transplanted them near to our new house I was building in 1979-80. Contrast those 5 EWP's to the thousands I planted in late 1990's which came from genetically selected state tree farm seedlings and now much larger then the older 5. My 1990's trees are so much bigger it's amazing!
 My general point is that it's worthwhile to use good stock if an area is to grown back in trees, when logical.  
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

SwampDonkey

Some of that is not genetics. It can also be shade tolerance or shade versus sun grown. I've seen white pine 30 years old and not even 5 feet tall. I have seen white pine 30 years old and 50 feet tall. Even when transplanted from shade to full sun, those early growing years affects trees greatly. The soil conditions, add that to the equation, then add microclimate. ;D

Seen it in red spruce to. Oldest red spruces found are over 400 years old and not even 20" diameter. I have found 160 year old red spruce 36" diameter, big as white pine. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Southside

Add to that the soil compaction from building a house and you really can't compare the two situations.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

kantuckid

FWIW, the house aspect is a non-factor in my point. The "slow ones" are adjacent the road coming up to the house but on the edge of a wooded area, not a construction site. The tree farm EWP's are on the same exact soil type beginning about 50 yards from the 5 older trees. One of the 5 planted when I was building ended up too close to my gravity fed spring water cistern and is twice as large as the other 4 which might be 100' away-it had lots of water near its roots and it's very close in size to the younger plantation trees. They do in fact choose genetically superior stock to grow at my nearby state tree farm-so said the forester I was working with. Same is true for the Virginia Pines in the alternate rows in my plantation. 
Back to garden plots... ;D
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

SwampDonkey

Quote from: kantuckid on January 21, 2021, 01:39:54 PM
They do in fact choose genetically superior stock to grow at my nearby state tree farm-so said the forester I was working with.
Back to garden plots... ;D
What that entails is 1) selecting seed from dominant trees, expressing desirable traits (phenotype), in a stand of like trees, 2) grafting cuttings from such from the crown, that is 'mature' and flowering age, onto host plants and then breeding with controlled pollination or 3) cloning older parts of the tree with rooted cuttings or grafted to root stock that will flower sooner than a young tree. Over time you cull undesirables. This is a slow genetic gain process, but quicker than nature. When you replicate the experiment over different sites in the species range within the same latitude you select the better genotype of that species to grow in the nursery for planting in a certain region. I've read articles from forestry journals a couple decades ago that said the genetic gain was within 2%, nothing huge. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

kantuckid

Plant Genetics: I've been searching for an open pollinated extra large, productive jalepeno pepper seed, which would allow not being forced into an F1 hybrid  to start our plants. Whats often called a heirloom. On ebay I ran onto lots of what I'll call opportunist seed sellers. They were simply saving seeds from an F1 they grew or bought at the store and reselling them with no selection process, which as you point out is laborious, to say the least. 
I found one seller from the mtns in GA, my age who had done that work for me and was selling the Mucho Nacho Jalepeno pepper seed at the point of F8 or so. She said she'd lost track at that point so might have been longer in years. In KY, the wood industry is huge and a 13 billion $ plus industry. There are several tree farms scattered around the state and one is ~ 20 miles from me. 
I suspect they know what they're doing as they are staffed by tree experts and grow hundreds of acres. I had a kid in my KYARNG platoon who worked there and always felt sort of sorry for him as he got laid off every winter and destined to never get a retirement as it was called part time work. The trees are available to the public and sold in wrapped bundles at a great price point too. 
FWIW, I used to read forestry journals too as my wife worked at our local USDA Dept of Agriculture Job Corps center thus there was a forester holding down a desk job there (like always they leave the woods for the money) and he saved me his forestry magazines so I could learn about something I've never studied formally. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

SwampDonkey

I've had the opportunity, albeit brief, to work with 2 tree geneticists at Forestry Canada. That doesn't make me an expert by a long shot. But I learned how stuff happens. In about 2000 we were cutting red spruce the size of large white pines off a town lot, we were cutting at the time seed should be ripening. I gave one of the folks I worked for a call, and let them know if they were interested in red spruce seed off very large trees, they should come on up. He knew exactly where to go when  gave him a brief run down of the location. Some of the seed was collected and put into cold storage to preserve the genetics. A bunch of seed I sent to the provincial tree nursery. Later forestry companies were interested in the seed for their own nurseries, notably the Irvings for their freehold lands. Provincial government grows all their own trees for crown (pubic) lands. I don't know if they grew any seedlings themselves off the seed since I switched gears by that time.

Just one of them things you don't forget. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Treeflea24

My $.02:
1.5 acres is an awful lot of garden. You might find that it is easier to manage and keep up a smaller plot. Maybe consider starting small and expanding if/when necessary.
It also sounds like a tractor is not in this picture.
That means your main day-to-day gardening implements will be your body, hand tools, and hopefully at least a mower.
Your time and energy are your most available resources, and you dont have lots of money to throw at this.
With all of that in mind, I'd say to go the chainsaw / clearing saw route and get some exercise. The chainsaw is the better of those two options IMO. Flush cut the pines low enough for a mower to clear the stumps, and forget about removing the stumps - your going to be toiling in this garden with shovels and hoes, etc. so there is no concern about plowing into them, right? If there is a 1' gap in your row of crops because of a stump, who cares?
Maybe better yet, cut the pines off at 3-'4 high and delimb the stump and now you have a post for hanging your hat or resting your beer on while your toiling. Or you have half of a trellis to grow your cucs on. If you find you dont like it you can flush cut it later.
If you're cutting other trees/bushes that will resprout, paint the stumps with an herbicide - there is lots of info about that on this forum.
If your married to the idea of keeping the mulch and organic matter, rent a chipper for a day and feed it the brush youve cut. A brush pile will be a motel for many of the critters you dont want in your garden, so keep that in mind when you decide whether to do it, and where to put it. Burning gets it gone quick, but is the least effective and can be counterproductive in terms of amending the soil, and will leave an imbalanced patch at the burn site (assuming you burn it as a pile).

With all of that being said, if you go the skid-steer-forestry-mulcher route, you might also find that a set of forks on that skid steer can be stabbed through the soil at the base of the tree and grub the whole thing up at once (to be mulched after). Or it may be done after the mulching to pull just the stump. I like to set the forks close to each other (~1') when doing this. These are 1-4" dia trees, right? This would depend on the soil that you are working in.

-

mike_belben

Yeah a 1.5 acre garden will feed a football team, and keep them busy all the time.  Too big for most families. 
Praise The Lord

SwampDonkey

I kinda chuckled when I read the original post again, "1.5 acre pasture" stood out. What did it pasture?  A trailer? :D

Well considering I have several things going on here on 1.5 acres. I have berry gardens, fruit trees, grapes and veggie gardens. Of course there is green lawn area in between them. But if you consider all that, 1.5 acres isn't that much. Certainly will keep you busy, but not full time unless you like standing and waiting for a weed to pop up so you can pluck it. :D :D I cut brush and mark out lines all day and still tend gardens. That ain't noth'n that one man can't tend. Vine stuff takes a lot of garden space, tomatoes to. You use a pile of cukes and maters in pickles and sauces and not have as much as you think you might after it is all processed. With maters, making sauce you'll use many x's more maters than you think to make a couple pints of sauce. :D Takes a lot of berries to make any amount of juice. Won't be growing near enough to make 12 bottles of juice I bet. :D  

Feed a football team, "I think you'll need a bigger garden". :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

stavebuyer

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 25, 2021, 04:42:24 AM
I kinda chuckled when I read the original post again, "1.5 acre pasture" stood out. What did it pasture?  A trailer? :D

Well considering I have several things going on here on 1.5 acres. I have berry gardens, fruit trees, grapes and veggie gardens. Of course there is green lawn area in between them. But if you consider all that, 1.5 acres isn't that much. Certainly will keep you busy, but not full time unless you like standing and waiting for a weed to pop up so you can pluck it. :D :D I cut brush and mark out lines all day and still tend gardens. That ain't noth'n that one man can't tend. Vine stuff takes a lot of garden space, tomatoes to. You use a pile of cukes and maters in pickles and sauces and not have as much as you think you might after it is all processed. With maters, making sauce you'll use many x's more maters than you think to make a couple pints of sauce. :D Takes a lot of berries to make any amount of juice. Won't be growing near enough to make 12 bottles of juice I bet. :D  

Feed a football team, "I think you'll need a bigger garden". :D
Evidently tundra gardens are different. I'll side with Mike. 3 crop rotations in the same dirt each season is typical for me. I started mowing last year in early March and mowed every 4 days until Thanksgiving. Living where the temps and humidity are both commonly the 90s; I think it would be amusing to watch someone show me how to do hard labor in the mid-day sun and then hand them a hoe around 5pm to try and weed in baked clay with the thermometer tickling 100 and the air dead calm.

SwampDonkey

You have to work smart, is all it takes. Early mornings Saturday, Sunday, evenings on cloudy days. A garden does not require your presence every to do hard labour, many days your just inspecting your plants for health or picking something to eat.  Our summers here are increasingly in the 90's from June to September. Not the historical norm for us, but true for the last 4 summers. In fact the first 90's days last year were the end of May, the previous 3 years the first week of June. We do one garden crop a year up here, that's the same work as 3 rotations. No harder to hole a row for a seed as to hoe for weeds. Fruits only flower once a year, one crop. And grass, when it is dry and hot, grass is rarely mowed, it doesn't grow. Not up here at least. Last summer, I never mowed more than 6 times and it is never moved in September. Some old farts do, something to do with themselves and ride around doing it. Mow it every 3 days, blowing more dust than grass clippings. :D

Hay on fields is typically cut twice a year, after August the hay is not as good as June-July.

My gardens are small but lots of them. For instance one patch can grow cukes that the beetles never bother. If I plant them on another patch I have the beetles devour them. Have not figured out why to this day. My English cukes grow as big as zucchini, if I let them. I don't let my gardens get overrun by weeds as you see below. And I use zero pesticides, zip. Last summer I had to haul water on my SxS all season, no rain at all for months. Would not have had a garden at all.

One of my many gardens.



Some folks must have more stuff after work to do than tend gardens, I don't. I like to garden, so the garden gets full attention.

That little strip of green between the beets is parsnip, they will be harvested this spring. :)

Grapes on a new garden. Frost hit them hard after they flowered last spring, but they came back. And then we had to head off the robins and blue jays, as they had planned a raid that we interrupted. :D

earlier in the season



Juice, elderberry, grape, blackberry.



Notice the dead lawn, not going to mow much this week. :D

spaghetti sauce. Trust me, 5 gallons of tomatoes does not make a lot of sauce, maybe 2 pints. :D



Some of us are quite familiar with hard work, thank you very much. Thank goodness for winter. :D :D :D

Come on up and use my clearing saw for a 40 hr week and I'll give ya a $500 bonus. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

thecfarm

Gardens can take some time. Some think they can plant and have weeds higher than what they plant and than wonder why the garden don't produce much.
I have grass across the road, an old field, that will produce grass almost year around.  :D  Before they ditched the road here, I have mowed that with a stocking hat to keep the grass down so when they plow the road I could rake the rocks out of the grass easy. But up by the house I have no more than 2 inches of top soil. Not much mowing going on come mid July.  ;)
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Southside

Having grown up maybe 75 miles west of you SD and now living down this way I can say the growing condition differences are impossible to comprehend until you experience it. 

Yes, I remember some 90 degree days, and it was hot, but down this way it is just plain oppressive when it is 90 and 90 at 9:00 PM for weeks at a time. It rains here in the summer and you really don't want to see the sun come back out because it's gonna get nasty. 

Right now my Daffodils are up a few inches. Night and day difference. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Southside on January 26, 2021, 07:23:00 AM
Having grown up maybe 75 miles west of you SD and now living down this way I can say the growing condition differences are impossible to comprehend until you experience it.

And yet, early 20thC they did it in the south or starved. American economy back then was mainly agriculture until the war. You see old film of early tractors that came to market, they never had them here for years after. Not before the 50's in fact. There was no money, they didn't give them away. Yet my great grand father farmed 300 acres with horses and men. 1-1/2 acres? :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mike_belben

Well, the OP doesnt sound like your grandad, so im sticking with the concept that 1.5 acres of garden is a lot to jump into first time for a fellow who hasnt got a chainsaw yet and has to start with woods.  

;D
Praise The Lord

SwampDonkey

Gardening's not for wimps. New book. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mudfarmer

People here make a living on 1.5 acre market gardens, but these are intensely managed, multiple crops per season where possible etc.

If it's a home garden yeah put in some grape vines they take up a ton of space, some fruit trees of a couple varieties, berry bushes, then your annual row crop garden space isn't so big you'll never bother to weed it :D

SwampDonkey

Quote from: mudfarmer on January 26, 2021, 08:45:59 AM
your annual row crop garden space isn't so big you'll never bother to weed it :D
How much ya want to bet? :D Grass, thistle, burdock, purple vetch and dandelion all want to take over in this part of the world. If you let that trash take over like the 'kids' across the road do, you ain't got no berry garden. :D Should see their raspberry and rhubarb, now rows of burdocks and other tall weeds. Oh it's gut busting laughter. :D These are folks with "intensive" gardening. Yeah, making fortunes. I want that book. :D :D


Some of you fella's I can tell aren't gardening much. There is a time of year you get a big flush of weed species, then that quiets down and you more or less groom it keeping the weeds at bay without having to cover every square inch with the hoe. Mulch is your best friend, and not the kind full of weed seeds. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mike_belben

My garden is the size of a living room.  I have no issue with weeds.. Sawdust and grass compost just keep going ontop.


But the sun here in the southeast will scorch a crop like nothing, even without a water interruption.  I have no qualms with lugging buckets. Next is just wave after wave of bugs.  For me its flea beatles, cucumber beetles, june bugs, hornworms, cutworms, aphids, and a variety of catapillars.  You go to bed with a nice row of lettuce and next morning it looks like an umbrella frame. Turn your back for a day and something eats it.  Or.. You get that all settled and a neighbors chicken shows up to peck every fruit you slaved for. Click click boom goes the feather pillow but not til he wrecked a lot of work.


And then a week of summer thundershowers where the air is just a curtain of water particles 24/7 present the perfect condition for a huge blight to take the next wave out. Even the trees are splotched 50 feet up or even leafless on a bad year.  It looks like fall in august.


Youre pretty close to insulting a lot of peoples hard work by insisting its a piece of cake.  Youre free to come give it a shot if you dont believe us.  Outdoor organics is incredibly hard in the southeast without chemicals.  All the neem oil and beneficial bug youtube stuff is a bunch of crap too.  The places where it works, are NOT the same as the places where it dont.  You have a beautiful garden, i respect your knowledge and i know you know what youre doing there.  But you aint done it in georgia alabama carolina yet. 
Praise The Lord

mudfarmer

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 26, 2021, 10:14:39 AM
Quote from: mudfarmer on January 26, 2021, 08:45:59 AM
your annual row crop garden space isn't so big you'll never bother to weed it :D
How much ya want to bet? :D Grass, thistle, burdock, purple vetch and dandelion all want to take over in this part of the world. If you let that trash take over like the 'kids' across the road do, you ain't got no berry garden. :D Should see their raspberry and rhubarb, now rows of burdocks and other tall weeds. Oh it's gut busting laughter. :D These are folks with "intensive" gardening. Yeah, making fortunes. I want that book. :D :D


Some of you fella's I can tell aren't gardening much. There is a time of year you get a big flush of weed species, then that quiets down and you more or less groom it keeping the weeds at bay without having to cover every square inch with the hoe. Mulch is your best friend, and not the kind full of weed seeds. ;D
I think my thought wasn't stated clearly or you completely misunderstood. I was not saying that you would not -have- to weed it, just that it would be smaller so that you -would- weed it, which was part of the topic of the discussion (a beginner biting off a 1.5acre garden).


Also do not understand why you are laughing about "intensive" gardening. Like you said to me one time, there are plenty of books with info so have a look in some of them. Who knows you might learn a new trick or two?? Nobody is making a fortune here growing vegetables but there are families providing a living and that is all that I stated.


As for the rest... Yes it looks like you grow a nice garden but a lot of other people do too, and it would be wise to give them the benefit of doubt without making pith poor assumptions and as mike said bordering on insulting ::) ::)

SwampDonkey

Not really trying to insult anyone. But I am very used to local folks trying to insult my intelligence about farming and gardening that is it sometimes ridiculous. Sometimes you just have to smile and wave back. Maybe I'll do less typing and more smiling.  :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Southside

Three words - warm season weeds - never saw such a menace up in The County, but get down this way and it is a world of difference.  I have zero issues with cool season weeds, grasses, etc - but that all changes about the 4th of July.  Thistle was up earlier this month and growing in the pastures, the burdock down this way will eat your burdock for breakfast, it's a different plant and very, very, aggressive.  Ever seen sicklepod? Johnson Grass?  Try killing Fescue.  It's just a different world.    
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

SwampDonkey

I'm sure there are weeds down there we don't have, one needs to be vigilant. I've dealt with a pile of burdock and thistle over the years. Those do get roundup, but it is not on my gardens, more at the edges or in the lawn strips and also on my property edge some burdock seeded in I suppose from wildlife. The neighbor's farm is perimetered in the stuff and the wild turkeys love it in winter. ;D In the berry rows they are uprooted by hand and shovel or hand spade. Chickweed, purple vetch or barnyard grass can be very aggressive if you let it take hold. I never give it much chance. I even pull that grass when it is barely up, you can just see a green spec. I remove a lot of vetch from the berries and grapes or you'd have nothing but vetch. ;D Weeds slow down a lot after late July up here, they are making lots of seed by then and the dryness will turn any new germinate a dwarf in dry dirt. ;D Once your garden is up and filling the rows with foliage, weeds haven't much chance. :) I only see one bug of concern around the grapes and that is flea beetles, they also eat basal. I spread the basal in different locations and small clumps. The bug doesn't touch the grape leaves until almost the end of August. I squish'm like tater beetles. I never have many tater beetles, but some. Gotta keep them squished. Firm believer in healthy plants, I see the results in my beet experiment. Kept them healthy with water and nutrients, no black spot or leave holes. No sprays. No corn borer in my corn, never even seen a moth. Years ago when the garden was run down on nutrients they was around. I'm not a corn man, I think it wastes garden space for all I eat. So decided not to grow any this year. I never buy it in the store. I'd rather have nice string beans, fresh and mustard bean pickles. :) Our burdock will grow head high, in case you forget, ~6'. They usually prefer the best ground. They are stout enough to make walking sticks with, the neighbor a mile down the road makes them. Rugged enough? I know, I said "what!?!" to. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Thank You Sponsors!