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Belted vs. all-metal band wheels

Started by Ga Mtn Man, February 05, 2012, 01:17:10 PM

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Ga Mtn Man

I'm planning on buying a portable bandmill in the near future and I'm working my way through each  manufacturers' web-site trying to sort out the pros and cons.  I ran across this statement on one of our sponsor's web site:

"19" All Metal Balanced Bandsaw Wheels - allows the bandsaw blade to run true with no vibration typical with belt insert band wheels since they cannot be balanced. No changing of belts and no belt deterioration from drip lubricants".

So far they are the only one that I've come across that uses an all metal band wheel.  Any opinions on the subject?  :-\
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

Island Sawyer

 Thera are a few guys in my area who have taken their wheels to a machine shop to have steel belts welded in place and a slight crown machined on them. The mills were woodmizers but you could probably do it to most any of the mills out there.

petefrom bearswamp

I have had no issues with vibration with my WM and I don't use a lot of lube now but with my last WM, I used a mix of diesel and chain and bar oil with no adverse results.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

Magicman

Different sawmill manufacturers have done their own research and have designed their products accordingly.  I would be hesitant to question the different ideas as right, wrong, good, bad, or better.  Each manufacturer certainly believes that their design is the best, but I particularly dislike any manufacturer that would attempt to degrade another sawmill or product design in order sell their own.  I prefer positive advertising rather than negative.

Also, my recommendation is to use the blade lube, etc. that is recommended or approved by that particular manufacturer.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

pineywoods

There's one more option, loose belts vs tight belts. Lots of arguments both ways. I'm firmly in the loose belt column. They just don't look right, but work just fine thanku
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

tyb525

I use what works good, and loose v belts work good. WM has used that design since their first mill, and it has always worked great for me.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

kelLOGg

Quote from: Ga_Mtn_Man on February 05, 2012, 01:17:10 PM
"19" All Metal Balanced Bandsaw Wheels - allows the bandsaw blade to run true with no vibration typical with belt insert band wheels since they cannot be balanced. No changing of belts and no belt deterioration from drip lubricants".

Sounds like Cook. I have one and it is the only mill I've run/owned. The wheels are balanced very well. After looking at other manual mills before I made my purchase (9 yrs ago) I selected the Cook's because it had the least vibration. The crowned steel wheels may be a little noiser since it is steel running on steel but I have no belts to replace. Just my limited experience.
Bob
Cook's MP-32, 20HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw setter and sharpener, tandem trailer, log arch, tractor, thumb tacks

tyb525

Oh- The WM wheels are indeed balanced. If you look, you can see places where some material has been drilled out in order to balance them. Sure the belt might not be, but since it's weight is small in comparison to the wheels, I can't see it being a big issue. Your engine's vibrations will have a bigger impact than any minute wheel vibrations.
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

bandmiller2

Really a non issue,I've run tight belts on my bandmill probibly eight years their just fine and I use diesel&oil lube.When I ran the LT- 70 mizer we ran loose.I'd have no quams about running crowned steel.More advertising hype than anything. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Ga Mtn Man

Thanks guys for all your input.  For someone who knows next to nothing about band mills, all the info from so many different manufacturers can be a bit overwhelming.  But I shall persevere and I WILL have my own mill someday soon. 8) 8) 8)
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

mikeb1079

i agree that it's marketing.  i was in your shoes before i built my mill and i ended up using some old crappy bandsaw wheels that are out of flat and had old half worn out belts.  i was really nervous that they wouldn't work or the blade would fly off, but they work wonderfully and leave a fine finish (until you hit a nail).   :)  most likely any mill you get will treat you right.   8)
that's why you must play di drum...to blow the big guys mind!
homebuilt 16hp mill
99 wm superhydraulic w/42hp kubota

slider

i concur with bandmiller just not a big deal.i've run them loose ,run them tight .i've run diesel and all kinds of soap with no bad results .i think the  steel wheels would be just fine but vibration is just not a big issue with the belts.  al
al glenn

thecfarm

I have the belt insert band wheels on my. Nice and smooth.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

rockman

kioti ck-20 loader backhoe, box blade, disk, log arch
Husqvarna 455 rancher
Lincoln Ranger 10,000 welder

Ga Mtn Man

Yeah, that video and the one from Cook's seem contradictory.  Both companies went through a similar evolutionary process but came to different conclusions.  As other folks have said, I suspect it doesn't matter much in the end.
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 LogRite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

buildthisfixthat

on 19 " or larger wheels all metal wheels on smaller wheels v-belt or rubber tire over metal
shop built bandsaw mill

petefrom bearswamp

The video makes valid points.
On the WM belt change takes about 4 or 5 minutes and I change about  once a year for about 60 bucks or so..
If the crowned steel wheels are the cats meow why do you have to use a band roller?
I'm not saying that it doesn't work, just inquiring.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

JFarmer

Well just from my experience, I ran a LT70 with belted wheels and a LT40 with belted wheels. When I converted my 40 over to electric i noticed my blades where vibrating very bad and breaking after the first sharpening. I told a friend of mine about it and he told me I should switch over to steel wheels. so I ordered a set from cooks and it solved all of my problems. Now I am sawing faster with my mill and not breaking bands as often. I just wish I would have put them on my 70 when I had it, it would have really helped it.Also I have a baker resaw with steel wheels and really like it too. I am sold on steel wheels now!
LT40 electric,woodmizer twin blade edger,cooks catclaw sharpener,suffolk setter, john deere 450 dozer, case 90xt skidsteer, 7010 4x4 mahindra tractor

Migal

I like the diameter rule is what i was thinking when ordering my mill and Herman assured me that he only new one mill that actually had so much work that needed replaced He sounded very honest and they are local to my area was my determining factor. okay price did have a part in that decision  :D
Stihl learning and picked up my Log Master LM2 Cat 34hp 02 21 12! 230MF+ the toys that go with it! MS361 MS271 Stihl PB500 Echo 48" LogRite 16ft Bass Tracker Pro' Abua Garcia 5600 bait caster, Wood working equipment' Lake Lot never enough time! oh don't forget the fridge with ale! Loving Wife Rebeca

backwoods sawyer

I ran 24" steel wheels for several years until they developed a crack between the balance holes that kept growing.
I could have ordered a set but with several months delay.
It cost $cost $125 and two trips up north to have them recrowed.  So went with the belted wheels last spring. I have changed two belts and the second set is well broke in.  I preferred the all steel wheels, but the belted wheels are performing just fine.
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Handy Andy

  I have a Cooks MP32, 7 years old, blades track just fine, most of the noise comes from the guide rollers. My mill runs very smooth, makes it fun to cut lumber.  If it were just so easy to handle the lumber after it is sawed.  My problem is everything I think is fun is work!
My name's Jim, I like wood.

wdwomack

I have had a TimberHarvester hd36 and now own a Tk2200. The Th had 24" belted wheels and the the TK has 19" belted wheels. I ran the the TH for 9 years and the TK for the last two months. On the TH my blades ran smooth and true and I only replaced the belts about four times. Mostly because the the belts wore down too much from normal wear, once from damage done when a blade broke. My blade breakage was seldom.

On my TK my first blade broke before I cut 100bf and it tore up the belts on both wheels. I ordered  B57 belts from TK and they lasted about 500 bf and they started to come unraveled on the edges and started throwing blades off. There was much vibration in the blade and it caused the adjustable blade to vibrate at least 3/8 of and in or more. I used diesel fuel as a lubricant on the B57 belts Just as I had done for the nine years I had run my timber Harvester.

I took off the B57 and went to NAPA and got B56 belts and put the them on.  The took me a day and a half to get them on.  As soon as I tried to run them it started throwing the the blades off again. I put one on three times and figured that something else had to be wrong, and started checking the tracking. Everything about the tracking was out of wack. Both wheels were tilted out of plumb, one opposite of the other by about a half a bubble and they were both out of parallel. Surprising, for a brand new mill right out of the factory, to me. After a day of relining the wheels and adjusting the tracking, I did all the tests for tracking and everything seemed to pass and I started up the mill and slowly brought it up to full speed and proper blade tension and found that it ran fairly good, some vibration in the the blade, but good tracking. I left it run for half and hour and ran the speed up and down a few times and kept checking to be sure it was okay. Then I turned on the lubrication to make a cut and off flew the blade again!

I called Mike at TimberKing again and was the belts from NAPA that was the trouble  because the sat too low in the grove in the wheel. The blade actually rode on the edges of the wheels and flat across the top. Also he told me that the diesel fuel could not be use as a lubricant on that machine. There was no reason why I could use it for nine years on my first machine, unless something had changed. But I would have to get the same make of belt they used on the their machines. So, I ordered more belts.

Another three days down waiting for the belts to come in the mail and another day getting them on. I was getting better at wrestling them on.)  I shifted over to water and pine-sol for a lubricant and I was sawing. Two days latter and no problems.

When I sawed with the TH all those years I could saw a thousand feet a 10 hour day by myself and never had problems with lubrication being Diesel fuel or any tracking problems. I got what I thought was good blade life out of four or more makes of blades, my best being Timber Wolf blades that I got about ten sharpenings out of. The fella that sharpened my blades told me that the little vibration that I had in my mill could be taken out by going to steel ground wheels and doing away with the belted wheels because they could be balanced and trued better and that I would probably get about 50% more sharpening out of my blades and they would probably saw faster because of it.

I was going to get around to switching over, but sold the mill and got out of the business before I got to it.  I am now going to make the switch on this mill because I'm a firm believer that he was right and it makes good sense.  If for no other reason than shaking the blade that much on the blade guides cannot be good for them. Any vibration on  a thin saw blade has to cause wear. The less wear and vibration the better the blade has to work.

If I'm wrong, at least I won't have to fight with anymore V-belts on band wheels again and they will probably run much smoother and truer. I figure at the rate of replacement I have had on his machine I'll save about five hundred dollars a year in belts figured at he rate I am sawing now. If I ever get back to my old rate that will more than double. I'll probably pay for the upgrade by the time I die since I'll only last few more years anyway and this years will be that much easier on my and more productive. My grandson will have a better mill. I may even make some money because of it.
TimberKing 2200

xlogger

To me I found out that all belts now are not near as thick as they where when I started. I took my wheels off my mill took them to machine shop and grind them down so more belt sticks up. It does help a little when putting on new belt. But even before I did this sometimes it took 5 minutes to put on a belt and others an 1/2 hour.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

ladylake

 I get along with belts good, cant understand how they only last 100 of 500 bf.  Mine last around 500+ hours most times and once in long tome one will get tore up b a broken band.  Most times about 10 to 15 minutes to get a new one on.  I also took metal off the outside of the wheel so these newer belts stand up..  Nothing wrong with putting crowned steel wheel on either but they need to be recrowned every so often.  
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Southside

It's interesting how tight some mills run their belts.  Changed mine on the 70 this week and it didn't take a minute to do both of them, took longer to walk over to the storage bin and grab them then walk to the other side of the mill to do the other side than removing the old ones or installing the new ones combined. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

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